Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

[-ACE-]

MikeHaggarTHAKJB How much experience would you say you've had with putting notches controllers and using them?

K1KK0M4N it's not just the profit, he is effectively changing the melee competitive standard and seems surprised that there is any opposition. Opposition isn't necessarily bad, and exists even when change is good, lol. Profit is just extra motive for him to try to convince as many people as possible that the difficult tech in melee is not a challenge, but a nuisance that came out of nowhere. He admitted that he's biased but if someone else says he's biased they're a bad guy, so watch what you say.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

MikeHaggarTHAKJB How much experience would you say you've had with putting notches controllers and using them?

ALOT. I have around 25 controllers that are all picked apart. I've messed around with notches and other gate mods alot.
I'm 100% sure I suck **** at doing compared to Kadano, though. Curious to test his out.

I don't use notchmods atm. Didn't like the feel and the advantages where nearly big enough for it to be worth it. Not for me and my rough, crappy-feeling notches anyway.
I don't have trouble finding the jab cancel spot fast, and I don't have problems finding the perfect WD angle either (unless you for example want it to be EXACTLY 200 degrees every time, as opposed to somewhere between 195-205, which doesn't make a real difference in practice [note how little that actually is]. I guess other people have a harder time doing this though, just like I have a harder time doing certain techskill things that other people around my general level of techskill seem to have no problem doing).

 

[K1KK0M4N]

So you would like to have less need for tech skill practice, yet you don't welcome this development which you seem to imply could help you move into that direction. I don't understand.

I never mentioned I want less need for tech skill practice, I just stated that I don't enjoy practicing tech skill.
But I do enjoy the tech skill that I learn, and I believe I need to keep practicing it in order to improve.

And I'd def rather earn my tech skill through hard work, than pay money for a better controller than everyone else.

The 1 foot cord would become the standard within give or take half a year. A game that revolves around reaction, with the opportunity to improve input lag by 60% seems like a godsend and will instantly improve said game.
Why would you give up on such an opportunity?

What I was trying to do with my argument was so shed light on other aspects that all fit on the vast majority of the criteria that "guys opposed to mods" make.
It literally fits perfectly except they are not about the shape of the controller.
It's fine that you point that out, but it seems you missed the point or just deem it nonesense, which is fine too.

K1KK0M4N
Bro if you know anything about manual labour in this day and age you would know that doing this kind of work is not profitable.
People still do such things tho, but out of love for their craft.
I talk out of personal experience btw. I have built and sold custom rubik's cube type puzzles for a while. And believe me they require work. And lots of it.

Where I come from making mechanical improvements is happening all the time.
I was part of the competitive yoyo scene in Denmark for over 7 years. New models that would grant players an advantage came out all the time. Longer spin times, less friction, more stability.
Same goes for competetive Rubik's Cube solving.
I am used to this mind set and I am encouraging it.

Melee havent really changed at all, mechanically, since it came out.
I can see why some of you find it sacred.

"Manual labour"
Tinkering with plastic and screwdrivers.

I've done manual labour since I was 8 years old, molding myself into a professional ballet dancer. 3 hours of grueling exercise a day, 6 days a week for 12 years. All that labour granted me about 2 years of a solid income.
Today I work with weights in order to build muscle, and that muscle is my only reward. Just as tech skill is my only reward for practicing.

But now people can buy tech skill.

 

[Rachman]

I expected this thread the moment I saw Kadano make his original thread...but I didn't expect such vitriol coming from the community. Perhaps I'm foolish for expecting this but I had really hoped this discussion could be had intelligently, courteously, and with an open mind. In hindsight that is a ridiculous thing to expect from the internet and my naivety is likely due to not using online messages boards almost ever.

Anyways, as someone who has no problems shield dropping, perfect wavedashing (seriously guys this really isn't challenging unless you have years of muscle memory doing it incorrectly so I do not understand the fuss) etc I will not be banning these controllers at my tournaments for the foreseeable future. If you truly do not grasp why someone who doesn't directly benefit from these controllers wouldn't ban them then you have not been doing your homework nor have you been reading the counter-arguments with an open mind. Of course you can disagree with their legality but the assumption that the only reason someone would want these to be legal is for profit/to "buy tech skill" is laughably childish and is akin to plugging your ears and yelling your opinion increasingly louder in hopes the other person acquiesces to your point. Of course, that isn't true of all who disagree with their legality and I do very much understand the points being made but the way many seem to be going about it is ridiculous. Disagreeing or agreeing with the premise that Kadano's mods should be legal in tournament is fine but can we all please go about it in a more respectful and effective manner?

