Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

[Sutekh]

I agree with whoever said that modifications to the shell should be legal, but no hardware modifications. I don't have a problem with a different joystick or replacing the triggers, but rather things that would allow for macro inputs and whatnot. As it stands, not every controller is created equally. The white Japanese controllers are generally considered to be built with higher quality materials than the Wii U Sm4sh controllers. Some controllers naturally have the ability to shield drop perfectly while others do not. Notching a controller is something that anyone has the ability to do themselves at home with very little experience. It's really available to anyone who cares to take the time. I would actually like to see the practice of notching pick up across the community. As long as the rules are clear as to what types of mods are allowed, everyone is on an even playing field, and I don't see much of a problem with it. Especially when we're talking about shield dropping notches, as you're basically just modding the controller to so something that other controllers can already do.

 

[Bones0]

I want my opponent to be as scary as possible.
Hook the controller up to your brain and control your character with your thoughts
Hell he could have a computer play in his place and I still wouldn't care.
Optimal SDI everytime. 100% accuracy powershields. Multishines for days.

I certainly would not want to play this way, but I have no problems with my opponent having an advantage over me.
Everything has a counter. And it's the choises that you make during the match that determines the winner. Not brute force tech skill alone.

One of the things I hate the most is watching a set end with someone air dodging off the stage, missing the firefox angle or anything as a result of a tech flop.

What you want isn't really relevant. The purpose of tournaments is to determine who is the best at playing Melee, not who would be the best with perfect tech skill. Obviously decision making matters more than tech skill, but you can't possibly be implying it doesn't matter. This goes back to my second point, which is people use mods because they provide noticeable advantages in accuracy, consistency, and reliability.

Take F1 racing for an example. Yes they have regulations, but they all keep pushing the boundaries of what's physicaly possible in order to gain an advantage on the "Even playing field" called theracing track.
If you want a true even playing field we could only play ditto matches.

But there sure is an answer to ALL said enhanced, in-game techniqes they provide.

Lemme repeat what you just said. "ALL that person has to do..."
You still see the so-called Melee Gods, the most respected melee players of all, miss ledge dashes, firefox angles and other tech resulting in SD.

In my opinion aiding people in the technical aspect of the game will do nothing but improve it as a whole.

F1 racing is a great metaphor. Racing organizations establish a standard of what is allowed so that everyone is controlling their performance with an equal amount of potency. "Formula One cars race at speeds of up to 360 km/h (220 mph) with engines currently limited in performance to a maximum of 15,000 RPM". Racers aren't told to just build the fastest car imaginable and told to race. There is a clear standard of what type of car is allowed and competitors are prevented from modifying their cars in certain ways in order to gain advantages over other racers. In the same way you can't attach a rocket to the back of your car in F1 racing, you can't add notches to your controller in Melee.

Saying we all have to play dittos is totally illogical. We are all on an even playing field because we all have an equal choice of what character we want to play. A Kirby cannot complain he had a disadvantage if he loses to a Fox because he had all the same options available to him. He CHOSE to play Kirby and in doing so, he accepts the benefits and drawbacks of such a decision.

Yes, pros mess up tech all the time, but aiding people in performance doesn't just improve performance, it fundamentally changes the game. Options that were once risky now become virtually guaranteed. Just because players are doing tech skill more consistently doesn't mean the game itself has been improved. You are simply removing depth based on your own judgement call. If you want to play a game where tech skill isn't hard, go find another game. Don't try to change Melee.

Bones0 , I believe we have found a philosophical difference in what we believe to be the spirit of the game.


To me, the true core of what makes smash so awesome is that even at a rudimentary level you have people mentally outmaneuvering each other to win. It's a fluid, freeform interaction that pits opponents (when they are of relatively similar skill
levels) in a battle of prediction and execution. I wholeheartedly believe that while execution is important, most people win because of their ability to reason quickly and effectively, and at times it's VERY hard to train that because of barriers in execution.



The game does not prevent you from wavedashing perfectly or shield dropping easily, our completely arbitrary selection of controllers and controller layout does. We did not follow the developers intentions in making smash a competitive game, why is the idea that our controller is the only way to play so sacred?

We are imposing an artificial limitation on how good people can get based on their input selection, and that's just silly to me.

Innovation and a really, really great community have kept this game going as long as it has and I think deciding to restrict people trying to innovate again is counter to what our community is.

That's just my viewpoint though. I am not going to condemn anyone for their reasons of liking smash competitive or otherwise, I do just honestly feel like we're limiting ourselves when we decide to only allow players one method of improving.

I don't think anyone would disagree that decision making matters more than execution, but execution is something that was built into the game. L-cancelling is a perfect example. These technical barriers you are complaining about are an inherent part of the design. This idea that we should be allowed to add notches to make wavedashing easier is equivalent to saying we should play on 20xx with automatic L-cancelling. They are both modifications of the original game designed to make tech skill easier. Maybe you think the game would be better without L-cancelling, which is an opinion I can certain respect, but I doubt you would find it okay to FORCE your opponents to play on a mod where L-cancelling is automatic. Why then, is it okay to FORCE your opponents to play on a mod where you can shield drop easily or perfect wavedash easily? You are modding the game to make certain things easier, and there's no way around that.

We, as a community, aren't imposing an artificial limitation on how good people can get. That is what the game designers did when they determined how Melee works in cooperation with the GameCube controller. Again, if you feel the game designers made a mistake with input selection, such as not being able to map buttons, that's fine, but you cannot then go ahead and mod the game to suit your desires and still call it Melee. That would be like a baseball player telling the MLB he is going to use an aluminum bat because he can perform better with it. How is that fair to the fielders or even other batters who have practiced hard to get good with the standardardized wooden bats?

It's also worth pointing out that, like I said before, having consistent tech doesn't necessarily mean the game is better off. Players might mess up tech less, but the decision making regarding risk-reward is greatly diminished and becomes much more shallow when people can consistently do hard tech. In standard Melee, going for a perfect WD OoS is a risky option because of the input difficulty. If I'm playing a person without the mod, I can weigh the risk and reward of doing something that is technically unsafe but can only be punished with a perfect WD OoS. If perfect WDs are automated, my options are restricted and there is simply less decisions for me to make. I don't have the opportunity to weigh the risk-reward of a slightly unsafe attack because there is no longer any risk on the defenders end when it comes to punishing.


@GenNyan
Getting appropriate rulesets is definitely something the community would have to focus on, but ultimately we can't allow controller mods just because there may be specific instances where it is hard to tell. First of all, if there was a universal ban on mods, most people would simply not use them out of respect for the competition. I'm sure most people using notches and other mods aren't trying to cheat the system, they just view it as upgrading their equipment because TOs don't enforce the standard, even when their rulesets say no controller mods. Secondly, I don't think it will be that hard to prevent mods anyway. If someone gives me their controller, I can easily determine if they have a mod in about half a second of looking at their controller or moving around. There may be some that are somehow harder to detect with a quick playtest, but it's also important to realize that you only really have to catch someone using a modded controller once. If someone is found using a control stick that is somehow altered inside the controller, that player could face being banned from tournaments altogether (not unlike how players in other eSports are banned when caught cheating). I find it hard to believe many players will mod their controller for subtle tech skill advantages when there is such a high potential cost for getting caught.

