Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

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No, in court, intent matters quite often. You can back over someone with your car, and if eye witnesses and video evidence show it was an accident, you do not get charged. Much different than running over someone intentionally. You get life minimum, lol.

You gotto love the american court system

 

[KP17]

i wont do the injustice of rehashing an opinion or view already brought up
i wont even do the injustice of summarizing the pros and cons and whatnot

instead heres something to think about:
in the future when technology allows us humans to input exactly what we want (obviously, this implies no technical barrier, no mistaken inputs, this implies macros for pika's jab string and the like are inputted at whim with no difficulty), where will you stand? the game still will not have changed imo. in this likely future, the meta will simply test one players understanding and decision making against the other. is that such a bad thing?

id wager that the subjectively better player will still be the one winning. those that relied on having better execution would surely be negatively affected- yet they still wont, and had never been, prohibited from improving in the mental aspect of the game. unfortunately im sure that the variance of skill in the community (melee is extraordinarily complex after all) will result in widely varying stances on this hypothetical matter. still, its worth thinking about

EDIT: something else to think about: i promise you that mental skill goes a longer way than physical skill. i know its hard to wrap your head around, especially if you are bad at the game, which im sure you are, and this is largely due to the incredible depth in the mental and physical departments of this game. however, this is easily verified by the fact that the better player can still win by simply walking around and punishing your stupidly and perfectly executed patterns

 

[-ACE-]

i promise you that mental skill goes a longer way than physical skill. i know its hard to wrap your head around, especially if you are bad at the game, which im sure you are

Uhh, what? Who are you referring to?

All the top players have both great mental and physical skill. They aren't constantly flubbing technically demanding inputs and still beating other top players through intelligent decision making. You cannot make it very far in melee with either skill set lacking. Melee is a extremely technical game at top level, and tech consistency is necessary for success in tournament. This is the nature of melee. I'm sure many would agree that mental skill is more important, but the fact that it is is irrelevant. The importance of tech skill consistency is undeniable at top level.

To me, perfect wd notches are the result of one wishing to increase their success rate of executing perfect wavedashes by intentionally physically altering their controller against the tournament standard instead of practicing more perfect wavedashes. To me, using the same controller you've always used, unmodified, IS part of the standard (considering the game's age and other factors), regardless of natural wear and tear. The comfort level (and tech consistency that comes with it) that results from the use of one particular controller for many years far exceeds any advantages seen from the physical changes in the octagon gate created by natural wear (friction with the control stick). I also feel that the newfound advantages resulting from natural physical wear on the octagon gate are negligible in comparison to homemade notches placed in ideal spots for the control stick to slide into.

 

[KP17]

im talking to everyone in this thread. you are bad at this game ace, there is no doubt about it. the top players right now are good but still lacking in obvious ways (obvious to the disciples of the game, not to the masses for sure). players below the top players, such as westballz, are lacking in ways that are obvious even to the masses. and this is apart from technical skill

your second paragraph i understand (from earlier posts....). my perspective on the matter (specific notches) is that the benefits (easy consistency) are balanced by the fact that you lose certain angles, which is a big deal, as well as the fact that I simply think execution, while horrendously difficult (there are arguments on either side as to the justification of stripping away these difficulties), is super super hard countered by better decision making. I know that it may make little sense to compare the two in a vaccuum, but for all the racket you are making I am driven to point out how brutally hard some people will be able to beat you no matter what

a logical follow up on your end is to bring up situations where two evenly matched players play out sets that are decided by technical consistency

this honestly should be answered according to each individual's philosophical view, and inherently is probably impossible to sort out in this community at this time. i personally think the notches are easy enough of a hardware fix to justify it being tourney legal. part of my intuitive thinking on the matter is this: if my risk reward for the shallow angle is increased in my favor, what is that relative to? my opponent's risk reward being lower without the notch is also contingent upon its being lower due to a lack of practice. imo, practice and effort are generalized to simply by the masses (someones abjection to kadano bringing up lessons as a comparison to paying for the hardware fix bothered me). i think, and this is without esports precedent (which should have its own thread probably), that the interface between gamer and game should be viewed as a barrier only. while i respect people like spidersense who have put in the work, and i dont want to discount that as meaningless, i dont think their hard work should act as a precedent for what TO's and our community expect to be standard.

