TrashWizard
Smash Cadet
I wasn't aware there was a different way of doing this.
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Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NAKAT
- Start date
TrashWizard
Smash Cadet
Could you in theory shine so the opponent bounces on the floor and follow through to usmash. I feel that otherwise its such a terrible move.
Foxus
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2015
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- Greatfox1
The thing I notice about Fire Emblem mains is they often resort to their counter, especially if their opponent has racked a higher damage percentage. It is difficult, and possibly lethal, to try taking on a counter airborne, since unfortunately for non-FE mains, the FE characters can perform counters either on the ground or in the air. I seem to have the most trouble ironically with Lucina, since Lucina can be treated much like Marth.
Most competitive Marths, Roys, Ikes, and other characters with a counter (like Peach) don't spam counter or even use it very often in neutral or as a defensive option, instead opting to use it on a SUPER hard read or to stuff out linear recoveries (Ness, Fox, etc.)
If you end up with a Counter spamming player on your hands (say in FG), though, take note of how they use it. For instance: are they landing with Counter, using it to get out of aerial followups, or using it to stop your approaches? In the first case, after they do it a couple times and you pick up on it, the next time they land, grab them (if they're at low percents) and try to convert off a throw, or fully charge an up smash, letting it rip when the counter frames end (if they're above 85ish%, depending on character obviously). If they use Counter to get out of aerial strings, then once you pick up on that, hold back for half a second or so and then jump up and up air them, or back air if they're a little closer to the ground, as opposed to trying to follow up immediately. If they use it to stop approaches, read it and either grab (which beats counter), charge up smash to wait out the counter (if it'll kill), or just delay the approach you would have gone for if they weren't an avid Counter user (dash attack, nair, whatever), and convert from there.
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luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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- 7,215
If you've gotten to the point where you have decent mental game, can read opponents, and are always thinking about what they are doing and how you can pick them apart, you'll be very happy to play against a counter spammer because they'll constantly be giving you hard punish openings.
If you are getting wrecked by counter you can either work on your reading and mental game, or if thats too hard just start spamming grabs.
If you are getting wrecked by counter you can either work on your reading and mental game, or if thats too hard just start spamming grabs.
Top Boss
Smash Journeyman
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Pretty sure characters are forced in a tech chase situation from shine, but there's not enough frame advantage to punish someone who has teched. In order to up smash, you'll have to hope they miss the tech, and then punish their roll/neutral get up/get up attack.
TrashWizard
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I figured that out today after a 1v1 and trying to shine them. It was funny though because my opponent had that face that told me 'What are you doing? You idiot'.
Top Boss
Smash Journeyman
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Yes. It is pretty situational and inferior to Fox's other setups anyway.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Here's some theory crafting with Fox's ledge game from this thread;
http://smashboards.com/threads/foxs-up-throw-is-the-only-one-worth-using.428309/#post-20757200
Fox's ledge game is phenomenal. Because of how fast he is at moving onstage, he can cover a lot of the opponents ledge options and limit space for the opponent. Included in his ledge game is the "ledge-trumping" mechanic. Here are some of the applications of ledge-trumping, a mechanic that is avoidable but which Fox is very good at incorporating into his threat game;
Fox's Ledge-trump
Reflex's video on ledge-trumping; https://youtu.be/VR37CS30NAE
"Characters are forced to hold on to the ledge for about 20 frames ... If you buffer a ledge jump, ledge attack, or ledge roll, it is impossible to be ledge trumped"
There are exceptions to this rule; some characters only have to hold the ledge for 19 frames. However, the difference is miniscule. You can find a spreadsheet with ledge data here.
Dabuz on the topic; https://youtu.be/QGGe6pTtPQQ
Note that tether grabs act differently. The opponent is not forced to hold on to the ledge for the 20 frames before doing an action like regularly grabbing ledges; you are forced to stay on the ledge for 7 frames only.