The most important thing to do is to establish a standard, which is super easy for us because Nintendo makes the only GCN controllers worth using. So if the standard, out-of-the-box Nintendo GCN controller is the default standard, we simply have to ask what are acceptable mods. I think virtually everyone is in agreement that paint jobs and removing rumble do not alter the game, but the most common mods before stick notches even became an issue are using different stick types, removing buttons entirely, and removing springs. Personally, I don't even think those should be allowed, but they are so prevalent I'm not sure it's feasible to stop them. I even have a trigger myself that I've taken the spring out of, so hopefully that demonstrates I'm not necessarily biased against people who are currently utilizing mods. I just don't think they are good for the game or competition. But regardless, that is what I think the starting spot should be. Players can paint their controller, remove the rumble, remove buttons, remove springs, and swap sticks for other official Nintendo control sticks (GCN control stick, GCN C-stick, and Wii nunchuk stick). This should have no impact on 99% of the community.

 

[Kadano]

F1 racing is a great metaphor. Racing organizations establish a standard of what is allowed so that everyone is controlling their performance with an equal amount of potency. "Formula One cars race at speeds of up to 360 km/h (220 mph) with engines currently limited in performance to a maximum of 15,000 RPM". Racers aren't told to just build the fastest car imaginable and told to race. There is a clear standard of what type of car is allowed and competitors are prevented from modifying their cars in certain ways in order to gain advantages over other racers. In the same way you can't attach a rocket to the back of your car in F1 racing, you can't add notches to your controller in Melee.

I think this is not a great metaphor. Added notches do not lift the limits on the controller for maximum wavedash distance or closest angle to perfection. These were available from the start. I can, then, only assume that your metaphor’s speed is equivalent to angle perfection consistency in Melee.

A maximum speed limit is quantifiable and thus verifiable. A limit to consistency in inputting angles as close to the software dead zone is hard to quantify. It would have to be done by measuring the perfect angle against the octagon gate’s rim at the corresponding spot and either calculating the force vector towards the nearest cardinal direction, or the resistance against that.
When we look at longest wavedash angles (342.9° for the right side), the angle between that and the vanilla octagon gate rim (247.5°) is 95.4°. These excess 5.4° will always tend to bring the stick into the dead zone area when intending to hit just 342.9°.
For a controller shell that’s worn down heavily from years of play, the octagon shape will be reduced almost to a full circle, and the same direction will only pose a 90° angle against the rim.

The controller will, very slowly, approach that value during every minute you use it. At what time do we consider the threshold to be surpassed? If we adjust to your speed metaphor, and again liken value consistency to max speed, we would have cars that move with 360 km/h at the start, but slowly increase up to ~370 km/h whenever they are being driven. Perfect wavedash notches would be at ~400 km/h.
Which would be the enforced threshold, now? 360 km/h or 370 km/h?
In the former case, we’d have to ban controllers that are "too worn out". In the latter case, we are acknowledging that the initial state they are bought in is not optimal, and set a limit of what can naturally be achieved just by being worn out.

 

[Bones0]

I think this is not a great metaphor. Added notches do not lift the limits on the controller for maximum wavedash distance or closest angle to perfection. These were available from the start. I can, then, only assume that your metaphor’s speed is equivalent to angle perfection consistency in Melee.

A maximum speed limit is quantifiable and thus verifiable. A limit to consistency in inputting angles as close to the software dead zone is hard to quantify. It would have to be done by measuring the perfect angle against the octagon gate’s rim at the corresponding spot and either calculating the force vector towards the nearest cardinal direction, or the resistance against that.
When we look at longest wavedash angles (342.9° for the right side), the angle between that and the vanilla octagon gate rim (247.5°) is 95.4°. These excess 5.4° will always tend to bring the stick into the dead zone area when intending to hit just 342.9°.
For a controller shell that’s worn down heavily from years of play, the octagon shape will be reduced almost to a full circle, and the same direction will only pose a 90° angle against the rim.

The controller will, very slowly, approach that value during every minute you use it. At what time do we consider the threshold to be surpassed? If we adjust to your speed metaphor, and again liken value consistency to max speed, we would have cars that move with 360 km/h at the start, but slowly increase up to ~370 km/h whenever they are being driven. Perfect wavedash notches would be at ~400 km/h.
Which would be the enforced threshold, now? 360 km/h or 370 km/h?
In the former case, we’d have to ban controllers that are "too worn out". In the latter case, we are acknowledging that the initial state they are bought in is not optimal, and set a limit of what can naturally be achieved just by being worn out.

Notches lift the limits of the player the same way faster cars lift the limits of the driver. Obviously you can hit a perfect wavedash with a normal controller, but a player with notches will always perform more consistently than a player without them. But I understand the difference that's bothering you, so if you want a different metaphor, there are plenty applicable ones in the sports world.

Unfortunately, unlike Melee, most sports did not start with a clear standard. They fell into the same trap that controller modifications lead to. One player mods their equipment for an advantage, then others follow suit in order to compete. These actions end up changing the game drastically from how it was originally. However, even for sports where this evolution of equipment has occurred, virtually every major sport puts limitations on equipment to prevent competitors from gaining unfair advantages. Here is the International Tennis Federation's ruling on racket size:

(b) The frame of the racket shall not exceed 29 inches (73.66 cm) in overall length, including the handle. The frame of the racket shall not exceed 12½ inches (31.75 cm) in overall width. The hitting surface shall not exceed 15½ inches (39.37 cm) in overall length, and 11½ inches (29.21 cm) in overall width.

Simply put, players could easily improve their play by just using a larger racket. They would still have to have quick footwork and swing properly, but their hits would just be slightly more forgiving than a player with a smaller racket, just like how a modded controller is more forgiving towards a player trying to do a perfect WD.

I don't think anyone is considering we allow any type of mods (hopefully), so the question is really where do we draw the line? We can draw the line at the standard GCN controller, the controller that the designers had in mind throughout the entire creation of the game, or we can draw the line past that. The latter becomes ridiculously arbitrary and leads to abuses I've already described where players push the boundaries of what's allowed more and more.

There's very little debate about what should be prevented with standard controllers. If the only conceivable advantages available with standard controllers is gained through traditional wear and tear, that's a really good standard. I've never really noticed anyone with a significantly worn down octagon, and I've been using the same controller face for years so I'm not even sure the difference you're describing exists. Regardless, it's a very small issue that can be settled without much controversy. If we allow non-standard controllers, we have to argue about everything from controller notches to extra buttons to macros/turbo functions. It gets really messy really quickly, and you invite all of the issues I laid out, such as fundamentally altering the game, accessibility, and regulation.

