Fonz
Smash Ace
Yep, certainly seems that way.
-
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Montage's List of Stage Bans!
- Thread starter dmbrandon
- Start date
Inui
Banned via Warnings
QFT
Stages with walls should not be banned. If we're so intent on keeping out broken strategies, just don't allow "infinite" wall stuff. Also, for stages like Jungle Japes where tether characters can't recover properly, just don't allow people to counterpick them against tether-only characters.
Ban the broken techniques, not the stages.
Firestorm88
Smash Lord
From what I've played and observed, these are my thoughts (read: first impressions) on the stages. 1v1, no items, final destionat-wait a second. Anyway, you get what I mean. It's like a prediction list. I am being pretty conservative about banning.
Neutral: 8
Counter-Pick: 19
Banned: 13
This doesn't add up to 41. What am I missing I can't figure it out.
Neutral
Pokemon Stadium - Melee stage. Windmill now cannot be passed through (I haven't hit it yet as I've only played Stadium twice, I wanted to try Brawl stages more >_>). Doesn't change much.
Smashville - Awesome stage. I really like this one. No hazards. Floating moving platform makes for some cool stuff that could potentially develop.
Yoshi's Island - Awesome art? >_> But seriously, it's really standard. There's that platform that comes up and goes down that reminds me of that evil cloud from Melee's Yoshi's Story stage.
Lylat Cruise - There are actually no hazards on this stage as far as I know. Seems neutral.
Frigate Orpheon - The stage flipping does almost nothing and the screeching alarm should be enough warning. Could be counter-pick.
Castle Siege - Three different formats through the match. So like Pokemon Stadium, you have the "no one character keeps the advantage the entire round" thing. As long as you stay prepared during the transitions, this stage is really neutral and fine. No stage hazards to speak of that I remember.
Battlefield - No Brainer
Final Destination - No Brainer
Counter-Pick
Delfino Plaza - no real stage hazard, set pattern I believe. Potentially neutral.
Mushroomy Kingdom - set pattern, do any characters get SEVERELY overpowered or underpowered on this stage? Walk off edges is =/ 1-2 is a bit less balanced IMO, might have to look at a ban for the stage in general. I'd say 1-2 would likely be banned at the least (go with no contest and start it again).
Rainbow Cruise - Melee stage. Was counter-pickable in Melee, neutral for a while which I disagreed with. I wouldn't say enough has changed to ban.
Mario Circuit - cars either come below or above at a set time interval and alternate. There's a TV in the background that even shows where the cars are currently. However, cars can do major damage unlike Mute City so we'll see. The layout of the stage in general just looks like it's going to make something broken.
Luigi's Mansion - I would call this stage neutral if it weren't for the fact that there's parts of the stage where the ceiling above cannot be gone through. It's a solid object. Still, nothing to ban over and a solid stage.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - Might require a ban. The stage hazards on this one are pretty **** bad. The electric stage has the conveyer belts with the person in the middle being close to unapproachable. The anti-gravity air one is murderous. The ice actually feels decent compared to the first two. Ground is fine. Requires testing. In no way neutral, but counter-pick or maybe banned.
Bridge of Eldin - Ok. I am very torn on this stage. When the middle is gone, some faster characters with fast projectiles (read: space animals) can very easily camp. However, that's gone soon. The edges are walk off =/ This doesn't seem that bad a stage but I dunno if I'd call it neutral.
Great Sea - I like this stage and feel it's really neutral, but there are some stage hazards. The bombs which you can see coming from the background do 35% per direct hit. They can be avoided and you can see them coming, but not sure how much trouble they'd cause. There's also the catapault but that is easily avoided. I believe they don't fire until a certain time after they come out. Depending on how severe people find canonball intereference, this stage could be banned. I have lost a match or two by getting hit by a canonball and then having my opponent combo that into a KO. Of course, I have really crappy peripheral vision it seems (friggin Onett ;_
Halberd - Aside from being home to the best music in the game, it's also home to lasers, bombs, and a tentacle monster. However, I've spent time on this stage and the laser is easy to avoid as it locks onto one person, then lets that person escape for a good second before hitting. No one has yet to be hit by it in a 1v1 in my group of friends. The bomb is similar, it's so slow moving you deserve to get hit if you do get hit by it. Tentacle thing does 10% and isn't much of a bother. I don't see this stage as anything worse than Brinstar in Melee. It's much better than it.