 

[spider_sense]

im talking to everyone in this thread. you are bad at this game ace, there is no doubt about it. the top players right now are good but still lacking in obvious ways (obvious to the disciples of the game, not to the masses for sure). players below the top players, such as westballz, are lacking in ways that are obvious even to the masses. and this is apart from technical skill

your second paragraph i understand (from earlier posts....). my perspective on the matter (specific notches) is that the benefits (easy consistency) are balanced by the fact that you lose certain angles, which is a big deal, as well as the fact that I simply think execution, while horrendously difficult (there are arguments on either side as to the justification of stripping away these difficulties), is super super hard countered by better decision making. I know that it may make little sense to compare the two in a vaccuum, but for all the racket you are making I am driven to point out how brutally hard some people will be able to beat you no matter what

a logical follow up on your end is to bring up situations where two evenly matched players play out sets that are decided by technical consistency

this honestly should be answered according to each individual's philosophical view, and inherently is probably impossible to sort out in this community at this time. i personally think the notches are easy enough of a hardware fix to justify it being tourney legal. part of my intuitive thinking on the matter is this: if my risk reward for the shallow angle is increased in my favor, what is that relative to? my opponent's risk reward being lower without the notch is also contingent upon its being lower due to a lack of practice. imo, practice and effort are generalized to simply by the masses (someones abjection to kadano bringing up lessons as a comparison to paying for the hardware fix bothered me). i think, and this is without esports precedent (which should have its own thread probably), that the interface between gamer and game should be viewed as a barrier only. while i respect people like spidersense who have put in the work, and i dont want to discount that as meaningless, i dont think their hard work should act as a precedent for what TO's and our community expect to be standard.

Yo mm?

 

[-ACE-]

you are bad at this game ace, there is no doubt about it.

Lmao. Guess you've got me all figured out.

If I could make genesis I'd say bring your piggy bank and be sure to find me for a money match.

I'm glad you understood my second paragraph, as I made it extremely straight-forward. Notches will not cause you to "lose" angles. They may make them harder to hit at first, but it does not remove your ability to hit them. Once you get used to this, it will be negligible, and you will also have the added benefit that was the whole reason behind adding the notch in the first place.

a logical follow up on your end is to bring up situations where two evenly matched players play out sets that are decided by technical consistency

No, that wouldn't be logical at all, lol. Melee is ALWAYS a mixture of both skill sets, and the degree to which any player has mastered either isn't quantifiable. That's why we have discussion. The situation you are imagining will have to remain within your imagination.

 

[KP17]

im not saying im better than yall but feel free to mm me at genesis. if thats your response then i feel like both of yall are missing my point...

 

[-ACE-]

im not saying im better than yall but feel free to mm me at genesis. if thats your response then i feel like both of yall are missing my point...

Why is it that when someone makes a personal remark, and get a personal response, the person who responds is shunned? You could have, you know, not said anything personal to begin with.

I see what you're trying to say, but you're ignoring some facts and and say stuff that is only somewhat relevant.

 

[KP17]

i made a blanket statement that wasnt directed towards you in particular. im also not shunning, just expressing my sadness that you didnt really respond to the other stuff that i said. thats all

 

[Bones0]

KP17
In your hypothetical, you imply that everyone has access to this method of input. I'm sure if the "brain controller" you are talking about that allows players to forego physical inputs was $1,000 and only had a 100 in existence that you would not want to compete against someone using it.

But even if we're assuming everyone has it, this idea that Melee should be 100% mental is totally subjective. You're also misconstruing what is important with what should be important. I think most people agree that mental prowess matters more in Melee, but why would that mean we should change the game to focus entirely on the mental game? The only way you can come to that conclusion is if you just think of the physical aspect as some bizarre limitation to the game when in reality it's just as much part of the game as the mental aspect in its design. It seems comparable to telling sprinters that they should be sprinting through a maze because running in a predictable circle doesn't require tons of brain power. I believe I may have said this earlier in the thread, but if people don't like how Melee requires tech skill, they should play chess or some other game without physical requirements, not try to change Melee itself.

 

[KP17]

it comes down to subjectivity which we all agreed in the beginning i believe

thanks a ton for responding to the hypothetical and not outright trying to mm me haha. i agree with everything you've said.

at the end of the day maybe a vague statement is better than a specific one: i think the controller limits us a little too much for me to be perfectly happy with, and that mods could push the meta forward to the benefit of the community.

 

[-ACE-]

it comes down to subjectivity which we all agreed in the beginning i believe

thanks a ton for responding to the hypothetical and not outright trying to mm me haha. i agree with everything you've said.

No one chose to challenge you to a MM as a result of responding to your hypothetical situation. It's the unnecessary personal comment you made that brought that forth. This should be easy to understand. I'm a bit shocked that this is surprising to you, but after this, I won't be.