 

[-ACE-]

The notched controller does nothing to the maximum skill ceiling; it raises the skill minimum and skill average, with less technical receiving the largest boost, and people like Silent Wolf gaining close to nothing.

Imagine a world where absolutely everyone from Bill Gates to homeless people got along and worked hard and earned every penny they owned (when you die your money disappears).

If technical ability was measured in currency, this is like the people who notch controllers printing their own money and giving it out to everyone, with the wealthiest people receiving the least amount of money, and the largest amounts going to those with no money at all. When the rich people ask why they received very little money, they will be told "No one is supposed to be THAT poor. We changed the the absolute minimum amount of money any given person will have, while keeping the maximum amount of money the same"

This benefits people with no money (beginners), and does little for those who have nearly broken backs from they hard work to become wealthy (technical players). As you can see, there's nothing unfair about one person being richer than another, as they all earned their money. Some people just started working earlier than others. But there is DEFINITELY something wrong with distributing money (tech skill) UNEVENLY, as previously, all money (teck skill) has been earned.

Could have said taxing the rich and giving to the poor, but we aren't physically taking anything away from technical players who have spent many years practicing, we just wouldn't be giving them anything compared to someone who just started playing. Those players receive huge shortcuts on the way to becoming high level.

 

[Kadano]

Yeah right, I guess that’s why a good portion of the players with the best skill in the world want controllers from me. Because it would improve hardly anything for them. Makes sense to pay 180$ for nothing. /s

The controller limits and faults are a problem for everybody, regardless of skill. Tech skill is much more than having useful gate notches, but to do some techs really consistently, certain notches are probably necessary. Doesn’t matter whether you are a noob or Mango / Armada.

But bad players like myself don’t get much from having longer wavedashes. I was never able to beat people that I didn’t beat before since I did these mods for my controller. They just give you more control over the things you intend to do, causing less frustration when the gate’s shape is responsible for messing something up.

 

[Scroll]

The notched controller does nothing to the maximum skill ceiling; it raises the skill minimum and skill average, with less technical receiving the largest boost, and people like Silent Wolf gaining close to nothing.

Imagine a world where absolutely everyone from Bill Gates to homeless people got along and worked hard and earned every penny they owned (when you die your money disappears).

If technical ability was measured in currency, this is like the people who notch controllers printing their own money and giving it out to everyone, with the wealthiest people receiving the least amount of money, and the largest amounts going to those with no money at all. When the rich people ask why they received very little money, they will be told "No one is supposed to be THAT poor. We changed the the absolute minimum amount of money any given person will have, while keeping the maximum amount of money the same"

This benefits people with no money (beginners), and does little for those who have nearly broken backs from they hard work to become wealthy (technical players). As you can see, there's nothing unfair about one person being richer than another, as they all earned their money. Some people just started working earlier than others. But there is DEFINITELY something wrong with distributing money (tech skill) UNEVENLY, as previously, all money (teck skill) has been earned.

Could have said taxing the rich and giving to the poor, but we aren't physically taking anything away from technical players who have spent many years practicing, we just wouldn't be giving them anything compared to someone who just started playing. Those players receive huge shortcuts on the way to becoming high level.

Gr8 B8 M8.

Bones0
You're making valid points. I can see where you're coming from.
And I know you're a well respected player who certainly grined out tech skill and probably still do.
I just find it slightly hypocritical that you wanna ban all mods that help you, but you wanna keep the mod you're using legal.
Using a shoulder button with enhanced access to power shielding by all means fall into the same cathegory as notches.
And you want that to be allowed.

Also I didnt say Melee was a challenge of who is better at tech skill. No idea where you got that from.
I have been implying almost the opposit.

Playing dittos is highly relevant on the topic of even playing fields. I am sure you are familiar with the year 20XX theory.

Look I can understand you're scared your beloved game will change.
It wont!
If anything it will change for the better.
People will get used to new standards. Practice and display better option coverage. And in turn become better players.
In the end you CHOSE not to use a modded controller thus putting you in a disadvantage.
Or did it? Maybe you are more comfortable finding that sweet angle by feel

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah right, I guess that’s why a good portion of the players with the best skill in the world want controllers from me. Because it would improve hardly anything for them. Makes sense to pay 180$ for nothing. /s

The controller limits and faults are a problem for everybody, regardless of skill. Tech skill is much more than having useful gate notches, but to do some techs really consistently, certain notches are probably necessary. Doesn’t matter whether you are a noob or Mango / Armada.

But bad players like myself don’t get much from having longer wavedashes. I was never able to beat people that I didn’t beat before since I did these mods for my controller. They just give you more control over the things you intend to do, causing less frustration when the gate’s shape is responsible for messing something up.

The fact of the matter, is that they are already quite consistent with the techs. So when you introduce something that physically assists your execution of an advanced technique (as in, makes perfect wavedashes very easy), they will benefit less than someone who was not already consistent. No one is claiming your controllers are nothing. The notched ones provide an advantage that no other controller possesses.

Of course tech skill is more than having gate notches, this is irrelevant.

If it didn't help you personally, that it's not enough data to be conclusive for an entire community.

Scroll closest analogy so far, feel free to discount it. It's still very close.

 

[Scroll]

The fact if the matter, is that they are already quite consistent with the techs. So when you introduce something that physically assists your execution of an advanced technique (as in, makes perfect wavedashes very easy), they will benefit less than someone who was not already consistent. No one is claiming your controllers are nothing. The notched ones provide an advantage that no other controller possesses.

Of course tech skill is more than having gate notches, this is irrelevant.

If it didn't help you personally, that it's not enough data to be conclusive for an entire community.

Scroll closest analogy so far, feel free to discount it. It's still very close.

No your analogy is so far off. It's actually pretty amazing.
Plus it implies that a fundamental political standpoint, as well as a view on humanity as a whole is the correct one.
Which is debatable. Which I am not gonna partake in.

 

[Virusbleumage]

K, for those of you who are opposed to custom controllers for Nintendo Gamecube, where do you draw the line?

extra buttons.

Can I weaken a spring? Can I remove a button? When is a stick box so broken in so that it's "too custom" for you?
Do you want it to be standardized to bring a mint condition controller to tournament settings?

This is ridiculous for thousands of reasons. Sometimes it takes too long to ship a mint condition controller.

What if my 14 year old controller is so broken in from my impeccable wave dashes that it actually carved a notch by itself?

Impossible. And we could do with less of your sarcasm, please.

The notched controller does nothing to the maximum skill ceiling; it raises the skill minimum and skill average, with less technical receiving the largest boost, and people like Silent Wolf gaining close to nothing.

Imagine a world where absolutely everyone from Bill Gates to homeless people got along and worked hard and earned every penny they owned (when you die your money disappears).