Green Greens - Melee stage. It wasn't banned in Melee although I thought of it as a pretty crappy stage. I don't think much has changed to ban it now.
Yoshi's Island Melee - I personally hate this stage. However, I think people's concensus is that it was banned in Melee due to Fox being his waveshing douche of a self with walk-off edges. This stage could be counter-pickable or banned. I guess it is fair in a way, but I honestly don't like this claustrophobic stage.
Corneria - Melee Stage. I found nothing wrong with it except for the occasional lasers in Melee, I find nothing wrong with it now. I guess Fox still has his wall infinite but I think it doesn't work for long anymore? Haven't looked into that too much. Seems to be a good counter-pick stage unless it appears Fox is too broken on it.
Onett - Melee stage. Controversial stage in Melee. It wasn't banned most of the time there so I don't see it being banned this time. Nothing's really changed. Depends on how Fox's infinite works this time around since I haven't followed that much.
Norfair - Looks horrible at first glance, but it's not THAT bad. I've heard reports you can jump over even the largest wave without going into the safespot.
Brinstar - Melee stage. Same as before. No changes. Stupid lava can be annoying but avoidable.
Green Hill Zone - This is one I'm not sure of. The resume point thingy that spins is annoying. Someone can camp near there and make it really hard for the opponent to approach. The stage seems a little small, the sides are not very far at all. Think it might be banned, might not.
Electroplankton - I thing this stage is fine. The platforms only change slightly when you or your opponent attack it. I have heard that tether recovery characters have some issue on this stage (so Olimar?). I think it's a good, solid stage though.
Pictochat - Another interesting stage that might or might not be banned. I lean towards not. There are some flames and spikes that sometimes get drawn, but that's about it and the hazard is in plain sight and not moving.
Skyworld - I hate this stage. That said, not sure if the reason I hate it warrants a ban. I don't like how you can't move up through the platforms. I really think anyone in the middle has a great advantage as your ways of approaching them are extremely limited.
Banned
Mario Bros. - No Brainer.
Spear Pillar - Sorry Dialga/Palkia/Cresselia. This is a very bad stage. You Cresselia's boomerang thingy that can easily KO flying around randomly when she's around. Palkia can invert controls, turn the stage upside down, and shoot Special Rend beam anywhere. You have Dialga who can slow down time and shoot Roar of Time anywhere. There's a cavern at the bottom which an opponent can go hide in and make approaching near impossible. Not a good stage. It's not even fun =[
Hyrule Temple - Melee Stage. Still banned. Nothing changed. I'm fairly sure Fox can still do his thing and they haven't changed that area at the bottom, although I'm not sure if that was part of the reason for the ban in the first place.
Rumble Falls - This is Icicle Mountain, less crappy, but Icicle Mountain nonetheless. I guess people could try and give it a go considering it always goes up, not down, but honestly I haven't played this one.
Jungle Japes - Melee Stage. This was a controversial counter-pick in Melee, but with the rapidly flowing water now getting the swim mechanic, this stage has been pushed over the line IMO.
72m (Donkey Kong) - This stage is horrible. Holy crap. There's no argument against it being banned so here's a fun tip for when you play it: Don't touch Donkey Kong he hurts >_>
Big Blue - Melee stage. Kill it with fire and take Crushed with it.
Port Town - This looks like a decent stage, but the problem I have with it is the cars. In Mute City, the cars could not kill. They'd damage and keep you in the air maybe, but not kill. Now, they seem to come out of nowhere and do enough knockback to KO. Not only that, they did it in a video I saw even though the player was on a platform.
New Pork City - Mele- wait a second this isn't Hyrule Temple. It's got a new skin! The stage seems even BIGGER than Hyrule Temple. There are certain characters I can see definitely abusing this to an amazing degree to stall out a match. The chimera in my opinion doesn't matter as that thing is so slow and gives so much warning you couldn't possibly get hit.
WarioWare - When I first started playing this I thought it was much better than I thought it would be. The problem is, every time you win a mini-game you get a prize - including Starman. If they took out the broken reward system I think this stage would have made a cool counter-pick, but with stars being handed out there's not much hope.
