Monado Art Switching tactics discussion

[OptimistNic]

This thread is to discuss how the switching of the various Monado Arts in the middle of battle can create some unique competitive opportunities.

Let's recall the order of Monado Arts used:
翔 (Jump): higher jumps, lower defense.
疾 (Speed): faster movement, weaker attacks.
盾(Shield): higher defense, slower movement.
斬(Buster): stronger attacks, weaker launch ability.
撃(Smash): Stronger launch ability, weaker attacks, lower defense against launching.
And perhaps you switch it back to normal after Smash mode.

For example, I can see players using Buster mode to rack up damage and juggle the opponent (due to the weak launch ability it may be possible) and then quickly switching to Smash mode to KO the opponent, perhaps mid-combo.

 

[DaDavid]

As of right now the only one I have a clear defined use for is Shield, which I plan to use when wanting to approach characters like Bowser and DK who are also slow enough that my slower movement won't matter too much, but do enough damage that I want the higher defense. And I suppose I will likely use Smash mode to edge-guard.

 

[MooseSmuggler]

Jump will probably be useful for following opponents knocked airborne and Speed can close gaps pretty quickly for a follow-up. Shield can help against heavy-hitters, like @ DaDavid said, and it can also help when Shulk has taken a lot of damage to prevent a KO. And then there's the Buster-->Smash combo mentioned in the OP.

What I want to know is exactly how long each mode lasts and how long the cool-down is (and if all Modes are the same or if they vary).

 

[Masonomace]

What I'm mainly concerned with about Monado's Arts is "Can we use it airborne?"

I feel we should right? Proc'ing an art in mid-air doesn't sound far fetched unless it's a forced-grounded activation like Olimar's plucking pikmin from the ground, because he can't pluck pikmin mid-air. The trailer clearly showed him using all of his arts only when he was on ground, but there may be more footage of him in another trailer or later when Japan releases the game there.

Whether he can use it in the air or not is what makes or breaks this tactical discussion about Shulk's Neutral Special. The possibilities are limitless if he's able to use it airborne. The next speculation is, "Does it have any landing lag if used right before touching the stage?" Airdodges got nerfed in that aspect, so again it's a 'wait & see' kind of thing.

Hypotheticall speaking, Jump, if Monado Arts can be used in mid-air, would be the first go-to art to activate for obvious reasons when recovering plus what @ MooseSmuggler said. Speed can be used to gain stage control when you launch fighters off-stage to close the gap much faster & proceed to edge-guarding with another art. Shield would be ideal based on preference in uncomfortable MU's VS heavy fighters like Bowser & Dedede as @ DaDavid said. Shield would reduce knockback misleading us that Shulk would become heavy for stock-tanking holding out. @ OptimistNic 's example of using Buster is a fine choice to swap to Smash for sealing KO's, especially if Buster mostly increases the range of his Monado blade most of the time, making his Vision counter proc extreme rack-up damage. Smash obviously for sealing KO's & making his counter even more powerful if needed to be timed correctly on start-up, but Smash is his most hurtful art, being a double-edged sword if a situation doesn't go your way.

 

[MooseSmuggler]

Judging by the leaked footage, it looks like he does indeed have the ability to Mode-swap while in the air.

 

[Berserker.]

I wonder if Monado shield can take more than one hit... Actually, I wonder how long it lasts.... Does it last for a duration or it only takes one hit (one talent) just like in the game?

If it's the latter then we might have an issue with multi-hitting smash attacks (Link and Toon Link)

 

[MechaWave]

I do wonder if the Monado Arts have some limitations. Switching between all these Arts without a limit, even with the buffs/nerfs that come with each one, is a bit overpowered. It's not explicitly stated in the trailer but implied in the leaked footage.

 

[MooseSmuggler]

I wonder if Monado shield can take more than one hit... Actually, I wonder how long it lasts.... Does it last for a duration or it only takes one hit (one talent) just like in the game?

If it's the latter then we might have an issue with multi-hitting smash attacks (Link and Toon Link)

From the intro trailer, it looks like it stays up after taking Mario's F-Smash. I mean, it could be a delay, but it seems like it stays up the full time even after being hit. Thankfully a good canon-violation xD

Edit: @ MechaWave I think from the leaked footage, people figured out that once an Art fades, it has a cool-down period where he can't use it. Hopefully the cool-down isn't "until KO'ed".

 

[DaDavid]

Yeah the arts are less of a stance change as was originally described to us and more of... well like if he had some items that he can use throughout a match.

 

[Neo Zero]

What I'm mainly concerned with about Monado's Arts is "Can we use it airborne?"

