Miracle Of Light - Palutena in SSB4 (Featuring Cereza from Bayonetta-series)

[wpwood]

This is something I’ve been wondering for a long while now and I want to know what you all think. Kmpyj made a Palutena guide a few months ago (below). I watch a lot of Palutena videos and I look out for new ones (I’m not saying this to say I’m some amazing player by the way). Something I’ve never seen a Palutena player do is an auto-cancelled Dair to Smash attack. Why? I’ve listed the times where kmpyj does them. When I asked if they were true combos, he said yes.

-From 15:47 to 15:53, he demonstrates Palutena using auto-cancelled Dair to FSmash and auto-cancelled Dair to DSmash.

-At 16:32, he uses auto-cancelled Dair to USmash.

-At 16:01, he uses auto-cancelled Dair to UTilt to Uair.

I don’t do them because I only have the regular 3DS and it seems like it would be hard to do without a C-stick. Is there a reason why people don’t do them? My guess is that maybe it can be DI’d or maybe it’s risky going for an AC Dair. If kmpyj is wrong about those being true combos, I definitely don’t want to attack him or anything. I still like his videos.

I think you're confusing auto cancel with frame cancel. Dair has a hit lag multiplier of x1.5 and by landing the move right as you land the freeze frames align with the landing lag causing the landing lag to be greatly reduced. Dair doesn't AC till frame 1-2 or 48> (TY Kurogane Hammer) and the hit box is only active for 1 frame on frame 10. So it's not AC dair it's FC dair. Her smash attacks are laggy so you probably won't see a Palutena player use them too often in general. We should learn to recognize situations where we can get smash attacks out of FC dair though. There's a video on frame cancel here. I'm on a school computer and it has YouTube blocked so I have to link you to where it's already linked.

I use FC dair or dair in general to cover rolls. I'd rather not approach with it often because if missed the move has a good bit of landing lag and I would get punished hard. Instead I just stick to poking with fairs and should I get a FC dair I'll get some a good cover out of it.

I'll watched the guide on my phone but had to put it up so I'll check out the rest of it when I get home. It seemed pretty well made and informative.

But to be fair, I'm not sure many players know about it tbh.

Which is why the tech thread was finally made. Now if someone could sticky the thread more people could see it and more people could know (I say jokingly but kind of mean it). Admittedly it is small, but that's why I'm telling people about it. We haven't talked about FC aerials yet, although we haven't talked about a lot of things listed.

 

[kmpyj]

I think you're confusing auto cancel with frame cancel. Dair has a hit lag multiplier of x1.5 and by landing the move right as you land the freeze frames align with the landing lag causing the landing lag to be greatly reduced. Dair doesn't AC till frame 1-2 or 48> (TY Kurogane Hammer) and the hit box is only active for 1 frame on frame 10. So it's not AC dair it's FC dair. Her smash attacks are laggy so you probably won't see a Palutena player use them too often in general. We should learn to recognize situations where we can get smash attacks out of FC dair though. There's a video on frame cancel here. I'm on a school computer and it has YouTube blocked so I have to link you to where it's already linked.

I use FC dair or dair in general to cover rolls. I'd rather not approach with it often because if missed the move has a good bit of landing lag and I would get punished hard. Instead I just stick to poking with fairs and should I get a FC dair I'll get some a good cover out of it.

I'll watched the guide on my phone but had to put it up so I'll check out the rest of it when I get home. It seemed pretty well made and informative.



Which is why the tech thread was finally made. Now if someone could sticky the thread more people could see it and more people could know (I say jokingly but kind of mean it). Admittedly it is small, but that's why I'm telling people about it. We haven't talked about FC aerials yet, although we haven't talked about a lot of things listed.

Really nice thread that you made! I'll have to check out more of it when I get off work.

 

[lRasha]

I think you're confusing auto cancel with frame cancel. Dair has a hit lag multiplier of x1.5 and by landing the move right as you land the freeze frames align with the landing lag causing the landing lag to be greatly reduced. Dair doesn't AC till frame 1-2 or 48> (TY Kurogane Hammer) and the hit box is only active for 1 frame on frame 10. So it's not AC dair it's FC dair. Her smash attacks are laggy so you probably won't see a Palutena player use them too often in general. We should learn to recognize situations where we can get smash attacks out of FC dair though. There's a video on frame cancel here. I'm on a school computer and it has YouTube blocked so I have to link you to where it's already linked.

I use FC dair or dair in general to cover rolls. I'd rather not approach with it often because if missed the move has a good bit of landing lag and I would get punished hard. Instead I just stick to poking with fairs and should I get a FC dair I'll get some a good cover out of it.