The Summit - From what I remember, this stage has some weird anti-gravity at times, the bottom edge can't be grabbed, and is slippery at most times. I guess it could be counter-pick but it seems like it'd be banned to me. I didn't like it too much but there's worse.
Distant Planet - Can't talk too much about it. This is really a first impression type thing. Good chance this could be counter-pick even. I just remember there being water on the left side. Can't remember if you can grab ledges. I only played it once. Need to play it more.
Flat Zone 2 - Just slightly less crappy than Flat Zone. The new random events that happen take up almost the entire area and just really screw with the game. Not fun and not good for competitive play either.
Neutral: 8
Counter-Pick: 19
Banned: 13
This doesn't add up to 41. What am I missing I can't figure it out.
Neutral
Pokemon Stadium - Melee stage. Windmill now cannot be passed through (I haven't hit it yet as I've only played Stadium twice, I wanted to try Brawl stages more >_>). Doesn't change much.
Smashville - Awesome stage. I really like this one. No hazards. Floating moving platform makes for some cool stuff that could potentially develop.
Yoshi's Island - Awesome art? >_> But seriously, it's really standard. There's that platform that comes up and goes down that reminds me of that evil cloud from Melee's Yoshi's Story stage.
Lylat Cruise - There are actually no hazards on this stage as far as I know. Seems neutral.
Frigate Orpheon - The stage flipping does almost nothing and the screeching alarm should be enough warning. Could be counter-pick.
Castle Siege - Three different formats through the match. So like Pokemon Stadium, you have the "no one character keeps the advantage the entire round" thing. As long as you stay prepared during the transitions, this stage is really neutral and fine. No stage hazards to speak of that I remember.
Battlefield - No Brainer
Final Destination - No Brainer
Counter-Pick
Delfino Plaza - no real stage hazard, set pattern I believe. Potentially neutral.
Mushroomy Kingdom - set pattern, do any characters get SEVERELY overpowered or underpowered on this stage? Walk off edges is =/ 1-2 is a bit less balanced IMO, might have to look at a ban for the stage in general. I'd say 1-2 would likely be banned at the least (go with no contest and start it again).
Rainbow Cruise - Melee stage. Was counter-pickable in Melee, neutral for a while which I disagreed with. I wouldn't say enough has changed to ban.
Mario Circuit - cars either come below or above at a set time interval and alternate. There's a TV in the background that even shows where the cars are currently. However, cars can do major damage unlike Mute City so we'll see. The layout of the stage in general just looks like it's going to make something broken.
Luigi's Mansion - I would call this stage neutral if it weren't for the fact that there's parts of the stage where the ceiling above cannot be gone through. It's a solid object. Still, nothing to ban over and a solid stage.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - Might require a ban. The stage hazards on this one are pretty **** bad. The electric stage has the conveyer belts with the person in the middle being close to unapproachable. The anti-gravity air one is murderous. The ice actually feels decent compared to the first two. Ground is fine. Requires testing. In no way neutral, but counter-pick or maybe banned.
Bridge of Eldin - Ok. I am very torn on this stage. When the middle is gone, some faster characters with fast projectiles (read: space animals) can very easily camp. However, that's gone soon. The edges are walk off =/ This doesn't seem that bad a stage but I dunno if I'd call it neutral.
Great Sea - I like this stage and feel it's really neutral, but there are some stage hazards. The bombs which you can see coming from the background do 35% per direct hit. They can be avoided and you can see them coming, but not sure how much trouble they'd cause. There's also the catapault but that is easily avoided. I believe they don't fire until a certain time after they come out. Depending on how severe people find canonball intereference, this stage could be banned. I have lost a match or two by getting hit by a canonball and then having my opponent combo that into a KO. Of course, I have really crappy peripheral vision it seems (friggin Onett ;_
Halberd - Aside from being home to the best music in the game, it's also home to lasers, bombs, and a tentacle monster. However, I've spent time on this stage and the laser is easy to avoid as it locks onto one person, then lets that person escape for a good second before hitting. No one has yet to be hit by it in a 1v1 in my group of friends. The bomb is similar, it's so slow moving you deserve to get hit if you do get hit by it. Tentacle thing does 10% and isn't much of a bother. I don't see this stage as anything worse than Brinstar in Melee. It's much better than it.