With this knowledge in mind, how then can Fox use it to his advantage? For this example, we will assume Fox has grabbed the ledge in an attempt to ledge trump by running off and immediately pushing back to grab the ledge (if you are unfamiliar with how to do this; read here). This assumes that Fox did not allow ample time for the opponent to do a regular getup or ledge drop (20 frames + input). This is because these options CANNOT be buffered, meaning that the opponent is going to get trumped if you do a ledge trump perfectly before they even have the chance of doing a getup or ledge drop. This means that Fox waited a maximum of 20 total frames to ledge trump before the opponent he/she inputted the option immediately or got trumped. The only options that work to avoid a ledge trump are the ones which Reflex mentions; buffering a ledge jump, ledge attack, or ledge roll.
Scenario 1 - the opponent doesn't react and is trumped
You have two good options;
1. Follow up with drop ledge -> rising B-air. If the opponent doesn't air-dodge, they get hit.
For reference; when you are ledge-trumped, you are forced into an animation of getting shoved off the ledge, which lasts about 28 frames. This is half-a-second that your opponent cannot do anything while they fly helplessly in the air. Fox's B-air comes out on frame 9, but we are forced to stay grabbing the ledge for 20 frames before letting go and using rising B-air. This means it would take about 32 frames to get a perfect ledge-trump b-air; 20 forced + about 3 additional frames dropping and rising with double jump + using the 9 frame B-air. Note that you have to input the b-air as you rise with it. Hence, the opponent will only have roughly 4 frames max to react, since they have been shoved off and have to wait out the animation of 28 frames.
If you grab the ledge as the opponent is forced to do their 20 waiting frames and they get trumped, this will make ledge trump -> B-air virtually guaranteed.
If you do the ledge trump after they've waited out their 20 frames, the B-air won't be guaranteed because they have a chance to air-dodge. Furthermore, there are matchup specific factors that come into play whether the opponent will air-dodge or not; Characters with fast jumps, moves that allow some characters to quickly go back onstage or have invincible frames will be able to dodge and even counter Fox's B-air ledge trump. Examples include Greninja's high and quick jump, Yoshi's armored double jump, Sheik's bouncing fish, any moves that come out quick enough, and so on.
2. Since the opponent has that small time to air-dodge / do some quick action, you can just do a normal getup onstage. Another thing Luke pointed out was to do a rising B-air towards the stage, which you should land and autocancel it if done perfectly. If you manage to bait out the air-dodge, the opponent will have to wait the air-dodge animation before doing anything else. Most opponents will be forced to grab the ledge again, which will put them in danger. An opponent re-grabbing the ledge without being hit offstage loses invincibility but still has to wait 20 frames before choosing an action. If the opponent goes to grab ledge again due to lacking another option, you can punish them with a D-smash or the late part of F-smash. Characters with tether grabs would be at less risk and the time to punish their tether grab is stricter (7 frames) but still do-able.
Exceptions would be characters who have additional jump(s) or recovery options, like ZSS flip-kick and Yoshi's double jump.
Now I'm going to cover the options which Reflex showcases on his video; ledge-roll, ledge-jump, and ledge-attack. Ledge-roll and ledge-attack are almost the same, but ledge-jump varies slightly.
Scenario 2 - the opponent does a ledge roll
You can do ledge-drop > double jump > Fox Illusion back onstage to cover the roll and punish it. Ledge roll data;
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeRoll
Note how every ledge roll can be cancelled after 49 frames (50 being the first frame they can input anything), meaning the opponent will go through a minimum of 49 frames total before doing anything. This is universal in Smash4. Shield cannot be buffered from a ledge roll, so it would have to be input on frame 50 and come out on 51. No character has a move that comes out on frame 1 behind them while they're standing on the ground, meaning that the total is brought up to 50 frames at least where the character doesn't do anything.
