Montage's List of Stage Bans!

[mindlesstom]

El oh el. The only reason he brings up the Back Room thing is because people that are in the backroom have proven themselves as people who are not only good at Melee, but can judge what is and isn't fair with an intelligent and open mind, among other things. We're all people who have taken the time to show that we have what it takes to try to make the game as fair and balanced as possible. Montage, however, has just come into these forums claiming that they're the best evar because "ZOMG WE PLAYED FOR 80 HOURS IN MY BASEMENT WE HAVE MASTERED ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME."

Really, do you get why someone like Overswarm is in the back room while you're not? It's because he takes the time to analyze things fairly while you all just come in and shout WE HAVE THE GAME AND PLAYTIME BAN BAN BAN. And for all of your extensive playtesting, you certainly don't know much. Take this, for instance:

At one point, you'll have to take shelter under a small, metroid-esque tenty thing. You have to fight to keep people out, in hopes to gain a stock advantage. In teams, there's not enough room for two people to be under, and one attack to keep the others out. You'll kill your teammates much too much. IMO it's a fair singles stage, because that lava wave will only happen every 3-4minutes.

Have you ever even played this stage?? The shelter is pointless, you can jump and dodge the lava with barely any effort at all. You can even grab a ledge and avoid the lava with extreme ease. You would think after all your testing you would have found this.

If you want to help the Brawl community, fine. But coming in here and acting like you're the Gods of Brawl because you've played it a lot doesn't do anything. If you'd get your heads out of your ***** and actually listen to the intelligent posters in this swarm like Overswarm, Hyuga, Hugs, and others, you'd realize this. You can't possibly grasp every aspect of what's broken and what's not in this game after playing it for less than a month. The only way to do this is to see how everything works out in tournament play over longer periods of time. If you guys want to help, fine, a topic with opinions like this is great. But until you're actually willing to listen to suggestions and acknowledge that you don't understand everything, all of your points are moot.

Then, I guess all tourns will just wing the first few months before the SBR get **** done? Look at how long it's taken to make a decision on GGs. The fact is, some of us want to play competitively now, not in a year, hence us making this thread. Granted, our views may be a little off, but hell, we've only been playing it a short while. I don't see you guys making threads like this, and informing the community of what stages seem worthy, you're all too focused on trying to bash other people.

No, we get it, you're popular.

Please. Give us a **** break. What we've done here is helpful, unlike your posting. You're just trying to play favorites, and make friends. good for you.

We've taken a lot of suggestions. God forbid we don't respond to every post, or check every little thing. It's not our fault, we're only 5 people. But hell, I think we did a **** good job. We have taken every thing into account, whether we liked it or not, which is more than I can say for the gist of the posts in this thread.

Overall, we made a fair list, and will use it in our tourns, until the COMMUNITY finds a better way to do things.

Don't like it? Don't go.

 

[Fonz]

Nobody has answered the several questions by myself and other posters about banning wall infinites instead of wall stages? What's the reasoning?

 

[Turbo Ether]

El oh el. The only reason he brings up the Back Room thing is because people that are in the backroom have proven themselves as people who are not only good at Melee, but can judge what is and isn't fair with an intelligent and open mind, among other things. We're all people who have taken the time to show that we have what it takes to try to make the game as fair and balanced as possible. Montage, however, has just come into these forums claiming that they're the best evar because "ZOMG WE PLAYED FOR 80 HOURS IN MY BASEMENT WE HAVE MASTERED ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME."

Really, do you get why someone like Overswarm is in the back room while you're not? It's because he takes the time to analyze things fairly while you all just come in and shout WE HAVE THE GAME AND PLAYTIME BAN BAN BAN. And for all of your extensive playtesting, you certainly don't know much. Take this, for instance:

At one point, you'll have to take shelter under a small, metroid-esque tenty thing. You have to fight to keep people out, in hopes to gain a stock advantage. In teams, there's not enough room for two people to be under, and one attack to keep the others out. You'll kill your teammates much too much. IMO it's a fair singles stage, because that lava wave will only happen every 3-4minutes.

