Legality Modded controllers in tournaments

[-ACE-]

I will just respond to that bit, because I agree with you that my wording / statement was bad here.

I *believe* that practice helps little in getting perfect angles, at least compared to most other things you can practice. To determine whether practice can ever give you the same level of consistency as using corresponding notches, we’d have to take lots of measures from those who claim to be able to hit these values from practice alone, and those who have proper notches for the perfect angles that they are familiar with, and compare these.

But doing so would take really long and not really be worth it, since I don’t think it would be deciding in the entire question this thread is about, so I took out the explanation why I think "practice doesn't really help here". I should have taken out the entire paragraph.

So yeah, I want to retract my previous statement you quoted, since that is only what I believe to be likely and not an objective truth.

You don't need an experiment for the notch any more than you need a experiment for seeing which puts water in a jug easier, a funnel or a straight pipe? One guides something into place. This is common sense.

 

[Kadano]

You don't need an experiment for the notch any more than you need a experiment for seeing which puts water in a jug easier, a funnel or a straight pipe? One guides something into place. This is common sense.

So you’re suddenly agreeing with me now? Interesting.

My original point was that the hybrid gate is not a substitute for what is accomplished with techskill practice, because it gives one a level of consistency that is (next to?) impossible without the hybrid gate. It’s separate from tech skill, as it fixes a problem the Gamecube controller has by default due to Melee’s input processing, and it’s an improvement for everybody, regardless of skill.

Your counter to that was that at the highest level, consistency is so high with perfect angles that the hybrid gate will make hardly any difference. Now you suddenly agree with me that even for players who practiced perfect angles on vanilla controllers a lot, the hybrid gate would be an improvement.

Before, you were saying that the hybrid gate was for cheaters who don’t want to practice to reach consistency. But now that you admit that practice (probably) never gives that level of consistency, I don’t really get how you can see the default gate shape as something other than a hindrance to consistency and, in regards to Melee, a misdesign.

 

[spider_sense]

I've been playing this game for 10 years + and I'm considered one the most technical players with my character. (Ganondorf) I've never once used a modded controller to help advance my skill. I grinded out my tech skill with hard work/dedication along with some bag of chips and gatorade here and there. I'd be utterly disheartened to even play this game if another player who spent less time with the game had a modded controller to help adhere to the games demanding tech. Its just simply isn't fair for honest players who committed true practice towards the game. Honestly, how would you feel if you knew your opponent had a clear cut advantage over you just because he/she has a controller that made shield dropping, wave dashing, L canceling much more feasible; then you go on to lose to that said player? My guess is that a majority of you would say "Oh it doesn't matter, he beat me FAIR and SQUARE" or "He did whatever it took to win" which is the most defeatist attitude to brandish when playing this game. I remember back in the day when players had more heart.

 

[Bones0]

Turbo buttons constantly output new input readings while pressed. You hold them and they perform many actions. A modded gate does not read more than one input with one hand input, which was the point of my post you quoted initially.

The distinction you're making isn't very convincing. You could have something like the L/R triggers correspond to jump, and reach analog input counted as a new button input. The difference between physical mods vs. electrical ones is all semantics. They both accomplish the same goal, and saying one is okay but the other is not is totally arbitrary.

 

[-ACE-]

So you’re suddenly agreeing with me now? Interesting.

My original point was that the hybrid gate is not a substitute for what is accomplished with techskill practice, because it gives one a level of consistency that is (next to?) impossible without the hybrid gate. It’s separate from tech skill, as it fixes a problem the Gamecube controller has by default due to Melee’s input processing, and it’s an improvement for everybody, regardless of skill.

Your counter to that was that at the highest level, consistency is so high with perfect angles that the hybrid gate will make hardly any difference. Now you suddenly agree with me that even for players who practiced perfect angles on vanilla controllers a lot, the hybrid gate would be an improvement.

