Mission Briefing - The Samus Social

[Chevy]

So, does anyone else here have the misfortune of fighting a decent zelda?

cant figure out what to do, sometimes i can clutch the win, but usually not.

First Problem is the massive reflect blue Diamond which negates missile spam.

Single missles reflected are ok, if i land cancel i can morph under it and carry on, though it doesnt put me in a positive situation.
Zair sometimes works, but i risk my own missile hitting me if i do it too early or too late (due to intangability of nayru)

then edgeguarding is a pain. often zelda is living longer than i am =/

and im struggling to get back on the stage once im off it.

Can get to the edge easy enough, but nayrus, and fsmash are pretty safe on most options getting up.

Any advise?

Use ice mode. Ice Up-smash kills early, and ice F-air outranges most of her aerials.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I do usually. It doesn't seem to outrange the one (or two) aerials that matter though =p. Ice up smash requires either him jumping without nayru, or me getting in really close. Both which aren't often. When that does succeed that's usually the one I clutch

 

[Giygacoal]

I've been told by a good Samus player that it's possible to taunt cancel the beam switch. Is it true? I've only managed to cancel immediately after the beginning of the animation, not after the switch.

 

[MonkUnit]

Yes, it is possible to taunt cancel the beam switch. However, you have to taunt cancel it later into the animation because it does not switch beams near the start of the animation.

 

[Litt]

I do usually. It doesn't seem to outrange the one (or two) aerials that matter though =p. Ice up smash requires either him jumping without nayru, or me getting in really close. Both which aren't often. When that does succeed that's usually the one I clutch

Zelda has very limited OoS options, it is what made her a poor character in melee, along with other things lol. Narpas.... Just learn and implement jab pressure and you will not have problems with zeldas

 

[Fortress]

There's that whole Farore's move I keep hearing about that you can do out-of-shield. I hear you can also waveland out of it to do... well, anything.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Yea, he's got wind tactics down.

Jab pressure works only once I can get out of neutral into a more offensive position. That's after I fake out a love successfully, or manage to get in with a zair.

 

[Fortress]

Yea, he's got wind tactics down.

Jab pressure works only once I can get out of neutral into a more offensive position. That's after I fake out a love successfully, or manage to get in with a zair.

If he's prone to overuse of Nayru's, you can always take advantage of the endlag on it. Missile > crawl > ice U-Smash can probably kill her at modest percents. Zelda's just as solid at controlling space as Samus, probably moreso with Nayru's in her toolbelt, making your own missiles more dangerous to use. Might be a matchup where you need to ditch normal convention to deal with it. Never really fought a Samus with my Zelda, but I'm assuming the idea is the same as SheikxPuff; that you can't approach it quite normally.

@ Chevy What have you got? Only things I can really come up with are taking advantage of Zelda's endlag on Nayru's, and exploiting her poor air movement.

 

[Narpas_sword]

endlag only exists if he doesnt jump. it cancels like our missiles otherwise (data may be slightly different, but the gap between is near nothing)

baiting a ground Love i can always get in, thats not the problem.

youre right though, just gotta be more careful and approach carefully.

 

[pizzacato]

So I never really believed how it's possible to avoid getting grab seemingly during the animation until I saw the frame data for Melee Samus's Grab.

Standing grab
Total: 94
Grab: 18-20, 22-37
Running Grab
Total: 74
Grab: 18-27, 30-33

Literally 2 and 3 frames for standing and running respectively where there is no grab box.

I did not know this. I know the only thing they changed about her grab in PM was making it shorter in exchange for a faster cool down. (Which was dumb. Samus will get punished regardless for an empty grab, at least keep it. Huge nerf imo, probably the worst)

Even Link/YLink's doesn't do that. It's a better grab for it imo, also it's so fast! Make her's grab faster at the expense of a shorter grab if nothing else!
It'd be nice to have this fixed, but Sm4sh is on the way so, eh.

 

[Chevy]

@ Chevy What have you got? Only things I can really come up with are taking advantage of Zelda's endlag on Nayru's, and exploiting her poor air movement.