Green Greens - Melee stage. It wasn't banned in Melee although I thought of it as a pretty crappy stage. I don't think much has changed to ban it now.
Yoshi's Island Melee - I personally hate this stage. However, I think people's concensus is that it was banned in Melee due to Fox being his waveshing douche of a self with walk-off edges. This stage could be counter-pickable or banned. I guess it is fair in a way, but I honestly don't like this claustrophobic stage.
Corneria - Melee Stage. I found nothing wrong with it except for the occasional lasers in Melee, I find nothing wrong with it now. I guess Fox still has his wall infinite but I think it doesn't work for long anymore? Haven't looked into that too much. Seems to be a good counter-pick stage unless it appears Fox is too broken on it.
Onett - Melee stage. Controversial stage in Melee. It wasn't banned most of the time there so I don't see it being banned this time. Nothing's really changed. Depends on how Fox's infinite works this time around since I haven't followed that much.
Norfair - Looks horrible at first glance, but it's not THAT bad. I've heard reports you can jump over even the largest wave without going into the safespot.
Brinstar - Melee stage. Same as before. No changes. Stupid lava can be annoying but avoidable.
Green Hill Zone - This is one I'm not sure of. The resume point thingy that spins is annoying. Someone can camp near there and make it really hard for the opponent to approach. The stage seems a little small, the sides are not very far at all. Think it might be banned, might not.
Electroplankton - I thing this stage is fine. The platforms only change slightly when you or your opponent attack it. I have heard that tether recovery characters have some issue on this stage (so Olimar?). I think it's a good, solid stage though.
Pictochat - Another interesting stage that might or might not be banned. I lean towards not. There are some flames and spikes that sometimes get drawn, but that's about it and the hazard is in plain sight and not moving.
Skyworld - I hate this stage. That said, not sure if the reason I hate it warrants a ban. I don't like how you can't move up through the platforms. I really think anyone in the middle has a great advantage as your ways of approaching them are extremely limited.
Banned
Mario Bros. - No Brainer.
Spear Pillar - Sorry Dialga/Palkia/Cresselia. This is a very bad stage. You Cresselia's boomerang thingy that can easily KO flying around randomly when she's around. Palkia can invert controls, turn the stage upside down, and shoot Special Rend beam anywhere. You have Dialga who can slow down time and shoot Roar of Time anywhere. There's a cavern at the bottom which an opponent can go hide in and make approaching near impossible. Not a good stage. It's not even fun =[
Hyrule Temple - Melee Stage. Still banned. Nothing changed. I'm fairly sure Fox can still do his thing and they haven't changed that area at the bottom, although I'm not sure if that was part of the reason for the ban in the first place.
Rumble Falls - This is Icicle Mountain, less crappy, but Icicle Mountain nonetheless. I guess people could try and give it a go considering it always goes up, not down, but honestly I haven't played this one.
Jungle Japes - Melee Stage. This was a controversial counter-pick in Melee, but with the rapidly flowing water now getting the swim mechanic, this stage has been pushed over the line IMO.
72m (Donkey Kong) - This stage is horrible. Holy crap. There's no argument against it being banned so here's a fun tip for when you play it: Don't touch Donkey Kong he hurts >_>
Big Blue - Melee stage. Kill it with fire and take Crushed with it.
Port Town - This looks like a decent stage, but the problem I have with it is the cars. In Mute City, the cars could not kill. They'd damage and keep you in the air maybe, but not kill. Now, they seem to come out of nowhere and do enough knockback to KO. Not only that, they did it in a video I saw even though the player was on a platform.
New Pork City - Mele- wait a second this isn't Hyrule Temple. It's got a new skin! The stage seems even BIGGER than Hyrule Temple. There are certain characters I can see definitely abusing this to an amazing degree to stall out a match. The chimera in my opinion doesn't matter as that thing is so slow and gives so much warning you couldn't possibly get hit.
WarioWare - When I first started playing this I thought it was much better than I thought it would be. The problem is, every time you win a mini-game you get a prize - including Starman. If they took out the broken reward system I think this stage would have made a cool counter-pick, but with stars being handed out there's not much hope.
The Summit - From what I remember, this stage has some weird anti-gravity at times, the bottom edge can't be grabbed, and is slippery at most times. I guess it could be counter-pick but it seems like it'd be banned to me. I didn't like it too much but there's worse.
