Monado Art Switching tactics discussion

[x-Ace-x]

My replies are all in your quote. All of my text is lighter colored.

Good stuff Ace, though starting with any Art would vary on the MatchUp at the start of the match. If you're versing a character Shulk can handle fine, then Buster Blader them. Any character that can zone with projectiles that are poking you down with any bonus hazards they can lay out, is automatically a disadvantage for Buster Shulk. The way I see Buster honestly, is "Speeding up the Process". You take the risk of losing knock-back & your launch resistance decreased, for the price of dealing more damage. Buster is a very risky Art & otherwise to me isn't needed unless I feel like popping it on. For me, It's actually the most situational Art to use, unless you're doing smooth not taking damage, it's mostly a bad idea to keep it on let alone use it at all when you're getting dealt endless zoning of poking % damage.

Apologies for not discussing about Neutral though. I was only thinking of the tactics we could use in-between switching Arts. Neutral is pretty solid & is most likely used in Neutral game most of the time.

As for the timings on using Arts, I'd debate that Smash would rather be used when your % & the opponent's % are ripe. In Sm4sh, a certain effect called the 'Rage Effect', increases knock-back on attacks & grab throws the higher your current % is. So using Smash during our very high % to play the extremely risky-rewarding game, would pay off most definitely if scoring a KO. Smash depending on both ours & the opponent's %, could be activated earlier or later depending on their weight class. A light fighter like Marth would be around 70% for my tastes, whereas Bowser being Very Heavy would be around the 90% marker like you mentioned. Very Light characters like Jigglypuff would be a definite 50% Smash activation.

EDIT: This is what I mean by Rage Effect. Ladies & Gentlemen, & props to @warionumbah2 for this share in Lucario's overall changes thread. I give you this video.
Rage Effect not only further increases Shulk in general at high %, but:

• stock tanking with Shield while almost negating his indirect nerf of less damage, is compensated with more knock-back
• hunting off-stage opponents edgeguarding with Jump provided by the granting knock-back boost, edgeguarding got much more fun & interesting
• Buster's less knock-back initially being a setback to Shulk, now compensated a bit the more % he has. Still becomes a risky Art to use regardless of the small regain of some knock-back.
• Smash benefiting the most from the Rage Effect, his added knock-back value plus more knock-back scaling makes Smash alone more dangerous & risky, yet much more rewarding. Said earlier that Vision counter with the forward input change, plus the augment change of Smash, combined with Rage's Effect from having high %, all adds up to be formidable & noted.

Ok thank you I didn't know about Rage Effect.
But that's also why using Buster early on is a good strategy, I feel like what you're saying is actually complementary to what I believe.

I think there is definitely a point, a window (moment) relative to your own % and the one of your opponent when some arts don't worth being activated anymore during battle. I personally call the optimum moment to activate art "Optimal Activation Window". Some are short like the Buster effect, or quite long like the Smash effect, etc... For example when you're above 70 to 80% buster doesn't worth the risk anymore. That's why I would, in most cases, advice to use Buster early on, you have less chance to get knocked out.

I think knowing when to activate/deactivate shulk's art will be crucial in high level matches and that's what is exciting about maining Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

This is what I mean by Rage Effect. Ladies & Gentlemen, & props to @warionumbah2 for this share in Lucario's overall changes thread. I give you this video.
Rage Effect not only further increases Shulk in general at high %, but:

• stock tanking with Shield while almost negating his indirect nerf of less damage, is compensated with more knock-back
• hunting off-stage opponents edgeguarding with Jump provided by the granting knock-back boost, edgeguarding got much more fun & interesting
• Buster's less knock-back initially being a setback to Shulk, now compensated a bit the more % he has. Still becomes a risky Art to use regardless of the small regain of some knock-back.
• Smash benefiting the most from the Rage Effect, his added knock-back value plus more knock-back scaling makes Smash alone more dangerous & risky, yet much more rewarding. Said earlier that Vision counter with the forward input change, plus the augment change of Smash, combined with Rage's Effect from having high %, all adds up to be formidable & noted.

Good job on the short informative post about the rage effect

Anyway, here are my random ramblings about neutral Shulk... Or I'll just use vanilla Shulk

Vanilla

The form I forgot to talk about. Basically, this is Shulk's form without any Monado art activated. It's usually mistaken as useless or something you probably shouldn't be in for most of the match. Well, to be honest, you're probably gonna spend more time having a Monado art activated but that isn't to say that vanilla Shulk is more of a nuisance than an asset. One advantage vanilla Shulk has is that he still has the range, he takes no debuffs and his damage output is fairly decent. My only gripe with vanilla Shulk is that his KO potential is pretty average (Around 150%). Vision helps though with this problem. However, some minor things to note...

- Vanilla Shulk's defense and weight are not messed with. Shulk's standard weight is above average (On par with Mega Man and Normal Mii)
- Vanilla Shulk's damage output is not reduced, unlike when using speed or smash
- Vanilla Shulk's weight is not affected unlike when using jump or speed
- Vanilla Shulk's mobility is not good so... Eh... It gets ****tier though in Shield
- Vanilla Shulk's knockback is decent but it's better than buster

So, you can think about that. I'm not encouraging anyone to actually just use vanilla Shulk ONLY. Just saying that it's not completely crap.