Assuming the opponent read your trump and rolled (50 frames total);
Fox has 20 frames before dropping, about 2 frames dropping the ledge (input + action), then you double jump to get above the lip of the stage in position (Fox rises fast, this should take about 4-6 frames), and then use side-b (active on frame 21) onstage. To explain why this works, we need to look at Illusion's properties;
![]()
This was taken from the Lylat Datalink thread by Zelkam. This deadzone you see is for Fox's hurtbox. The hitbox trails right behind Fox's hurtbox throughout the move;
Essentially; on frame 21, the hitbox will be on the deadzone. On frame 22, the hitbox is where the hurtbox is for frame 21. And so on.
Fox's total is about 46-48 frames, while the opponent is just ending the last 4 frames of their 50 frame roll on-stage. This means you will catch the opponent's ledge-roll in their last 4-2 frames of vulnerability if done perfectly, and can be optimized by grabbing the ledge while the opponent buffers their option.
Illusion can confirm into a U-air or B-air if you hit near the middle of the move because of the angle it sends opponents at and if the % is right.
Scenario 3 - they ledge attack
You can also cover this with side-b, though you'll be sending them backwards if you hit them near the beginning of the move. Another option is to do a drop down -> f-air copter or rising U-air to hit them. The ledge attack lasts longer than the ledge roll, so you have plenty of time to cover it too.
Scenario 4 - opponent ledge jumps
Fox is unable to optimally punish opponents, as it largely depends on when you grabbed the ledge before their buffered action took place. For every characters not named Palutena, Duck Hunt, and Shulk, they have to wait at least 13 frames to fast-fall back down. Fox has to hang on to the ledge or at least 20 frames.
With Fox's regular get-up of 35 frames with the last two being vulnerable, you do 55 frames getting back up. Assuming you grabbed the ledge as the opponent buffered their ledge jump, your opponent will have at most 42 frames to get back on the ground (or close to you) and abuse the 2 frames of invulnerability before you can put shield up, roll, attack, etc. Ledge jump heights are significantly high in this game (about the top platform of BF), so this gives you more time than you think and little time for your opponent to punish your attempt doing a ledge-getup back onstage. Most characters (everyone who falls slower than Sheik) will not land fast enough to grab you if they don't fast fall, and most characters who fall slower than Link/ROB won't be near you to hit you with an aerial. You can continue the pressure with U-tilts as well.
Another option you can consider is to chase the opponent with a ledge-jump of your own, although this isn't risk-free either; your opponent can use an aerial to hit you as you rise, but it won't put you at risk if you predict your opponent will try to come back down to the ground fast-falling. Other options to consider as mixups; drop > jump > side-b is risky and almost the same as doing it when an opponent is waiting onstage for you. Watch where the opponent is before you commit to it. Drop > jump and simply landing onstage is faster than a get-up but without the invincibility. You can also drop and rise with U-air, which can land auto-cancelled onstage and covers Fox above him. Also keep in mind attacks that dive-bomb opponents down. This includes Yoshi Bomb, ZSS's D-air, etc. Be wary of shielding these or challenging them.
Since Fox can't really punish the ledge jump or pressure it as efficiently, why should the opponent be afraid of using this? This is where we expand out of ledge-trumping and cover more of Fox's options.
Fox's Ledge-Traps
Obviously you shouldn't be using the trump all the time. Faking a ledge trump can be as simple as dashing towards the ledge, short hopping near the ledge, dash-dancing near the ledge. This can force your opponent to use an action, which can let you mix up your Ledge traps in other ways;
Covering the Ledge Jump
If your opponent ledge jumps, you're in position to catch them with an aerial. A ledge jump would be the safest option against Fox's Ledge trump (as demonstrated above), since they will get back onstage well before you and at least reset the situation to neutral. However, one reason your opponent should fear jumping up on stage is getting caught by an aerial, Fox's b-air and U-air especially. N-air is a good option too, since it lasts a long time and the opponent gets pushed away offstage again.
Covering the Ledge Roll
You can use your ground speed to cover a roll and punish with Usmash at high % for the KO, or dash attack for the follow up. D-smash and reverse pivot f-tilt / u-tilt will work too, but they are stricter with timing.