Distant Planet - Can't talk too much about it. This is really a first impression type thing. Good chance this could be counter-pick even. I just remember there being water on the left side. Can't remember if you can grab ledges. I only played it once. Need to play it more.
Flat Zone 2 - Just slightly less crappy than Flat Zone. The new random events that happen take up almost the entire area and just really screw with the game. Not fun and not good for competitive play either.
goodkid
Smash Lord
^^Firestorm
Sounds good.
Sounds good.
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
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- NNID
- bluefalcon27
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I dont know why Frigate Orpheon is NOT neutral, the flipping is so quick, and it doesnt truly affect the fight at all.
Seems perfectly fine to me.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Firestorm88
Smash Lord
Why? I honestly have not seen a problem with that stage. The stage flip is something I would compare to Pokemon Stadium's changes. Remember, Rainbow Cruise was an MLG neutral stage for a while. I definitely disagreed with that, but Frigate doesn't seem to be a crazy choice for neutral. Neither does Castle Siege really.
to all: The stage changes randomly, it's not scripted. The stage flip gimps.
ZMan
Smash Master
The thing about castle seige is walkf offs mean D3 ownage. So I dount it will be a neutral, but a counter possiblity.
Frigate Orpheon is neutral. It's basic, rarley to never flips, and when it does the siren sounds to alert you to jump and be safe
Halberd is a neutral because the hazards aren't frequent enough to warrent a counter.
Frigate Orpheon is neutral. It's basic, rarley to never flips, and when it does the siren sounds to alert you to jump and be safe
Halberd is a neutral because the hazards aren't frequent enough to warrent a counter.
to all: The stage changes randomly, it's not scripted. The stage flip gimps.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
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- Messages
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again:
Virtually every tactic DMBrandon has used as a reason to ban a stage does not really exist. The only true infinite out there so far is Falco's laser lock and Fox's shine, and even then that isn't for sure. D3's chain grab can be rolled out of, pika's jab infinite can be escaped easily, etc., etc.
Virtually every tactic DMBrandon has used as a reason to ban a stage does not really exist. The only true infinite out there so far is Falco's laser lock and Fox's shine, and even then that isn't for sure. D3's chain grab can be rolled out of, pika's jab infinite can be escaped easily, etc., etc.
First, why did you capitalize my name?
This post is untrue. Under certain circumstances, Rapid A combos are not escapable. If you have a teammate push you. If you have another wall to your back.
D3's chaingrab can only be rolled out by certain characters.
Fox's shine, from all evidence, is 0-death against a wall, guaranteed.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
A few characters cannot get out of the chain grab whatsoever. Some can't be chain grabbed, some can roll or dodge at some point, and some can't get out at all. Regardless, I think it's completely fine for team games. 1v1 i'm indifferent.
The only thing I don't like about Frigate Orpheon is that the stage flips at random times. If it always happened at the same time, I wouldn't mind it being a neutral stage.
We discussed Delfino being moved from neutral to counterpick, and I might have to agree. There's a lot of water and some walls to deal with, it's not as neutral as the other neutral stages.
I'm pretty okay with Halberd being neutral too, the hazards really seem to be a nonissue.
Walled stages would be fine in teams, because you'll have a partner to help you get out of infinites. Just some opinions.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
I will ask ITP again whether DDD's CG is escapable by all characters, last time he said it was escapable it sounded like he meant for every character.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Ban the technique, not the stage. D:
Cless
Smash Champion
It'd be kinda hard to regulate though. It's not like wobbling where you have to get grabbed and then hit in a very obvious pattern. Someone could just shine 3 or 4 times and let you go. Can you say that was an infinite?
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
dmbrandon, you say that Frigate Orpheon's stage flips happen at random times... but as far as I've seen/played myself, the stage flips are always indicated by a siren going off, which gives you more than enough time to simply jump up and avoid any deaths or "gimps". What about the stage don't you like?