 

[Scroll]

"Excuse me lady, can I have for $10 worth of shield drops?"

K1KK0M4N
Please don't undermine what goes into craftmanship.
I have all the respect in the world for what you have done working towards your goals as a professional ballet dancer as well as the time and effort you have put into smash.
It really shows too.

Just because you dont put strains on your body does not make it worth less.

 

[-ACE-]

I think many people might be forgetting just how much depth melee has. Ever seen "The Butterfly Effect"? Virtually everything that happens in melee matters. Something so little as a phantom hit can influence the outcome of a match or set, or change someone's mindset completely. We are talking about (is not limited to) being able to DI optimally faster, being able to more confidently and more consistently perfect wavedash, and being able to more confidently and more consistently hit demanding recovery angles with fox, falco, sheik, pikachu, and others. It makes a lot if things easier both physically and mentally, as you adjust to your new confidence level and newfound higher rate of consistency with certain techs.

Keep in mind this thread isn't primarily about Kadano's notches. It's either allow notches or not, and there's no denying how a decently sized notch (like a "V" shape but rounded lets and wider than Kadano's notches) will funnel you into the perfect spot, even if you have a negligible amount of precision. All you have to do is ride the gate until it snaps into place. The question is, is this significantly different from the melee standard? Could you do the same thing with a negligible amount of precision before?

 

[TimpZ]

I'd just like to share my 2 cents.

First off normal, worn controllers are and should be legal. I don't think banning worn controllers is even feasible because of how arbitrary any sort of cut-off point would be.

Some migrate their shell when switching controllers leading to essentially round edges around the stick. I have a controller I've used for speedrunning in a game where you hold down a whole lot and it has very noticeable wear in that direction.

I don't think we should make the distinction between if the reason someone's edges are different is because of normal wear of purposeful scraping with a file. Even if we did it'd be very hard to prove one or the other in a tournament setting.

If you agree with the above points, then you agree that some of Kadano's modifications should be tournament legal including easier shielddrops.


When it comes to the notches I personally think that having extra ones won't give you any real advantage in a tournament anyway. Thinking they help is placebo to me because while it may help you getting some hard angles they simultaneously limit the angles available to you. If you're trying to sweetspot a ledge you might miss it because you hit the notch instead of being able to aim properly. Also your opponent could notice that your "hard-to-hit-angles" are always the same making you predictable. In the end adding notches is like having helping wheels on a bike; they make some things easier but you have better control if you learn to bike properly without them.

In any case extra notches are easy to spot in a tournament setting and a TO could easily say that they will or won't be legal in his/her tournament so I think that's up to the TO's discretion.

When it comes to lowering buttons and the like... I honestly don't care so I don't have much to say about it.

 

[-ACE-]

If you're trying to sweetspot a ledge you might miss it because you hit the notch instead of being able to aim properly. Also your opponent could notice that your "hard-to-hit-angles" are always the same making you predictable.

If you're not used to the notch, sure. I think we're all in agreement that it would take a certain amount of practice to get used to a change in the gate. And if you're predictable, you're predictable. The notches give you more options to use, given the new consistency in tech and the confidence that comes with it (altering the risk vs reward dynamic of the game). Not talking about shield drops.

 

[TimpZ]

The notches give you more options to use

This is exactly what I disagree with. By adding a notch through filing you're limiting the number of angles available to you since all the angles close to the notch would default to the one set by the notch. It's like a fretless guitar vs. a normal guitar, which offers you more notes? (disregarding bends)

When you add a notch it's sort of the same thing though perhaps not as drastic as dedicating 36 degrees to the cardinal directions. Also when you're switching controller, not only do you have to get used to the controller itself but also you'd have to get used to the new notches that were tailor made for that specific controller since it's not a mod that carries between controllers very well.

So yea I think the usefulness of notches is exaggerated and that in 5 years time only a very few number of notable people will use it even if it's allowed.

EDIT: I've yet to see character specific techs that are made easier or even trivial with certain new notches but I'm probably not well-informed either.

 

[-ACE-]

TimpZ If perfect wavedashing got much easier, wouldn't you do it more often, especially if you had been having trouble executing this tech consistently? If you were previously too nervous to try the tech in fear of SD, for example, but now since the tech is easier and your chances of SD'ing are lower, you use it now. This means you have an extra option. The risk/reward dynamic has been altered to the user's benefit.