I feel we should right? Proc'ing an art in mid-air doesn't sound far fetched unless it's a forced-grounded activation like Olimar's plucking pikmin from the ground, because he can't pluck pikmin mid-air. The trailer clearly showed him using all of his arts only when he was on ground, but there may be more footage of him in another trailer or later when Japan releases the game there.

Whether he can use it in the air or not is what makes or breaks this tactical discussion about Shulk's Neutral Special. The possibilities are limitless if he's able to use it airborne. The next speculation is, "Does it have any landing lag if used right before touching the stage?" Airdodges got nerfed in that aspect, so again it's a 'wait & see' kind of thing.

Hypotheticall speaking, Jump, if Monado Arts can be used in mid-air, would be the first go-to art to activate for obvious reasons when recovering plus what @ MooseSmuggler said. Speed can be used to gain stage control when you launch fighters off-stage to close the gap much faster & proceed to edge-guarding with another art. Shield would be ideal based on preference in uncomfortable MU's VS heavy fighters like Bowser & Dedede as @ DaDavid said. Shield would reduce knockback misleading us that Shulk would become heavy for stock-tanking holding out. @ OptimistNic 's example of using Buster is a fine choice to swap to Smash for sealing KO's, especially if Buster mostly increases the range of his Monado blade most of the time, making his Vision counter proc extreme rack-up damage. Smash obviously for sealing KO's & making his counter even more powerful if needed to be timed correctly on start-up, but Smash is his most hurtful art, being a double-edged sword if a situation doesn't go your way.

Ya, you can change in mid air. The leak video shows it.

 

[Masonomace]

Ya, you can change in mid air. The leak video shows it.

I vaguely remember but the leak video & his trailer seem completely different in comparison of move-set. I took the leak video of shulk as a hint of what we may get, but not exactly what we will get. I'll probably need to re-watch it though it's most likely removed.

 

[DaDavid]

I vaguely remember but the leak video & his trailer seem completely different in comparison of move-set. I took the leak video of shulk as a hint of what we may get, but not exactly what we will get. I'll probably need to re-watch it though it's most likely removed.

Naw they're pretty much identical. In fact I don't even need to qualify it; every move (except for his D-Air I think) he used in the leaked footage, we saw in the trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYbiNrWTGXA <---- There's the footage if you wanna look it over yourself though.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Buster will probably be higher-tiered than the other transformations due to both its high damage and high combo ability (which was supposed to be its weakness).

Then Smash will be switched to when damage is high enough.

I don't imagine the other forms will get much use outside of specific matchups where Buster/Smash are at a disadvantage.

 

[Cpt.]

This thread is to discuss how the switching of the various Monado Arts in the middle of battle can create some unique competitive opportunities.

Let's recall the order of Monado Arts used:
翔 (Jump): higher jumps, lower defense.
疾 (Speed): faster movement, weaker attacks.
盾(Shield): higher defense, slower movement.
斬(Buster): stronger attacks, weaker launch ability.
撃(Smash): Stronger launch ability, weaker attacks, lower defense against launching.
And perhaps you switch it back to normal after Smash mode.

For example, I can see players using Buster mode to rack up damage and juggle the opponent (due to the weak launch ability it may be possible) and then quickly switching to Smash mode to KO the opponent, perhaps mid-combo.

I have a feeling that Shield will end up being pretty useless in competitive play. Or at least only as useful as say F.L.U.D.D.

 

[MooseSmuggler]

I have a feeling that Shield will end up being pretty useless in competitive play. Or at least only as useful as say F.L.U.D.D.

Jump seems like the most likely to be useless. Shield can save your skin in a pinch, theoretically. Notice how he took Mario's F-Smash like a champ with Shield up.

 

[Cpt.]

Jump seems like the most likely to be useless. Shield can save your skin in a pinch, theoretically. Notice how he took Mario's F-Smash like a champ with Shield up.

Idk Jump can probably be used for combos, but if it can't then it will end up the most useless.

Still, even though Shield can save your stock, a regular can too....

 

[DaDavid]

Shield seems more like insurance than something you would use in a pinch. Jump however seems like it would mostly be useful in a pinch, but, since you can only switch when you have control over your character it might too difficult to use it in that way.

 

[Ghoti]

翔 (Jump): higher jumps, lower defense.

Definitely a recovery move. Use it when falling and get a great recovery. It could be useful for juggling, also.

疾 (Speed): faster movement, weaker attacks.

Pretty good for pressure. It would play great mind games when you're quickly attacking, not allowing the other to strike.

盾(Shield): higher defense, slower movement.

