Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

[GenNyan]

Ok one thing at a time.
No it's not comparing apples to oranges.
This is exactly the same. Regardless of game and console.
Many people has this reaction to them: "Git gud keet. Learn to use a real controller"
But they accept them and wanna beat the people that use them although they provide a clear advantage in technical execution.

Why do I think making Melee easier is necessary?
Because perfect WD lengths, for one, are stupid hard. It's a tool I wanna respect and be punished for when I don't.

"Its too hard" is literally the lamest justification (if you can call it that) ever.

 

[Scroll]

"Its too hard" is literally the lamest justification (if you can call it that) ever.

LMAO!
Why else would you want mods that help you?

 

[-ACE-]

LMAO!
Why else would you want mods that help you?

Thank you. Lol.

"Its too hard" is literally the lamest justification (if you can call it that) ever.

true but at least he answered honestly, there are a lot of others that would probably give a different answer but everyone's reason for putting notches in a controller is the same (well, almo$t).

 

[Santeria]

Top 6 use modded controllers? And I've seen how your supposed to mod the controllers and it looks like a huge pain in the ass.

 

[spider_sense]

"Its too hard" is literally the lamest justification (if you can call it that) ever.

I JUST said that's what the new gen talks about when regarding this game. A CHILD'S game is too hard.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Think about it... if you arent precise with the stick you're not a good player. It is the most prominent skill in melee.

I think the mind is the most important tool in melee. You can be the most technical fox in the world, then break your hand, and suddenly be considered a bad player? I believe that's a bit unethical.
I've been learning to play claw to adapt, but I don't think that everyone should have to do that if a simple controller adjustment could help.

I could be wrong. I'm just sharing my perspective.

 

[-ACE-]

Mega bump. I don't think using extreme circumstances as examples gets you so far. No one wants to enforce a bunch of rules on disabled and injured people, Pawl. Lol.

 

[GenNyan]

I think the mind is the most important tool in melee. You can be the most technical fox in the world, then break your hand, and suddenly be considered a bad player? I believe that's a bit unethical.
I've been learning to play claw to adapt, but I don't think that everyone should have to do that if a simple controller adjustment could help.

I could be wrong. I'm just sharing my perspective.

You can be the best quarterback in all of football, then break your leg, and suddenly be considered a bad player. Life ain't fair.

And if a disabled guy brings in a modded controller, do you honestly expect people to give him flak about it?

 

[Skitrel]

Your input device is irrelevant, what matters is merely that the device you have is still operating in functionally the same way the normal controller functions.

By this I mean, no macro, no automation.

You can use a dancemat if you want for all I care if there's space for it, as long as the number of inputs is identical to the original it doesn't matter in the slightest.

It astounds me that this is such a massive debate here when it's simply common practice in the PC community where there isn't any standardised keyboard or mouse. Use whatever you want as long as it isn't changing game inputs.

I entirely understand logistics of space and problems with wireless controllers though.

Extra buttons is a nono, having a different shaped controller is not.

TL;DR: Comfortable running shoes are fine, using motorised rollerblades is not. The topic shouldn't be difficult. This isn't Formula One. This isn't even Dota 2. The topic isn't debated this hot there.

 

[-ACE-]

Your input device is irrelevant

Not when you're talking about competitive play, when there is 13-year standard in place. A notch allows you to find an ideal spot more easily, it keeps you there, and it gives you the reassurance that you won't flub the input due to shaky hands or inaccuracy. So you could say it's functionally the same as an unmodified octagon gate, but since it drastically reduces the accuracy needed for some inputs, I'd say that's just your opinion.

 

[Skitrel]

Ban running shoes with springs in them! Puma Ignite mesh shoes with the sprung heel are clearly the reason Usain Bolt is world champion. It's not a level playing field unless everyone uses the same shoes.

 

[-ACE-]

Ban running shoes with springs in them! Puma Ignite mesh shoes with the sprung heel are clearly the reason Usain Bolt is world champion. It's not a level playing field unless everyone uses the same shoes.

Someone brought up this analogy already, I explained how it could be made much better. It doesn't begin to describe the situation.

 

[Skitrel]

No you didn't, you're just so completely and utterly entrenched in your purist view that you will argue poor justifications and assert their correctness rather than concede whenever anybody here puts down reasonable counter arguments. That's why you've responded with personal attacks against people multiple times throughout the thread rather than addressing the points they actually made.