You'll probably use this art...

1) Like what ace posted, there's a chance you might get a cheap kill with vanilla Shulk. *cough* Vision *cough*. Additionally while staying in vanilla Shulk, buster's cooldown will eventually diminish. It's not much but it's worth noting.

2) If you need to create space between you and your opponent to use a Monado art, you're gonna be forced to stay in this stance

... Hm... That's all I can think of :|

I'm not feeling it

 

[Noa.]

Here's a grand finals set in Japan between a Diddy and a Shulk. I am not certain of the skill of these players but they do seem halfway decent. Just to see Monado Arts in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2otKszSluc&app=desktop

 

[A2ZOMG]

The people who state that Jump is useful for recovery are failing to see the bigger picture. It's important to keep in mind Shulk's recovery in most situations is already pretty decent, so committing to switching to Jump for extra recovery likely isn't going to help you much, if at all. However...

The BEST time to use Jump is specifically to edgeguard, when having its properties expands your range of influence offstage.

 

[x-Ace-x]

The people who state that Jump is useful for recovery are failing to see the bigger picture.

Actually using it mid-recovery is not that useful. The BEST time to use Jump is specifically to edgeguard, when having its properties expands your range of influence offstage.

Yeah, I didn't think about that.
That could actually be great.

 

[adom4]

Shulk has a custom for his neutral B that increases the buffs + nerfs of the modes at the cost of shorter duration.
Do you think its worth the extra buff or will it be better just to roll with the stock neutral B?

 

[Chauzu]

Shulk has a custom for his neutral B that increases the buffs + nerfs of the modes at the cost of shorter duration.
Do you think its worth the extra buff or will it be better just to roll with the stock neutral B?

In my own small experience the time limit is way too short to be worthwhile, maybe once you've got used to the normal Monado Arts.

I've spent a day with only using Shulk now in Training and For Glory (why decide a main before giving everybody a shot?) and I've been enjoying it. But it's the most complicated character I've ever used in a Smash game, it feels like I still haven't really grasped him.

But for the arts, the Buster variant is incredible. Even at 50%-ish you can combo a u-throw into u-tilt with it for huge damage. You will always want to use this option at some point during the beginning of the opponents stocks.

Jump has surprised me positively. Like many others I was afraid it was going to be a bit meh but it's not bad. It espescially shines when you've got a lead and the opponent is reaching 100% - a bit too early for the Smash monado but you can still get kills. Jump does this nicely as you lose no power and "only" take more damage - the options you get with Jump make it worth it though imo. If you've not seen much of jump in action I can say it covers an insane amount of space. You can basically edgeguard an opponent anywhere on the screen and get back up. You also jump far horizontally so it feels very fast, and you can do some combos that normally aren't possible, like fair to bair.

Speed is a bit meh, the loss of power is though. I usually either start games with it to feel them out and get a grab game going or to change the pace a bit. It's very fast though and you can play so many mindgames that it's such a shame about the lack of power. Only going for grabs and rolls and throwing a few Vanish in is pretty fun though.

Defense is useful when you can presume it is. I've also noticed it has an insane pivot grab - since you barely move sideways but still get the added range to it.

Changing Monado is the trickiest part imo but I'm starting to get the timing I think. It's a bit of math though as you need to press 3 times to deactivate a Monado and then 1-5 to go through a cycle. I usually do the changes while in the air, after the opponent has been knocked away or is at a safe distance, or when I'm on the ledge. (You can actually go through a full Monado cycle with a short jump on the ledge if you're quick enough.)

I'm enjoying Shulk so far at least, I'll write some more general impressions tomorrow in another thread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've spent a day with only using Shulk now in Training and For Glory (why decide a main before giving everybody a shot?) and I've been enjoying it. But it's the most complicated character I've ever used in a Smash game, it feels like I still haven't really grasped him.

Shulk honestly ain't complicated from what I've seen. Think how Ike plays. Then just remember that every so often it's worth using Monado Arts to better adapt to some situations.

 

[Chauzu]

Shulk honestly ain't complicated from what I've seen. Think how Ike plays. Then just remember that every so often it's worth using Monado Arts to better adapt to some situations.

That might be true but I feel like when I'm using Shulk I always want to be using Monado Arts or else I can't enjoy the character.

I presume we'll see many different Shulks in regards to this.

 

[x-Ace-x]

That might be true but I feel like when I'm using Shulk I always want to be using Monado Arts or else I can't enjoy the character.

I presume we'll see many different Shulks in regards to this.

Yeah it's understandable.
Shulk is clearly not for everyone. You have to be very methodic and discipline with him.
Switching Art has a to become second nature and it will need a lot of training to be so.

A lot of people will be disappointed in Shulk, a lot are already, because he looks really bad when you're not using his Arts properly.
For instance, I keep watching videos of people saying "Oh Shulk has no kill move...", they don't understand that all his moves could potentially be "kill move" with the right Art...

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like the primary thing Shulk really has going for him is conditional mobility based on his Arts. Gives him a lot of space control options for him to press the advantage when he has it. I could see defensive playstyles being problematic for him though, because one thing Shulk doesn't have is strong rushdown.