Before, you were saying that the hybrid gate was for cheaters who don’t want to practice to reach consistency. But now that you admit that practice (probably) never gives that level of consistency, I don’t really get how you can see the default gate shape as something other than a hindrance to consistency and, in regards to Melee, a misdesign.

I agree with you? I guess you failed to see that putting liquid into a jug with a straight pipe takes more accuracy than using a funnel lol. At this point I feel like giving you a map and compass. Of course everyone will gain, but I'm not naive or unfamiliar with melee enough to believe everyone will receive an equal boost.

I don’t really get how you can see the default gate shape as something other than a hindrance to consistency and, in regards to Melee, a misdesign.

Well, this may be a difficult concept for some. But some of us want to play the game relatively as is, with no modifications that significantly make certain expects of gameplay easier, and be tested on our abilities alone. You are introducing something that physically guides you to a homemade spot and keeps you there....

regardless of having shakey hands, or lacking the precision with your thumb to keep it there without a notch, or any other reason why people haven't mastered the skill or can't perform it consistently. So it drastically narrows the window for error on one of the most basic (yet advanced) techniques in the game.

That is a lot easier than Swype texting the same thing to you. Either you don't understand something EXTREMELY SIMPLE, or you are just pu$hing your agenda and ignoring common sense.

 

[-ACE-]

It's often the mistakes people make that make them not high-level. And some people don't like giving out a free pass.

 

[Sieghart]

Either you don't understand something EXTREMELY SIMPLE, or you are just pu$hing your agenda and ignoring common sense.

It'd be nice if you stopped resorting to ad hominem attacks. It's very hard to take your point of view seriously when it seems you think your views somehow make you better than others.

Kadano is not ignoring common sense. He's arguing against, or at least beside, your point. This entire question of legality and fairness is subjective. That's kind of why the question was asked in the first place. You are not objectively correct and neither is Kadano. The difference here is that you come across as an ass because you seem to think you somehow are. I advise you to get off your high horse if you intend to be taken seriously.

 

[-ACE-]

Sieghart what is important is that the notches make many technical aspects of the game easier.

And I am not the only one engaging in what I'd rather call smartass-ness. But if you'd rather focus on what isn't important, that is not my problem.

 

[Sieghart]

Sieghart what is important is that the notches make many technical aspects of the game easier.

And I am not the only one engaging in what I'd rather call smartass-ness. But if you'd rather focus on what isn't important, that is not my problem.

I don't recall saying you were the only one being a smart ass. I said you were the one constantly and consistently using ad hominem. I don't recall seeing Bones do it, if he did it definitely wasn't nearly on your scale, so it's obviously got nothing to do with your side of the argument. For example, accusing Kadano of trying to push his agenda isn't a fair way to interpret his words or his point of view in general. It's just poor sportsmanship.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't recall saying you were the only one being a smart ***. I said you were the one constantly and consistently using ad hominem. I don't recall seeing Bones do it, if he did it definitely wasn't nearly on your scale, so it's obviously got nothing to do with your side of the argument. For example, accusing Kadano of trying to push his agenda isn't a fair way to interpret his words or his point of view in general. It's just poor sportsmanship.

If you can't see that he's biased, even after confessing.... Lol.

Kadano Scroll Massive I apologize for my occasional smartass remarks, which in all honesty I put for entertainment purposes, not to display hate or unnecessary rudeness. I am voicing my opinion extra here because I feel the players that value fairness more than the average player don't really have a voice on this issue.

Where would YOU GUYS draw the line? Removable gates that can be swapped based on matchup? An octagonal gate that rotated like an expensive watch, with every 4 clicks the octagon realigned for several configurations ranging from 8 sided, to 16 sided, to other configurations with 32 possible notch positions?