Eh, not much. Nayru's doesn't have hitboxes on the top, so if they go for the reflect approach from above and D-air. I don't know the matchup well enough to say anything else, other than ice > fire. You can probably chain ice-fairs at low to mid percents, like you can on most floaties.

 

[Kaysick]

Windy City Smash just posted their character lessons at Smash 101 on Saturday. Hopefully next month I can do a Samus lesson since I'm arguably the best PM Samus player there. Maybe even Midwest? Probably pushing it there. Haven't met any other great ones except the one guy I faced in UFGTX but he's primarily a Melee player.

 

[Tero.]

Hello there!
I've started playing Samus a few days ago and I love the PM version. I've never played Samus in any Smash Game even tho I know a bit about how Melee Samus works.
I've been playing around with the new ice move and I love it so far.
Can somebody answer me a few simple questions? I've been searching around the topics and I couldn't find any quick answers

1) I guess both the Extender and Zero Suit Transformation are not possible anymore?
2) Any uses for the Crawl Attack?

And a more open and not so simple question: As someone who mostly only knows about Melee Samus what are the most important things to notice about PM Samus?

 

[Chevy]

Hello there!
I've started playing Samus a few days ago and I love the PM version. I've never played Samus in any Smash Game even tho I know a bit about how Melee Samus works.
I've been playing around with the new ice move and I love it so far.
Can somebody answer me a few simple questions? I've been searching around the topics and I couldn't find any quick answers

1) I guess both the Extender and Zero Suit Transformation are not possible anymore?
2) Any uses for the Crawl Attack?

And a more open and not so simple question: As someone who mostly only knows about Melee Samus what are the most important things to notice about PM Samus?

1) Nope
2) Sneaking under projectiles and high grab ranges, a safe poke through shields, combos into N-air/other stuff on hit

The single most important change is probably Z-air being useful. It's ungodly good, it's the same as Brawl, but you can Melee air-dodge to position it now. Perfect positioning, option out of air-dodge, gimp tool, zoning tool, it's ridiculous. Also it has a sweetspot at the tip. Other than that, learn to use crawl for positioning and dodging attacks and unsafe approaches, it goes under high grab ranges, such as Ganondorf's and Mewtwo's too. We've discussed a lot of uses for ice mode and her other new tools so I would just read through the previous threads for more. Good luck.

 

[pizzacato]

Good luck on your endeavors @ Tero. !!

Also if you recall upsmash in Melee was so bad.
In PM it's GREAT!

 

[Tero.]

Thanks a lot!
Also I just discovered that I can not live without my Fusion Gravity Suit anymore. I hope they'll make the Fusion Suit to become an actual Alt with the next update.

 

[Litt]

Thanks a lot!
Also I just discovered that I can not live without my Fusion Gravity Suit anymore. I hope they'll make the Fusion Suit to become an actual Alt with the next update.

Pretty sure you can live with out it, but there is always the mods you can do so you can have it in any version release

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Didn't somebody make a frame data post? I can't seem to find it

 

[Chevy]

Not for PM yet, unfortunately.

 

[Omega Male]

Hi, sorry, noob here. I watched ESAMS video on how to optimize missile spamming, but I still can't seem to figure out how to drop from a platform and shoot one so fast. Would anyone mind explaining this to me?

 

[pizzacato]

Hi, sorry, noob here. I watched ESAMS video on how to optimize missile spamming, but I still can't seem to figure out how to drop from a platform and shoot one so fast. Would anyone mind explaining this to me?

You should post this there. I personally can't figure out how to explain it other than push down then missile .. sorry

 

[Omega Male]

You should post this there. I personally can't figure out how to explain it other than push down then missile .. sorry

Haha ok will do. I may just be doing too slow or something. Just doesnt seem as smooth as everyone else. I just fall down lol.

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Hi, sorry, noob here. I watched ESAMS video on how to optimize missile spamming, but I still can't seem to figure out how to drop from a platform and shoot one so fast. Would anyone mind explaining this to me?

What happens when you try to drop and fire the missile? Is the missile just not coming out? Is there a delay before you drop from the platform? Are you starting the homing missile animation instead of the smash missile animation? If the missile is not coming out you're just not doing it fast enough...