Have you ever even played this stage?? The shelter is pointless, you can jump and dodge the lava with barely any effort at all. You can even grab a ledge and avoid the lava with extreme ease. You would think after all your testing you would have found this.

If you want to help the Brawl community, fine. But coming in here and acting like you're the Gods of Brawl because you've played it a lot doesn't do anything. If you'd get your heads out of your ***** and actually listen to the intelligent posters in this swarm like Overswarm, Hyuga, Hugs, and others, you'd realize this. You can't possibly grasp every aspect of what's broken and what's not in this game after playing it for less than a month. The only way to do this is to see how everything works out in tournament play over longer periods of time. If you guys want to help, fine, a topic with opinions like this is great. But until you're actually willing to listen to suggestions and acknowledge that you don't understand everything, all of your points are moot.

I guess you were offended by Dmbrandon's approach? Newsflash, Dmbrandon didn't make this thread, posting "THIS IS THE FINAL COMPETITIVE STAGE LIST FOR BRAWL EVER, YOU'RE AUTOMATICALLY WRONG IF YOU DISAGREE". Yet you're in here posting as if that was said.

You expect people to sit around and wait for the backroom to tell us what's fair and what's not while people are trying to play Brawl competitively ASAP? People don't have time for that. Money is on the line right now, we're not gonna put competitive Brawl on hold for six months while you get your **** together.

So we're all here discussing what stages are legit for tourney play for RIGHT NOW. There are no official rules, so we have to wing it until some solid decisions are made by the community. Obviously everything is based on several people's opinions.

The point of the thread was to share opinions and collect feedback, in order to make early Brawl tournaments as fair and balanced as possible. Stop being offended by the fact that not everyone is waiting to be babysat by the backroom. This is not a final list, opinions are obviously subject to change. Calm down.

Montage, however, has just come into these forums claiming that they're the best evar because "ZOMG WE PLAYED FOR 80 HOURS IN MY BASEMENT WE HAVE MASTERED ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME."

And I have to requote this for the epic display of poor reading comprehension and ignorance. Lol.

 

[mindlesstom]

Nobody has answered the several questions by myself and other posters about banning wall infinites instead of wall stages? What's the reasoning?

Personally, I was offended by the banning of wobbles. I'm no IC main, but if you get it, you deserve it. Look at PC vs M2k at pound. How fast that was. IMO, if you can wobble Mango, he deserves to get it.

Case in point: Take the stages away. That doesn't change characters, only their ability to be broken.

You don't see people Banning Balrog in Super Turbo for chain grabbing. You don't see people banning Storm and Sentinel for being too quick...

All in all, it'll take more than a few weeks to make such a major decision for all major circuit events, but Montage's vote is on the stage ban side.

 

[Firestorm88]

What the hell? You guys want to play competitive Brawl "right now"? That is ****ing BS. A competitive ruleset is not ironed out within a month of an overseas release. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl did not have a Tier List until about half a year later. Diamond/Pearl did not have a finished ban list for a while, and even now some are under debate.

Want a game that's reached its peak in competitive play? Play something else. Brawl will take time to get to the level where we have a full list of what's fair and what's not.

Anyway, I disagree with a few things on the first post and agree with others. Pokemon Stadium SSBM shouldn't even be under dispute at this point. It's a neutral stage and should be on random select. I haven't seen anything discovered that could make it broken, and it was one of the fairest stages in Melee.

I actually forgot there was a Stage board on SmashBoards so I'll look around, but what do people think of the Windwaker Stage? I really like it but the canonballs seem fairly overpowered. I was Toon Link, got hit by a direct shot twice, took 35% from each. I think I just sucked so I'll have to do further testing on the stage to see how interfering and/or random they are.