I feel the notch rule is a very slippery slope. A notch isn't just a notch. The size and shape will vary, which will cause them to vary in effectiveness. I truly believe a luigi main can carve notches slightly bigger than Kadano's ideally placed for perfect wavedashes and significantly improve his speed within days. This could be the difference between chaingrabbing fox and whiffing the first regrab attempt almost every time. Because on full DI, the maximum length wd is a must. So the gray area of improvement due to the notches can become more black and white at times to me. And the new chaingrabbing ability doesn't exactly seem earned, but it will certainly help him turn many, many more grabs on fox players into KO's than he could before the mod.

The first time I ever learned to maximum length wd 10 years ago, I thought to myself "man, this would be a lot easier with a notch right here. The way my thumb wants to move sideways more so than forward and back, combined with the angle of the gate and the lack of friction between the gate and the stick, make this a pretty difficult position to achieve immediately under times of high stress. It really wants to slide into the Cardinal direction. I need to learn how to keep better control of the stick."

I saw this aspect of melee as a unique challenge that I soon became eager to master. I see that some see this challenge as rather an outside nuisance that came out of nowhere. I was under the impression that we had been dealing with virtually nothing but the octagon for 14 years, and that people actually viewed being able to hold the stick against the slide-happy side of the gate (while your thumb naturally wants to go a certain direction) as a prominent skill in melee. People who have mastered this to a point where they can execute it consistently (without anything to help his accuracy), under high stress situations certainly have my respect.

If you were to put a cut mark into the octagon in the spot for perfect wavedashes, it would provide tactile feedback of the threshold, but it would not KEEP you in position easier like a notch would. And notches vary in size and shape. Food for thought.

In regard to the slippery slope regarding the legality of notches, and the modification of the notches themselves, since we have decided that manipulating how the stick moves via changing the gate is acceptable, I feel the next step is altering the stick itself.

It wouldn't be hard to make the shaft of the stick like a

Torx bit

And have corresponding small grooves in the gate, which would ensure that, as long as you were holding an outward direction, the stick would not move from its position in the gate.

Another example would be creating sharp points (like on those of a star) that perfectly correspond with sharp, small notches carved into the gate. With this tongue-and-groove type of fit, you would have to apply pressure within a relatively small range to have it leave the notch. And as far as inputting the angle, all you would have to do is ride the gate until it snaps into place. You could probably hold any direction in a 180ish degree range, depending on the angle of the notch, and not leave the spot. With the option to apply force in nearly half of the possible directions and never leave the perfect wd spot, how much skill is involved? Can you not say this wouldn't help?

 

[Massive]

I think my position has been pretty clear the entire time (it was in the OP, remember?).

But, so you don't have to read it again: I do not believe that modifications, like Kadano's or any others are unfair because they don't add anything you can't normally do in the game. They accomplish exactly the same thing as practice time does. In fact, you still have to practice with the mods, because they're not a magical "win" button for your controller (which I would completely support banning) they're just another tool to play this game.

I feel that mods should remain unregulated until we have a reason that doesn't involve wild speculation or saltiness to do so.

Finally, the controller is just a way to interface with the game, it is not part of the game. The N64 community didn't throw away keyboard players and the FGC has pad and fightstick players side by side. Why should we be so discriminatory? The controller is not a part of the game any more than your t-shirt is a part of you.

That's my position, and you are totally welcome to disagree with it. If you want to argue counterpoints feel free to do so, but try not to attack the very people you're trying to defend so much.

 

[-ACE-]

Massive I see you take the forum stuff to heart. I apologized but I'm not going to hold your hand. No hard feelings.

Are you saying modifying the stick in any way is fine, and that you've actually thought of using pointy notches or slots instead of rounded notches, and thought about the amount of necessary precision it would eliminate?

You can take the approach that I am illiterate or choose not to read your stance, but I'm only asking you again because I highly doubt you ever thought of this.

They accomplish exactly the same thing as practice time does

I cannot see how you can stand behind something you actually ADMIT is a substitute for practice, but oh well.