 

[Masonomace]

Ok thank you I didn't know about Rage Effect.
But that's also why using Buster early on is a good strategy, I feel like what you're saying is actually complementary to what I believe.

I think there is definitely a point, a window (moment) relative to your own % and the one of your opponent when some arts don't worth being activated anymore during battle. I personally call the optimum moment to activate art "Optimal Activation Window". Some are short like the Buster effect, or quite long like the Smash effect, etc... For example when you're above 70 to 80% buster doesn't worth the risk anymore. That's why I would, in most cases, advice to use Buster early on, you have less chance to get knocked out.

I think knowing when to activate/deactivate shulk's art will be crucial in high level matches and that's what is exciting about maining Shulk.

Well, Rage Effect doesn't help early game at all, so you have to think of it as Lucario's AuraBoost% mechanic. If you're at an early %, you're not getting any 'Rage'. According to that video, there's added difference occurring every 20% or so. So it's not as much of a compensation of bonus launch power given to Shulk, than we may think. Only when Shulk's % is at 50% or more, is when it gets noticeably different ; the conflict with using Buster at that kind of % is more hazardous towards ourselves than doing that much good to rack up %. That's why I was saying Smash & Shield would benefit the most from the knock-back increase, scaling better as your % rises.

I dig OAW, sounds cool but I'm not sure what you mean by Buster being short-lived & Smash being quite long. You may have to elaborate that to me, since I thought they all lasted the same amount of time, around 16 - 17 seconds. Though I agree to an extent, I'm more lenient on Buster being activated early on in a match than later, but I still rest my own case in believing Buster is an optional Art to use. So all that aside, I most definitely agree with your last sentence, the timing of executing certain Arts within a match at high level of play will be the most interesting part to watch, seeing what Arts they decide to use, that's a good reason why I'm so interested in Shulk.

Good job on the short informative post about the rage effect. Anyway, here are my random ramblings about neutral Shulk... Or I'll just use vanilla Shulk

Vanilla

The form I forgot to talk about. Basically, this is Shulk's form without any Monado art activated. It's usually mistaken as useless or something you probably shouldn't be in for most of the match. Well, to be honest, you're probably gonna spend more time having a Monado art activated but that isn't to say that vanilla Shulk is more of a nuisance than an asset. One advantage vanilla Shulk has is that he still has the range, he takes no debuffs and his damage output is fairly decent. My only gripe with vanilla Shulk is that his KO potential is pretty average (Around 150%). Vision helps though with this problem. However, some minor things to note...

- Vanilla Shulk's defense and weight are not messed with. Shulk's standard weight is above average (On par with Mega Man and Normal Mii)
- Vanilla Shulk's damage output is not reduced, unlike when using speed or smash
- Vanilla Shulk's weight is not affected unlike when using jump or speed
- Vanilla Shulk's mobility is not good so... Eh... It gets ****tier though in Shield
- Vanilla Shulk's knockback is decent but it's better than buster

So, you can think about that. I'm not encouraging anyone to actually just use vanilla Shulk ONLY. Just saying that it's not completely crap.

You'll probably use this art...

1) Like what ace posted, there's a chance you might get a cheap kill with vanilla Shulk. *cough* Vision *cough*. Additionally while staying in vanilla Shulk, buster's cooldown will eventually diminish. It's not much but it's worth noting.

2) If you need to create space between you and your opponent to use a Monado art, you're gonna be forced to stay in this stance

... Hm... That's all I can think of :|

I'm not feeling it

Let me help your feels.
When we hypothetically discuss about Shulk as if he never had Monado Arts, Vanilla Shulk is a decent character, arguably above-decent with his move-set that reminds me of an ice cream sundae. You apply the Monado Arts to Shulk's game-play, & it makes the dish taste better with the assorted chocolate syrup, sprinkles, M&M's, or almonds / nuts. The Arts are our preference of taste, it just varies when you wanna have that certain taste to Vanilla Shulk. . .

The Arts literally change Shulk's play-style & character traits. Playing Vanilla Shulk for me, would be borderline trolling my opponent if I were to never proc any Arts at all, which is what I may be doing in the near future. I enjoy handicapping myself, & honestly playing Vanilla Shulk at first before getting used to any of his Arts may be in our best interests if we were to master playing the character. So again, the Arts are what add flavor to your game-play-style, but until then, lets all scream for ice cream.

Here's a grand finals set in Japan between a Diddy and a Shulk. I am not certain of the skill of these players but they do seem halfway decent. Just to see Monado Arts in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2otKszSluc&app=desktop

Nice! I agree that they're knowledgeable of the characters somewhat, & that's good enough for how early we are into Sm4sh's metagame. One thing I did not like about his usage of Arts was his unneeded Buster Art in the beginning, causing him to be racked up to 50-ish% thanks to the Buster's setback. I was impressed with his snap-decisions activating Jump off-stage when recovering, as the aerial horizontal mobility gained from the Art basically helps you avoid Edge-guarding, & when he used Jump to edge-guard against Diddy. I also noticed him using Speed to get in close for dash grabs, but he whiffed some.

The people who state that Jump is useful for recovery are failing to see the bigger picture. It's important to keep in mind Shulk's recovery in most situations is already pretty decent, so committing to switching to Jump for extra recovery likely isn't going to help you much, if at all. However...