 

[TimpZ]

If perfect wavedashing got much easier, wouldn't you do it more often

I don't really see how having notches would help not with SDing when wavedashing since the angle you want depends on how far from the ledge you are, further complicated by the YS ledges. And when it comes to doing it for example when waveshining then I could see how it'd be useful but at the same time the inputs and angles need to be made so quickly that I don't think the notch will have much impact. Luigi or IC mains also quite seldomly want max length WD but rather want to be accurate with them to control their spacing which notches wouldn't help them with too much. The main profit I'd see with it is wavelands but still it's so situation-dependent that I can't see how it would have a large impact.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't really see how having notches would help not with SDing when wavedashing since the angle you want depends on how far from the ledge you are, further complicated by the YS ledges. And when it comes to doing it for example when waveshining then I could see how it'd be useful but at the same time the inputs and angles need to be made so quickly that I don't think the notch will have much impact. Luigi or IC mains also quite seldomly want max length WD but rather want to be accurate with them to control their spacing which notches wouldn't help them with too much. The main profit I'd see with it is wavelands but still it's so situation-dependent that I can't see how it would have a large impact.

I said "for example" to explain the change in risk/reward dynamic. There was no intended correlation there. Use Firefox angles if you want to.

I've yet to see character specific techs that are made easier or even trivial with certain new notches but I'm probably not well-informed either.

Do you think being able to perfect wavedash more consistently would help a luigi player?

Another example:
Notches at NNE and NNW positions are optimal for survival DI for moves that exhibit an outward and slightly up trajectory, which are most tilts/smash attacks in the game, and some aerials such as Falcon's knee. Many people input straight up when slamming the stick upwards for survival DI, which is usually not optimal, it just went there because of the notch. But with a notch in the perfect spot, that mistake happens much less.

 

[-ACE-]

Dbl post

 

[TimpZ]

Do you think being able to perfect wavedash more consistently would help a luigi player?

Like I said, yes but only very marginally. Max length WD are relatively useless in yoshi's and fountain I believe since anywhere not at an edge will make you go offstage and getting offstage with "normal" WDes will have the same effect albeit a little bit slower. In other stages it's still fairly rare that max length WDes are desired since if you're fleeing you don't want to give away the whole stage and if you're approaching you want to stop at exact spots and not just mindlessly go as far as possible. Of course they do have uses but so does 95% max length as well as 60% max length etc.

So yea notches are useful for them, but it won't magically boost your tournament placing if you can increase the consistency of getting really far WDes from let's say 75% to 90% alone. Also like I said I think you're sacrificing some accuracy of doing other things like doing 2 WDes with close angles to eachother right by a notch but that might be a practice thing.

For DI, if "many people" DI an attack wrong that's on them and they'd do that even if they had more notches. Having a notch could be helpful but again I think of it more like training wheels and not something that will have much of an impact on high-level play.

 

[-ACE-]

I completely disagree with the change being marginal, and even if it was, it's unwarranted in a competitive setting.

The negative effects of someone doing nothing but maximum length wavedashes whenever he wavedashes is irrelevant. It's the fact that he has the new confidence and ability to perform it much more consistently in tournament.

We can probably stop using the "it's not magic" line by now. No one against notches is saying that.

 

[GenNyan]

I hope you people realize that it's not easier to shielddrop with a Kadano controller then it is with one that is randomly good at it. In fact, if you have EXTRA notches, it will most likely be easier to do it with a nonmodded controller that is randomly good.

I can attest to this, shield dropping with my controller took me less than a day to learn it 100% consistently. I actually own like 8 controllers (Most of them are broken in one aspect, I took most of my cousins old ones), and all except the sh*tty madcatz controller can do it easily. It seems a little ridiculous that some people might randomly have an advantage depending on they're controller, yet those who don't are not allowed to fix it.

I don't really see how having notches would help not with SDing when wavedashing since the angle you want depends on how far from the ledge you are, further complicated by the YS ledges. And when it comes to doing it for example when waveshining then I could see how it'd be useful but at the same time the inputs and angles need to be made so quickly that I don't think the notch will have much impact. Luigi or IC mains also quite seldomly want max length WD but rather want to be accurate with them to control their spacing which notches wouldn't help them with too much. The main profit I'd see with it is wavelands but still it's so situation-dependent that I can't see how it would have a large impact.