Back when I experimented with a notched controller, I was able to perfect wd OoS, and grab a friend that played Marth whenever he fsmashed my shield. I couldn't do this before the notch very consistently, so I chose other options normally (the alternative is airdodging and getting punished hard - big difference between that and ME taking the stock). With the new confidence that came with my new near-instant increase in success rate of executing the tech, I was able to grab him approximately once per game in this exact scenario, and I started taking games from him the first time. He never knew that I notched the controller, and it wasn't tournament, but it certainly didn't feel like I truly earned the win. I really don't see how situations like this are all that rare.

 

[Massive]

Are you saying modifying the stick in any way is fine, and that you've actually thought of using pointy notches or slots instead of rounded notches, and thought about the amount of necessary precision it would eliminate?

You can take the approach that I am illiterate or choose not to read your stance, but I'm only asking you again because I highly doubt you ever thought of this.

I don't think there's any iteration of the notch mod that I would consider to be unfair, because it doesn't give you any capabilities you can't obtain through other means with no modification. The best it can do regardless of the mod is make getting the angle easier. It won't make you better executing the wavedash frame perfect OoS or even better in neutral, it's literally just effecting the angle, something you can do without the mod.

I cannot see how you can stand behind something you actually ADMIT is a substitute for practice, but oh well.

I don't see it as unfair. People waste time practicing the wrong things constantly. Sometimes their "good" practice gets obsoleted by a changing meta.

I like good competition and I want people to be able to play as good as they can and feel and see progress within the game. If there is a smarter way to practice (like using 20XX or switching to the claw grip) that is something you can implement and incorporate into your play in a vanilla copy of melee, there's no reason not to use it.

If you lose to someone, you need to evaluate your own play in the match and what you can do differently, not pull the old "you only won because of X" john. People can already perfect wavedash reliably without this mod all a proliferation of this mod would do is increase their numbers. If you can't adapt your strategy to a changing meta you probably should just quit now, because it's only going to get worse.

Honestly, I don't even use or need notches on my controller. I made this thread because I feel like people have been badmouthing Kadano and his mods for stupid reasons. I think the vitriol I've seen here has convinced me that I might as well add some notches to my sticks at this point as well as some for anyone in my crew/region who wants them.

Folks already get salty when I beat them with puff anyway, might as well add another john for them to break up the monotony.

If -ACE- is right guys, the KC crew will soon be the best in the world.

 

[-ACE-]

The best it can do regardless of the mod is make getting the angle easier. It won't make you better executing the wavedash frame perfect OoS or even better in neutral, it's literally just effecting the angle, something you can do without the mod.

And you see having the skill and precision to keep the stick against the gate as irrelevant if the notch can do it for you. I understand. I, on the other hand, think this skill should be tested for in tournament, as it is one of the most prominent skills in melee. You would rather have one's ability to obtain the perfect controller become more of a factor than it was before.

It's not the people playing the game AS IS that are johning. At some point YOU johned about melee tech being too difficult to perform consistently, and found a way to get around this hurdle, as it was a little too high for you. I will not john about losing to anyone with a modded controller. I never john anyway, and I never said I would do that.

If -ACE- is right guys, the KC crew will soon be the best in the world.

Well you're a little butthurt lol but it's ok. You just think I am blowing this out of proportion because you haven't given this issue enough thought. You just admitted you made this thread solely to defend Kadano. At this point you are just repeating yourself and blowing my posts out of proportion.

 

[Kadano]

You just admitted you made this thread solely to defend Kadano.

And you just post in this thread to defend your countless practice hours against players who have tools to achieve the same stuff better and faster, because you are afraid they are going to waste. See, I can do ad hominem too. So cool.

(Please let’s stop these personal attacks, they are not helping anything. That’s all I want to say with this post. I don’t know whether this really is the reason why you push against modded controllers so much, although it sure seems like it. But I don’t think focusing on this and other personal stuff is good for quality discussion at all.)