Ban notches being modified on the base controller. I'll make a piece of plastic you can add onto the controller that is thus not modifying the base controller. Same workaround all the addon companies have used for tournament legal movement of buttons. Still using exactly the same controller.

There's no end to it, this is not a war you can ever win, therefore there is absolutely no sense in even trying to stop it at the base level. There will constantly be a new workaround to provide the improvement.

We should ban paddle gearboxes as they're easier to use than mechanical stick shifts in racing.

 

[-ACE-]

I was actually on topic until someone else made it personal, and after that I was just sarcastic. "Personal attacks" seems a bit harsh. But go ahead and have yourself a re-read.

It's on you to point out my poor justifications, if you wish to attempt to provide a counter argument. So far you have provided a stance with little to back it up, and an anology that is far too simplistic to describe the situation accurately. That's it.


Maybe some of you are lost. You really think I get bent out of shape over this issue? Do you really think I care that much about the rule? I'll still play melee either way. But someone wanted counter arguments, and hey, I post a lot, so I figured I'd give my opinion, back it up, and point out flaws in the counter-arguments. This is a forum. A dead forum at that. It's not real life. I'm sure many have reached several conclusions about my personal character by my posts on here. Good for you, it sounds like a great way to judge someone but before you hate, it would be nice to hear something better than "come on, it's not that big of a difference". Lol.

 

[Skitrel]

It's not that the analogy is too simplistic, it's that people attempt to overcomplicate the matter to get their way.

Simplifying into the smallest soundbite highlights the absurdity.

Ban carbon fibre in archery tournaments, they clearly give an unfair advantage to those that use them vs those that can't afford them.

People spending money on specialist equipment that does the job more efficiently and accurately is standard in sports. It doesn't create a barrier to entry because it's entirely unnecessary for anyone to have that equipment until they've become proficient at the lower levels, in Melee that's at minimum 6-12 months of time invested. Spending a few dollars on your hobby after months nd months for better equipment isn't unheard of doesn't make the scene any more difficult for anybody to start up in. No more so than Golf Clubs, Archery, Shooting, and so on and on. Entry level equipment vs specialised equipment is well founded in all sports and tournaments from the small local setting all the way up to Olympic level. Not being able to see that, as I've said repeatedly, is absurd and merely an exercise in failing to recognise the obvious.

I can repeat this until I'm blue in the face, you'll never change your mind because you have zero intention of entertaining anyone else's points.

 

[-ACE-]

It's not that the analogy is too simplistic, it's that people attempt to overcomplicate the matter to get their way.

Simplifying into the smallest soundbite highlights the absurdity.

Ban carbon fibre in archery tournaments, they clearly give an unfair advantage to those that use them vs those that can't afford them.

People spending money on specialist equipment that does the job more efficiently and accurately is standard in sports. It doesn't create a barrier to entry because it's entirely unnecessary for anyone to have that equipment until they've become proficient at the lower levels, in Melee that's at minimum 6-12 months of time invested. Spending a few dollars on your hobby after months nd months for better equipment isn't unheard of doesn't make the scene any more difficult for anybody to start up in. No more so than Golf Clubs, Archery, Shooting, and so on and on. Entry level equipment vs specialised equipment is well founded in all sports and tournaments from the small local setting all the way up to Olympic level. Not being able to see that, as I've said repeatedly, is absurd and merely an exercise in failing to recognise the obvious.

I can repeat this until I'm blue in the face, you'll never change your mind because you have zero intention of entertaining anyone else's points.

Wow. Hey man, forget the re-read. Won't do any good.

 

[Dumbcontrollers]

I went to a marvel 2 tournament with a madcatz stick. They said I was using illegal parts because I didn't use happ buttons and a bat top with a circle gate. I also didn't want to sit on the floor while I play. I asked them why it was unfair and they said a square gate has better edges which allows for more consistent diagonals, so it isn't allowed. I asked if they would consider looking further into the issue, since every part on my stick works exactly the same as theirs, I can just hit some moves more easily(according to them), but they simply said no since the rules have been in place for 15 years.

 

[Bones0]

Skitrel
You've made a lot of examples, but any sports example you find will be accompanied by an established standard. It's important to keep in mind major sports have major organizations to determine what arbitrary limitations equipment must have. If a new piece of equipment is developed, there is an official body to determine its legality. You could use a piece of equipment in one league only to have it banned in another. Leagues have differing rules, and frankly the whole thing is a mess so I'm not sure why anyone would want this system.