Ehh, I think it is almost undeniable that something like this would have a large impact, it might be more of a discussion on what the impact is and whether or not the impact is positive. Iirc luigi needs perfect wave dashes for some chaingrabs and even if I'm wrong it would definitely heavily benefit other characters like spacies.

 

[-ACE-]

yet those who don't are not allowed to fix it.

Like I said, the people who center stick boxes to make controllers fully functional are awesome. Not every region has someone that's willing to do it, but it's a great "mod" imo. I agree with most of what you said.

 

[Bones0]

I don't know how we circled back around to a discussion of how effective the mod is. It's totally irrelevant to the legality of a mod. There aren't many situations in Melee where a turbo function would even be that useful, but everyone agrees that they should be banned. Not because it's too good, but because it's a mod designed to gain an advantage, even if it's only a small one. Just the fact that notches allow for consistently shallow up-B angles should be enough to warrant a ban. It's hilarious how the people who are pro-mods consistently contradict themselves or each other.

"The mods make everyone more consistent so tech skill doesn't determine the winner."
Then they should be banned for fundamentally changing the game and providing players with an unfair advantage.

"The mods barely have any influence at all."
Then why are people arguing so hard to keep them legal and paying $100+ to have them done?

I'd ask which it really is, but either one is a terrible argument so it's a moot point. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how mods aren't unfair as I explained in my post on the previous page...

1. You claim notches aren't unfair because "they don't add anything you can't normally do in the game". This is simply not true, as is evident from the fact that you can't normally perfect WD or shield drop every time. Mods clearly do not accomplish the same thing as practice. By reducing how strict your stick control has to be, you can achieve a much higher rate of consistency with a lot less concern about messing up or having to focus on the tech at hand.

2. Even if it was somehow determined that you could achieve the same angle consistency without having to focus harder, it would still be unfair because all players do not have easy access to the mod. If you modded the game so that your L-cancel window was larger, it would still be unfair even though it's certainly possible for your opponent to L-cancel consistently without the mod.

3. How you interface with the game is definitely part of the game... If everyone is playing with turbo functions and macros and notches, the game is significantly changed. A good comparison is PC vs. console shooters. Anyone who thinks they are the same will be sadly mistaken when they go up against a mouse+keyboard user with an Xbox controller. The N64 community is obviously unique because they rely more on online gameplay and many players have become used to playing with keyboards. That said, I doubt keyboards are even at an advantage over controllers, and honestly if they are, they should be banned. As for the FGC, they don't have a standard controller, and I think this is again a bit of an issue. If you've never heard of Hitbox fight sticks, they replace the stick entirely with 4 buttons for up, down, left, and right. Players that use these controllers have a significant advantage when it comes to doing things like half circle inputs (it's like pressing A, S, D on a keyboard to input left, down, right). This is not only unfair to players who have been playing on sticks since the arcade days, but it alters how the game works. If you can Shoryuken a split second sooner than someone else with the same reaction time because of your controller, not only do you have a significant advantage that you didn't earn, but you fundamentally change which options are safe and which are not.

The 1 foot cord would become the standard within give or take half a year. A game that revolves around reaction, with the opportunity to improve input lag by 60% seems like a godsend and will instantly improve said game.
Why would you give up on such an opportunity?

The fatal flaw in your logic is you assume reducing input lag is an improvement the same way you have assumed a controller that can do perfect WD/up-B angles is somehow an improvement on the current one. In terms of a player trying to win, of course it's an improvement, but what about in terms of the game? You aren't considering for even a second that the game was DESIGNED to have .5 seconds of input lag, and that by changing that you are actually negatively impacting the game. All of the balance between moves that can or can't be be blocked on reaction gets thrown out of wack when you mod the game to gain a competitive edge. We could argue all day about whether this hypothetical version of the game benefits from reducing input lag, but ultimately it's a subjective stance. You can't impose major game modifications onto other players.

 

[GenNyan]

I don't know how we circled back around to a discussion of how effective the mod is. It's totally irrelevant to the legality of a mod. There aren't many situations in Melee where a turbo function would even be that useful, but everyone agrees that they should be banned. Not because it's too good, but because it's a mod designed to gain an advantage, even if it's only a small one. Just the fact that notches allow for consistently shallow up-B angles should be enough to warrant a ban. It's hilarious how the people who are pro-mods consistently contradict themselves or each other.

"The mods make everyone more consistent so tech skill doesn't determine the winner."
Then they should be banned for fundamentally changing the game and providing players with an unfair advantage.