Ok, Mr. Lobbyist, that's fine, but homeless people should just stop being poor. Bad example.

If technical ability was measured in currency, this is like the people who notch controllers printing their own money and giving it out to everyone, with the wealthiest people receiving the least amount of money, and the largest amounts going to those with no money at all. When the rich people ask why they received very little money, they will be told "No one is supposed to be THAT poor. We changed the the absolute minimum amount of money any given person will have, while keeping the maximum amount of money the same"

Learn the economy.

This benefits people with no money (beginners), and does little for those who have nearly broken backs from they hard work to become wealthy (technical players). As you can see, there's nothing unfair about one person being richer than another, as they all earned their money. Some people just started working earlier than others. But there is DEFINITELY something wrong with distributing money (tech skill) UNEVENLY, as previously, all money (teck skill) has been earned.

I don't see what's so bad about giving people an unfair advantage. I don't know about you, but I can think of better things to do with my time than practice a children's video game. If I can have all of the technical skill and just substitute practice for money (to send to Kadano of course), I'm all for it.

Yeah right, I guess that’s why a good portion of the players with the best skill in the world want controllers from me. Because it would improve hardly anything for them. Makes sense to pay 180$ for nothing. /s

This guy gets it.

The controller limits and faults are a problem for everybody, regardless of skill. Tech skill is much more than having useful gate notches, but to do some techs really consistently, certain notches are probably necessary. Doesn’t matter whether you are a noob or Mango / Armada.

Yes, exactly. Do you really think mango / armada practice all day every day to get where they're at? No. Simply put, they have NATURAL TALENT. Sorry, folks, but it's a thing. They see the game in a different light and don't need perfect wavedashes to outsmart scrubby opponents (99% of you complaining about the controllers). Learn the game, don't ***** about controllers.

Side note, Kadano how do I place an order with you? Thanks

 

[Kadano]

The fact of the matter, is that they are already quite consistent with the techs. So when you introduce something that physically assists your execution of an advanced technique (as in, makes perfect wavedashes very easy), they will benefit less than someone who was not already consistent.

I would actually say that the opposite is true. A new or mediocre player will benefit very little from perfect notches, because due to his little understanding of the game, he doesn’t understand when it makes sense to use them.
For example, after adding ±18° notches to my controller, I frequently missed WD OOS punishes because my wavedash put them too far from my opponent, so my dtilt / grab / fsmash whiffed.
Examples where the notches really help are smash turn wavedash edgehog when you need to be very quick, recovery sweetspots (you need quite a lot of experience to know exactly which angles work at what position and enemy position threat) and wavedash dtilt (which PPMD is the only person I know to know how to apply them properly). All of these are things that won’t help a new player who doesn’t understand these properly.

But for someone like PPMD, being able to rely on getting the ±18° recovery angles and consistent shield drops does improve his choices in some situations considerably. Compared to his standard routine of practicing, a modded controller will relatively help more for him than for the newbie (who’d get much more from paying attention and getting tips while playing with a better player).

Of course tech skill is more than having gate notches, this is irrelevant.

I only included that bit because your posts so far made it seem as if modded controllers would magically increase the all-around techskill of a player, when in reality it will only affect about 2-5% of the techskill inputs made within a match.

Side note, Kadano how do I place an order with you? Thanks

Due to new forum rules, my thread with all the details and order lists is now located here: http://smashboards.com/forums/customization-services.537/

 

[-ACE-]

Scroll you are imagining these implications. Take the example at face value. I keep things simple for you guys.

Kadano New players will have a head start, this is undeniable. But mid to high level intelligent players with inconsistent tech would probably benefit the most. None of this addresses the introduction of something which is NOT the standard, that makes performing advanced techniques easier. There is no way to justify it from a competitive standpoint, aside from it helping you in training. It has no place in a melee tournament.

If anyone here thinks notches make no difference, and you can beat your opponent with a controller without notches, DO IT.

 

[Bones0]

Gr8 B8 M8.

Bones0
You're making valid points. I can see where you're coming from.
And I know you're a well respected player who certainly grined out tech skill and probably still do.
I just find it slightly hypocritical that you wanna ban all mods that help you, but you wanna keep the mod you're using legal.
Using a shoulder button with enhanced access to power shielding by all means fall into the same cathegory as notches.
And you want that to be allowed.

Also I didnt say Melee was a challenge of who is better at tech skill. No idea where you got that from.
I have been implying almost the opposit.

Playing dittos is highly relevant on the topic of even playing fields. I am sure you are familiar with the year 20XX theory.

Look I can understand you're scared your beloved game will change.
It wont!
If anything it will change for the better.
People will get used to new standards. Practice and display better option coverage. And in turn become better players.
In the end you CHOSE not to use a modded controller thus putting you in a disadvantage.
Or did it? Maybe you are more comfortable finding that sweet angle by feel

I don't want to keep any mods. If you reread what I said, I stated I removed a spring from one of my triggers but don't think that should be allowed. However, because of how popular that mod is, I'm not sure it's a good starting point in trying to set legality. You'd be hard pressed to convince a TO to ban spring removal because a ton of players simply won't go to the event. If it were up to me alone, I'd absolutely ban it.

Like I said before, character selection already leaves everyone on an even playing field. You do not have to pay money in order to play a top tier, and unlike controller mods, characters are part of the game. The same cannot be said for custom notches and any other crazy mods that will come about if there is no standardized controller.

You say the game won't change, but then in the next sentence say it will change for the better... Sorry, I don't buy your argument that the game is better when tech skill can be performed more easily. Like I've already stated, if you want a game with tech skill that can be performed 100% of the time, play a different game. Melee is not that easy.

This whole discussion of whether mods benefit players or not is ridiculous. They obviously do, which is why people are buying them, but every time I say they are unfair and alter the game, people claim they barely matter or have no real affect on who wins. Which is it? Because the flip flopping is impossible to argue against.


The crux of the matter still remains: controller mods are just as intrusive as 20xx mods. Allowing a player to hit a perfect WD angle every time changes the game the same way automatic L-cancelling does, but it's even worse because not everyone benefits from the easier tech skill. How anyone can actually justify modding the game to improve their own consistency is beyond me. It undermines the whole spirit of competition to have such an advantage over your opponent, and EVEN IF both players have the same exact mods, it is artificially adding and removing new elements to the game and how it is controlled.

 

[Massive]

The way Bones0 and -ACE- are arguing makes it seem like someone being able to wavedash or shielddrop a little more consistantly/easily is going to destroy the game and everything they've worked for somehow.

I really don't understand arguments that modifying the controller is "changing the game" somehow. The game is exactly the same as before, all the mods in question are doing is simplifying execution of techniques that are normally considered hard to do reliably.

No offense intended here, but I'm starting to feel like you guys are arguing against these mods because you believe they invalidate some of your tech skill practice time.