You sarcastically suggest:

Ban running shoes with springs in them!

Ironically, you have failed to realize that shoes with springs in them ARE ALREADY BANNED in track and field.

Such shoes, however, must not be constructed so as to give the competitor any unfair additional assistance, including the incorporation of any technology which will give the wearer any unfair advantage, such as a spring or similar device. A shoe strap over the instep is permissible.

Source: USA Track & Field Competition Rules

Furthermore, this analogy ignores the uniqueness with Melee's community which is that 99% of players already use the same controller. If people had all worn the same pair of Pumas for 14 years and out of nowhere Usain Bolt wanted to use a new pair that gave him an advantage, I'm sure people would take issue with that in the same way. The only reason a variety of equipment is allowed in sports is because there was no established standard from the beginning.

Here is another article that shows how sports are absolutely banning equipment that attempts to "do work" for competitors. This one is also based on shoe design.

The crux of the issue is that there needs to be a standard for what is allowed so that players are on an even playing field. For 14 years, 99% of the community has used the standard GameCube controller, the one the game was designed for. There is <1% of serious players competing with third party controllers or mods like custom notches.

This presents us with two main options: we can ban the the controllers being used by that <1% of the community and ensure everyone is on a totally equal playing field with maximum accessibility, or we can allow the handful of unique controllers which give people an edge over their opponents simply by buying a better controller, one that Melee was not designed to work with. Players will be encouraged to purchased modified controllers to gain proficiency and there will be no clear standard across the globe.

TOs at one event may allow some mod that is banned at another, so players will ultimately avoid tournaments with any restriction on controllers or complain to TOs until their modification is allowed. In a community where top players have a ton of influence to dictate rules, we will inevitably see TOs allowing whatever mods top players want just to get them to attend their event unless we can establish a universal standard. I cannot fathom why anyone would not want to make our 14-year long standard official by simply adding "no controller mods" to our rulesets.

 

[Massive]

Since this thread got bumped anyway (ugh), here's a small update.

I have made 3 hybrid gate controllers since I decided to see why a few people were so up in arms about this being "cheating".

I ended up going back to my regular old gate because there was so little benefit to me. It turns I have actually been hitting very, very close the max-distance wavedash angle for years. The divots gave me some feedback that may have been useful back
when I was still learning to wavedash, but it feels like it more got in the way of firebird/fox angles and messed up my DI more than anything.

I noticed no difference in shield drop ease, but I was already able to do them pretty well anyway, both through axe method and just hitting the straight down angle.

Also having done it before in the past, I feel like removing the spring for the L/R trigger has a WAY bigger effect on performance than stick notches do. Yet people are still totally OK with spring removal, weird.

Overall I'm even more convinced that controller mods (notch mods in particular) are basically innocuous. I'm also walking away from this whole experience wondering how bad at wavedashing someone would have to be for what I experienced to constitute a significant benefit.

 

[-ACE-]

Massive it's just too bad that all notches are not made equally. If one needs more assistance in getting a desired input, they can just make the notch bigger. Every scenario will be different and the benefit the mod will give is going to vary quite a bit (based on main, style of play, how deep/wide the notch is, etc). It's good that you already do perfect wavedashes almost every time, that puts you among the most consistent on Earth. But not everyone is like that. For instance, it helped my accuracy for landing maximum length wavedashes noticeably (despite being extremely familiar with the technique at the time) to the point that the execution of the maneuver felt unearned. But to each his own. I think the price people are willing to pay for the mods says something about the mods' [perceived] significance.

 

[Bones0]

Since this thread got bumped anyway (ugh), here's a small update.

I have made 3 hybrid gate controllers since I decided to see why a few people were so up in arms about this being "cheating".

I ended up going back to my regular old gate because there was so little benefit to me. It turns I have actually been hitting very, very close the max-distance wavedash angle for years. The divots gave me some feedback that may have been useful back
when I was still learning to wavedash, but it feels like it more got in the way of firebird/fox angles and messed up my DI more than anything.

I noticed no difference in shield drop ease, but I was already able to do them pretty well anyway, both through axe method and just hitting the straight down angle.

Also having done it before in the past, I feel like removing the spring for the L/R trigger has a WAY bigger effect on performance than stick notches do. Yet people are still totally OK with spring removal, weird.