What doesn't come down to subjectivity is the fact that the extra notches change how the game is played, and they are NOT the standard. Buying a brand new controller isn't enough for a new player to enter a tournament on an even playing field now. Getting the controller is only step 1. Then comes research, buying tools, altering your controller gate, and buying another controller front piece if you get it wrong the first time.

at the end of the day maybe a vague statement is better than a specific one: i think the controller limits us a little too much for me to be perfectly happy with, and that mods could push the meta forward to the benefit of the community.

I don't think vague statements are really better. The controller limiting one too much is subjective, but people have gotten along fine with it for over 13 years. Can you explain? Since it was fine before, and now it's not, what happened? Is the new generation of smashers lacking fast fingers? Do they just see themselves as smarter than the people using the normal controller? How long will it be before some "innovator" says "these buttons are just way too far apart for reasonable consistency in tech, I don't see how someone couldn't see this as a misdesign!!" And moves all the buttons closer together? Is that guy a genius or a petty cheater (with possibly additional motives)? One thing is for sure. Melee hasn't changed. Melee wasn't always about finding ways to get an outside advantage (I feel compelled to highlight that by this I mean outside mental preparation and practice) that other people haven't "thought" of yet. The last sentence is unfortunately too vague. By that logic other mods should be developed to make melee easier to play at high level also.

Melee doesn't change. Only the players do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

"If you disagree with me, it's probably because you are bad at this game and stupid. But yeah nothing personal, I'm not saying I'm good or anything."

 

[Sutekh]

What do you think of many Smash 64 tournaments allowing Gamecube controllers to be used? Gamecube controllers have not been standard in the scene from the beginning, but was obviously added later on. Gamecube controllers are objectively easier to use, should that advantage be allowed?

 

[-ACE-]

What do you think of many Smash 64 tournaments allowing Gamecube controllers to be used? Gamecube controllers have not been standard in the scene from the beginning, but was obviously added later on. Gamecube controllers are objectively easier to use, should that advantage be allowed?

To me, that is hardly different from someone using a gamestop or mad catz brand controller. The controllers are at least somewhat similar, still have octagonal control stick gates, and are mass produced and inexpensive. The GameCube controller is widely known and excepted by Nintendo fans (and is the standard in every other smash game), and N64 controllers don't last anything like a GameCube controller. I can't say with certainty, but I'm willing to guess that it is much more difficult to obtain a N64 controller in near perfect condition than it would be to get a newish GameCube controller. N64 joysticks get loose and inputs get very hard to hit too. I just don't think this is an accurate example.

 

[Bones0]

What do you think of many Smash 64 tournaments allowing Gamecube controllers to be used? Gamecube controllers have not been standard in the scene from the beginning, but was obviously added later on. Gamecube controllers are objectively easier to use, should that advantage be allowed?

I don't think it should be, but it is a perfect example of how controller legality can get out of control if a non-standard method of control is allowed to catch on. It may be fine for the 64 scene due to GameCube controllers being so easily obtained and the standard 64 controller being designed so poorly (afaik they have major problems keeping sticks in working condition), but Melee is in a totally different situation. No one can possibly argue that custom notches are some sort of necessity to play the game. It's not even a matter of comfort, they are designed solely to gain an advantage over other players.

 

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They are designed to get an advantage over yourself.

Aside from N64 controllers having bad sticks, the players also gained a Cstick, which many deemed cheating for the longest time.
It passed though. And we got a new standard today.

 

[-ACE-]

They are designed to get an advantage over yourself.

But you're not just competing against yourself in tournament.

It passed though. And we got a new standard today.

If melee controllers were extremely scarce and had horrible sticks, and the N64 controllers were more ergonomic, much more accessible, more suitable for competitive gameplay, and the was standard for every other smash game, I'd say allowing the N64 controller in melee would be a good idea. It's hard to make a valid comparison.

 

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But you're not just competing against yourself in tournament.



If melee controllers were extremely scarce and had horrible sticks, and the N64 controllers were more ergonomic, much more accessible, more suitable for competitive gameplay, and the was standard for every other smash game, I'd say allowing the N64 controller in melee would be a good idea. It's hard to make a valid comparison.

I'd say the best solution here would be to fix the stick box of Gamecube Controllers (replace with N64?). Giving up the Cstick, being a macro thats just too good, would be too much of a sacrifice not to justify modding the controller.

 

[-ACE-]

I honestly forgot about the c-stick being a macro. But the main issue for me would definitely be the abundance/scarcity of newish controllers.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, bodied.

 

[KEYLIME SSB]

Wow that's quite a dead thread you got there. It would be a shame if something were to make it valid again