 

[-ACE-]

No, that is a shallow assumption man. I'm simply speaking up for what I and many others think is right, and how melee should be approached in tournament. This is partially because I know many people aren't willing to speak up, or even know about this discussion. I play for fun, and to teach others. If you'll kindly look at the OP, massive states that he would "love" to hear some counter arguments. I provided that, plus a small amount of sarcasm and mild rudeness (as did others) once or twice. And then I defended against replies that made no logical sense from a competitive standpoint in my opinion. You are thinking about all these motives I might have for my stance on this, but in reality I am just pointing out the holes in the justification for making technical maneuvers in melee less demanding. It's good that people know that some people don't support this if they don't. You don't really want to have a town meeting where only 3 people show up and someone's asking "all in favor...." You see what I'm getting at. Don't jump to conclusions about a person's character so quickly, and focus more on the subject matter please.

I would really like to hear something about the points I addressed in the previous posts regarding the slippery slope of legality (and not just notches, but points and slots that make finding an angle simply riding along the gate until it snaps into place).

Also Kadano, I just realized that you probably didn't read that he actually DID admit to that, so I just repeated a fact, that wasn't some stupid ad hominem bs. And I have absolutely nothing to gain either way the legality goes.

 

[GenNyan]

Kadano Scroll Massive Where would YOU GUYS draw the line? Removable gates that can be swapped based on matchup? An octagonal gate that rotated like an expensive watch, with every 4 clicks the octagon realigned for several configurations ranging from 8 sided, to 16 sided, to other configurations with 32 possible notch positions?

I know that you were being sarcastic, but a controller that can alternate between modded and standard gates would be pretty cool. Even if mods ended up being banned, the modded gate could be used with the opponent's consent or in practice sessions, and could easily be swapped out to the normal version if needed for tournament sets.

 

[-ACE-]

I know that you were being sarcastic, but a controller that can alternate between modded and standard gates would be pretty cool. Even if mods ended up being banned, the modded gate could be used with the opponent's consent or in practice sessions, and could easily be swapped out to the normal version if needed for tournament sets.

I'm not being sarcastic though. Would you buy that (I'm not ever going to sell, just asking)? I mean since it's ok to change the gate, can you do it between games or mid-match?

 

[GenNyan]

I'm not being sarcastic though. Would you buy that (I'm not ever going to sell, just asking)? I mean since it's ok to change the gate, can you do it between games or mid-match?

I'd probably say that you should only be able to adjust it in between games or sets. Some players have a separate controller that they use for their other main, and there isn't any problem with that right now (I heard M2K does this, but I'm not sure because it was an unreliable source). Not sure why you'd even wanna change it mid match though. I would ban that if it became a problem however.

Also I wouldn't buy it because I personally don't want any mods for my controller.

 

[-ACE-]

Thanks for the reply. Interesting.

So that rules out the rotating gate lol, well I guess multiple configurations could have uses.

 

[Bones0]

I think my position has been pretty clear the entire time (it was in the OP, remember?).

But, so you don't have to read it again: I do not believe that modifications, like Kadano's or any others are unfair because they don't add anything you can't normally do in the game. They accomplish exactly the same thing as practice time does. In fact, you still have to practice with the mods, because they're not a magical "win" button for your controller (which I would completely support banning) they're just another tool to play this game.

I feel that mods should remain unregulated until we have a reason that doesn't involve wild speculation or saltiness to do so.

Finally, the controller is just a way to interface with the game, it is not part of the game. The N64 community didn't throw away keyboard players and the FGC has pad and fightstick players side by side. Why should we be so discriminatory? The controller is not a part of the game any more than your t-shirt is a part of you.

That's my position, and you are totally welcome to disagree with it. If you want to argue counterpoints feel free to do so, but try not to attack the very people you're trying to defend so much.