Overall I'm even more convinced that controller mods (notch mods in particular) are basically innocuous. I'm also walking away from this whole experience wondering how bad at wavedashing someone would have to be for what I experienced to constitute a significant benefit.

It's great you don't need a modded controller to perform basic tech consistently, but based on the fact that people are purchasing modded controllers for ridiculous prices, it's clear you are in the minority. Most people seem to report tangible benefits, including people in this very thread. It's tiring to keep bringing up the same argument, but if the mods help, they are unfair, and if they don't help, why not ban them to ensure everyone is on an even playing field? There's literally no downside to banning mods.

As far as the double standard for spring removal, I agree that it's a problem and have stated I personally think it should be banned, but you can't really compare the two when it comes to accessibility. Removing trigger springs is ridiculously easy and already relatively common. Custom notches require a lot of precision and are a very new type of mod used by only a small handful of players. I think players would actually be less okay with spring removal if they understood how much it could benefit a player, but unfortunately most of the community doesn't understand the impact these mods have until a fairly high level of play. Regardless of the reason for the double standard, people being okay with spring removal is not an argument to allow a different type of mod. Again, this arbitrary discussion of where to draw the line with mod legality is exactly the problem with allowing any at all.

 

[Stride]

It's great you don't need a modded controller to perform basic tech consistently, but based on the fact that people are purchasing modded controllers for ridiculous prices, it's clear you are in the minority. Most people seem to report tangible benefits, including people in this very thread. It's tiring to keep bringing up the same argument, but if the mods help, they are unfair, and if they don't help, why not ban them to ensure everyone is on an even playing field? There's literally no downside to banning mods.

As far as the double standard for spring removal, I agree that it's a problem and have stated I personally think it should be banned, but you can't really compare the two when it comes to accessibility. Removing trigger springs is ridiculously easy and already relatively common. Custom notches require a lot of precision and are a very new type of mod used by only a small handful of players. I think players would actually be less okay with spring removal if they understood how much it could benefit a player, but unfortunately most of the community doesn't understand the impact these mods have until a fairly high level of play. Regardless of the reason for the double standard, people being okay with spring removal is not an argument to allow a different type of mod. Again, this arbitrary discussion of where to draw the line with mod legality is exactly the problem with allowing any at all.

I wouldn't say a mod that helps the player is necessarily unfair. The use of unmodified Nintendo-brand GameCube controllers is a de facto standard, and not necessarily the "best" one (there is no objectively best or correct standard; it depends on what the players and community want). If the vanilla GameCube controller had perfect wavedash notches in it for some reason then that would be the standard. What would your opinion on the notches be without the accessibility factor (in a situation where arbitrarily notch-modded controllers were very easily available, for prices reasonably similar to that of normal GameCube controllers)?

In the case of spring removal: the in-game benefit it has is to disable lightshielding (preventing it from happening unintentionally), and it also has the physical benefit of reducing the time and force it takes to reach a digital press (allowing you to react with a hardshield/powershield slightly quicker/better). Disabling lightshielding is something that can be done by simply holding the trigger down as the controller is plugged in; that's never going to be banned (mostly due to it being unenforceable). The physical benefit can be achieved by holding the trigger down as the controller plugged in, and then keeping it nearly completely pressed down (just above the level of a digital press; at the same height as the trigger would be without a spring); the reason no-one does that is because it's physically uncomfortable and because removing the spring accomplishes the same thing without that problem, but it's certainly viable. That mod can be functionally replicated through an easy, temporary, and impossible-to-ban method; modifying the controller for it just makes it easier and more physically comfortable to maintain (if you want the full benefit and not just the removal of the possibility of accidentally lightshielding).

I remove the spring from my trigger, and the most valuable advantage by far for me is the reduction in physical strain, especially with triggers that are stiff or with playing Luigi (or other characters that wavedash a lot). I would be very unhappy with having to hurt my hands more because of a ban on that modification, especially as part of a blanket ban rather than one based on the issues with that particular modification.