The BEST time to use Jump is specifically to edgeguard, when having its properties expands your range of influence offstage.

The small picture upfront was telling us the shared common idea what Jump would be used for. But you're right, the bigger picture of Jump is a lot more to it than just defensively recovering back to the stage. Although It's undeniable that Jump overall excels our in-total recovery:

• Increases our horizontal mobility = The biggest reason why Jump is so good recovering, not really needing the DJ or Air Slash
• Increases our Double Jump height = Second biggest reason
• Increases our Air Slash's initial first jump, & a little boost to the second 'hop' = The icing on our recovery cake

The most favored time to use Jump is for aggressively edge-guarding, since even the SH is a huge aerial cover & the FH covers for when opponents will use their DJ or a Special recovery move instead. I believe that the 2nd best time to use Jump is when chasing airborne launched targets since Speed Shulk's horizontal mobility is off the charts.

 

[Berserker.]

Nice! I agree that they're knowledgeable of the characters somewhat, & that's good enough for how early we are into Sm4sh's metagame. One thing I did not like about his usage of Arts was his unneeded Buster Art in the beginning, causing him to be racked up to 50-ish% thanks to the Buster's setback. I was impressed with his snap-decisions activating Jump off-stage when recovering, as the aerial horizontal mobility gained from the Art basically helps you avoid Edge-guarding, & when he used Jump to edge-guard against Diddy. I also noticed him using Speed to get in close for dash grabs, but he whiffed some.

To add to that...

Well, other than too much use of buster, I think starting out with jump might not be a bad idea against Diddy (Or speed). Additionally, it looks like he forgot to use shield at high percentages. He went too insane with Buster. That's all I can say

 

[Masonomace]

To add to that...

Well, other than too much use of buster, I think starting out with jump might not be a bad idea against Diddy (Or speed). Additionally, it looks like he forgot to use shield at high percentages. He went too insane with Buster. That's all I can say

The times Buster was used at high % when Shulk had the lead, were great times to choose that alternative, at those moments imo, the two favored Arts to use when taking a stock off from someone when at high %, is to proc Shield for stock tanking, or Buster for dealing as much damage before losing the leading stock.
However, yeah the huge amount of Buster used when he was behind was a risk he / she was willing to take, which definitely did not help as shown from that set.

Jump against Diddy seemed like a decent Art to proc in Neutral game, since falling N-airs looked promising, assuming they're spaced ofc to prevent getting shield-grabbed. Other than that, Speed may have been legit too.

 

[Berserker.]

That video was a good demonstration on what happens when you get too crazy with buster. As much as we love the damage buff it gives, we're better off dealing normal damage with jump or even with the slightly reduced damage with speed. The mobility boost jump and speed gives is actually a lot more beneficial for Shulk's offense and defense than we initially thought. Oh and, seriously, why does everyone leave shield alone?

Still, props to the Shulk (And the Diddy). They both had great matches

 

[Masonomace]

That video was a good demonstration on what happens when you get too crazy with buster. As much as we love the damage buff it gives, we're better off dealing normal damage with jump or even with the slightly reduced damage with speed. The mobility boost jump and speed gives is actually a lot more beneficial for Shulk's offense and defense than we initially thought. Oh and, seriously, why does everyone leave shield alone?

Still, props to the Shulk (And the Diddy). They both had great matches

Indeed, there's a few moves worth using in Buster mode that I noticed from this video:

1. Shulk's wake-up attack against Marth being a mid-light-weight fighter, did 10% & enough hit-stun pushing Marth back for it to be safe.
2. Shulk doing a grab Bthrow, being a 2-hit throw dealing an initial 3%, then thrusting Monado out doing 13% more, with that given position & launch power, it was safe.
3. At 3:29 Shulk's Jab3 slash did do 6%, but given the knock-back dealt & the recovery time Marth had after the hit, he could of shielded or dodge-roll the FSmash to avoid that two-hit attack of 8% + 12%, proceeding to punish.

So given that Jab1, 2, & 3 are unsafe early game, his tilts being unsafe early game, even a smash move used early game is relatively sketchy to throw out especially since none of Shulk's Smashes recover very quickly. . .Shulk in Buster mode will often lose trades even if they deal a good load of % at first.

The only moves I noticed being safe while in Buster mode, were throws & aerials. That's, almost a cripple to early game if we want those certain moves fished for to deal tons of safe damage. If I wanted to focus solely on my grab-game, I'd stick with Speed for those punishing dash grabs despite the attack debuff, or Jump for the awesome coverage we get with aerials, throws leading into airborne combos.

 

[Berserker.]

Indeed, there's a few moves worth using in Buster mode that I noticed from this video:

1. Shulk's wake-up attack against Marth being a mid-light-weight fighter, did 10% & enough hit-stun pushing Marth back for it to be safe.
2. Shulk doing a grab Bthrow, being a 2-hit throw dealing an initial 3%, then thrusting Monado out doing 13% more, with that given position & launch power, it was safe.
3. At 3:29 Shulk's Jab3 slash did do 6%, but given the knock-back dealt & the recovery time Marth had after the hit, he could of shielded or dodge-roll the FSmash to avoid that two-hit attack of 8% + 12%, proceeding to punish.