 

[mindlesstom]

What the hell? You guys want to play competitive Brawl "right now"? That is ****ing BS. A competitive ruleset is not ironed out within a month of an overseas release. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl did not have a Tier List until about half a year later. Diamond/Pearl did not have a finished ban list for a while, and even now some are under debate.

Want a game that's reached its peak in competitive play? Play something else. Brawl will take time to get to the level where we have a full list of what's fair and what's not.

Anyway, I disagree with a few things on the first post and agree with others. Pokemon Stadium SSBM shouldn't even be under dispute at this point. It's a neutral stage and should be on random select. I haven't seen anything discovered that could make it broken, and it was one of the fairest stages in Melee.

I actually forgot there was a Stage board on SmashBoards so I'll look around, but what do people think of the Windwaker Stage? I really like it but the canonballs seem fairly overpowered. I was Toon Link, got hit by a direct shot twice, took 35% from each. I think I just sucked so I'll have to do further testing on the stage to see how interfering and/or random they are.

What I want is bull****? Maybe that's why I didn't get that bike for my 13th birthday.

People don't go to competitive pokemon tournaments 3 weekends a month.

You can't make a claim on Kanto, if you don't have any reasons. This post was not helpful at all.

As for the Great Sea, the cannonballs don't play a major effect in outcomes, imo.

 

[Joshu]

Because Montage people have never, ever, in the history of smashboards posts, claimed that their large amount of gameplay dictates that they know how the game works. Oh wait.

"And I have to requote this for the epic display of poor reading comprehension and ignorance. Lol."

Lawl, right back at ya kiddo.


And it's not like Dmbrandon came into our character impression thread and said we were completely wrong because it wasn't the same as his, lawl, oh well, blind leading the blind and such.

 

[Firestorm88]

What I want is bull****? Maybe that's why I didn't get that bike for my 13th birthday.

People don't go to competitive pokemon tournaments 3 weekends a month.

You can't make a claim on Kanto, if you don't have any reasons. This post was not helpful at all.

As for the Great Sea, the cannonballs don't play a major effect in outcomes, imo.

I don't see how my post had anything to do with you not getting your bike on your birthday this year. Getting a bike has nothing to do with competitive gaming.

No, they don't do it 3 weekends a month. They use a battle simulator to have what you would consider smashfests, every single day. Using the competitive rules available at the time. There are, at the moment, 6 tournaments held by the leading competitive Pokemon site (call it the equivalent of SmashBoards if you want) including the annual event (compare it to MLG or EVO Nationals).

What do you mean about Kanto? My point is, nothing has changed from Melee that would ban the stage. The OP's argument is that Fox has an infinite on walls, like he did in Melee, therefore it should be banned. Hell, he even says there was talk of wanting to ban it in Melee, which there wasn't. In fact, Stadium was one of the 6 most neutral stages in Melee. It's still one of the most neutral stages in Brawl. It should be on Random Select.

Yes. I've played Brawl.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Nobody has answered the several questions by myself and other posters about banning wall infinites instead of wall stages? What's the reasoning?

There was no reasoning shown. A clear example of this being already done in Smash rulesets is Peach's Wallbombing being possible as a stall tactic on Fountain of Dreams and Pokemon Stadium in Melee. We just put a limit/banned the tactic itself and called it a day, there was no need for ban those levels.

The same selective banning could very easily be done for these wall "infinites," and only 2 of which I would even go as far to even call an infinite (Fox's and possibly Pikachu's). The others aren't infinites, get out of the n00b phase and just Smash DI out of them like normal people and stop getting pinned against the walls which allows them to happen in the first place. It's been a situation that has always been an unfavorable one since the dawn of combat and that alone should not be a cause for banning anything unless you can shove someone against a wall from any part of the level like Melee Fox and Brawl Falco.