Covering the Ledge Get-up
Jab can cover a ledge getup, but an opponent timing one properly will be able to shield it. A properly timed Fox N-air can push the opponent back on-stage. Or you can use F-smash (a la Snow) or Pivot D-smash if your opponent takes too long to get back up onstage. You can also pivot grab them if you think they'll do a normal getup and shield or throw an attack that launches them forward. Mixing in properly spaced SH B-airs can put pressure on the opponents shield if they get back up and shield.
Summary
I am only covering the universal ledge options above. As I mentioned with Ledge-Trumping, be careful of characters who also have good options from the ledge; Shiek, ZSS, Yoshi, Ness, etc. Be wary of air command grabs that go through shields against opponents travelling near the ledge. Be wary of quick rising attacks and recoveries that poke through the stage as well.
Yeah. Long post. Please let me know if anything is inaccurate or if there's something I could add.
http://smashboards.com/threads/foxs-up-throw-is-the-only-one-worth-using.428309/#post-20757200
Fox's ledge game is phenomenal. Because of how fast he is at moving onstage, he can cover a lot of the opponents ledge options and limit space for the opponent. Included in his ledge game is the "ledge-trumping" mechanic. Here are some of the applications of ledge-trumping, a mechanic that is avoidable but which Fox is very good at incorporating into his threat game;
Fox's Ledge-trump
Reflex's video on ledge-trumping; https://youtu.be/VR37CS30NAE
"Characters are forced to hold on to the ledge for about 20 frames ... If you buffer a ledge jump, ledge attack, or ledge roll, it is impossible to be ledge trumped"
There are exceptions to this rule; some characters only have to hold the ledge for 19 frames. However, the difference is miniscule. You can find a spreadsheet with ledge data here.
Dabuz on the topic; https://youtu.be/QGGe6pTtPQQ
Note that tether grabs act differently. The opponent is not forced to hold on to the ledge for the 20 frames before doing an action like regularly grabbing ledges; you are forced to stay on the ledge for 7 frames only.
With this knowledge in mind, how then can Fox use it to his advantage? For this example, we will assume Fox has grabbed the ledge in an attempt to ledge trump by running off and immediately pushing back to grab the ledge (if you are unfamiliar with how to do this; read here). This assumes that Fox did not allow ample time for the opponent to do a regular getup or ledge drop (20 frames + input). This is because these options CANNOT be buffered, meaning that the opponent is going to get trumped if you do a ledge trump perfectly before they even have the chance of doing a getup or ledge drop. This means that Fox waited a maximum of 20 total frames to ledge trump before the opponent he/she inputted the option immediately or got trumped. The only options that work to avoid a ledge trump are the ones which Reflex mentions; buffering a ledge jump, ledge attack, or ledge roll.
Scenario 1 - the opponent doesn't react and is trumped
You have two good options;
1. Follow up with drop ledge -> rising B-air. If the opponent doesn't air-dodge, they get hit.
For reference; when you are ledge-trumped, you are forced into an animation of getting shoved off the ledge, which lasts about 28 frames. This is half-a-second that your opponent cannot do anything while they fly helplessly in the air. Fox's B-air comes out on frame 9, but we are forced to stay grabbing the ledge for 20 frames before letting go and using rising B-air. This means it would take about 32 frames to get a perfect ledge-trump b-air; 20 forced + about 3 additional frames dropping and rising with double jump + using the 9 frame B-air. Note that you have to input the b-air as you rise with it. Hence, the opponent will only have roughly 4 frames max to react, since they have been shoved off and have to wait out the animation of 28 frames.
If you grab the ledge as the opponent is forced to do their 20 waiting frames and they get trumped, this will make ledge trump -> B-air virtually guaranteed.