"The mods barely have any influence at all."
Then why are people arguing so hard to keep them legal and paying $100+ to have them done?

I'd ask which it really is, but either one is a terrible argument so it's a moot point. I'm still waiting for someone to explain how mods aren't unfair as I explained in my post on the previous page...

I think the argument is getting stagnant because we keep discussing this, when the real issue is whether or not those disadvantages (Imbalance outside the game) outweigh the advantages (Those listed in OP).

This is basically all the pros/cons discussed on the thread so far. I probably left 1 or 2 out but I'm tired and its late. Also accessibility is listed as a pro and a con but its true for both so idc.

Pros of banning:

-Everbody is on a level playing field
-No "cheats/shortcuts" for practice
-No possibility for stretching the rules thin and abusing the system
-The meta will not be altered in a potentially harmful way
-Increased accessibility, because expensive modded controllers aren't the standard

Cons of banning:

1. All controllers are not created equal. As it stands, some controllers are just better than others. They may be worn in such a way that you can shield drop more easily or the stick just "feels right". Modded controllers let more people have access to controllers that feel good and let them play well.
2. Accessibility is increased. Believe it or not, there are disabled gamers among us. Some of them have disabilities that allow them to interact well with the gamecube controllers, but others (the majority) may not be able to without some technical assistance. Banning controller mods outright reduces how accessible we as a community are to people who may desperately want to participate, but can't do it through traditional methods.
3. You can improve faster. This may be a more selfish reason, but it is a valid one. Modded controllers can make a lot of tech substantially easier. As more people start, the more quickly you can get them into the meat of the game, the more interesting it is.
4. It won't instantly make anyone a top player. Modding makes a some tools more accessible with less practice. A controller mod can't teach you how to use those tools. Melee doesn't have long combo strings that you can macro, you won't win more just because you have a perfect wavedash notch or you can shield drop now more easily.
   
5. Innovation causes the meta to advance. When a lot of people suddenly have access to something that was once out of reach, new stuff gets discovered. There could be smashers out there with tremendous potential who may be stuck on some trivial skill they just can't do.
   
6. It could make our top players viable for longer. It is no secret that smash can take a toll on your hands and wrists. As our top players become more and more able to play the game they love for a living, it's important that they can keep doing so for as long as possible. If we can make it even a bit less damaging for top players to keep going, we'll be able to ensure the continuity of the game for substantially longer.
7. Melee could finally get rebindable buttons. It's been standard on every smash game after melee, and since a lot of our newer players come from smash 4 and pm, it'd be awesome to allow them to participate in a comfortable way.
8. Other fighting game communities are doing it. Games like Street Fighter and Marvel clearly have to ban macros due to the way they are designed, but not unique controllers. Fightsticks and custom pads are a decent sized cottage industry for the FGC at large and offer individuality and another route to fame for up-and-coming people in the community. Building your own sticks is almost a rite-of-passage in some communities.
9. The gamecube controller might not be the best way to play smash. As of now it's the only way that people have ever done well, but is the button layout optimal? Could we devise an even better controller for this game than we're using? If they were all banned anyway, why would there be any incentive?
10. People are already using modded controllers. Many TOs have removed rule references to modded controller legality, and loads of people remove the springs from their triggers or carve notches into their joystick frame. Some people have aesthetic mods (LEDs) or swap sticks out. Where do you draw the line between aesthetic and functional?

 

[Bones0]

Good summary, but just to respond to those points real quick since I think most are fairly weak arguments.

The first point is the only one with some credibility behind it, but it's not like Melee controller quality is so bad that good ones are super rare. I've bought about 8 controllers my entire life, and half of them were perfect and lasted several years. If 90% of controllers were absolute trash and the good ones had short lifespans I could understand wanting to mod controllers into a working state. That's super misleading to say though because notches aren't an attempt to "fix" controllers, they are actively adding features that aren't available even on the perfect standard controller. There's a reason no one is opposed to simply recentering stick boxes where they are supposed to be.

Points 3, 5, 7, and 10 are actually all drawbacks from legalizing mods except to the people who want to change the game, and again, this necessarily means you are imposing game changes on other players. Just because I decide the game is better with automatic L-cancelling doesn't mean I can just start turning it on in tournament. It doesn't matter how many people agree with me that automatic L-cancelling is better because it's not how the game was designed.

2, 4, and 6 are basically unrelated to notches.