 

[Bones0]

The way Bones0 and -ACE- are arguing makes it seem like someone being able to wavedash or shielddrop a little more consistantly/easily is going to destroy the game and everything they've worked for somehow.

I really don't understand arguments that modifying the controller is "changing the game" somehow. The game is exactly the same as before, all the mods in question are doing is simplifying execution of techniques that are normally considered hard to do reliably.

No offense intended here, but I'm starting to feel like you guys are arguing against these mods because you believe they invalidate some of your tech skill practice time.

The controller is part of the game, so obviously if you change the controller you are changing the game. The difficulty in executing certain techniques is PART of the game. In soccer, you will see players aim for the corner of the goal because that is the hardest area for a keeper to block. However, the dynamic of shooting makes players weigh the risk of missing a goal with the benefit of a harder goal. You can take the consistent shot and aim 3 feet from the corner, or you can take the riskier shot and leave the keeper with almost no chance of blocking it. This aspect of the mental game is clearly seen with something like a Firefox angle. You can aim your up-B at a really shallow angle, but in doing so you risk going horizontally and missing the ledge if you aren't precise. Alternatively, you can aim slightly higher so that you don't risk going horizontally, but instead risk getting hit by an opponent on stage.

Whether you think these risk-reward scenarios are a good part of the game or not is irrelevant. They are a significant part of the game and I've heard top players reference these situations often. When you mod the game so that certain things are easier, you are artificially reducing risk while reward stays the same. Everyone who is pro-mods seems to desire a world in which everyone has perfect tech skill so no one plays inconsistently, but that is ultimately an opinion. If you don't like how Melee promotes technical prowess, play a different game, or mod Melee and call it Melee+. What you can't do is mod Melee and then insist it's the same game.

As to your last sentence, yes, having people undermine hard work through cheating is certainly frustrating. I'm sorry if you don't think modding the game is cheating, but it just is. The definition of cheating: "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination" You are using outside influences to gain an in-game advantage.

 

[-ACE-]

The way Bones0 and -ACE- are arguing makes it seem like someone being able to wavedash or shielddrop a little more consistantly/easily is going to destroy the game and everything they've worked for somehow.

I really don't understand arguments that modifying the controller is "changing the game" somehow. The game is exactly the same as before, all the mods in question are doing is simplifying execution of techniques that are normally considered hard to do reliably.

No offense intended here, but I'm starting to feel like you guys are arguing against these mods because you believe they invalidate some of your tech skill practice time.

No offense yourself, but I'm slightly disappointed that someone could be so -edited-. The meta game (the way the game will be played) will change. Is that better? This is undeniable and painstakingly easy to see.

When a lot of points are brought up that no one else has thoroughly analyzed or considered, it may look like someone is blowing the issue out of proportion, when in reality there is just more to the issue than many initially thought.

PS massive you basically just said "you guys are just complaining because it's unfair to you". I think there are a lot more people that clearly see this as an unfair advantage, but they just don't care enough or don't have the cojones to stand up to the majority.

At this point, Bones and I are the ones that would like to see a real counter argument. The controller modifiers are the ones imposing a new entity into melee that will affect the way the game is played. It is on them to prove that it is suitable for competitive play, and so far, no one has done that.

Protip: give up, it's impossible.

 

[Scroll]

-ACE-
You're arguing as if there are already stadard rules against modded controllers. And anyone talking for modded controllers are against the "core" of the game as you view it. And at the same time wave off anyone that disagree with you, calling them irellevant.
The fact is that there aren't any rules yet. And there probably wont be any.

You might have to face the fact that innovators like Kadano are here to stay, and the next competition you go to your opponent use one of his mods.
Deal with it.

 

[-ACE-]

Scroll I only called points irrelevant, because they were. I didn't call anyone irrelevant, that doesn't really make sense.

Having notches is not the standard. The only way to keep the even playing field is to keep them out or allow them all. But it would not be the same game. Technicals would be easier. You can call it melee but it's simply not true.

Mods that do not make a very technical game less technical are fine imo. You guys should mod melee and remove all the AT's you can't do or don't feel like doing, call it something else, and hold your own tournaments for that game.

 

[Massive]

At this point, Bones and I are the ones that would like to see a real counter argument.

Protip: give up, it's impossible.

So, you want me to keep posting counterarguments, but you'll never change your position anyway?

I think I've already stated my point and whatever requisite retorts were needed. Continuing at this point would just be repeating those same things in slightly different ways and I'm not up for that, so I'll just tap out now.

Good luck with that whole "true competition" thing, guys.

 

[-ACE-]

So, you want me to keep posting counterarguments, but you'll never change you position anyway?

I think I've already stated my point and whatever requisite retorts were needed. Continuing at this point would just be repeating those same things in slightly different ways and I'm not up for that, so I'll just tap out now.

Good luck with that whole "true competition" thing, guys.

Thanks buddy. Good luck with the whole "this game requires too much practice and is too technically demanding for reasonable consistency. Time to make these technical maneuvers that require precision much easier!" philosophy.

 

[Scroll]

Let me give you a real argument.
This is another example of a modded gaming controller used in competitive gaming
It was welcomed with open arms and noone was complaining - over 3 years ago.
I bet this picture is your worst nightmare xD
I suggest a new mod, Kadano which involves instant access to the Cstick for people not using the claw grip. Possibly moving the Cstick to the back of the controller. Or something along the lines of what they did with the Avenger Reflex.

 

[-ACE-]

Let me give you a real argument.
This is another example of a modded gaming controller used in competitive gaming
It's welcomed with open arms and noone is complaining
I bet this picture is your worst nightmare xD
I suggest a new mod, Kadano which involves instant access to the Cstick for people not using the claw grip. Possibly moving the Cstick to the back of the controller. Or something along the lines of what they did with the Avenger Reflex.

Is someone constructing these parts in their bedroom and distributing them before any discussion took place? or are these standardized and properly mass produced after the issue has been thoroughly analyzed from a competitive standpoint?

This looks like changing the location of buttons without drilling new holes. I am not sure what games they are being used for, but if a fox or falco main putting the Y button 1 millimeter from the B button, that is obviously him trying to gain an unfair advantage. Just one example. It really depends on the game and how it is played (which will be a crucial factor in determining the degree in which such mods would provide assistance) what is standardized, etc. I haven't been paying ps4 or Xbox games for 10+ years like I have melee so I wouldn't know.

Tbh those things look like they'd be best suited for someone with a disability. It's crazy to me how a normal controller is just too difficult for some people (or they feel that it is, because their skill level hasn't reached the level they thought it should have by a certain point).

 

[PseudoTurtle]

There's nothing wrong with modded controllers... As long as your opponent agrees to it. There's no reason to not make the legality contingent on a gentleman's agreement. No reason.

But when difficulty performing a tech is directly correlated with how much money I'm willing to spend and when some won't see it as worth it or don't have the means to afford it, that's messed up that I can basically "buy" technical skill that enhances my performance in tournament.

