Monado Art Switching tactics discussion

[Chauzu]

Thanks for the info again, Chauzu!

Weird, U-tilt did 10% damage in the Shulk vs Villager footage I saw.... Maybe it makes a difference against grounded opponents. Masonomace said something about it dealing less damage against air borne opponents. Can you try it out? If you feel like it. I'm not gonna force you

Forgot to test vs. ground opponent but still does 9% fresh. But what is weirder is... The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th hit ALWAYS does 10%. I can't get the first hit to do 10 no matter what I do, but if I just keep spamming it does 10%. But if I do a jab first and then utilt, it does 10%... I'm just confused lol. Dunno what to think.

Edit: And I just tried Burster b-throw > f-smash vs. Palutena quickly and didn't feel like a true combo, might depend on char though.

 

[Berserker.]

Forgot to test vs. ground opponent but still does 9% fresh. But what is weirder is... The 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th hit ALWAYS does 10%. I can't get the first hit to do 10 no matter what I do, but if I just keep spamming it does 10%. But if I do a jab first and then utilt, it does 10%... I'm just confused lol. Dunno what to think.

Edit: And I just tried Burster b-throw > f-smash vs. Palutena quickly and didn't feel like a true combo, might depend on char though.

Wow. That's really weird....

To be safe, let's just assume that b-throw>f-smash combo works against anyone with a weight of 97 and above. Eh, I'm still not too sure

 

[Masonomace]

I zoomed in to watch VIllager's facial expressions, & noticed his face returned to normal almost after the B-throw. I don't think B-throw > FSmash is a true combo, but it was momentarily nice to dream it would be. I don't believe B-Throw has enough frame advantage for that to be pulled off.

Perhaps when the C-stick New 3DSLL releases, we'll see buffered inputs much quicker in succession, seeing B-Throw > turnaround FSmash.

Or again, it could just be B-throw not having frame advantage. U-throw & D-throw appear to have more advantage.

EDIT: So, early game guarantee:

Buster

• 0% to 30% = U-throw early % > U-tilt strings.
• 30% to 60% = Grab > pummel x2 > B-throw = Profit

 

[Chauzu]

I did face a fellow Shulk in For Glory earlier today and when I did Buster u-throw > u-tilt he was always able to Vision against me even when at 0%, that worried me a bit.

Or maybe it should excite me, Vision to escape combo's?

 

[Masonomace]

I did face a fellow Shulk in For Glory earlier today and when I did Buster u-throw > u-tilt he was always able to Vision against me even when at 0%, that worried me a bit.

Or maybe it should excite me, Vision to escape combo's?

Did the opposing Shulk have an Art active? Perhaps depending if he did have a certain Art on, idk nvm.
Vision c-c-c-combo feeling!

The alternative to trigger-happy counters is mixing up the U-throw with shield-grabbing their landing to another U-throw, then proceed with U-tilts. Thoughts? Feelings?

 

[Chauzu]

Did the opposing Shulk have an Art active? Perhaps depending if he did have a certain Art on, idk nvm.
Vision c-c-c-combo feeling!

The alternative to trigger-happy counters is mixing up the U-throw with shield-grabbing their landing to another U-throw, then proceed with U-tilts. Thoughts? Feelings?

I thought it felt good to punish the opponent with a few charged d-smashes.

 

[Berserker.]

I did face a fellow Shulk in For Glory earlier today and when I did Buster u-throw > u-tilt he was always able to Vision against me even when at 0%, that worried me a bit.

Or maybe it should excite me, Vision to escape combo's?

Wonder what happens if you only use either vanilla Shulk or any Shulk that does not affect knockback. I think the reduced knockback from buster affects it...

Erk. I think the knockback nerf of buster might reduce buster's damage potential but regardless, I still see buster as one of Shulk's go-to arts.