8 and 9 are totally irrelevant since other FGs have not had a widespread standard for 14 years like Melee has. The controller obviously isn't the best conceivable controller for Smash, but it's what the game was designed for and theoretically "optimal" controllers will never have widespread availability, thus they'll always be unfair.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Like I said, the people who center stick boxes to make controllers fully functional are awesome. Not every region has someone that's willing to do it, but it's a great "mod" imo. I agree with most of what you said.

What exactly is this mod?

The first point is the only one with some credibility behind it, but it's not like Melee controller quality is so bad that good ones are super rare. I've bought about 8 controllers my entire life, and half of them were perfect and lasted several years. If 90% of controllers were absolute trash and the good ones had short lifespans I could understand wanting to mod controllers into a working state.

Tons of people, including myself, super disagree with this.
Getting a controller with easy axe/sung shielddrops in both directions AND easy smashturns, easy reverse utilts, good reverse bs, etc is rare AF.
Only one of these aspects is fixable via modding the gate, though.

 

[-ACE-]

What exactly is this mod?

It's not really a "mod" per se, you're just changing the position of the stick box until you can shield drop on both sides. This doesn't make up for lack if sensitivity in the dash backwards department, but similarly to bones, I've owned around 15+ controllers, and ones that are acceptable for tournament are simply not that rare. Actually 4 out of 6 white ones I've owned were good for shield dropping and dashing (smash turning) backwards. Actually 5 of 6 could dash backwards well. Good old amazon. The non-white were not as good. It was hard to find a black/orange/purple one that can do it all. Maybe half of those were ok in my experience. I have never used a sm4sh controller.

I tested dash sensitivity by chaingrabbing falco with Ganon. You have to start jc grabbing over 65% for full DI behind. Aside from the fast reaction time it requires, you MUST smash turn. I'd probably say overall 1/4 to 1/3 of the controllers I've come across can't do it.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I own about 30 controllers. Imo most are ****. But I'm also a spoiled little princess when it comes to controllers.
My main problem is dashing in the opposite direction. But faceplate mods like the ones Kadano do obviously does not affect that.
Non-white ones tend to suck ass at shielddropping, even though this is because of the octagon for the older controllers is slightly different than the JP white ones. Stickboxes are the same for almost all controllers, it's a common misconception that it's different depending on the type (purple/black, white, sm4sh).
the 1st and 2nd generation stickboxes are rare AF. You can only find them in the oldest of the old purple/white/orange ones (a few of the special ones like club nintendo & whatever probably have old ones. My only wavebird has 2nd generation stickboxes)

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

I am 100% pro-modded controllers for the accessibility argument. If we aren't willing to allow handicapped people to use modded controllers, then we may as well get rid of wheelchair access ramps to tournaments.

I have mostly quit melee, because I have developed inflammatory arthritis as a symptom of Systemic Lupus, which I was diagnosed with earlier this year. My joints in my hands have progressively gotten worse, and it's painful for me to depress the shoulder triggers. If legal, I'd just modify the springs a bit to ease the tension, but I've had to back out of competition because using my tourney un-modded controller kills my hands.

Increasing accessibility, in my opinion, would mostly make our community stronger and even more competitive.

I do think there should be certain limitations, but within reason.

 

[-ACE-]

Pawls to the Wall It's not like we're going to restrict broly bro

 

[Comet7]

I'm not sure where I stand in this, but I want to ask this question: How are notches unfair for players who practiced for Mango knows how long? Is the game supposed to require tech to be playable? <-- That's a rhetoric question, just something I think people should keep in mind. Is having to grind out tech an outdated view, as in, should players be required to practice the same way as others did 10 years ago? Is this just a flaw of the game? Should players be turned away because they use tools that are only recently available?

Actually, I my opinion for at least the next 5 minutes is this: Controller notches are probably a bad idea, depending on the validity of which of the following is more unfair: tech skill floors or automatic tech skill "advantage".

I say advantage because there are tons of factors that impact tech skill at given moments. I consider myself an improving scrub in the sea of players, and one of my many faults is that I have awful nerves when playing important matches. With or without notches, I'm NOT going to perform the perfect ledgedash or whatever the difficult tech is. ...But, would it be okay for me to hire somebody for X amount of money to help me deal with those nerves, when somebody next to me would have the same problem, just without the money to do what I hypothetically did?

I do, however, think that easily accessible mods shouldn't be banned (stuff like removing springs, which just requires a triwing screwdriver which is $5). If they are banned, then people will either do it anyway or not participate in tournaments, which after a bunch of steps, is very bad.