Again, nothing at all wrong with it, but I strongly believe that both parties involved have to consent to it.

 

[-ACE-]

The fact is that there aren't any rules yet. And there probably wont be any.

You might have to face the fact that innovators like Kadano are here to stay, and the next competition you go to your opponent use one of his mods.
Deal with it.

Just caught this edit. This is NOT A FACT. Genesis 1 and 2 banned controllers with notches.

Also, when it comes to notches, Kadano is not an innovator. I was curious myself and tried it around 7 years ago. It felt extremely unethical. I'm sure others have as well. So, contrary to popular belief, my opinion comes from a higher standpoint of experience than the majority of those posting.

And I know Kadano contributes to the community, I support that as I also have contributed for many years. And I support the mods that do not clearly make advanced techniques easier.

If you want to be a top player, you must practice; an inconvenient truth for some.


Edit: and I'll deal with it just fine, I'll just know that if they thought they could win without outside assistance, they would.

Enjoy your training wheels!

 

[-ACE-]

The best mod imo would be to have Kadano or someone else that really knows controllers to charge $$ to perfectly center your stick box so that it shield drops like it should. The result is a fully functional (not faulty) controller, they way it was meant to be, free of outside forces that aid your technical execution.

 

[Scroll]

Enjoy your training wheels!

Thanks man. Just finalized my order with Kadano today. Cannot wait to recieve my brand new, main controller.
And still get bodied.

On the note of training wheels, it's funny how arbitrary the word advantage is.
Imagine 2 guys both starting to practice Melee on the very same day.
Now from day one Guy 1 has access to 20XX hack pack.
Guy 2, on the other hand, dont have acess to a computer or a modded Wii and do not have the means to acquire either.

I know this isn't all that relevant to the discussion of having something to assist you during a match, you know other than the intellectual aspect of the info you can gather from the hack pack.

Are we really supposed to "break" the game so we can watch on what frame you come out of shield stun?

Ethical or not, most of us enjoy this privilege.

 

[-ACE-]

So, let's analyze the gentleman's clause.

Player A uses an unmodified, standard, first party controller.

Player B has 16 notches in his controller's control stick gate.

Player A is scheduled to play against player B in bracket.

Upon sitting down, player A notices that Player B is using a controller with notches specifically made (and placed in ideal corresponding locations) to make technical maneuvers less demanding. The notches are so easy to notice, that unless Player B was intentionally hiding them, Player A would never have to ask for a half second look at his gate. Player A is the type of player that believes in a neutral start, has seen hybrid gate reviews such as this.....

....and generally desires to compete on an even playing field against his opponent. He asks player B if he could use either an unmodified controller, or one without notches.

Player B would then have to agree to Player A's conditions to continue.

............................................

So the NotchNation is proposing that players like Player A (who would not like to compete against someone with a clear advantage in technical execution) either pay 4-5x the price of a new standard controller, or figure out the precise location of the notches and create them himself. In order to optimize his gameplay, he would then have to practice quite a bit to adjust his decision making, spacing, etc according to new habits that would develop and the new higher rate of consistency in his technical execution.

The OctagonNation is asking that Player B play with his modified (notched) controller as he pleases, both outside and inside tournament play, until another tournament player asks you to use one without notches. He would then either use the controller he used to use before he had the modified one, borrow one, head to losers bracket, or be DQ'd.

One side says "bring an extra one of the standard controllers you're most likely already extremely accustomed to to keep it fair. You know why you (notched it yourself or) bought a controller with notches... They help."

The other side says either

A) I don't agree, this is not a significant advantage (although he jumped at the chance to get a notched controller and paid 4-5x the price as Player A did) and you should just quit complaining and go with the flow.

or

B) Modify your own controller, Player A. Or buy one for $180. It is a clear advantage. And regarding legality, no one is saying anything. In fact, I don't think they will!

...because they either can't see the clear advantage, care not that it exists, or think everyone should do it.

If the amount of tournament competitors that value competing on an even playing field is so low, this should not be a huge inconvenience for Player B. Player B also would not have to learn something new, like Player A would have to, to maintain a level playing field, unless he had a notched controller from day one.

What is the biggest problem with this? It at least preserves some of the tournament's legitimacy. And I'd urge you to consider the REASON why you'd inconvenience either player. One of them just wants things to be fair.

 

[Kadano]

The OctagonNation is asking that Player B play with his modified (notched) controller as he pleases, both outside and inside tournament play, until another tournament player asks you to use one without notches.

LOL what a weasel word sentence. That’s like saying "We are asking that Player X uses [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever] as much as he pleases, both outside and inside tournament play, … until another tournament player asks him to not use [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever].

You want it banned, it’s as simple as that. It’s understood that Gentleman’s agreement can allow controller mods too, but just as we are not regularly practicing PokeFloats "because the opponent might agree to it", but do practice against stuff like wobbling / camping etc., we wouldn’t keep our notch modded controllers as main controllers if they were banned / "gentleman only".

It takes time to do notch mods, and it takes time to practice tech skill and game understanding. Still, both are doable by everybody. (A bit of money is required for both; it’s not like consoles, controllers, TVs and electricity are free.)
You can pay someone that has spent many hours in understanding the process of controller modding, and you can pay someone who understands important facts about the game to teach you how to do certain inputs or look at the game in the proper way, which will make you improve much faster than when doing it all by yourself.

Both of these make you pay to improve your in-game performance. Both of these "change the game" to a similar degree. Why don’t I see you complaining about Tafo’s "Zero to Hero" and similar tutoring stuff, then? (Because it’s easier to tell if your opponent is using a modded controller than whether he’s received tutoring, of course. But both of these go against the arguments you’ve put forward so far to a similar degree.)

You know what else changed the game? When shield dropping became widespread. Before that, I was used to be able to poke shielding opponents with utilt and uair from below quite safely. Now they can just drop down in-between and punish me! That’s so not cool. Shield dropping should be banned completely, I don’t want to put the effort in learning it too, and I don’t see why I’d have to.

Well, except that’s of course not how I reacted. They improved the way they use the controller, and that improved their option set. The appropriate response from me would be to learn how to deal with shield dropping. And actually it’s kinda cool that they can do that now, since spamming utilts from below felt a bit cheap.

Of course I am biased here, I won’t deny that and can’t help it. But I imagine that if I was someone else who’d just learned about gate mods, my thoughts would be closer to: "Oh, some people managed to fix controllers so that they don’t have that annoying habit of accidentally overshooting into cardinal direction any longer? That’s cool, now that this is becoming wide-spread, my practice partners will be able to use all recover options reliably too, so when I travel to a tournament I won’t be that overwhelmed by an opponent who has full control over his recovery angles any longer."

 

[-ACE-]

LOL what a weasel word sentence. That’s like saying "We are asking that Player X uses [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever] as much as he pleases, both outside and inside tournament play, … until another tournament player asks him to not use [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever].