So given that Jab1, 2, & 3 are unsafe early game, his tilts being unsafe early game, even a smash move used early game is relatively sketchy to throw out especially since none of Shulk's Smashes recover very quickly. . .Shulk in Buster mode will often lose trades even if they deal a good load of % at first.

The only moves I noticed being safe while in Buster mode, were throws & aerials. That's, almost a cripple to early game if we want those certain moves fished for to deal tons of safe damage. If I wanted to focus solely on my grab-game, I'd stick with Speed for those punishing dash grabs despite the attack debuff, or Jump for the awesome coverage we get with aerials, throws leading into airborne combos.

Actually, now I think about it.... Punishing with Buster isn't really a bad idea. I think it's pretty clear that Shulk's rushdown (buster and vanilla) is not really that great but what about playing defensively with Shulk instead? Like, punishing with Shulk? I think if you play patiently with buster, you can get a lot of damage out of it instead of just reducing your damage (with monado speed) output so that rushing down opponents is much more doable

Getting too aggressive with buster with Shulk's moves that are mostly on the slow side can result to you taking a lot of damage if you're not careful... I can see a lot of players (myself included) get reckless

 

[Masonomace]

Actually, now I think about it.... Punishing with Buster isn't really a bad idea. I think it's pretty clear that Shulk's rushdown (buster and vanilla) is not really that great but what about playing defensively with Shulk instead? Like, punishing with Shulk? I think if you play patiently with buster, you can get a lot of damage out of it instead of just reducing your damage (with monado speed) output so that rushing down opponents is much more doable

Indeed that Defensive Buster would be a more subtle play-style than the offensive alternative, half of the time that is. Using pivot grabs with the strongest % dealing throws with fair amount of cooldown frames or possibly having frame advantage, would make Buster's grab-game more solidifying in Neutral game. I'd rather not use tilts, but between using tilts, smashes, & jab, I'd prefer to use pivoted tilts like Ftilt & Dtilt, or Utilt if that's good. Even a grab setup while Buster's active, Uthrow to Utilt is around 20%, which is big. So yeah, Defensive Buster sounds like a swell thing. "Don't get hit" to add to it makes any lead gets an even bigger of a lead, even a 50% deficit for the opponent if done right.

 

[Berserker.]

Indeed that Defensive Buster would be a more subtle play-style than the offensive alternative, half of the time that is. Using pivot grabs with the strongest % dealing throws with fair amount of cooldown frames or possibly having frame advantage, would make Buster's grab-game more solidifying in Neutral game. I'd rather not use tilts, but between using tilts, smashes, & jab, I'd prefer to use pivoted tilts like Ftilt & Dtilt, or Utilt if that's good. Even a grab setup while Buster's active, Uthrow to Utilt is around 20%, which is big. So yeah, Defensive Buster sounds like a swell thing. "Don't get hit" to add to it makes any lead gets an even bigger of a lead, even a 50% deficit for the opponent if done right.

I wonder how much does Uthrow-Utilt-Air slash deal when maximized..... Fun fact, when you grab and your art is ready, it will still activate, so maybe starting with neutral Shulk (with no defense reduction) then readying for a grab might not sound like a bad idea. You can ready your buster mode then grab the opponent then use u-throw to u-tilt combo once it activates

 

[Masonomace]

I wonder how much does Uthrow-Utilt-Air slash deal when maximized..... Fun fact, when you grab and your art is ready, it will still activate, so maybe starting with neutral Shulk (with no defense reduction) then readying for a grab might not sound like a bad idea. You can ready your buster mode then grab the opponent then use u-throw to u-tilt combo once it activates

Based off EWNetwork's video of Shulk showcasing the % damage dealt with Vanilla Shulk in Training Mode, Utilt does 7% side-by-side someone, while dealing 6% to airborne targets hit by the Monado. Uthrow does an initial 2% hit by the blade, then another 4% hit by the beam knock them upward.

Spoiler: Math that could be wrong

Aero's Damage formula to calculate Buster mode for Utilt would be:
Damage = b × m × s × c

b = base damage = 6% being the hit most likely to land a follow-up after Uthrow
m = monado stance multiplier = +40% aka 1.4x
s = stale multiplier = fresh due to Training Mode = 1.05

Multiply it all together, Buster mode's Utilt would = 8.8%
Taking the same principle for Uthrow, Buster mode would calculate it to be:
Damage = b × m × s × c

b = base damage = 2% initial blade hit, then 4% beam hit = 6%
m = monado stance multiplier = +40% aka 1.4x
s = stale multiplier = fresh due to Training Mode = 1.05

Multiply it all together, & it would be 8.8%

So the short answer to how much a Uthrow > Utilt would do, estimated it would deal almost 20%

Note: Apparently Shulk's pummel fresh deals 3%. Buster increases the pummel to 4.4%. So, Grab > Pummel > Uthrow > Utilt = At most 22%

EDIT: So actually, now realizing pummels do more in Buster mode, if their % is at a range of 20% - 40%, then 2 or 3 pummels in between grabbing & throwing would rack up a lot more %.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster damage output