Zenjamin
Smash Lord
its inescapable if you can predict which way the charcter is going to go. But that is much harder to do for DDD then say a melee CG with ganon.
this is because in conventional CGs, you can wait a couple of frames to read the other guys DI.
but with a DDD CG, if the charcter is holding down the sheild button when they are grabbed, they can of the first frame, tech in place, tech roll towards DDD, or tech roll away.
just like in a conventional CG, DDD can continue the CG for each of those three options with a prolonged dashCG, a normal CG, or staying in place waiting for the other guy to roll into you.
but unlike a conventional CG, you can not read what they are going to do as they do it on the first frame. so you have to either predict patterns if you have played them before, or just get lucky.
hope that helped.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
So this goes for all characters? In that case, DDD's CG is just one big tech chase, I guess. And tech chasing is for sure not inescapable, or broken on wall/walk off stages, for that matter.
Fonz
Smash Ace
This is one of the worst arguments I've read for banning something in a while. It may be along the lines of that banning all items thread due to the laser gun spam kill.. Talk about situational, and even IF this was a big deal, I'm not sure it is possible. I finally got a chance to play brawl for hours a few nights ago and most of the rapid jabs seem to have pretty decent range. Most of them would hit a player so far on top of them that they were actively pushing them. Secondly, this is no more important that grab/jab infinites in melee, and nobody gave two ****s about them.
You list pokemon stadium 1 as a potential for banning due to it's stage transformations that sometimes contain walls but make no mention of rainbow cruise. Rainbow cruise's wall on the ship is there for quite some time at the start. There is also a wall near the end of the rotation just before you drop back down again. I don't think either stage should be banned, but you should be consistent.
At this point you just seem to have some personal hatred for all things involving a wall. Although this is your thread you have not replied to anyone's questions about banning techniques not stages. Seems to me that you have no answer. It is clear that your list won't have any influence at this point, but people were trying to give you a chance to explain your reasoning, and you haven't.
About frigate orpheon, do you guys play with the sound off? As others have posted the alarm is a pretty good indicator of what the stage flip will happen. I think your true motivation for banning Frigate Orpheon is when the platforms move there are temporary walls on the side of the middle platform! (joke)
X-x-Dyce-x-X
Smash Master
D1
Banned via Administration
The only problem I have w/ Frigate Orpheon is that when the stage starts off certain chars who get knocked off far can't even sweetspot/grab the edge. They just fall through...only chars w/ insane UpBs can always return. Another gay part about the stage is that I was standing in the middle of the stage before it transformed...siren went off I stoood completely still...somehow after the stage flipped I ended up UNDERNEATH THE STAGE!
I wish I recorded it X_x b/c I was soooo ****ed pissed at the prospect of that happening to me in a tourney match after paying a **** 20 dollar entry fee...to have to lose on my last stock b/c of a stage gimp.
Thats just TOO hard to swallow.
On another note: In NYC I'm having trouble w/ a couple smashers (minor amount but these smashers are pretty well known around the world I won't say no names yet) who say that Spear Pillar should be allowed in tourney.
Do any of you guys really think Spear Pillar is playable? I mean if the Pokemon that don't flip the stage around and/or your controls doesn't appear (Palkia) then you're safe...but can you really count on who's gonna come out and who isn't?
The stage is multitiered (max 2 floors) it can allow ppl to camp when there are no hazards in sight. Also most of the annoying hazards are downright inescapable at times...Dialga can come to the forefront and kill you, there are mega huge beams that can come and wreck your sh**...even if you tech the beam blast at the bottom of the stage...you'll take an immense amount of damage. Cresselia's homing Psycho Cut BS never stops shooting. Its just too many hazards to juggle while playing a tourney match.
PLUS there's slow-mo...who'd wanna deal w/ slow-motion as a tourney director when you're trying to run a tournament quickly and effectilvely before the venue closes? This stage is just another one to throw in the garbage bin.
Back to topic: Frigate Orpheon should be a counterpick...just cuz certain chars are at disadvantage when knocked off the right side pre-stage flip.
I wish I recorded it X_x b/c I was soooo ****ed pissed at the prospect of that happening to me in a tourney match after paying a **** 20 dollar entry fee...to have to lose on my last stock b/c of a stage gimp.
Thats just TOO hard to swallow.
On another note: In NYC I'm having trouble w/ a couple smashers (minor amount but these smashers are pretty well known around the world I won't say no names yet) who say that Spear Pillar should be allowed in tourney.
Do any of you guys really think Spear Pillar is playable? I mean if the Pokemon that don't flip the stage around and/or your controls doesn't appear (Palkia) then you're safe...but can you really count on who's gonna come out and who isn't?