1. You claim notches aren't unfair because "they don't add anything you can't normally do in the game". This is simply not true, as is evident from the fact that you can't normally perfect WD or shield drop every time. Mods clearly do not accomplish the same thing as practice. By reducing how strict your stick control has to be, you can achieve a much higher rate of consistency with a lot less concern about messing up or having to focus on the tech at hand.

2. Even if it was somehow determined that you could achieve the same angle consistency without having to focus harder, it would still be unfair because all players do not have easy access to the mod. If you modded the game so that your L-cancel window was larger, it would still be unfair even though it's certainly possible for your opponent to L-cancel consistently without the mod.

3. How you interface with the game is definitely part of the game... If everyone is playing with turbo functions and macros and notches, the game is significantly changed. A good comparison is PC vs. console shooters. Anyone who thinks they are the same will be sadly mistaken when they go up against a mouse+keyboard user with an Xbox controller. The N64 community is obviously unique because they rely more on online gameplay and many players have become used to playing with keyboards. That said, I doubt keyboards are even at an advantage over controllers, and honestly if they are, they should be banned. As for the FGC, they don't have a standard controller, and I think this is again a bit of an issue. If you've never heard of Hitbox fight sticks, they replace the stick entirely with 4 buttons for up, down, left, and right. Players that use these controllers have a significant advantage when it comes to doing things like half circle inputs (it's like pressing A, S, D on a keyboard to input left, down, right). This is not only unfair to players who have been playing on sticks since the arcade days, but it alters how the game works. If you can Shoryuken a split second sooner than someone else with the same reaction time because of your controller, not only do you have a significant advantage that you didn't earn, but you fundamentally change which options are safe and which are not.

 

[-ACE-]

If you make the game easier, you've changed it.

 

[CAUP]

Massive You say you don't think playing with notches is unfair to someone playing without without notches, even though notches make doing a technique easier for one player than the other. Can you explain? Your answer is going to have to take into account risk reward for me to be satisfied.

 

[Scroll]

I sorta recently went through the painful transition going from standard to claw grip.
Aside from less hand pains I wholeheartedly believe that it gives me an advantage over my opponent as it grants instant access to the Cstick (which technically speaking is a macro btw, the Cstick that is) (so is the purple botton on the top right of your controller).
Did I change the game?

 

[CAUP]

Scroll No, you started playing the game differently. Your interpretation and implementation of the tools available to you changed. Adding notches changes one of your tools.

 

[Scroll]

Scroll No, you started playing the game differently. Your interpretation and implementation of the tools available to you changed. Adding notches changes one of your tools.

I think that using a controller with custom notches will enhance my gameplay by more or less the same magnitude as switching grips.
I recommend claw grip for anyone.
Sure you can do instant rising fadeback backairs with the standard grip but it requires relatively more dexterity and practice.

 

[CAUP]

Making a comparison between how much switching to claw and switching to notches will help your performance is irrelevant to the argument. Taking aderal could also have the effect of boosting your performance similarly. Should aderal be legalized? That has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Scroll]

How is it not relevant? It's sharply on point.
Just because it's counter productive to your arguments does not make it irrelevant.

Let's take it a step further.

What if you met a guy. Either by birth OR by choise he has 2 additional fully functional thumbs on his right hand.
He has a clear mechanical advantage over you. Over all of us. For obvious reasons.
He can click every one of the buttons available on the right side of the controller in quick succession (say 1 frame apart) if he wanted to.
Let's actually say that he purposely has the extra fingers operated on there with smash enhancement as his only goal.
Would you ban him from your tournaments?

Are you familiar with what the claw grip actually provides?
Earlier points were made that customizing controllers in a fashion that moving buttons closer together would be illegal.
By using claw grip you practically move any set of buttons so close together that they actually become one, with two functionalities that you can toggle with your mind.

I am gonna stop here. But it's actually true if you think about it.