I conceptualize it as two motions: flickdown return to neutral-> flick right/left + b return to neutral. Practice the motions without regard to the platforms until you can do them as fast as possible.

Also, if you're specifically missing the drop from a platform missile after the land on the platform missile then just practice dropping to missile independently.

 

[Kaysick]

So what would be a good secondary for Samus' bad match ups? So characters like Marth(which isn't as bad as Melee's MU), Charizard, Meta Knight, Ivysaur(which I personally think is a bad MU but I don't know if it really is), Link, and Tink.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

So what would be a good secondary for Samus' bad match ups? So characters like Marth(which isn't as bad as Melee's MU), Charizard, Meta Knight, Ivysaur(which I personally think is a bad MU but I don't know if it really is), Link, and Tink.

I personally feel like meta knight isn't too hard of a matchup for Samus, sinc3 I pull out my samus versus all metaknights.

I feel like as long as the secondary can beat whatever uncomfortable matchups you havebwith samus, then that is a good secondary. Have you tried Mario? Fireballs, I think, cancels out boomerangs, arrows,, and bombs from both link and toon link. That and, a fireball wall is pretty good against ivysaur, charizard, basically any character who doesn't have as good a projectile, or isn't mobile enough to get past them.

 

[Kaysick]

I personally feel like meta knight isn't too hard of a matchup for Samus, sinc3 I pull out my samus versus all metaknights.

I feel like as long as the secondary can beat whatever uncomfortable matchups you havebwith samus, then that is a good secondary. Have you tried Mario? Fireballs, I think, cancels out boomerangs, arrows,, and bombs from both link and toon link. That and, a fireball wall is pretty good against ivysaur, charizard, basically any character who doesn't have as good a projectile, or isn't mobile enough to get past them.

What do you do against MK? He can literally uair chain you for days and his transcendence doesn't help either. He's also much faster than you so he can smother you pretty quick. I don't do bad against pressure, but its still an issue against him.

Mario can be a good choice but I know he's just really unfair. In a win or lose situation, I can understand using him but I'd personally feel bad honestly. Also not too big of a fan of playing spacies but that's mainly because I haven't dug down to learn their tech. Midwest is turning into the Wolf pack, almost all of our Links have dropped for another character. Do you have any other suggestions?

 

[pinkdeaf1]

What do you do against MK? He can literally uair chain you for days and his transcendence doesn't help either. He's also much faster than you so he can smother you pretty quick. I don't do bad against pressure, but its still an issue against him.

Mario can be a good choice but I know he's just really unfair. In a win or lose situation, I can understand using him but I'd personally feel bad honestly. Also not too big of a fan of playing spacies but that's mainly because I haven't dug down to learn their tech. Midwest is turning into the Wolf pack, almost all of our Links have dropped for another character. Do you have any other suggestions?

Well..., for meta knight, I tend to stick on the ground, playing defensively. I try not to get put in the air, but when I do, I try to bomb jump stall and then fast fall missile cancel, or bomb jump away to the ledge. I like pivot grabs in the matchup, but otherwise, I punish the meta knight's approaches with up-smash if the try a dair, or a f-smash if they try a short hop nair. Zair makes them impatient and go high. Up-smash. Missiles make them impatient. Pivot grab or f-smash. Or maybe I have beenplaying against only aggressive meta knights that the defensive ones could potentially beat out everything I've done so far.

Hmmm. Wanna tell how you would rather beat those matchups? Do you wanna pressure them? Out camp them? Jump around projectiles and pjnish them? Samus can out camp, so maybe not that, but maybe you want to rub camping in their face in a less campy way? Diddy kong and bananas give you control if you play them right. The peanut gun helps beat out marth or link's recovery, unless they know how to swat the peanuts, or glide toss around them... opinions?

 

[Kaysick]

Well..., for meta knight, I tend to stick on the ground, playing defensively. I try not to get put in the air, but when I do, I try to bomb jump stall and then fast fall missile cancel, or bomb jump away to the ledge. I like pivot grabs in the matchup, but otherwise, I punish the meta knight's approaches with up-smash if the try a dair, or a f-smash if they try a short hop nair. Zair makes them impatient and go high. Up-smash. Missiles make them impatient. Pivot grab or f-smash. Or maybe I have beenplaying against only aggressive meta knights that the defensive ones could potentially beat out everything I've done so far.