Any kind of ruling on mods is going to be arbitrary to some degree, even one that bans them entirely. There are complications caused by the fact that a lot of mods functionally overlap with normal controller wear. Button and spring resistance can be heavily reduced though normal use (what's your opinion on cutting trigger springs down, rather than removing them entirely? I ask because a stiff spring of artificially reduced length can have the same resistance as a worn/loose spring of its original length). Technically you could make almost any kind of modification to your controller's stick gate just with the control stick friction without even disassembling it, though realistically the creation of any useful notches isn't going to happen; wearing the existing notches away is definitely possible though (look at Silent Wolf's controller for an extreme example). I can't see the logic in banning a modification when it's done intentionally but not when it happens through normal use, since in that case the problem clearly isn't with the unfair advantage the modification provides.

 

[Bones0]

I wouldn't say a mod that helps the player is necessarily unfair. The use of unmodified Nintendo-brand GameCube controllers is a de facto standard, and not necessarily the "best" one (there is no objectively best or correct standard; it depends on what the players and community want). If the vanilla GameCube controller had perfect wavedash notches in it for some reason then that would be the standard. What would your opinion on the notches be without the accessibility factor (in a situation where arbitrarily notch-modded controllers were very easily available, for prices reasonably similar to that of normal GameCube controllers)?

In the case of spring removal: the in-game benefit it has is to disable lightshielding (preventing it from happening unintentionally), and it also has the physical benefit of reducing the time and force it takes to reach a digital press (allowing you to react with a hardshield/powershield slightly quicker/better). Disabling lightshielding is something that can be done by simply holding the trigger down as the controller is plugged in; that's never going to be banned (mostly due to it being unenforceable). The physical benefit can be achieved by holding the trigger down as the controller plugged in, and then keeping it nearly completely pressed down (just above the level of a digital press; at the same height as the trigger would be without a spring); the reason no-one does that is because it's physically uncomfortable and because removing the spring accomplishes the same thing without that problem, but it's certainly viable. That mod can be functionally replicated through an easy, temporary, and impossible-to-ban method; modifying the controller for it just makes it easier and more physically comfortable to maintain (if you want the full benefit and not just the removal of the possibility of accidentally lightshielding).

I remove the spring from my trigger, and the most valuable advantage by far for me is the reduction in physical strain, especially with triggers that are stiff or with playing Luigi (or other characters that wavedash a lot). I would be very unhappy with having to hurt my hands more because of a blanket ban on controller modification.

Any kind of ruling on mods is going to be arbitrary to some degree, even one that bans them entirely. There are complications caused by the fact that a lot of mods functionally overlap with normal controller wear. Button and spring resistance can be heavily reduced though normal use (what's your opinion on cutting trigger springs down, rather than removing them entirely? I ask because a stiff spring of artificially reduced length can have the same resistance as a worn/loose spring of its original length). Technically you could make almost any kind of modification to your controller's stick gate just with the control stick friction without even disassembling it, though realistically the creation of any useful notches isn't going to happen; wearing the existing notches away is definitely possible though (look at Silent Wolf's controller for an extreme example). I can't see the logic in banning a modification when it's done intentionally but not when it happens through normal use, since in that case the problem clearly isn't with the unfair advantage the modification provides.

A mod that improves a player's gameplay is unfair in the context of them having enhanced physical ability compared to someone using a standard controller. Could it be said that removing springs is "more fair" than custom notches because it is more accessible? I guess, but if we're using the non-modded controller as a standard then any type of mod is unfair, and non-modded controllers are BY FAR the most common used by competitors. The number of players who have removed springs greatly exceeds those with custom notches, but even they are only a small percentage of the community. If you go up to every Smasher at your average local, the vast majority will have a totally unmodified controller. Telling those players they have to mod their controller or play with a disadvantage should absolutely be considered unfair.

If we lived in a world where more than 1% of the community used different controllers, I can absolutely admit that the debate would be different. If there were respectable third party controller options available from the game's launch that players grew up using, it would obviously impact how fair or unfair using them would be. I would still hold the position that the standard GameCube controller should be the standard since it's what the game was designed for, but it also just wouldn't matter as much. We have seen this occur in the traditional FGC where games that were designed around arcade sticks have failed to control what limitations are in place. As a direct result, we see mods that are, in my mind, outrageous because they provide huge advantages, and players that have grown up playing with the appropriate arcade sticks are actually at a disadvantage. Of course, this rarely makes huge waves because mental skill will almost always trump technical ability, but that doesn't make the mods any more "okay" to allow. The example I used earlier in this thread was the Hitbox controller which allows players to easily "piano" 4 keys to achieve the same effect as a 360 degree stick motion.