Neutral combo: (3-5/3-4/6-7) 12-16%
F-tilt: 16-18%
U-tilt: 10% (Side by side)
Uncharged f-smash: (7-8/15-18) 23-26%
Uncharged d-smash: 12-16%
N-air: 9%
F-air: 8-9%
B-air: 13%
D-air: 20%
U-special: (6-8) 14%
B-throw: (2/3-12/13) 14/16%
Ledge attack: 10%

All based from Shulk footage

Shulk's tilts need more love. Lol. They actually look fast and have good range. Especially f-tilt and d-tilt. They need more usage instead of temptingly spamming smash attacks (which are all pretty unsafe)

 

[Masonomace]

Buster damage output

Neutral combo: (3-5/3-4/6-7) 12-16%
F-tilt: 16-18%
U-tilt: 10% (Side by side)
Uncharged f-smash: (7-8/15-18) 23-26%
Uncharged d-smash: 12-16%
N-air: 9%
F-air: 8-9%
B-air: 13%
D-air: 20%
U-special: (6-8) 14%
B-throw: (2/3-12/13) 14/16%
Ledge attack: 10%

All based from Shulk footage

This pleases me, especially that I know B-throw is the rack-up% throw, & Uthrow / Dthrow are the combo throws, mostly Uthrow > U-moves, & Dthrow following up with a F-air or N-air.

I just have to know Vanilla Shulk's base KB values for his tilts & Smashes so that I know exactly which ones to use in Buster mode, because if I didn't ask for the entire frame data, I'd be completely content using FSmash.

If U-tilt can be inputted ahead of time for a read on someone's roll, then juggling U-tilts could be eggstremely dangerous for that poor soul about to be whaled on by U-tilt x4. . . . . . .Man. . .Basically 40%? From 4 moves? Done. *Goes to the Q&A*

 

[Berserker.]

This pleases me, especially that I know B-throw is the rack-up% throw, & Uthrow / Dthrow are the combo throws, mostly Uthrow > U-moves, & Dthrow following up with a F-air or N-air.

I just have to know Vanilla Shulk's base KB values for his tilts & Smashes so that I know exactly which ones to use in Buster mode, because if I didn't ask for the entire frame data, I'd be completely content using FSmash.

If U-tilt can be inputted ahead of time for a read on someone's roll, then juggling U-tilts could be eggstremely dangerous for that poor soul about to be whaled on by U-tilt x4. . . . . . .Man. . .Basically 40%? From 4 moves? Done. *Goes to the Q&A*

F-air's damage and N-air's damage are surprisingly low. Lol. At least they're quick attacks

U-tilt's hitbox is quite weird. It does NOT reach behind him. Just at his front and on top of him. It's like n-air on ground in motion

 

[Masonomace]

F-air's damage and N-air's damage are surprisingly low. Lol. At least they're quick attacks

U-tilt's hitbox is quite weird. It does NOT reach behind him. Just at his front and on top of him. It's like n-air on ground in motion
View attachment 25647 View attachment 25648

They really are. For Buster's importance, F-air & N-air are not much more than spaced thrown-out aerials to keep up a wall or land with. I will definitely prefer U-air & B-air over them during Buster's proc.

And damn at U-tilt's range. It's cooldown is relatively fast, & the start-up is godlike. I am totally fine with it not reaching behind at all.

 

[Berserker.]

They really are. For Buster's importance, F-air & N-air are not much more than spaced thrown-out aerials to keep up a wall or land with. I will definitely prefer U-air & B-air over them during Buster's proc.

And damn at U-tilt's range. It's cooldown is relatively fast, & the start-up is godlike. I am totally fine with it not reaching behind at all.

I don't know. I was expecting a bit more but that explanation will suffice

That reminds me, f-tilt is beast with smash and buster activated. Just gonna throw that out there. D-tilt needs more researching. Seriously, it's rarely used...

 

[Masonomace]

I don't know. I was expecting a bit more but that explanation will suffice

That reminds me, f-tilt is beast with smash and buster activated. Just gonna throw that out there. D-tilt needs more researching. Seriously, it's rarely used...

True, D-tilt & U-tilt do 6%, while U-tilt's close-range hit-box does 7% instead.
Vanilla F-tilt fresh = 10%
Buster = 14.4%
F-tilt tilted downward outdoes D-tilt & tilted upward hitting the opponent in front of them beats U-tilt in terms of % damage. The F-tilt input itself doesn't compare to the start-up or the cooldown the other tilts have, or their hit-box range be low sweeping or high anti-air, but that doesn't mean much since Forward tilt = forward coverage.

D-tilt needs to be used similar to Marth using his D-tilt. Poking them down, sweeping their lower hurt-box. I agree that D-tilt needs more fame, to my eyes it's becoming underrated & this is the Smash installment that was told to be more ground-based with tilts in the metagame.

EDIT: So far, until I become updated with information pertaining to Shulk, this is a briefing of what I'll prefer:

Buster mode

• Preferred Jab = None.
• Preferred tilt = F-tilt most of the time / U-tilt for juggling
• Preferred smash = F-Smash
• Preferred special = Buster Art (duh)
• Preferred aerial = To Be Announced. It's a 3-way tie between B-air, D-air, & U-air. Probably D-air or U-air.
• Preferred throw = B-throw
• Preferred Jab1 2 & 3, or Pummels = Pummels

 

[GamerGuy09]

Does anyone else know f these symbols change in the English version?