 

[Bones0]

I am 100% pro-modded controllers for the accessibility argument. If we aren't willing to allow handicapped people to use modded controllers, then we may as well get rid of wheelchair access ramps to tournaments.

I have mostly quit melee, because I have developed inflammatory arthritis as a symptom of Systemic Lupus, which I was diagnosed with earlier this year. My joints in my hands have progressively gotten worse, and it's painful for me to depress the shoulder triggers. If legal, I'd just modify the springs a bit to ease the tension, but I've had to back out of competition because using my tourney un-modded controller kills my hands.

Increasing accessibility, in my opinion, would mostly make our community stronger and even more competitive.

I do think there should be certain limitations, but within reason.

The accessibility argument affects less than 1% of Smashers. TOs can easily make judgement calls on allowing handicapped players to use custom controllers without also allowing the majority of players to use them. The key issue that keeps coming up is people are using mods to gain an advantage, but that's clearly not the case with handicapped people. They are just trying to get on equal footing, and often aren't able to achieve even that no matter what kind of controller is available to them.

 

[Santeria]

I just don't want to feel like I have to pay a crap ton of money for a modded controller. If top players aren't using them why should we?

 

[-ACE-]

I just don't want to feel like I have to pay a crap ton of money for a modded controller. If top players aren't using them why should we?

They are using them. Money is on the line and there is no rule against any notches as of right now, so they're just trying to get the same edge as everyone else. Plus they can afford it easily lol.

 

[Sutekh]

I just don't want to feel like I have to pay a crap ton of money for a modded controller. If top players aren't using them why should we?

It's not a huge expense, you can do it yourself for next to nothing. They only way it's gonna be costly is if you're paying someone else to make a ton of adjustments for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with notching. As a matter of fact, I think that it could help the meta evolve. If more players were able to hit certain angles with more consistency, perhaps we could see other characters creeping into the top tiers? More Luigi mains perhaps?

Notching is not something that is unavailable to the majority of players; pretty much anyone who is willing to put in the time can do it themselves. It doesn't allow you to do anything that your controller couldn't do otherwise, it simply allows you to be more consistent in certain circumstances. I don't see why we should be so adamant in handicapping ourselves to the arbitrary standard of an "unmodded" controller, which as it has been stated before, are not all created equally anyways.

 

[Bones0]

It's not a huge expense, you can do it yourself for next to nothing. They only way it's gonna be costly is if you're paying someone else to make a ton of adjustments for you.

I don't think there is anything wrong with notching. As a matter of fact, I think that it could help the meta evolve. If more players were able to hit certain angles with more consistency, perhaps we could see other characters creeping into the top tiers? More Luigi mains perhaps?

Notching is not something that is unavailable to the majority of players; pretty much anyone who is willing to put in the time can do it themselves. It doesn't allow you to do anything that your controller couldn't do otherwise, it simply allows you to be more consistent in certain circumstances. I don't see why we should be so adamant in handicapping ourselves to the arbitrary standard of an "unmodded" controller, which as it has been stated before, are not all created equally anyways.

It doesn't help the meta evolve, it changes the meta entirely. The fact that people realize notches can affect the balance of the game to the point that certain characters benefit should be a clear sign that they should not be allowed. It's almost like suggesting we mod Dream Land's boundaries to be closer in because floaties are too strong on that stage...

They definitely do allow players to do things they can't do otherwise. Normally players can't hit shallow up-B angles with easy consistency. There is a certain risk to going for good angles, and modding your controller removes that risk. I don't think adding notches is as simple as you make it out to be, but even if it is, players shouldn't have to alter the controller they've been using for over a decade just to keep up with other players who want to gain an advantage by modding the game.

Enabling automatic L-cancelling through 20xx would change the meta and allow players to be more consistent the same way notches do, but no one convinces themselves that's an okay mod to impose on their opponents. The same should be true for notches. You should read through the thread because all of these topics have been brought up already and none of them are very convincing reasons to allow controller mods that fundamentally change the game and create significant barriers to entry to new and veteran players alike.

 

[-ACE-]

It simply makes more sense to keep the tournament standard of 13+ years versus allow all types of alterations to the gate and stick that reduce the amount of precision needed to perform AT's in a highly technical game. In addition, those who don't want their opponent to have a distinct advantage from the get-go are expected to obtain this new mod (kinda sucks you can't buy a first party controller and enter a tournament on an even playing field) by either paying (irrelevant to my point) for it, or trying to do it themselves.