As far as wear and tear, I've never really seen or used a controller where normal wear has had any significant effect on the controller. GameCube controllers are beasts in that aspect. The little bit of wear there is such as on spring resistance are things I would consider not ideal, but impossible to make a ruling on (not unlike your section about disabling light shielding which was 100% spot on and a big reason I have never pressed the issue when it comes to spring removal). Just to end this post with some semblance of a conclusion, we have already allowed a few types of mods to become popular, and none have any notable effects on gameplay (with the exception of trigger tricking which is frankly unavoidable due to in-game controller resets).

All I want to do is have our community draw a line in the sand so that people know what types of mods are allowable and which are not. Once we have an established standard, THEN we can have a discussion about expanding it to include custom notches or contracting it to exclude spring removal, but we are currently in a state of anarchy where no one even knows what is legal. I'd hope that at most locals, if you show up to play with a fight stick, they would say that controller isn't legal, but I'd be surprised if there weren't a few TOs who would say go for it because they either don't care or don't understand the effect that ruling has on competition. The worst part is if and when it happens, the first player to complain he's fighting an uphill battle will be told "you can just go make your own fightstick!", totally missing the core issue with allowing mods.

 

[-ACE-]

I would love to know the amount of controllers used where the octagon gate has been worn naturally, through use, in ANY spot, more than half of a millimeter. It won't be much at all. This is another extreme case that is being passed off as much more relevant than it really is.

 

[Nomis4]

honestly, and respecting everyone's oppinion. i believe having a modded controller it's unfair and should be banned from tournaments.

i agree with all of ace's statements. like, idk. think about it.

A lot of times, some games are won or lost bc of a really little margen, and that margen could easly b the modded controller. Many top skill players are using these yes, but i do not believe it's legal. also, many people do not have the resources to actually get those ( not my case even tho i decide not to get ome bc i feel it's unfair) so if a player that do not have this resources has to play a player that does ( and has the modded controller) isn't that already a disadventage ( this is just another point added to the many points added in favor of my oppiniom to this thread)

it is a really delicated thing. But if i would be a TO, i would forbid this controllers for my tournament series for sure.

Finally, a respectable player says something. Everyone is just spewing bull**** like that perfect wavedashes don't actually make a realistic difference....are you kidding? Perfect wavedashes are almost necessary to punish oos. I can't believe this is an actual discussion.

 

[Nomis4]

I would love to know the amount of controllers used where the octagon gate has been worn naturally, through use, in ANY spot, more than half of a millimeter. It won't be much at all. This is another extreme case that is being passed off as much more relevant than it really is.

THIS TOO. When you bring up modded controllers everyone always says "well the octagon gate will eventually turn into a circle through wear and tear". LOL. Good joke, that would take years to wear in a controller that much.

 

[Scroll]

1. At medium to top level players go through alot! of controllers to find a "good" one. One that fits them, has a "good" stick box, can easily shield drop, etc.
Any time M2K plays against Mang0 he feels like he is at a disadvantage simply because he thinks Mang0's controller is better than his.
And it might be.
And he might actually be at a disadvantage.
Modded or not, some controllers are better than others.
Let's agree, for a second, that this is what you are referring to when you say we have a 15 year old norm of an even playing field.
Well guess what not everybody has the means to go through 10-20 (or how ever many it is) controllers to find a perfect one.
I think this is one of the key elements that made Kadano start making the mods. To get a good controller, guaranteed.

2. Eventually. Maybe even within the next year. In the future, official Nintendo controllers will go out of production.
When this happens we will have to resort to fixing old controllers or use 3rd party controllers.
If you wanna enforce rules against all types of modifications you are gonna put a deffinate stop to playing competitively at all.
Think about that.

Finally, a respectable player says something. Everyone is just spewing bull**** like that perfect wavedashes don't actually make a realistic difference....are you kidding? Perfect wavedashes are almost necessary to punish oos. I can't believe this is an actual discussion.

If you read what he says, he states many top level players are already using modded controllers.
If that's true then they (the respectable players as you call them) are passively contributing to the discussion by acting what they think is ethical.
Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[-ACE-]

Modded or not, some controllers are better than others.
Let's agree, for a second, that this is what you are referring to when you say we have a 15 year old norm of an even playing field.
Well guess what not everybody has the means to go through 10-20 (or how ever many it is) controllers to find a perfect one.
I think this is one of the key elements that made Kadano start making the mods. To get a good controller, guaranteed.