 

[Berserker.]

Does anyone else know f these symbols change in the English version?

They don't

True, D-tilt & U-tilt do 6%, while U-tilt's close-range hit-box does 7% instead.
Vanilla F-tilt fresh = 10%
Buster = 14.4%.

Actually, vanilla f-tilt does 16-18% (17% to be exact in the linked footage) damage

http://youtu.be/YlUmvn_Aod0?t=57s

81% to 98%

I think vanilla F-tilt has a range of 10-12%

 

[Masonomace]

They don't

Actually, vanilla f-tilt does 16-18% (17% to be exact in the linked footage) damage

http://youtu.be/YlUmvn_Aod0?t=57s

81% to 98%

Oi Oi Oi, then maybe this could mean F-tilt has at least two different % outputs. One being the very tip of Monado's Beam portion, & Two being closer to Shulk when swinging his Monado blade, making the blade portion stronger. So I'm going to assume this being true for a moment, that blade portion = Buster's profit, for now.

 

[Berserker.]

Oi Oi Oi, then maybe this could mean F-tilt has at least two different % outputs. One being the very tip of Monado's Beam portion, & Two being closer to Shulk when swinging his Monado blade, making the blade portion stronger. So I'm going to assume this being true for a moment, that blade portion = Buster's profit, for now.

To be fair, if you adjust f-tilt's vanilla damage from 10 to 12 then multiply it by 1.4, you get 16.6

But I'm not so sure if f-tilt in vanilla stance is capable of dealing 12% damage

If it really does have a sweet spot on the beam portion then it doesn't really chance much since spacing with Shulk was sort of the main and important strategy. Lol.

 

[Masonomace]

To be fair, if you adjust f-tilt's vanilla damage from 10 to 12 then multiply it by 1.4, you get 16.6

But I'm not so sure if f-tilt in vanilla stance is capable of dealing 12% damage

If it really does have a sweet spot on the beam portion then it doesn't really chance much since spacing with Shulk was sort of the main and important strategy. Lol.

Hmm, I saw from EWNetwork's video of showcasing Shulk, a vanilla fresh F-tilt dealt 10% from the very tip of the beam portion. Based on half of Shulk's slash attacks having a two-hit property to them, I feel it may be possible Shulk would have a blade-portion hit-box on his F-tilt, though I'm not expecting it to be, since his other tilts don't seem to have that property at all. I'm holding out hope atm for blade-box properties. Maybe the blade portion of his tilts deal more damage augmented by the Smash mode, & knock-back unlike his Smashes dealing more damage & knock-back from the Monado's beam.

 

[Berserker.]

Hmm, I saw from EWNetwork's video of showcasing Shulk, a vanilla fresh F-tilt dealt 10% from the very tip of the beam portion. Based on half of Shulk's slash attacks having a two-hit property to them, I feel it may be possible Shulk would have a blade-portion hit-box on his F-tilt, though I'm not expecting it to be, since his other tilts don't seem to have that property at all. I'm holding out hope atm for blade-box properties. Maybe the blade portion of his tilts deal more damage augmented by the Smash mode, & knock-back unlike his Smashes dealing more damage & knock-back from the Monado's beam.

I'd love to know but I think it's gonna be difficult to know as of now. If it really dealt 10% damage then the only possible way it could deal 17% damage with buster activated is if f-tilt has some sort of hidden sweet spot or it's capable of doing 12% damage maximum. I'm guessing the latter

But argh... We'll find out in 12 days

 

[Chauzu]

But argh... We'll find out in 12 days

No need, I tested it for you.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%

And by "not tip" I mean a pretty large area where you are closer to the opponent, like next to it, or close enough that you don't hit with tip.

 

[Masonomace]

I'd love to know but I think it's gonna be difficult to know as of now. If it really dealt 10% damage then the only possible way it could deal 17% damage with buster activated is if f-tilt has some sort of hidden sweet spot or it's capable of doing 12% damage maximum. I'm guessing the latter

But argh... We'll find out in 12 days

Well, I was looking around for videos to see if F-tilt changed its damage output or not, & found THIS.

Spoiler: Tilt comparison

This is right before swings his Monado blade to do an F-tilt input. He's more closer than he needs to be if he were to be spacing himself for a swinging hit.

is relatively close to here, & uses a fresh F-tilt dealing 13% at the very tip of the blade, not the beam as is touching the blade's tip, & inside the beam extension. See here:

Here we see a whiffed F-tilt, but notice how the beam barely comes in contact with Mii Fighter, while seeing the blade portion in a side-view frame moment:

And now here's when the tip of the blade hits, dealing 10% fresh like we talked about earlier. Notice that the blade's tip isn't touching Mii Fighter, but the tip of the beam does:

Summary: Basically I'm confident now that there is two separate hit-boxes, being the blade & beam portions. The blunt attack of the Monado blade itself deals more base damage than the beam does in this case pertaining to F-tilt. So involving Buster mode, F-tilt at close range may be risky, but early game landing a fresh meaty F-tilt would deal at most 18%, & the beam-box fresh would deal 14%. Both our inputs on F-tilt from two perspectives both feel correct, & the only explanation I can give for this reasoning behind it is F-tilt having two types of hit-boxes, Beam & Blade.