Here is the primary reason why I can't take much of this thread seriously. It was made with absolutely zero respect with previous Smash rulesets, by people who weren't even blips on the tournament Melee radar, and these same people (cough, diem) are using circumstantial or subjective arguments based on either completely hypothetical/impossible scenarios or casual settings to force people such as myself to sway towards their cause. At the same time, I'm sighting convenient avoidance of completely reasonable concerns or workarounds with little to no sensible rebuttal. I see this less as a subtle suggestion as to what stages are going to be banned in competitive play and more of an outright insult to my intelligence and entire Smash career. And the posts that have been made by Montage addressing the counter arguments for these stage bans have displayed little actual reasoning that is either not subjective, or disrespectful of the universal Smash experience and even other Smashers. Diem himself has already outright ridiculed other members for disagreeing with his views, like in a certain character impression thread, and even in this one.

Other rant-
If you're going to use me as a guinea pig, which you have already, then you should probably give me as much time as you've had with the game first, or given me some reason to take the gloves off, or otherwise "unpique" my curiosity about said infinites being possible. I wasn't aware that my first hour of Brawl would entail me being judged for my competitive ability at it. I know you (diem) were eating this victory up, because I happen to have excellent hearing.

You can go ahead and live it up. Let's pop in Smash 64 one of these days. With my Melee superiority and your apparent Brawl superiority, it should come out to be a good match... right? Oh wait, this makes no sense, either. Or even give Brawl a little bit of time on US shores. We'll see exactly what happens to your credibility and skill advantage.

I apologize if it appears as though I'm verbally assaulting all of Montage. This is not the case, as I'm aware that at least some of you know when to shut up and see the big picture.

Personally, I was offended by the banning of wobbles. I'm no IC main, but if you get it, you deserve it. Look at PC vs M2k at pound. How fast that was. IMO, if you can wobble Mango, he deserves to get it.

Case in point: Take the stages away. That doesn't change characters, only their ability to be broken.

You don't see people Banning Balrog in Super Turbo for chain grabbing. You don't see people banning Storm and Sentinel for being too quick...

All in all, it'll take more than a few weeks to make such a major decision for all major circuit events, but Montage's vote is on the stage ban side.

-Also, I would like to add that being AGAINST the banning of Wobbling (which, as KishPrime corrected, was NEVER blanket banned) because "it was deserved if you set up the Wobble" and being FOR the outright banning of walled stages because of these "infinites" is the double standard defined. If you counterpick a wall stage, pick a character with an "infinite" and do all the work and set up required to get your all-too-knowing foe against the wall and stuck in such an infinite, how is that not also deserved like a Wobble? Because it's too easy to do once you're in? That's only an arbitrary reason in itself. The difficult part of these "infinites" in Melee wasn't the execution, which any self-respecting main of these characters was able to do with ease, it was getting them into the situation.

I'm seeing very little sense in this thread. If it does not shape up quickly, actually addressing the concerns of the other members posting in this thread, it will be shut down until the day after the US release.

 

[KishPrime]

By the way, the Wobbles was approved as a legit, non-broken tactic by the Back Room, and was never banned at FC. Just wanted to make sure people actually know that.

 

[brawlpro]

See I knew that but never understood it, what was so non broken about wobbling? Just to clear it up.

 

[thesage]

By the way, the Wobbles was approved as a legit, non-broken tactic by the Back Room, and was never banned at FC. Just wanted to make sure people actually know that.

But it was banned at Pound 3 >.>

It's like how the wc bans certain stages that the ec has as couterpick and vise versa.

I personally don't think wobbling is broken cuz Nana has to cooperate with Popo to do it, and well sometimes.... she just doesn't wanna do that....

 

[Fonz]

Any tourney runner can ban anything they want, if it is something popular enough it could effect attendance though. Wobbles banning was probably 50-50 in 2007.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't see how my post had anything to do with you not getting your bike on your birthday this year. Getting a bike has nothing to do with competitive gaming.

No, they don't do it 3 weekends a month. They use a battle simulator to have what you would consider smashfests, every single day. Using the competitive rules available at the time. There are, at the moment, 6 tournaments held by the leading competitive Pokemon site (call it the equivalent of SmashBoards if you want) including the annual event (compare it to MLG or EVO Nationals).