*Aaaand in next episode of X-Files.....*

 

[Scroll]

And here is an aspect of the notches, some may or may not have thought about.
Melee has more angles than horizontal, vertical up, perfect wavedash length, shortest length and vertical down.

It can be argued that Kadano's notches could potentially hinder finding some of the magic angles in between.

 

[CAUP]

No, like really, explain to me how that "argument" is at all relavent? You find one comparison between two different things, that they both help you improve similar amounts in tech skill, and then equate them as analogous. It sounds completely nonsensical to me. Comparing switching to claw and adding notches is like comparing improving your form in some sport and taking steroids as the same thing. That is obviously an extreme example. What you are trying to do though just doesn't make any sense, it's not relevant at all.

 

[TidalWave]

Make melee less technical? Lol, wow.

 

[Bones0]

Scroll
The core issue with the arguments that you are making is you are equating advantages gained from changing things outside of the game with advantages gained by changing the game itself. A player born with 3 hands may very well be at an advantage, just like someone with a good reaction time or dexterity to use the claw grip. You might even make the comparison to a wrestler who has lost a leg (I'm not up to date on the wrestling meta and whether it is actually an advantage, but it can certainly be troublesome for opponents who don't know how to handle it).

The point is, none of these advantages are gained by changing the game, they are gained through birth or the player improving himself. Altering your controller is vastly different regardless of how similar the amount of advantage is.

Another good hypothetical I thought of is to imagine if controller cords significantly impacted how quickly your inputs are read by the game. Let's say the standard Nintendo controller has .5 seconds of lag. After 14 years of 100% of the population using the same length controller, someone decides to use one with a custom wire that is only a foot long. They reduce their input lag to .2 seconds. This not only gives the player an advantage over 99% of the community, but it fundamentally changes how the game is played because more attacks can be shielded on reaction. How is this fair? How is it any different from modifying your controller's octagon?

 

[Massive]

Your answer is going to have to take into account risk reward for me to be satisfied.

The risk-reward of what, exactly?

 

[Bones0]

The risk-reward of what, exactly?

Risk-reward of trying to perform a difficult tech vs. an easier one (eg. Going for a shallow angle that might result in a horizontal angle vs. going for an easier angle that is more likely to get hit by an edgeguarder).

 

[K1KK0M4N]

Kadano and OPs arguments are terrible!

Kadano is just trying to make money off of selling modded controllers.

OP is likely trying to gain an advantage using such controllers.

That's just how I see it...
Even if I'm incorrect about your intentions, these arguments are simply bullcrap!

"All controllers are not created equal"
True, but that's the same as saying that steroids and synthetic growth hormone should be legal in sports, because not every athlete produces an equal amount of testosterone and growth hormone naturally.

"The gamecube controller wasn't designed with these difficult techniques in mind"
The human body wasn't designed to be able to squat 1000 lbs, but with steroids it can, so steroids should be legal in sports?

Also, no controller is as good as a Kadano controller. It may have easier angles, but it won't have frkknig notches.... It's like a frikking aimbot ffs!



A person who has practiced shield dropping for 10 minutes with a kadano controller, will be as consistant as someone like me who has invested LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF HOURS INTO PRACTICING MY TECH SKILL!
I am NOT exaggerating.

Having these controllers legal means that I could have spent those thousands of hours learning how to play an instrument, or even jacking my D, but I chose to master movement in this game with the controller that was designed for the game.

Every day I practice my tech skill, even though I'd rather play some casual game, or just chill out since I also work 20-30 times a week and spend 5-7 hours a week in the gym....
Now my grandmom can get as consistant shield drops as me, if she's willing to pay Kadano for a mod.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Most of the people commenting on how kadano controllers are cheating etc don't event understand how his mods work, how GC controllers work and the random variability between them, lol.

I hope you people realize that it's not easier to shielddrop with a Kadano controller then it is with one that is randomly good at it. In fact, if you have EXTRA notches, it will most likely be easier to do it with a nonmodded controller that is randomly good.