If you do the ledge trump after they've waited out their 20 frames, the B-air won't be guaranteed because they have a chance to air-dodge. Furthermore, there are matchup specific factors that come into play whether the opponent will air-dodge or not; Characters with fast jumps, moves that allow some characters to quickly go back onstage or have invincible frames will be able to dodge and even counter Fox's B-air ledge trump. Examples include Greninja's high and quick jump, Yoshi's armored double jump, Sheik's bouncing fish, any moves that come out quick enough, and so on.
2. Since the opponent has that small time to air-dodge / do some quick action, you can just do a normal getup onstage. Another thing Luke pointed out was to do a rising B-air towards the stage, which you should land and autocancel it if done perfectly. If you manage to bait out the air-dodge, the opponent will have to wait the air-dodge animation before doing anything else. Most opponents will be forced to grab the ledge again, which will put them in danger. An opponent re-grabbing the ledge without being hit offstage loses invincibility but still has to wait 20 frames before choosing an action. If the opponent goes to grab ledge again due to lacking another option, you can punish them with a D-smash or the late part of F-smash. Characters with tether grabs would be at less risk and the time to punish their tether grab is stricter (7 frames) but still do-able.
Exceptions would be characters who have additional jump(s) or recovery options, like ZSS flip-kick and Yoshi's double jump.
Now I'm going to cover the options which Reflex showcases on his video; ledge-roll, ledge-jump, and ledge-attack. Ledge-roll and ledge-attack are almost the same, but ledge-jump varies slightly.
Scenario 2 - the opponent does a ledge roll
You can do ledge-drop > double jump > Fox Illusion back onstage to cover the roll and punish it. Ledge roll data;
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeRoll
Note how every ledge roll can be cancelled after 49 frames (50 being the first frame they can input anything), meaning the opponent will go through a minimum of 49 frames total before doing anything. This is universal in Smash4. Shield cannot be buffered from a ledge roll, so it would have to be input on frame 50 and come out on 51. No character has a move that comes out on frame 1 behind them while they're standing on the ground, meaning that the total is brought up to 50 frames at least where the character doesn't do anything.
Assuming the opponent read your trump and rolled (50 frames total);
Fox has 20 frames before dropping, about 2 frames dropping the ledge (input + action), then you double jump to get above the lip of the stage in position (Fox rises fast, this should take about 4-6 frames), and then use side-b (active on frame 21) onstage. To explain why this works, we need to look at Illusion's properties;
This was taken from the Lylat Datalink thread by Zelkam. This deadzone you see is for Fox's hurtbox. The hitbox trails right behind Fox's hurtbox throughout the move;
Essentially; on frame 21, the hitbox will be on the deadzone. On frame 22, the hitbox is where the hurtbox is for frame 21. And so on.
Fox's total is about 46-48 frames, while the opponent is just ending the last 4 frames of their 50 frame roll on-stage. This means you will catch the opponent's ledge-roll in their last 4-2 frames of vulnerability if done perfectly, and can be optimized by grabbing the ledge while the opponent buffers their option.
Illusion can confirm into a U-air or B-air if you hit near the middle of the move because of the angle it sends opponents at and if the % is right.
Scenario 3 - they ledge attack
You can also cover this with side-b, though you'll be sending them backwards if you hit them near the beginning of the move. Another option is to do a drop down -> f-air copter or rising U-air to hit them. The ledge attack lasts longer than the ledge roll, so you have plenty of time to cover it too.
Scenario 4 - opponent ledge jumps
Fox is unable to optimally punish opponents, as it largely depends on when you grabbed the ledge before their buffered action took place. For every characters not named Palutena, Duck Hunt, and Shulk, they have to wait at least 13 frames to fast-fall back down. Fox has to hang on to the ledge or at least 20 frames.
With Fox's regular get-up of 35 frames with the last two being vulnerable, you do 55 frames getting back up. Assuming you grabbed the ledge as the opponent buffered their ledge jump, your opponent will have at most 42 frames to get back on the ground (or close to you) and abuse the 2 frames of invulnerability before you can put shield up, roll, attack, etc. Ledge jump heights are significantly high in this game (about the top platform of BF), so this gives you more time than you think and little time for your opponent to punish your attempt doing a ledge-getup back onstage. Most characters (everyone who falls slower than Sheik) will not land fast enough to grab you if they don't fast fall, and most characters who fall slower than Link/ROB won't be near you to hit you with an aerial. You can continue the pressure with U-tilts as well.