Maybe use this when you're at high damage. I read this idea earlier, but can't remember who came up with it ( sorry ;-; )

斬(Buster): stronger attacks, weaker launch ability.

This would be great for combos. Use this to deal serious damage with combos.

撃(Smash): Stronger launch ability, weaker attacks, lower defense against launching.

After dealing a lot of damage, to ensure the destruction of your foes, switch to Smash to K.O..

 

[MooseSmuggler]

Maybe use this when you're at high damage. I read this idea earlier, but can't remember who came up with it ( sorry ;-; )

You're welcome (though to be fair, @ DaDavid came up with the "approaching heavyweights" idea)

 

[DaDavid]

Using Shield at high percentage is actually a pretty cool idea. I could see some Shulk users approaching the character too different ways depending on if it's early in the match/stock or near the end.

 

[link2702]

the problem with shield is it likely will make you juggle and even chaingrab(even with the new heavy delay's after throw's) bait.

it likely will be like the metal form; , if you are at high damage at the time, it will again, make you easy to juggle with things like up tilt.


IDK, but atm it just seems like shield would be a very risky one to use. Then again we've literally only seen a couple seconds of gameplay so who knows....

 

[Starcutter]

Speed and buster look the most useful, with smash coming up next.

 

[Phantom High]

i do think Jump will help Shulk go for star kos with stages that have high ceilings. other then that, i am not sure what else besides recovery.
shield I'll feel like it's Shulk's worst mode. having a harder time to be knocked back means you're more susceptible to combos.
i wonder with speed that Shulk can throw dash grab and throw again.

 

[Masonomace]

Idk Jump can probably be used for combos, but if it can't then it will end up the most useless.

Still, even though Shield can save your stock, a regular can too....

SHield art may be used to put up a 2ndary reliable defense for when your Shield is poked down very low & you as the player are currently waiting for your shield to recover whether you Roll left or right to heal it. Shield can be utilized this way which I'm totally fine with.

the problem with shield is it likely will make you juggle and even chaingrab(even with the new heavy delay's after throw's) bait.
it likely will be like the metal form; , if you are at high damage at the time, it will again, make you easy to juggle with things like up tilt.
IDK, but atm it just seems like shield would be a very risky one to use. Then again we've literally only seen a couple seconds of gameplay so who knows....

I can see shield being your last resort 'survival instinct'. If we air-dodge upon the ground which is a mistake to do now, the last resort to live would to activate the Shield art so we don't get launched so far, then dis-engage switching to another art. Shield seems very reliable. Shield should be used defensively & not offensively since we'd get juggled. The last thing I forgot about is the transition of arts from Speed to Shield is perfect especially for the survival instict point. Speed's drawback is weaker attacks which is poor for challenging air-game, while Shield no matter what increases what Speed reduces, making the change of an art to art heavily different that can decide the match in one attack.
Based off what's been announced so far, Smash is Shulk's most risking art to use. All you get is stronger launch power to seal KOs, but your attacks do less %, & you're so-to-speak more lighter less resistant to taking knock-back. Smash art reminds me of Melee Jigglypuff in this way.

So basically, his arts can be defined off of characters like so:

Jump: Bunny hood
Speed: duh
Shield:
Buster: Basically no one but . Pretty unique here.
Smash: 's AuraBoost% mechanic disregarding the dmg% decrease, becoming a from being less resistant to knockback.

 

[SmashShadow]

The real questions are how fast will switching be and will we be able to switch on command to any one we want.

 

[OptimistNic]

I looked at the leaked footage, and it looks like you can only hold on to one Monado Art for up to 7 seconds before it deactivates and returns to normal. I guess that means that you have to react fast and switch to another art at the last second unless it disables you from switching arts after you're already using one.

 

[AlvisCPU]

As far as I know, we don't know if Arts can be cancelled or overwritten with a new one. If we can't, I think this makes their utility quite a bit harder. Going Buster->Smash is going to be hard if you can't swap on command, you'd need to get your timing perfect for when Buster ends. If you're thrown off, you mightn't be able to swap to Jump if you already have something else going.

 

[Ryan.]

I love this, makes him such a unique character. He will be tough to master, I think.

 

[erico9001]

In 1v1, Shield might be good when at high damage. However, I think it would be truly useful in ffa matches. Imagine combining Shield with a lot of the Down Smash in a ffa.

Buster will be much better for 1v1 than for ffa. People have already discussed 1v1, but there's no real advantage for opponents to take higher damage but lower knockback in ffa, since they are taking damage from the other opponents anyways. Wish Buster on, you could lose the opportunity to take out an opponent that you just realized is high in damage.

Smash will be great in both. Knockback always means a lot in ffas, and in 1v1 it is something to switch to when the opponent is high in damage.