What do you mean about Kanto? My point is, nothing has changed from Melee that would ban the stage. The OP's argument is that Fox has an infinite on walls, like he did in Melee, therefore it should be banned. Hell, he even says there was talk of wanting to ban it in Melee, which there wasn't. In fact, Stadium was one of the 6 most neutral stages in Melee. It's still one of the most neutral stages in Brawl. It should be on Random Select.

Yes. I've played Brawl.

The main difference between the new old Pokemon Stadium and the old one is the fact that you can no longer pass through the windmill. That obviously makes it more disruptive. As far as neutral or counterpick? It's hard to say imo. It's up to the tournament organizer until the community makes an official decision.

 

[dmbrandon]

By the way, the Wobbles was approved as a legit, non-broken tactic by the Back Room, and was never banned at FC. Just wanted to make sure people actually know that.

I didn't know that!! Much props to the ship!

Any tourney runner can ban anything they want, if it is something popular enough it could effect attendance though. Wobbles banning was probably 50-50 in 2007.

Perhaps the tournament host could elect a small committee of dedicated players to run a vote of the questionable content before the tournament date. This could solve things, albeit cause more drama. We should test this.

The main difference between the new old Pokemon Stadium and the old one is the fact that you can no longer pass through the windmill. That obviously makes it more disruptive. As far as neutral or counterpick? It's hard to say imo. It's up to the tournament organizer until the community makes an official decision.

I choose delfino. This isn't a biased opinion, as I'm sure the rest of montage could express my distaste for the stage.

@RY: If you're going to attack me, at least have the tact to do in private. It's called being an adult. (Hypocricy, yes.) You don't know what was said, but I'd be more than happy to screen shot / forward the letter. I'm not entirely sure all parties would be happy, though.

Open invite to the first tourn by Montage in over a year, kids! In the sig! :D

 

[Firestorm88]

The main difference between the new old Pokemon Stadium and the old one is the fact that you can no longer pass through the windmill. That obviously makes it more disruptive. As far as neutral or counterpick? It's hard to say imo. It's up to the tournament organizer until the community makes an official decision.

I see. What exactly makes it much more disruptive though? For example, what character matchups have you seen issues with. What were these issues? The first post really isn't descriptive enough with some of the stage bans.

I choose delfino. This isn't a biased opinion, as I'm sure the rest of montage could express my distaste for the stage.

Um, you do realize there's usually more than one stage in the neutral random select right?

 

[Turbo Ether]

I see. What exactly makes it much more disruptive though? For example, what character matchups have you seen issues with. What were these issues? The first post really isn't descriptive enough with some of the stage bans.

The windmill can be used to camp and stall by faster characters until a field change occurs. A Bowser, Dedede, Ganondorf wouldn't be able to catch Fox, Falcon or other fast characters. The windmill phase is temporary though, so it's not a huge deal. Imo, the stage is fair, but i'm undecided in what I think about the neutral/counterpick status.

 

[RenX]

Plz dont Flame me for this i dont want to read all the Page posts to find out if this was asked or not Ok for hyrule temple i know why its banned but Seriously if someone is running away for 7 mins why not just kick them out the torn? why ban a level when something like that can be resolved if they run away for mins at a time its going to be obvious just make them stop or kick from the torn? is it not possible plz disscuss
EXCUSE MY HORRIBLE GRAMMER AND SPELLING

 

[Lord Knight]

Jab infinites don't exist, wall stages should not be banned.

CG by Dedede is also escapable.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

You expect people to sit around and wait for the backroom to tell us what's fair and what's not while people are trying to play Brawl competitively ASAP? People don't have time for that. Money is on the line right now, we're not gonna put competitive Brawl on hold for six months while you get your **** together.

God, CALM DOWN. There is so much to be said about this paragraph, but it couldn't have been said better than Firestorm here:

What the hell? You guys want to play competitive Brawl "right now"? That is ****ing BS. A competitive ruleset is not ironed out within a month of an overseas release. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl did not have a Tier List until about half a year later. Diamond/Pearl did not have a finished ban list for a while, and even now some are under debate.