Hmmm. Wanna tell how you would rather beat those matchups? Do you wanna pressure them? Out camp them? Jump around projectiles and pjnish them? Samus can out camp, so maybe not that, but maybe you want to rub camping in their face in a less campy way? Diddy kong and bananas give you control if you play them right. The peanut gun helps beat out marth or link's recovery, unless they know how to swat the peanuts, or glide toss around them... opinions?

That's a really smart way to combat MK. I'll really try to keep those in mind against him since the MK's I play are aggressive as well. The two names are Kappy and BLUX if you've ever seen them before.

I like to play a pressure game and I've been backing off a hyper aggressive style since it really doesn't get too many results. Diddy is a smart secondary, especially since DLA is an amazing Diddy main here in the Midwest. The main reason why I'm asking this is because all the other characters I enjoy playing as share almost all the same bad MU's as Samus, which really sucks.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

That's a really smart way to combat MK. I'll really try to keep those in mind against him since the MK's I play are aggressive as well. The two names are Kappy and BLUX if you've ever seen them before.

I like to play a pressure game and I've been backing off a hyper aggressive style since it really doesn't get too many results. Diddy is a smart secondary, especially since DLA is an amazing Diddy main here in the Midwest. The main reason why I'm asking this is because all the other characters I enjoy playing as share almost all the same bad MU's as Samus, which really sucks.

Kirby and Samus do share similar counter-matchups...

 

[Chevy]

I personally find Charizard to be one of Samus' easier matchups. He's big, so he eats 25% fairs consistently and can't avoid missiles well, plus he's fairly easy to gimp. Honestly, I would just pick up a sword guy maybe? Someone who can cut through projectiles and doesn't get destroyed by Mewtwo. If I wanted to really pick up a secondary for hard match-ups I would probably choose Ike. Just seems right off the top of my head.

 

[Kaysick]

How many of you guys are going to Big House 4? Would like to get friendlies with some of you.

 

[pizzacato]

I'm going to be at LTC2.
anyone else going..?

 

[Kaysick]

So I finally dug into BrawlBox and looked at Samus' frame data. Learned a bit more about her buffed usmash and fair (which I already knew were much better) and just how bad ice dtilt really is.

I can probably make a Samus frame data with .gifs of the data if you guys wanted. I know most of these just transfer over from Melee but it would be nice to have something compiled in one place. I don't expect 3.5 to come until after Big House 4 so these probably won't change until then. If you guys wanted, would you just want to see the hurtboxes & hitboxes? Polygons & hitboxes?

 

[Kankato]

Questions!

What is the benefit of jabbing an opponent's sheild? What are you trying to catch/punish?

Is there any benefit to Samus's crawl other than lazor evasion?

Tips for Samus on FD/SV?

 

[ES Lite]

Jab your opponent's shield -> They either stay in shield or react:
If they stay in shield: Jab again and repeat or punish any way you like (via grab most of the time)
If they react: Jab again to disrupt whatever they do. After your jab connects you can punish them to your heart's content. Usually people will fsmash for its horizontal range, killing potential and speed.

Crawl to evade any projectile thats not riding along the floor, you can also crawl backwards at the end of a stage, let go and samus will grab the ledge. Crawl tilts can setup for upsmash, among various other things

Learn how to fullhop double missile for FD.
Learn how to missile cancel with SV's moving platform, be aware of where you place your homing missiles if on top of the platform; they'll often collide with the platform if your opponent is on the stage/ledge

 

[Yung Mei]

@ Chevy are you going to September GC?

 

[Chevy]

I will be there. I missed the last one because I was out of state.

 

[Yung Mei]

sweet, lets get some games in (and teach me samus stuff pls)

 

[Chevy]

For sure, should be fun!

 

[KingChaos]

Question Samus peeps. In regards to the tether nerf I've been hearing that rising grapple after the first tether will be a good mix up option vs just using up b. Is this really gonna be viable? Like I don't know about you guys but my highest rising grapple seems to go about as high as up b maybe a tiny bit higher.
How is this supposed to really help us?