Someone that encounters a good controller is just a little lucky (how lucky is debatable, but I can tell you right now if you go through 10 controllers that aren't heavily used and all of them are bad, you have very bad luck). They didn't deliberately alter the controller to make technical maneuvers easier. And plus, this is more of a stance to back up shield drop notches, which imo make much more sense than notches for wavedashes and Firefox angles.

If you read what he says, he states many top level players are already using modded controllers.
If that's true then they (the respectable players as you call them) are passively contributing to the discussion by acting what they think is ethical.
Just thought I'd point that out.

I'd like to also point out that many players are going to view it as unethical and either

1. Say nothing because they just want the same advantage everyone else does/has.

Or

2. Say nothing because they don't want to have to argue the concept of fairness with the majority. It's easy to go with the flow and not stick up for what you think is right. You don't catch any flack that way.


EDIT: Also, I just ordered 2 BRAND NEW sm4sh controllers off Amazon for $44 after shipping. What a deal. I'll report back with how they perform.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Mega bump. I don't think using extreme circumstances as examples gets you so far. No one wants to enforce a bunch of rules on disabled and injured people, Pawl. Lol.

I'm not saying that, just trying to broaden the scope of the question to see how that influences things. Anyway, if things get worse with my hands, I'm not going to mod my controller. Rather, I'm going to pick up sheik and do the Borp. Lol.

 

[Scroll]

gotto admit I am a bit too lazy to find who talked about this. But with enough play the gate deffinatly can show wear and tear.
This is a 10 year old controller owned by Silent Wolf

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao. Would you see that as an extreme case? Octagon gates worn down that horribly are probably about as common as humans with 6 fingers.

 

[Scroll]

Lmao. Would you see that as an extreme case? Octagon gates worn down that horribly are probably about as common as humans with 6 fingers.

Oh for sure
Just saying that it's possible.

 

[tauKhan]

Lmao. Would you see that as an extreme case? Octagon gates worn down that horribly are probably about as common as humans with 6 fingers.

I've seen a few even more worn out octagon gates. One had a gate that looked elliptical instead of circle lmao.

 

[-ACE-]

I've seen a few even more worn out octagon gates. One had a gate that looked elliptical instead of circle lmao.

That would make more sense, any players habits should primote wear in a particular spot(s). It's like SW practiced optimal button mashing (spiraling the stick) in his off time, lol.

 

[Scroll]

And the obvious question that has to be on everybody's mind:
Would you ban a controller like SW's?

You sure have to if you wanna ban other gate mods like notches.
But I am sure that would cripple Silent Wolf.
Sure he might use this shell because of nostalgic purposes (I am struggling to find right words). He feels attached to it.
But I also think he enjoys how it feels to find the sick firefox angles as well as inputting quarter circle DI. Might even feel at an advantage.

In my opinion this controller is awesome. I think it's absolutely amazing how much he have used the shell and sticks to it.
He even says he wears down new controllers in just 2 months.

 

[-ACE-]

Enforcing a rule on controller up-keep seems silly.

I think it's also different as SW never intentionally tried to make his controller allow him to hit precise angles easier. And as far as enforcing a rule, it's very easy to see the difference between natural wear and a notch that's been carved or etched into the gate, at obvious ideal locations.

I also recall a tweet by SW about notches. Something along the "learn to wd noobs". Lol.

 

[Scroll]

imho enforcing a arbitrary rule like that is vastly unethical.
far more unethical than gaining any advantage intentionally by modding your controller.

 

[-ACE-]

imho enforcing a arbitrary rule like that is vastly unethical.
far more unethical than gaining any advantage intentionally by modding your controller.

How so?


To me, intent matters. Just like how I wouldn't enforce hardly many specific rules on handicapped/injured people with modified ways of playing... They only intended to keep the playing field even, not gain an advantage over people using the standard controller. SW's controller would drastically hinder most people anyway. It's not like the natural wear in the gate created slots for the stick to fall into.

 

[Scroll]

How so?

Because advantages are very complex and arbitrary. And I disagree that anyone is entitled to judge wether an altered controller is legal or not if we dont have a stream lined rule.

Breaking a rule with or without intension still makes you guilty in a court of law.

 

[-ACE-]

No, in court, intent matters quite often. You can back over someone with your car, and if eye witnesses and video evidence show it was an accident, you do not get charged. Much different than running over someone intentionally. You get life minimum, lol.