About u-throw to u-tilt, I still think it probably works. Considering the scenario: The opponent was recently hit bu u-tilt. At that very moment, you can actually attempt another u-tilt and hope he gets hit OR bait him and do nothing and force him to use his aerial to make his landing safe THEN use vision. Make sure you move the stick forward when the counter is triggered because that's the variation with better damage (which means slightly better knockback)

@ Chauzu Edit2: Not sure if the stronger variation has enough reach. Just hope for the best then with countering. Lol. Or punish the landing with air slash OR roll left or right then back slash punish

 

[Chauzu]

Ok, so I decided to try out the Extreme Monado Arts for the heck of it and see how it feels like.

First, some numbers.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt not tip: 19%

Fresh vanilla u-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla u-tilt not tip: 7%
Fresh buster u-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster u-tilt not tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt not tip: 11%

(as has been mentioned before the way u-tilt deals damage is kinda odd)

Fresh vanilla d-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla d-tilt not tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt not tip: 11%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt not tip: 12%

As for general impressions:

Extreme Jump

Wow, what happened here? It feels like you jump as high as before but you fall down on the ground way faster, so I presume gained weight? The combo's I listed before doesn't work with this in any case.

Extreme Speed

Feels faster and somehow easier to control at the same time ??? I'm feeling confused lol.

Extreme Defense

Probably slower? It was already so slow it's impossible to say. But Aerodrome has already calculated Shulk has heigher weight here.

Extreme Buster

Woooow haha. Like NO KNOCKBACK. Seriously. I put a ZSS on 200% and I could juggle her with u-tilt lol. This was almost scary.

Extreme Smash

Shulk's forward tilt KO's ZSS from the middle of Final Destination at 100%. 'nuff said.

 

[Berserker.]

Ok, so I decided to try out the Extreme Monado Arts for the heck of it and see how it feels like.

First, some numbers.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt not tip: 19%

Fresh vanilla u-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla u-tilt not tip: 7%
Fresh buster u-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster u-tilt not tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt not tip: 11%

(as has been mentioned before the way u-tilt deals damage is kinda odd)

Fresh vanilla d-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla d-tilt not tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt not tip: 11%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt not tip: 12%

As for general impressions:

Extreme Jump

Wow, what happened here? It feels like you jump as high as before but you fall down on the ground way faster, so I presume gained weight? The combo's I listed before doesn't work with this in any case.

Extreme Speed

Feels faster and somehow easier to control at the same time ??? I'm feeling confused lol.

Extreme Defense

Probably slower? It was already so slow it's impossible to say. But Aerodrome has already calculated Shulk has heigher weight here.

Extreme Buster

Woooow haha. Like NO KNOCKBACK. Seriously. I put a ZSS on 200% and I could juggle her with u-tilt lol. This was almost scary.

Extreme Smash

Shulk's forward tilt KO's ZSS from the middle of Final Destination at 100%. 'nuff said.

I think the double edge here comes from the very fact that your damage multiplier (received) is at around x1.4 which is scary and regarding extreme smash, you become the lightest character in the game. That makes it even more scary. Lol. Still, the buffs for buster, defense and speed are tempting

 

[Masonomace]

Ok, so I decided to try out the Extreme Monado Arts for the heck of it and see how it feels like.

First, some numbers.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt tip: 16%
Fresh extreme buster f-tilt not tip: 19%
I actually expected a little bit more out of Extreme Arts. I for sure would of thought Fresh Extreme Buster F-tilt would do 20%.
Fresh vanilla u-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla u-tilt not tip: 7%
Fresh buster u-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster u-tilt not tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster u-tilt not tip: 11%

(as has been mentioned before the way u-tilt deals damage is kinda odd)

Fresh vanilla d-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla d-tilt not tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt not tip: 11%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt tip: 9%
Fresh extreme buster d-tilt not tip: 12%

As for general impressions:

Extreme Jump
Wow, what happened here? It feels like you jump as high as before but you fall down on the ground way faster, so I presume gained weight? The combo's I listed before doesn't work with this in any case.
Hmm, same height as the regular Monado Arts Jump doesn't sound right, & the weight gain sounds weird too, since one setback of Jump is decreased weight, HEY WAIT A MIN---. . .how does your weight increase if it's a setback. . .Oh nvm. I'm pretty sure that's your falling speed due to the increased Jump Height & hidden value of air speed, you probably fall faster & DI left or right faster too. I'd test that out more & let us know your feedback.