Another option you can consider is to chase the opponent with a ledge-jump of your own, although this isn't risk-free either; your opponent can use an aerial to hit you as you rise, but it won't put you at risk if you predict your opponent will try to come back down to the ground fast-falling. Other options to consider as mixups; drop > jump > side-b is risky and almost the same as doing it when an opponent is waiting onstage for you. Watch where the opponent is before you commit to it. Drop > jump and simply landing onstage is faster than a get-up but without the invincibility. You can also drop and rise with U-air, which can land auto-cancelled onstage and covers Fox above him. Also keep in mind attacks that dive-bomb opponents down. This includes Yoshi Bomb, ZSS's D-air, etc. Be wary of shielding these or challenging them.
Since Fox can't really punish the ledge jump or pressure it as efficiently, why should the opponent be afraid of using this? This is where we expand out of ledge-trumping and cover more of Fox's options.
Fox's Ledge-Traps
Obviously you shouldn't be using the trump all the time. Faking a ledge trump can be as simple as dashing towards the ledge, short hopping near the ledge, dash-dancing near the ledge. This can force your opponent to use an action, which can let you mix up your Ledge traps in other ways;
Covering the Ledge Jump
If your opponent ledge jumps, you're in position to catch them with an aerial. A ledge jump would be the safest option against Fox's Ledge trump (as demonstrated above), since they will get back onstage well before you and at least reset the situation to neutral. However, one reason your opponent should fear jumping up on stage is getting caught by an aerial, Fox's b-air and U-air especially. N-air is a good option too, since it lasts a long time and the opponent gets pushed away offstage again.
Covering the Ledge Roll
You can use your ground speed to cover a roll and punish with Usmash at high % for the KO, or dash attack for the follow up. D-smash and reverse pivot f-tilt / u-tilt will work too, but they are stricter with timing.
Covering the Ledge Get-up
Jab can cover a ledge getup, but an opponent timing one properly will be able to shield it. A properly timed Fox N-air can push the opponent back on-stage. Or you can use F-smash (a la Snow) or Pivot D-smash if your opponent takes too long to get back up onstage. You can also pivot grab them if you think they'll do a normal getup and shield or throw an attack that launches them forward. Mixing in properly spaced SH B-airs can put pressure on the opponents shield if they get back up and shield.
Summary
I am only covering the universal ledge options above. As I mentioned with Ledge-Trumping, be careful of characters who also have good options from the ledge; Shiek, ZSS, Yoshi, Ness, etc. Be wary of air command grabs that go through shields against opponents travelling near the ledge. Be wary of quick rising attacks and recoveries that poke through the stage as well.
Yeah. Long post. Please let me know if anything is inaccurate or if there's something I could add.
BoxedOccaBerrys
Smash Journeyman
Just a stupid question, does anyone know the hitbox data for Fox' side tilt? Since I missed a pivot side-tilt and it hit from behind, by missed a pivot I went infront of them and I hit the side-tilt, it was odd. (which I used to my advantage with a side-tilt into an uptilt into Up-air combo)
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Top Boss
Smash Journeyman
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- NNID
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aahhhhh the famous buttcheek hitbox.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
yeah you can style on people pretty hard with that, heres a vid someone made a while back that showcases what you can do with it pretty well
http://smashboards.com/threads/pivot-ftilt-combo-video.408831/
Megamang
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,791
A little note on trumps: people often point out that buffered options prevent trumping. While this is true, buffered ledge options are fox's friend. Your opponent is acting on instinct and is easier to predict when they feel they must buffer everything. Additionally, it makes your timing easier.