How can you not see that those tactics ARE PART OF THE GAME and notched controllers aren't? Lol.

It takes time to do notch mods, and it takes time to practice tech skill and game understanding. Still, both are doable by everybody. (A bit of money is required for both; it’s not like consoles, controllers, TVs and electricity are free.)
You can pay someone that has spent many hours in understanding the process of controller modding, and you can pay someone who understands important facts about the game to teach you how to do certain inputs or look at the game in the proper way, which will make you improve much faster than when doing it all by yourself.

Both of these make you pay to improve your in-game performance. Both of these "change the game" to a similar degree.

How can you attempt to make such a comparison between practicing tech skill and notching controllers? What a joke. One is human ability, and one is human ability with ASSISTANCE.

No one really used notched controllers before. YOU are introducing this, players that desire a even playing field are not "setting a limitation" or imposing anything, but somehow, it is on the players that value fairness and use the STANDARD controller to point out the obvious to a bunch of people that are just dying to perform better in tournament. It's interesting that this new issue causes one to choose between their morals as a competitor and their desire to get better at melee, and I'm sure you knew what people would choose prior to embarking on this business venture. And with controller sales at stake, OF COURSE you will defend this new movement, lol.

You know what else changed the game? When shield dropping became widespread. Before that, I was used to be able to poke shielding opponents with utilt and uair from below quite safely. Now they can just drop down in-between and punish me! That’s so not cool. Shield dropping should be banned completely, I don’t want to put the effort in learning it too, and I don’t see why I’d have to.

Shield dropping is PART OF THE GAME. The controller modifiers are the ones saying "oh that's not cool" when they fail at technical execution on an unmodified controller and set out looking for a substitute for practice.

Of course I am biased here, I won’t deny that and can’t help it. But I imagine that if I was someone else who’d just learned about gate mods, my thoughts would be closer to: "Oh, some people managed to fix controllers so that they don’t have that annoying habit of accidentally overshooting into cardinal direction any longer? That’s cool, now that this is becoming wide-spread, my practice partners will be able to use all recover options reliably too, so when I travel to a tournament I won’t be that overwhelmed by an opponent who has full control over his recovery angles any longer."

That "annoying habit of accidentally overshooting into [the] cardinal direction" is a weakness you have as a player due to lack of practice, understanding, or natural ability. This is NOT reason enough to alter to the controller to make technical maneuvers less demanding.

The second half of that paragraph describes using notched controllers for training proposes. I stated multiple times I am fine with this.

 

[Bones0]

LOL what a weasel word sentence. That’s like saying "We are asking that Player X uses [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever] as much as he pleases, both outside and inside tournament play, … until another tournament player asks him to not use [wobbling / ledge stalling / whatever].

You want it banned, it’s as simple as that. It’s understood that Gentleman’s agreement can allow controller mods too, but just as we are not regularly practicing PokeFloats "because the opponent might agree to it", but do practice against stuff like wobbling / camping etc., we wouldn’t keep our notch modded controllers as main controllers if they were banned / "gentleman only".

It takes time to do notch mods, and it takes time to practice tech skill and game understanding. Still, both are doable by everybody. (A bit of money is required for both; it’s not like consoles, controllers, TVs and electricity are free.)
You can pay someone that has spent many hours in understanding the process of controller modding, and you can pay someone who understands important facts about the game to teach you how to do certain inputs or look at the game in the proper way, which will make you improve much faster than when doing it all by yourself.

Both of these make you pay to improve your in-game performance. Both of these "change the game" to a similar degree. Why don’t I see you complaining about Tafo’s "Zero to Hero" and similar tutoring stuff, then? (Because it’s easier to tell if your opponent is using a modded controller than whether he’s received tutoring, of course. But both of these go against the arguments you’ve put forward so far to a similar degree.)

You know what else changed the game? When shield dropping became widespread. Before that, I was used to be able to poke shielding opponents with utilt and uair from below quite safely. Now they can just drop down in-between and punish me! That’s so not cool. Shield dropping should be banned completely, I don’t want to put the effort in learning it too, and I don’t see why I’d have to.

Well, except that’s of course not how I reacted. They improved the way they use the controller, and that improved their option set. The appropriate response from me would be to learn how to deal with shield dropping. And actually it’s kinda cool that they can do that now, since spamming utilts from below felt a bit cheap.

Of course I am biased here, I won’t deny that and can’t help it. But I imagine that if I was someone else who’d just learned about gate mods, my thoughts would be closer to: "Oh, some people managed to fix controllers so that they don’t have that annoying habit of accidentally overshooting into cardinal direction any longer? That’s cool, now that this is becoming wide-spread, my practice partners will be able to use all recover options reliably too, so when I travel to a tournament I won’t be that overwhelmed by an opponent who has full control over his recovery angles any longer."

There's a crucial difference between improving within the game and changing the game so that it's easier. Being tutored or studying videos does not change the game, it simply improves your skill. Discovering shield dropping and V-cancelling didn't change the game, just our understanding of it. Controller notches are not part of the game. They are modifications to the game designed to make it easier.

You seem to be under the impression that you are somehow fixing the controller by removing limitations, but the things you are modifying aren't necessarily flawed, they just require more technical precision. You and others may feel the game would be better if tech skill was easier, but that doesn't give you free reign to mod the game.

If you were simply realigning control stick boxes/octagons to match properly constructed controllers, no one would have an issue, and hopefully that's something you could work out instead of adding functionality that most people do not have access to.

 

[Kadano]

How can you not see that those tactics ARE PART OF THE GAME and notched controllers aren't? Lol.

How is that relevant? Pausing mid-game is "part of the game" too, but still not allowed. And so is the freezing glitch. Both things inside and outside the game are subject to the ruleset.

How can you attempt to make such a comparison between practicing tech skill and notching controllers? What a joke. One is human ability, and one is human ability with ASSISTANCE.

How is it not ASSISTANCE when another player is ASSISTING me with personal training lessons?
But this is not the point. You were arguing as if the only way to get this kind of improvement was by paying 180$, and as if that was a bad thing that needs to be banned.
People can right now spend that much money (and more) on tutoring which improves their performance too. And they can get these controller improvements on their own as long as they have 5$ for a triwing and a file (and a good bit of time).

No one really used notched controllers before. YOU are introducing this, players that desire a even playing field are not "setting a limitation" or imposing anything, but somehow, it is on the players that value fairness and use the STANDARD controller to point out the obvious to a bunch of people that are just dying to perform better in tournament.

I can only speak for myself here, but personally my motivation for doing these mods for myself was not doing better in tournament, but no longer messing up desired inputs due to shortcomings of the controller (that no amount of practicing helped with for me). It seems to me you have to resort to ad hominem ("you are all just desperate losers").