Speed will be good for combos I guess, but we have yet to see if it just speeds up movement or also attacks. It should also be nice for running away and evading attacks. Possibly might be good for hitting opponents that are already off the edge, based on how far the cpu is able to jump when he uses speed in the leak. Now considering items... it might also be good to switch to the mode right before grabbing an item like the hammer.

Jump... would really improve recovery
Allow you to hit opponents that are knocked high into the air
Would be good for hitting opponents once they are already off the edge.
Also, it should be good for annoying moving levels like the dk falls one if there's something like that.

 

[Mr. Johan]

This is less about the utility of the arts, and more about the art switching itself.

Looking at that footage, it looks like Shulk presses Neutral B to cycle to a kanji, but then has to wait for a few seconds to officially activate the Art. The kanji stops toggling the instant he starts moving and jumping, and starts cycling again when he's in the middle of his first jump and he's not doing anything, and he doesn't activate an Art at any point.

So if someone can keep pressure on Shulk, he can't activate an Art and give him a buff he may need at that moment. And if Shulk is attacked or threatened the moment he wants a particular Art, he will have to both complete the cycle again, and also find time once more to activate the Art without interruption. That's an acceptable weakness.

In 1V1s, this will be easy to do by just throwing someone and then immediately cycle through the Arts, but getting the one you want could be problematic in Doubles. Gotta think smartly and not just blindly spam the Neutral B as if it was a roulette wheel.

 

[DaDavid]

This is less about the utility of the arts, and more about the art switching itself.

Looking at that footage, it looks like Shulk presses Neutral B to cycle to a kanji, but then has to wait for a few seconds to officially activate the Art. The kanji stops toggling the instant he starts moving and jumping, and starts cycling again when he's in the middle of his first jump and he's not doing anything, and he doesn't activate an Art at any point.

So if someone can keep pressure on Shulk, he can't activate an Art and give him a buff he may need at that moment. And if Shulk is attacked or threatened the moment he wants a particular Art, he will have to both complete the cycle again, and also find time once more to activate the Art without interruption. That's an acceptable weakness.

In 1V1s, this will be easy to do by just throwing someone and then immediately cycle through the Arts, but getting the one you want could be problematic in Doubles. Gotta think smartly and not just blindly spam the Neutral B as if it was a roulette wheel.

It's pretty much the sort of balance it needs. Not too tricky for us to activate it if left alone, but someone who can really lay the pressure down will make it so it might not even be smart to use our free time to switch Arts.

One thing that's being somewhat lost in all this is... what are Shulk's default properties? I could see some of these arts being entirely unworthy of the risk if, for example, he has moves that have great KO potential by default or is decently fast compared to others.

 

[Jerm]

I believe that Shulk's default properties will be rather lackluster to reward those who master and utilize his arts the best. He will be a character that doesnt hit hard or fast but once he has his arts activated he becomes the opposite. So maybe his Fsmash default only KO's at 120% while Smash enhanced Fsmash KO's at 100%. Something like that.

 

[OptimistNic]

I wrote about how a Monado Art lasts for 7 seconds but can now provide evidence:

It also seems that it takes about 60 frames for a single Monado Art to be activated, unless you can activate it by attacking, which the COM clearly did not do. Notice that when an Art ends, it displays the kanji of the Art used but colored black.

 

[KassandraNova]

Looks like everyone who plans on playing Shulk better memorize the Kanji for each Monado Art.
Good thing I'm already studying Japanese for about a year. Hehe <3

 

[OptimistNic]

Looks like everyone who plans on playing Shulk better memorize the Kanji for each Monado Art.
Good thing I'm already studying Japanese for about a year. Hehe <3

The kanji are color-coded and are set in a specific order. It won't be hard to follow at all.

 

[DaDavid]

Looks like everyone who plans on playing Shulk better memorize the Kanji for each Monado Art.
Good thing I'm already studying Japanese for about a year. Hehe <3

Yeah that hardly seems necessary given the colors. But isn't that Chinese anyway? It was Chinese in Xenoblade so it'd be pretty weird to make it Japanese for no reason other than "hey I'm Japanese!"

 

[KassandraNova]

I was pretty sure it was Japanese but I could be wrong. :/

Yeah, I guess it being color coded does help, wouldn't hurt to know the symbols as well though.

 

[OptimistNic]

I can confirm that, yes, the symbols are Chinese characters and not Japanese kanji, just to get that out of the way.

 

[DaDavid]

Yee, I know my Xenoblade stuff haha.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Even if switching is slow and tough, the different art modes will make him highly likely one of the best teams character with his versatility.