V23
Smash Cadet
So hi, i made This https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pFs8LTihpp6dMSySBhQUabOl9yuZOS7cSWhs0mFurA0/edit?usp=sharing Today.
This is a Fox Tech Chase starters cheat sheet, worked quite hard on it. hope you guys like it. you may use it however you'd like to improve your game :D
also if there is a better place to post this, lemme know.
This is a Fox Tech Chase starters cheat sheet, worked quite hard on it. hope you guys like it. you may use it however you'd like to improve your game :D
also if there is a better place to post this, lemme know.
EpicSonicLatios
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2015
- Messages
- 94
V23
Smash Cadet
Thank you! it grows rapidly though more info filled (like up angled up tilt, aerial side-b etc..) If this will be on guides i'd love that! :D
and ofc proud to help my fox bros
V23
Smash Cadet
Green for low %, the more red it goes the higher the % is.
V23
Smash Cadet
It is a common issue with these who have advanced mind, you miss the obvious :-)
V23
Smash Cadet
lol.
though unrelated PP laser is good. i use it a lot to poke
EpicSonicLatios
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2015
- Messages
- 94
I have this wierd thing where if I consciously decide before the match to use lasers a lot, I still don't use them that much. However, when I do use lasers is when I'm playing someone who thinks they are SOO great with their advanced movement options and baiting. I played this one little Mac who let me rack up like 60% on one stock off of lasers because he was moving around and baiting in neutral waiting for me to stop shooting, but I mindgamed him and refused to stop shooting until he approached, to try and fluster him, and it worked.
V23
Smash Cadet
so you basically used laser how they meant to be used? hehehe
thats just good stuff right here. lasers are underrated!
WalrusBiscuit
Smash Journeyman
What are the best uses of Fox's Perfect Pivot up-tilt? Like what does it lead into etc.
V23
Smash Cadet
well you can cover distance with it. space like mad. you can juggle after you connect the u-tilt. its just a very very good move. spamable* to an extent
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luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
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- May 10, 2008
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- 7,215
So, 2 friends of mine were playing, one was playing fox the other was playing roaslina, and at the start of the match rosa jumped into the air, fox hit luma with a FAIR which caused luma to suddenly fly off the side of the level and die.
it was the first hit of the game, so apparently you can insta kill luma with a single FAIR if done right.
Who wants to experiment with this, see if they can replicate it, and find cool ways to instantly kill luma?
it was the first hit of the game, so apparently you can insta kill luma with a single FAIR if done right.
Who wants to experiment with this, see if they can replicate it, and find cool ways to instantly kill luma?
EpicSonicLatios
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2015
- Messages
- 94
Did fox get him with just the first hit, or all 5 hits, or somewhere in between? If I knew that I could investigate further.
TheRealSkid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2015
- Messages
- 105
Hi guys.
I've been playing the game since it came out but I have recently started picking up fox.
I just have a few questions.
-what are some good uses for the RAR bair?
-anyone have tips for the corrin matchup?
Thanks.
I've been playing the game since it came out but I have recently started picking up fox.
I just have a few questions.
-what are some good uses for the RAR bair?
-anyone have tips for the corrin matchup?
Thanks.
How does he do it, mind explaining? I'm a noob and just started to get into playing competitively, and I always noticed/admired how Larry routinely lands his up airs.
im not sure but put i've my own way to do it as fast :
Put the L button (GC controller) on jump then you will be able to jump high and really fast to do an up air follow up.
By setting the L button on jump you will be able to glide toss which can lead to a up smash kills (diddy kong match up)
Last advice :
Put the c stick on Attack to have a bigger pannel of attack
- f-tilt can lead to a up smash or 50/50 if he tech
- even if doing some chain up tilt is easy with up jump off things, you will be able to pivot up tilt easier with the C stick on attack
Umby
Smash Master
I'd appreciate some insight here. I have a recurring theme where I can't close out my matches. I can put in a ton of work, either to take a lead or adapt/come back from a deficit, but my opponents just go into defense mode and I can't open them up to finalize the kill. I also have no idea what I want to do for edgeguarding, which I'd assume would help with that problem. What should I be working on here?