It's interesting that this new issue causes one to choose between their morals as a competitor and their desire to get better at melee, and I'm sure you knew what people would choose prior to embarking on this business venture. And with controller sales at stake, OF COURSE you will defend this new movement, lol.

Morality is a very subjective thing. You see this as immoral, I and many other do not. You are acting as if your view on morality was objectively correct.

Shield dropping is PART OF THE GAME. The controller modifiers are the ones saying "oh that's not cool" when they fail at technical execution on an unmodified controller and set out looking for a substitute for practice.

Except that practice doesn’t help here really, as mentioned before.

That "annoying habit of accidentally overshooting into [the] cardinal direction" is a weakness you have as a player due to lack of practice, understanding, or natural ability. This is NOT reason enough to alter to the controller to make technical maneuvers less demanding.

You say it’s the player’s fault, I say it’s the controller shape’s fault.
Essentially, the argument is akin to sports hardware being … upgraded. If we followed your line of thinking, pro cyclists would still use the same bicycle technology as in the 30’s (or whenever they started having races).
The hybrid gate is a technological improvement. Trying to ban superior stuff that has no drawbacks in itself has historically been a very bad choice, but it seems neither of us can convince the other here, so I’ll stop now.

There's a crucial difference between improving within the game and changing the game so that it's easier.

If you think that the controller is part of the game (which I don’t agree with, and -ACE- seemingly only does so when it benefits his argument), then improving the controller is improving within the game. By improving my personal skill, the game also gets easier for me.

If you were simply realigning control stick boxes/octagons to match properly constructed controllers, no one would have an issue, and hopefully that's something you could work out instead of adding functionality that most people do not have access to.

The thing is, the Sung shield drop method only works on controllers that are not properly constructed. A perfectly properly constructed controller would always spot dodge at the corresponding notches.

 

[Bones0]

The hybrid gate is a technological improvement. Trying to ban superior stuff that has no drawbacks in itself has historically been a very bad choice, but it seems neither of us can convince the other here, so I’ll stop now.

By this logic, shouldn't we allow turbo functions? They are superior and have no drawbacks.

 

[Kadano]

By this logic, shouldn't we allow turbo functions? They are superior and have no drawbacks.

A turbo function would push buttons (electrically) for the player. It’s akin to installing a motor in your bicycle. With the hybrid gate, you still need to do all the inputs.
Although, yes, I’m not strictly against lowering the amount of physical inputs necessary. I look forward to controlling your Melee character directly with electrodes hooked to your brain, if that ever becomes a reality. (Hax’s and Mew2king’s hands would cherish, that’s for sure.)

But the currently most widely used rulesets ban electrical modifications that do with one button press what is usually done by more than one, and I’m okay with this rule and all my mods comply with it. I don’t intend to change it, unlike you.

 

[-ACE-]

How is that relevant? Pausing mid-game is "part of the game" too, but still not allowed. And so is the freezing glitch. Both things inside and outside the game are subject to the ruleset.

If it seems irrelevant to you, it went over your head. I'm surprised you didn't say "items are part of the game" also, lol. The key here is that you are sneaking this new mod into the mainstream and hoping people don't value fairness enough to say much. This discussion is the closest thing to notches being "subject to the reset". It hasn't been thoroughly evaluated yet.

How is it not ASSISTANCE when another player is ASSISTING me with personal training lessons?
But this is not the point. You were arguing as if the only way to get this kind of improvement was by paying 180$, and as if that was a bad thing that needs to be banned.
People can right now spend that much money (and more) on tutoring which improves their performance too. And they can get these controller improvements on their own as long as they have 5$ for a triwing and a file (and a good bit of time).

I have been saying PHYSICAL assistance this whole thread, way to catch the one time I don't properly label everything. Good job.

This comparison is just making me laugh, lol. I guess you're still an artist if you use a stencil.

Except that practice doesn’t help here really, as mentioned before

Oh of course, when has it ever? Sounds like you have encountered some of the worst controllers in existence if you think practice doesn't help. What a statement.

You say it’s the player’s fault, I say it’s the controller shape’s fault.
Essentially, the argument is akin to sports hardware being … upgraded. If we followed your line of thinking, pro cyclists would still use the same bicycle technology as in the 30’s (or whenever they started having races).
The hybrid gate is a technological improvement. Trying to ban superior stuff that has no drawbacks in itself has historically been a very bad choice, but it seems neither of us can convince the other here, so I’ll stop now.

No drawbacks? LMAO. Good thing you're "stopping".

You are clearly biased, even without the confession or profit, so it's for the best.

 

[Bones0]

A turbo function would push buttons (electrically) for the player. It’s akin to installing a motor in your bicycle. With the hybrid gate, you still need to do all the inputs.
Although, yes, I’m not strictly against lowering the amount of physical inputs necessary. I look forward to controlling your Melee character directly with electrodes hooked to your brain, if that ever becomes a reality.

But the currently most widely used rulesets ban electrical modifications that do with one button press what is usually done by more than one, and I’m okay with this rule and all my mods comply with it. I don’t intend to change that, unlike you.

Yeah, a turbo function pushes buttons for you just like how notches input angles for you...

 

[Kadano]

Yeah, a turbo function pushes buttons for you just like how notches input angles for you...

Oh, so my control stick is moving on its own? I didn’t even notice.

 

[-ACE-]

Oh, so my control stick is moving on its own? I didn’t even notice.

There are a lot of things going unnoticed here. If all you have to do is put the notch to the gate and slide until it falls into spot, how much skill is involved?

 

[Kadano]

Oh of course, when has it ever? Sounds like you have encountered some of the worst controllers in existence if you think practice doesn't help. What a statement.

I will just respond to that bit, because I agree with you that my wording / statement was bad here.

I *believe* that practice helps little in getting perfect angles, at least compared to most other things you can practice. To determine whether practice can ever give you the same level of consistency as using corresponding notches, we’d have to take lots of measures from those who claim to be able to hit these values from practice alone, and those who have proper notches for the perfect angles that they are familiar with, and compare these.

But doing so would take really long and not really be worth it, since I don’t think it would be deciding in the entire question this thread is about, so I took out the explanation why I think "practice doesn't really help here". I should have taken out the entire paragraph.

So yeah, I want to retract my previous statement you quoted, since that is only what I believe to be likely and not an objective truth.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, so my control stick is moving on its own? I didn’t even notice.

Turbo buttons don't move in their own. You press and hold them and they perform an action. Sounds exactly like notches. You hold the stick towards a notch and it gives you the angle you want whether you held it in the proper direction or not.

 

[Kadano]

Turbo buttons don't move in their own. You press and hold them and they perform an action. Sounds exactly like notches. You hold the stick towards a notch and it gives you the angle you want whether you held it in the proper direction or not.

Turbo buttons constantly output new input readings while pressed. You hold them and they perform many actions. A modded gate does not read more than one input with one hand input, which was the point of my post you quoted initially.