Extreme Speed
Feels faster and somehow easier to control at the same time ??? I'm feeling confused lol.
ExtremeSpeed?
Ya don't say. What about the % damage output you deal, didn't that decrease by a lot? Not to mention the nother setback to Speed is decreased Jump height, did the height get even shorter?

Extreme Defense
Probably slower? It was already so slow it's impossible to say. But Aerodrome has already calculated Shulk has heigher weight here.
Jump Height & the decreased % damage dealt are the other 2 setbacks you forgot to mention about. What's it like on those ends? Can Shulk's ShortHop even leave the ground?

Extreme Buster
Woooow haha. Like NO KNOCKBACK. Seriously. I put a ZSS on 200% and I could juggle her with u-tilt lol. This was almost scary.
Eggstreme Buster confirmed derp n slurp. Just adulting. So if the Knockback value was preactically not even there one bit, what was it like for when you got hit launched away? Die at 60 from a Bowser uncharged FSmash%?

Extreme Smash
Shulk's forward tilt KO's ZSS from the middle of Final Destination at 100%. 'nuff said.
Holy hotness. Tilts confirmed to be your friends.
. . .
. . .
Besides 'nuff said, how was the setbacks? You know, Decreased weight & decreased launch resistance. .I'm betting we die from average hitting moves around 80-ish%.

I find those fresh vanilla & buster %'s sketchy. I would of thought Extreme Monado Arts go to the very Eggstreme.
Anyways, my replies are in your quote.

ZEDIT: I would totally use Eggstreme Monado Arts once I master Vanilla.

 

[AlvisCPU]

It's probably been discussed already, but in what general cases should Shulk be using, or not using, each Art? I've sort of got a general idea from just thinking and watching a couple videos, but I was wondering what others thought.

Jump: Recovery. Maybe to follow up combos?
Speed: Not sure when this is best used. Against fast characters? Speed doesn't increase attack speed does it? Just walking/running and not rolling?
Shield: Whenever at somewhere over maybe 120%. Maybe reconsider when to use this on larger stages?
Buster: When opponent is at low damage. Maybe not against fast characters that you want to keep away?
Smash: When opponent is at high damage, but not yourself (unless you want to risk it.)

 

[Berserker.]

It's probably been discussed already, but in what general cases should Shulk be using, or not using, each Art? I've sort of got a general idea from just thinking and watching a couple videos, but I was wondering what others thought.

Jump: Recovery. Maybe to follow up combos?
Speed: Not sure when this is best used. Against fast characters? Speed doesn't increase attack speed does it? Just walking/running and not rolling?
Shield: Whenever at somewhere over maybe 120%. Maybe reconsider when to use this on larger stages?
Buster: When opponent is at low damage. Maybe not against fast characters that you want to keep away?
Smash: When opponent is at high damage, but not yourself (unless you want to risk it.)

Jump
- Recovering
- Edgeguarding
- Against campers
- Aerial mix ups (With n-air mostly)

Speed
- Against campers
- Against fast characters
- Against heavy hitters
- Follow ups on the ground
- Aerial mix ups
- Mind gaming with pivot grabs

Shield
- Stock tanking
- Playing safe
- Against heavy hitters
- For not getting killed

Buster
- Racking up damage
- Against characters that aren't heavy hitters, campers or fast characters
- Not recommended against campers or mobile characters
- Some mobile characters are fine to initiate with buster (e.g: Sonic and maybe ZSS)

Smash
- KO (Depending on your %, it can be risky)
- If your percentage is high also, you can play safe and use shield

 

[AlvisCPU]

Jump
- Recovering
- Edgeguarding
- Against campers
- Aerial mix ups (With n-air mostly)

Speed
- Against campers
- Against fast characters
- Against heavy hitters
- Follow ups on the ground
- Aerial mix ups
- Mind gaming with pivot grabs

Shield
- Stock tanking
- Playing safe
- Against heavy hitters
- For not getting killed

Buster
- Racking up damage
- Against characters that aren't heavy hitters, campers or fast characters
- Not recommended against campers or mobile characters
- Some mobile characters are fine to initiate with buster (e.g: Sonic and maybe ZSS)

Smash
- KO (Depending on your %, it can be risky)
- If your percentage is high also, you can play safe and use shield

Seems reasonable enough, thanks.