The legality of extra notches, ie having more than the default controller has, is definitively debatable however.
I don't consider the advantage given big enough to be notable. Alot of people seem to think it does, and I think this goes back to people not even understanding how GC controllers work and what the mods do (and the limitations of modding)

But if the majority would vote for a ban I wouldn't really have a problem with it either.

Kadano is just trying to make money off of selling modded controllers.

Considering the amount of work this takes and the relatively low prices this doesn't make alot of sense. He'd just start working evening shifts at 7/11 if money was all he wanted.
Also consider the amount of work Kadano puts into researching Melee stuff for no profit. He enjoys doing this stuff. Be reasonable regarding his motivations.

You're just pissed. Take a breather bro.

 

[K1KK0M4N]

Considering how many new players would love a magical controller, I don't see how this wouldn't be profitable for Kadano.
And also a lot more fun thatn working evening shifts at 7/11

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

They're not magical. Won't help anybody who doesn't have techskill.
Again, the pay he takes isn't up to snuff with what a real job does, unless he works ridiculously fast. And if it was all about money he'd market more aggressively, and also take more pay. Most likely he'd sell one "magic controller" instead of having a huge guide that assumes some knowledge, it isn't exactly designed for quick-fix noobs.
Sorry man you're wrong about the motivations. You're free to think he's wrong or even ********, though.

 

[tauKhan]

Every day I practice my tech skill, even though I'd rather play some casual game, or just chill out since I also work 20-30 times a week and spend 5-7 hours a week in the gym....

So you would like to have less need for tech skill practice, yet you don't welcome this development which you seem to imply could help you move into that direction. I don't understand.

 

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The core issue with the arguments that you are making is you are equating advantages gained from changing things outside of the game with advantages gained by changing the game itself. A player born with 3 hands may very well be at an advantage, just like someone with a good reaction time or dexterity to use the claw grip. You might even make the comparison to a wrestler who has lost a leg (I'm not up to date on the wrestling meta and whether it is actually an advantage, but it can certainly be troublesome for opponents who don't know how to handle it).

The point is, none of these advantages are gained by changing the game, they are gained through birth or the player improving himself. Altering your controller is vastly different regardless of how similar the amount of advantage is.

Another good hypothetical I thought of is to imagine if controller cords significantly impacted how quickly your inputs are read by the game. Let's say the standard Nintendo controller has .5 seconds of lag. After 14 years of 100% of the population using the same length controller, someone decides to use one with a custom wire that is only a foot long. They reduce their input lag to .2 seconds. This not only gives the player an advantage over 99% of the community, but it fundamentally changes how the game is played because more attacks can be shielded on reaction. How is this fair? How is it any different from modifying your controller's octagon?

The 1 foot cord would become the standard within give or take half a year. A game that revolves around reaction, with the opportunity to improve input lag by 60% seems like a godsend and will instantly improve said game.
Why would you give up on such an opportunity?

What I was trying to do with my argument was so shed light on other aspects that all fit on the vast majority of the criteria that "guys opposed to mods" make.
It literally fits perfectly except they are not about the shape of the controller.
It's fine that you point that out, but it seems you missed the point or just deem it nonesense, which is fine too.

K1KK0M4N
Bro if you know anything about manual labour in this day and age you would know that doing this kind of work is not profitable.
People still do such things tho, but out of love for their craft.
I talk out of personal experience btw. I have built and sold custom rubik's cube type puzzles for a while. And believe me they require work. And lots of it.

Where I come from making mechanical improvements is happening all the time.
I was part of the competitive yoyo scene in Denmark for over 7 years. New models that would grant players an advantage came out all the time. Longer spin times, less friction, more stability.
Same goes for competetive Rubik's Cube solving.
I am used to this mind set and I am encouraging it.

Melee havent really changed at all, mechanically, since it came out.
I can see why some of you find it sacred.