Want a game that's reached its peak in competitive play? Play something else. Brawl will take time to get to the level where we have a full list of what's fair and what's not.

To think that we have an idea of what "Competitive Brawl" is "supposed" to be is insanely naive. People are so hung up on establishing the "right rules" right away that they can't be bothered to open up their myopic little eyes and realize that there is nothing to be gained by banning a bunch of stuff when there can't possibly be enough evidence, and there is everything to be gained by simply letting the whole country have a shot at holding a few tourneys where we will get hundreds or thousands times as much evidence in the month that follows the US release than this interim month between releases.

If you're worried about your "money on the line right now," your best bet is to follow Firestorm's advice and not play a game that's as green as Brawl.

Plz dont Flame me for this i dont want to read all the Page posts to find out if this was asked or not Ok for hyrule temple i know why its banned but Seriously if someone is running away for 7 mins why not just kick them out the torn? why ban a level when something like that can be resolved if they run away for mins at a time its going to be obvious just make them stop or kick from the torn? is it not possible plz disscuss
EXCUSE MY HORRIBLE GRAMMER AND SPELLING

RenX, there are threads elsewhere that explain Melee stage bans, I'll explain Temple but if you have any more questions check out the Melee Discusssion forum and see if you can find anything. Alright, so why not ban someone if they just run away for 7 minutes? Well, then they'll run away for 6:59, attack once, and then run again. If you make the limit 1 min, then people will run away for 0:59, do one attack, and run again. People play in tournaments to win matches, bottom line, so if running is the best tactic you can bet it will be exploited as much as possible. Any time limit you put on 'camping' or 'running away' is completely arbitrary, plus, how do you define 'running away' anyways? How can you be sure of the exact line where just playing defensively (which I'm sure you'd agree is a necessary part of the game) becomes running away? It's simply an unenforceable thing to ban. Hyrule definitely has other problems beyond that. Even if we were somehow able to force people not to run away, matches on Hyrule degenerate into who is better at surviving the Cave of Eternal Life (that little area in the middle where you're almost totally surrounded by walls). Now, there's nothing WRONG with that, in and of itself, in fact it's fun sometimes when you're messing around, but playing in there is so much different than playing on almost every other stage, that it's practically a different game. This is what is meant when people say they ban things because it "changes the game." I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[Turbo Ether]

God, CALM DOWN. There is so much to be said about this paragraph, but it couldn't have been said better than Firestorm here

Fair enough. I did kinda snap at the guy and it wasn't called for. Sorry about that.

I think there's a lot of concern about preventing any foul play before it even gets a chance to affect tourney matches in the first place. Tourney play is the best way to determine what's balanced, but at the same time, experimenting with questionable/bad/imbalanced rule sets, stages, and tactics is a surefire way to cause discrepancy amongst tourney-goers.

People don't like to be guinea pigs when money is on the line, and obviously cash prizes will be awarded before an official rule-set is established, because tournaments are required to establish said official rule-sets in the first place. Time will tell I guess, but for this early tournament we're trying to keep things as fair as possible.

 

[RenX]

I understand and disregarding my lack of posts i am a decent torn player ive played some of the best Captain jack, king, Germ, ect ect its just i never really understood that ban with the running crap i think its just lame

 

[Firestorm88]

The windmill can be used to camp and stall by faster characters until a field change occurs. A Bowser, Dedede, Ganondorf wouldn't be able to catch Fox, Falcon or other fast characters. The windmill phase is temporary though, so it's not a huge deal. Imo, the stage is fair, but i'm undecided in what I think about the neutral/counterpick status.

But that's really not any different from some of the changes in the old Stadium. I mean, it was a neutral stage and worked pretty well as a neutral stage in a game where Fox had his drillshine infinite. Since, as you mentioned, the windmill phase is temporary, I honestly don't think it poses a problem. I still love the idea of it not giving any one character an advantage for the entire match like Final Destination and Battlefield do.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Right, but some characters caught off guard could SD when the level rises!