I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of camping in Smash Bros., are we talking about people who are sitting near the edge of the stage to try and get quick kills, people who are edgeguarding against you, or something else?

Initially I thought Speed wouldn't be that necessary for heavy hitters since most of those characters are slow. I thought it'd be more for avoiding their hits rather than trying to outpace them, but I guess regular Shulk isn't all that fast.

 

[Berserker.]

Seems reasonable enough, thanks.

I'm not quite sure I understand the concept of camping in Smash Bros., are we talking about people who are sitting near the edge of the stage to try and get quick kills, people who are edgeguarding against you, or something else?

Initially I thought Speed wouldn't be that necessary for heavy hitters since most of those characters are slow. I thought it'd be more for avoiding their hits rather than trying to outpace them, but I guess regular Shulk isn't all that fast.

Camping is basically staying in a safe area or having a distance between you and your opponent. When those conditions are met, the camper starts keeping him away with projectiles which are also his ways of racking up damage

 

[Masonomace]

It's probably been discussed already, but in what general cases should Shulk be using, or not using, each Art? I've sort of got a general idea from just thinking and watching a couple videos, but I was wondering what others thought.

Jump: Recovery. Maybe to follow up combos?
Speed: Not sure when this is best used. Against fast characters? Speed doesn't increase attack speed does it? Just walking/running and not rolling?
Shield: Whenever at somewhere over maybe 120%. Maybe reconsider when to use this on larger stages?
Buster: When opponent is at low damage. Maybe not against fast characters that you want to keep away?
Smash: When opponent is at high damage, but not yourself (unless you want to risk it.)

General cases equal:

• Jump = Edge-guarding. Also good anti-ground tactic.
• Speed = Ultimate ground-game mix-ups / mindgames. Also fast stage-end-to-end grabs.
• Shield = Stock tanking, prolonging your life. Secretly preserving your Rage Effect to launch them flying later.
• Buster = Extra % rack-up. Very effective versus light-weight characters, not effective versus Lucario or heavy-weights at all.
• Smash = Finishing off stocks. Risk / Reward factor that gets even more riskier / rewarding when your own % is over the 100s building up your Rage Effect.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

So far I'm finding that some people have personal weaknesses to different styles of shulk. Some players are bad gainst Monado speed, while some are really bad against smash monado because they aren't good at recovering. I think it's importatnt to understand what the opposing player is least comfortable against and try to abuse that mode more than you normally would. I'm not even talking about matchups, I'm referring to the playstyle and comfort level of the opponent independent of their character. It becomes quite apparanty when you face the same character with 2 different users and one monado mode suddenly works really well...

 

[Ragna22]

As of right now I mostly use Buster, Smash and Shield. I activate Buster as soon as possible so that I can rack up damage, Smash to finish off my opponents after I racked up said damage, and I'll activate Shield so that when my opponent spawns back I can get a decent head start in damage while not having too worry too much about getting knocked out easily, and then I repeat the cycle, I might try to practice the Jump ability into my muscle memory because I tried that once and got some really good juggle combos going, it'd probably be useful against flying characters too.

 

[mario123007]

I can confirm that, yes, the symbols are Chinese characters and not Japanese kanji, just to get that out of the way.

Are you a Chinese or Taiwanese?
Learning Chinese can give you slight an advantage when using Shulk's Monado arts, I don't need to think what that word means when switching Monado arts.

Yeah that hardly seems necessary given the colors. But isn't that Chinese anyway? It was Chinese in Xenoblade so it'd be pretty weird to make it Japanese for no reason other than "hey I'm Japanese!"

Japanese does have Chinese word in it. Go check Japanese language history for more details.