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
I encountered this problem early on in the game and I decided to work on ledge punish game.
The idea is pretty simple, good players know to abuse shield against fox which makes it super hard for fox to get kills, they know you cant really do **** off a grab so they dont care about getting grabbed, which means that in these situations, you should be able to land grabs fairly reliably
Since all you can really do off a grab is get them off stage, then do that. When they clam up into defense move, just throw them off stage.
Then you kill them with your ledge punish game. (not edge guarding, thats a different story and except against a few select characters, fox cant really do too much in terms of edge guarding)
So what you should be working on is ledge punish game, now that you have a starting point you should be able to figure some stuff out.
the first thing you can do to familarize yourself with foxes edge punish tools, is to read this post http://smashboards.com/threads/mission-complete-fox-discussion-thread.368875/page-17#post-20760598
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Nate22Hill
Smash Apprentice
Combos for fox? Especially with di I need help with that.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
Wha? You're a native English speaker and you didn't even plan to at least go into depth with your question?
Utilt Utilt Utilt Utilt
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
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- 14,629
Going to assume you all labbed this, but has reverse jump canceled Up Smash instead of a regular running Up Smash or JC'd Up Smash out of jab, Nair, Dair, and Ftilt? confirms been figured any useful? The huge slide that happens could make reverse JC'd Up Smash safer in the cases where someone techs, air dodges - Bayonetta - or somehow lands and shields, Fox can slide out while still putting out a hitbox. Also, I have no idea if the hitbox really stretches out because of Fox sliding, but if it does, it could cover techs especially since if they tech early, you could run and do a reverse JC'd Up Smash to end up behind them instead of in front and stopping. Also, perhaps another ledge coverage option alongside Utilt and Side Smash for roll ins? In any case, style points. 
Eh... watching Pikazono doing reverse JC'd Up Smashes with Falco just gave me a thought, but there's the whole issue of Falco's Up Smash lasts 14 frames to Fox's 4 meaning even if the hitbox "stretched", it wouldn't matter as much as Falco's whose Up Smash lasts longer. Hmm... Fox with Falco's Up Smash('s active frames)...
Eh... watching Pikazono doing reverse JC'd Up Smashes with Falco just gave me a thought, but there's the whole issue of Falco's Up Smash lasts 14 frames to Fox's 4 meaning even if the hitbox "stretched", it wouldn't matter as much as Falco's whose Up Smash lasts longer. Hmm... Fox with Falco's Up Smash('s active frames)...
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
nah the hitbox doesnt really slide at all, its not out very long and if you do slide backwards with it you'll hit with the sourspot which will never kill anyone.
What you can do with this idea though is charge the smash.
So you run, do a reverse JC cancel usmash but you charge it, so as you slide through them you are charging it, that way if they stepdodge you can react by punishing the end of the stepdodge with the usmash, if they drop shield as you pass through them you can get them, and if they stay in shield you hit them with a somewhat (if not fully) charge smash which i THINK has more shield stun (not 100% on that though) and also as you said leaves you behind them so its harder for them to punish.
You can also do this as you run under someone as they are trying to land for a cool looking kill.
What you can do with this idea though is charge the smash.
So you run, do a reverse JC cancel usmash but you charge it, so as you slide through them you are charging it, that way if they stepdodge you can react by punishing the end of the stepdodge with the usmash, if they drop shield as you pass through them you can get them, and if they stay in shield you hit them with a somewhat (if not fully) charge smash which i THINK has more shield stun (not 100% on that though) and also as you said leaves you behind them so its harder for them to punish.
You can also do this as you run under someone as they are trying to land for a cool looking kill.
Diddy Kong
Smash Obsessed
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- Dec 8, 2004
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- 25,967
- Switch FC
- SW-1597-979602774
Lylat Warriors, how do you guys view the ZSS and Diddy matchups?