EDIT: Darn you Maintenanceboards. 'd

 

[Berserker.]

No need, I tested it for you.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%

And by "not tip" I mean a pretty large area where you are closer to the opponent, like next to it, or close enough that you don't hit with tip.

Thanks for the testing, Chauzu

This probably applies for all of Shulk's attacks, no? If that's the case, you think that spacing will still be the best strategy for Shulk despite the decreased damage on the tip? My guess as of now, it's fine either way whether you hit base or tip. Taking advantage of Shulk's range is important. Plus, 14% damage is still great

Well, I was looking around for videos to see if F-tilt changed its damage output or not, & found THIS.

Spoiler: Tilt comparison

This is right before swings his Monado blade to do an F-tilt input. He's more closer than he needs to be if he were to be spacing himself for a swinging hit.

is relatively close to here, & uses a fresh F-tilt dealing 13% at the very tip of the blade, not the beam as is touching the blade's tip, & inside the beam extension. See here:

Here we see a whiffed F-tilt, but notice how the beam barely comes in contact with Mii Fighter, while seeing the blade portion in a side-view frame moment:

And now here's when the tip of the blade hits, dealing 10% fresh like we talked about earlier. Notice that the blade's tip isn't touching Mii Fighter, but the tip of the beam does:

Summary: Basically I'm confident now that there is two separate hit-boxes, being the blade & beam portions. The blunt attack of the Monado blade itself deals more base damage than the beam does in this case pertaining to F-tilt. So involving Buster mode, F-tilt at close range may be risky, but early game landing a fresh meaty F-tilt would deal at most 18%, & the beam-box fresh would deal 14%. Both our inputs on F-tilt from two perspectives both feel correct, & the only explanation I can give for this reasoning behind it is F-tilt having two types of hit-boxes, Beam & Blade.

Chauzu went first. Lol. But thanks

 

[Masonomace]

No need, I tested it for you.

Fresh vanilla f-tilt tip: 10%
Fresh vanilla f-tilt not tip: 12%
Fresh buster f-tilt tip: 14%
Fresh buster f-tilt not tip: 16%

And by "not tip" I mean a pretty large area where you are closer to the opponent, like next to it, or close enough that you don't hit with tip.

Radical, did you happen to test if this applies with his D-tilt? I'm fairly sure U-tilt isn't affected by tipped or non-tipped properties with the exception fighters are right in front of him, or perhaps right behind Shulk?. . .

 

[Chauzu]

Fresh vanilla u-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla u-tilt not tip: 7%
Fresh buster u-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster u-tilt not tip: 9%

Same values go for when you hit from behind.

Fresh vanilla d-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla d-tilt not tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt not tip: 11%

And something I forgot about Shield Monado - it basically makes Shulk's recovery Little Mac tier so it's pretty balanced lol.

If only Back Slash would grab the ledge...

 

[Berserker.]

Fresh vanilla u-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla u-tilt not tip: 7%
Fresh buster u-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster u-tilt not tip: 9%

Same values go for when you hit from behind.

Fresh vanilla d-tilt tip: 6%
Fresh vanilla d-tilt not tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt tip: 8%
Fresh buster d-tilt not tip: 11%

And something I forgot about Shield Monado - it basically makes Shulk's recovery Little Mac tier so it's pretty balanced lol.

If only Back Slash would grab the ledge...

Thanks for the info again, Chauzu!

Weird, U-tilt did 10% damage in the Shulk vs Villager footage I saw.... Maybe it makes a difference against grounded opponents. Masonomace said something about it dealing less damage against air borne opponents. Can you try it out? If you feel like it. I'm not gonna force you

Edit:

At the :22 mark

 

[Masonomace]

Thanks for the info again, Chauzu!

Weird, U-tilt did 10% damage in the Shulk vs Villager footage I saw.... Maybe it makes a difference against grounded opponents. Masonomace said something about it dealing less damage against air borne opponents. Can you try it out? If you feel like it. I'm not gonna force you

Edit:

At the :22 mark

WOAH! I remember seeing this.
Buster mode > grab > B-throw 16% > uncharged FSmash 23% = Hotness 39%. . .Is. . .Is that a true combo?? I don't want to believe it, but I'd much rather prefer that Buster grab combo than Uthrow U-tilts!

Fresh U-tilt did do 10% when Villager did a wake-up from the ledge, followed by a fresh Buster F-tilt dealing 18%, followed by a 2nd F-tilt dealing 16%. The third F-tilt occurred around 0:59 dealing 9%, but it was a vanilla tilt.

 

[Berserker.]

WOAH! I remember seeing this.
Buster mode > grab > B-throw 16% > uncharged FSmash 23% = Hotness 39%. . .Is. . .Is that a true combo?? I don't want to believe it, but I'd much rather prefer that Buster grab combo than Uthrow U-tilts!

Fresh U-tilt did do 10% when Villager did a wake-up from the ledge, followed by a fresh Buster F-tilt dealing 18%, followed by a 2nd F-tilt dealing 16%. The third F-tilt occurred around 0:59 dealing 9%, but it was a vanilla tilt.

I'm not sure on how to judge it. I tried to put the video speed to 0.25 speed. I think it's a true combo? But for a second, I felt like the Villager could actually shield... I'm not too sure