But Kadano's notches are just the beginning. There's currently nothing to stop anyone from carving deep notches and making control stick precision relatively obsolete for whichever techs you choose. I just don't think this is good for melee. Probably not many of us would be on this site right now if melee wasn't so technically demanding. I think it's a huge chunk of the game's character, and it's being dumbed down. The control stick is how players truly express themselves; the rest of the controller is buttons. Think about it... if you arent precise with the stick you're not a good player. It is the most prominent skill in melee.

 

[Scroll]

This is getting a little too repetitive.
The same EXACT point is being formulated for the 20th time.
We get it -ACE- Bones0
Why do you guys keep replying the exact same thing to all of the posters and liking each other's posts?
Modded controllers aren't gonna banned wether or not you win this debate you made this thread into.

Let people breath lmao.

How about we take a vote?

What is your stand point for modded controllers in tournament settings?

1. Keep them legal
2. They should be banned
3. I don't care

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly you could talk about more about notches and controllers and less about Bones and I. If you'll look back I was never even sarcastic to anyone until massive tried to poke fun at Bones and I, I was on topic. But I'll give you, it's tough to argue against facts.

Keep in mind the vote shouldn't be just for "modded" controllers. I'm for the vast majority of mods, so I wouldn't ever vote NO to all mods like that. I just don't support people obviously trying to gain an outside advantage when no official entity is looking over the changes being made to the melee standard. "No one's saying anything, it must be kosher!" When if tournaments were controlled by an organization dedicated to actual competition, notches would surely be banned. Tournaments should judge skill.

 

[Scroll]

Nah I think I pretty much spoke my mind on the matter.
If I can repeat myself once though, I'll remind you of that picture I posted with the two modded Playstation and XBox controllers.
I personally think I pretty much trumped it with that post.

 

[-ACE-]

Nah I think I pretty much spoke my mind on the matter.
If I can repeat myself once though, I'll remind you of that picture I posted with the two modded Playstation and XBox controllers.
I personally think I pretty much trumped it with that post.

You conveniently didn't answer any questions I had about it. Trumped? Not really.

 

[Scroll]

You conveniently didn't answer any questions I had about it. Trumped? Not really.

Your question was regarding if these were constructed in someone's basement or commerically produced. Right?
I can see why you would ask that since they do somewhat look 3d printed, which yes you can, with great experience, design from home.
But no they are mass produced products. I wrote in my post they are over 3 years old. They went through many versions to optimize their idea.
Many products are ideas realized as a prototype in someone's basement.

I still don't see why you wanted to know that. And if you really did, why you didn't try and research these on your own.

My goal with that post was to show that other games reiterate game experience/control enhancements and thus raising the question: Why would Melee be any different?
Why is Melee so sacred that no innovation is welcomed?

 

[Comet7]

melee is an old game it must be bad. this is an awful argument, and the same as ace saying controllers should be banned because they don't match up with the standard. who says the standard is good (keyword: standard, not getting into bones' stuff)? the only reasonable argument against this specifically is superior accessibility. if we spit at the idea of other controllrs being used for smash, then of course thry wonvt be as popular as they could be. players that already exist also don't HAVE to switch if they don't want to.

 

[-ACE-]

Scroll The reason why I asked is because I wanted to know if someone was making them privately out of the blue without consulting whatever group of people decide legality, or if it had been thoroughly analyzed, discussed, and optimized before being introduced to tournament play. Because if the former is true, it would be a lot less like comparing apples to oranges. But at the end of the day, that's what it is; no 2 games or controller mods are alike. What I should be asking you is why you think changing the competitive standard of 14 year old game in order to make it easier to play is necessary. If it was not a competitive game it wouldn't matter. What motives exist? simply bettering melee? Not $ure...

I tried searching for those controllers briefly but couldn't find any info on them.

This "innovation" is misguided imo, as it undermines the purpose of a tournament. If you want to not have tournaments and just have huge smash fests that's always an option. Competitive players kinda want to see who the better player is. It's great for casuals though if they want to play around.

 

[Scroll]

Ok one thing at a time.
No it's not comparing apples to oranges.
This is exactly the same. Regardless of game and console.
Many people has this reaction to them: "Git gud keet. Learn to use a real controller"
But they accept them and wanna beat the people that use them although they provide a clear advantage in technical execution.

Why do I think making Melee easier is necessary?
Because perfect WD lengths, for one, are stupid hard. It's a tool I wanna respect and be punished for when I don't.