The stage is multitiered (max 2 floors) it can allow ppl to camp when there are no hazards in sight. Also most of the annoying hazards are downright inescapable at times...Dialga can come to the forefront and kill you, there are mega huge beams that can come and wreck your sh**...even if you tech the beam blast at the bottom of the stage...you'll take an immense amount of damage. Cresselia's homing Psycho Cut BS never stops shooting. Its just too many hazards to juggle while playing a tourney match.
PLUS there's slow-mo...who'd wanna deal w/ slow-motion as a tourney director when you're trying to run a tournament quickly and effectilvely before the venue closes? This stage is just another one to throw in the garbage bin.
Back to topic: Frigate Orpheon should be a counterpick...just cuz certain chars are at disadvantage when knocked off the right side pre-stage flip.
Dubyah8r
Smash Journeyman
I understand why it is banned and I realize that it was an unfair stage, but in Melee I really like to play in Flat Zone. Whenever I was just playing for fun it was one of my favorite stages. My friends actually had to stop letting me pick stages because I always picked flat zone. I understand why it is banned but please, don't hate on the zone.
I love the stage, but I doubt it's neutral. The siren goes off, yes SP, but it isn't scripted. Sometimes the stage will flip and the side will hit a person, and catch them underneath.
We're taking delfino off of random as well. The fact is, any stage that alters the way you have to play the game for any character in a moderate way should not be neutral.
In Melee, this would immediately rule out FoD, Yoshi's Story, and Pokémon Stadium as neutrals. With some logic you could argue that FD makes you have to play differently as well because it's the only stage without platforms above you to work with. And Battlefield kind of hurts grapple recoveries because you have to either go for a sweetspot or move farther horizontally to get to the wall. Dream Land 64 has wind.
So, I guess there's no real neutral stages in Melee. : \
These are minor distractions. Why would it rule out the first three, exactly?
MysticKenji
Smash Master
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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I agree with this man 100%
It isn't like Poke Floats or Rainbow Cruise where the change happens at a nice slow pace. When the siren sounds on FO, you have about two seconds to get to a good spot. This is not always able to be done. Sometimes you're trying to recover, or you're being edge guarded, or you're doing off stage edge guarding, making it impossible to get to a better position by the time the random flip happens.
Simply jumping up will not save you, depending on where you are. I've seen people get star K.O'd by the stage flip. You have much less time to react to the stage, than you do on RC and PF and it occurs completely randomly. Like D1 said, preflip, the right side of the stage can't be edge grabbed either, which is also a big deal.
This is clearly an attempt to argue without reason. You're trying to prove a point that has no actual relevance other than 'put dm on the spot.'
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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Wario Ware needs to be debanned because the Ashley theme song is amazing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kwxkJus-pPQ&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kwxkJus-pPQ&feature=related
joenopride
Smash Journeyman
I think the point is valid. Depending on circumstance, someone could be knocked off the edge of Yoshi's Story and not be able to reach the edge, but luckily, they got hit off at a time when the cloud would return and land beneath them. Or the reverse, someone's return or ledgestall is gimped because the cloud appears at the wrong time.
Edit: One thing I just realized that is worth mentioning is that those scenarios aren't as likely to be a gimp kill. So there is a point for FG having a more severe penalty then the previously mentioned neutral stages.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
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The cloud isn't random.
joenopride
Smash Journeyman
It isn't random, but it's hard to argue that in a match a player will choose when they get launched off the side of the stage, or when they will launch their opponent. I have enough trouble following the cycles of the cloud with the music alone, never mind while I'm fighting a difficult battle!
Halo teams time power up respawns, weapon respawns, and player respawns. There's no reason a smash player couldn't use scripted events to their advantage.
Isn't the idea of a "neutral stage" one that is more or less an even playing field for all characters? Not necessarily that there are not alterations to playstyle on the stage, but that those alterations don't give a big advantage to someone.
I'm just curious as to the reasoning, since I haven't had the experience there. What characters does Delfino favor significantly enough to warrant non-neutral status?
Drephen
Smash Master
go back to playing halo you seem to be much better at it
Firestorm88
Smash Lord
Ok. I can see reasons for why Frigate should be counter-pickable now.