I don't really know if I want to respond to this one sarcasticly or not. It's half a valid point, half not. Ah well.

Here's the totally new and true tourney rule: The stage is banned, UNLESS it has really awesome music to fight to.

Summit has Shin Onigashima, it's clear to fight on.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

I think that we can afford to ban the stages you suggested in Brawl. I counted and even with all of them removed including Pokemon Stadium and The Summit we have 26 non-banned stages compared with Melee's 17. An improvement of only 9 stages is more than acceptable in order to ensure fair, balanced games based on skill.

 

[Anarchist_Chase]

They should have custom stages made specifically for competitions.

 

[SonicSmash001]

Am I the only one that likes Rumble Falls (not 'Rapid Falls')? I saw some videos of it, and the background visuals are pretty amazing.

On another note, I'm glad I'm not that competitive. The reasons for banning some stages are...dumb.

yeah, competitive is pretty much outlawing fun

then again what do i know

 

[dmbrandon]

They should have custom stages made specifically for competitions.

In a perfect world.

yeah, competitive is pretty much outlawing fun

then again what do i know

Competitive is pretty much paying the bills, son.

 

[mathos]

Some people find competition fun.

 

[mathos]

zomg double post winzies

 

[dmbrandon]

Some people find competition fun.

Some people get mad at mathos for camping! :D!!!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

with the ease and effectiveness of Dedede's chainthrow... you'd think all stages with unsloped walkoff edges would be banned.

Stadium wasn't banned in melee so I doubt it will be banned now... even if all the changes they made to the windmill werre COMPLETELY STUPID.

Also, corneria and onett weren't banned in melee, and have recieved few changes.


other than that, I tend to agree

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Dedede's chainthrow is escapable with the correct timing...unlike Sheik's Melee cg D:

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dedede's chainthrow is escapable with the correct timing...unlike Sheik's Melee cg D:

well... I know he can't do it to all characters (like olimar and zelda) but I thought if he COULD do it to you, you were hopeless. are you SURE that the characters escaping it aren't just on the list of characters that it doesn't work on?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

There is a three-frame window after each throw where you can roll, spotdodge, jump, jab etc (more experienced brawlers correct me if I'm wrong...)

I know it doesn't work on lightweights at all, they don't slide after the throw (yay G&W!)

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

There is a three-frame window after each throw where you can roll, spotdodge, jump, jab etc (more experienced brawlers correct me if I'm wrong...)

I know it doesn't work on lightweights at all, they don't slide after the throw (yay G&W!)

I was under the impression that it's more than three frames (where are we even getting frame data from? Mew2king?), but it's def. escapable.

In fact, 3 frames seems very unlikely because rolls became invincible on frame 3 in melee (dunno about brawl), so you would have to be frame perfect.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Oh the three-frames thing was just an approximation...it's probably more because I've seen a ROB jump to escape the cg...

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Oh the three-frames thing was just an approximation...it's probably more because I've seen a ROB jump to escape the cg...

Ah, ok.

3 frames is a helluva short time. 1/20 of a second for those that don't know.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There is a three-frame window after each throw where you can roll, spotdodge, jump, jab etc (more experienced brawlers correct me if I'm wrong...)

I know it doesn't work on lightweights at all, they don't slide after the throw (yay G&W!)

I normally just mash Sonic's springjump to escape it

 

[webrunner]

So, to recap..

Infinite wall combo- Escapable, assuming the character performing the combo also doesnt have a wall behind them, because you can DI-push them away.
Dedede grab - esapable
Falco laser - I've heard both.. is there confirmation it's inescapable? We know it's pretty much fully avoidable, though, since it requires a very obvious setup, right?

If Falco's is proof, then we dont have to ban any wall stages (except MK and such that there's places with two walls next to each other) or any walk-off stages, correct?