I'll watched the guide on my phone but had to put it up so I'll check out the rest of it when I get home. It seemed pretty well made and informative.



Which is why the tech thread was finally made. Now if someone could sticky the thread more people could see it and more people could know (I say jokingly but kind of mean it). Admittedly it is small, but that's why I'm telling people about it. We haven't talked about FC aerials yet, although we haven't talked about a lot of things listed.

Thanks for the informative reply again. I would like to know what you think once you've seen the parts that I mentioned.

 

[wpwood]

Thanks for the informative reply again. I would like to know what you think once you've seen the parts that I mentioned.

Fell asleep while watching it last night and just finished watching it. Really well made guide. Actually learned and found a few new things to practice and study up on. FC dair is useful but risky. I would use it sparingly and try not to be predictable with it. As the guide said: don't focus on 1 style of play.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I don’t do them because I only have the regular 3DS and it seems like it would be hard to do without a C-stick. Is there a reason why people don’t do them? My guess is that maybe it can be DI’d or maybe it’s risky going for an AC Dair. If kmpyj is wrong about those being true combos, I definitely don’t want to attack him or anything. I still like his videos.

I can't speak for others, but as for myself, they just aren't worth the trouble outside of TAS theorycraft to me. In order to reasonably land a frame cancelled Dair, even assuming you have perfect execution, you need either a heavy read or a heavy punish. And in both situations, if I see the opportunity I'd rather take the damage I know I can get for sure rather than rely on a fairly difficult one-frame input. The risk isn't too bad; dair isn't safe but it's not like they're likely to get anything huge off of it (except characters with strong grab games, maybe), but when I have a big opportunity, I'd rather make sure I take advantage of it.

 

[wpwood]

FC dair can combo into dair right, at lower %s? So if someone gets a AR jab lock near the ledge he/she could do dair to dair maybe or they could do it without a AR jab lock. Also FC dair can cover rolls if you react almost instantly or guess which way they're going to roll. So it's still worth practicing.

Also jab 1 > jab 1 > dair is a nice mix up option when at the ledge. The dair isn't a true combo by the game, and I don't know what frame air dodge comes out on so I don't know if they even have time for air dodge to come out (but they could input it making it not true). Even if they could air dodge though you could just wait it out. There may be % ranges for it to be true, but I haven't found it. Maybe it's true on some characters, but also haven't tested that enough.

Jab 1 > Jab 1 > Aerial is a nice mix up as well. I condition the player to jump away by going for a grab after 2 jab 1s. Kind of how I condition people to roll in after Ganon side b by going for wiz foot and then hit them with an f-smash when they finally do roll in. I'm salty that I can jab lock with Ganon better than I can jab lock with Palutena, but not too salty since Ganon f-smash can kill at the ledge at 30 with the charge from a jab lock.

5 more days for buffs? Please give us some buffs daddy Sakurai. I have my Christmas list all filled out and I've been a good boy this year . It's just a lot of little things though. Mostly reduced lag on certain moves and increase KBG on fair, and make up tilt suck the character in so they don't fall out on the first hit (like Pika) and so it can hit smaller characters or crouching characters (Pika).

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

I was originally for 2322, but after talking with some other players and playing customs I realized I like default more. Except f*** counter and give me lightweight. I liked customs because honestly they felt easy and I had fun with them, but seemed very predictable after some time using them. I like the mind games that have to go into playing default Palutena much more than the kill confirms off customs (unless the person knows what to expect). Plus there is so much tech that would get ignored if customs were in play. Which is why I made a tech thread (sticky?). Just making it I realized the potential of the character and I think customs would make much of the tech almost useless or people would opt not to use them because they have slightly stronger (more predictable) options with customs. Of course a great player would utilize both, but her custom moves make you want to use them. Spacing is essential for Palutena and when the 2 other side b's are moves that travel the stage why worry about micro-spacing. I use swag walking for micro-spacing, but now that very useful tech will get looked over by super speed or angelic missile; a great player would learn to maximize use of both of course.

Smash 4 is more mind games and the options out of her special moves are limited compared to the options out of A-moves. Her customs make her slightly stronger, but more predictable. However, Palutenas, now, hardly use specials in matches compared to other characters using specials (I actually went through and counted Palutena special use compared to the opponent for a few matches), while in custom matches specials will get used a lot more meaning against a good player the Palutena player COULD be more predictable. Some of the customs are best used at a distance which means it all comes down to player reaction speed that can determine the moves effectiveness, and a good player will have a good reaction speed. A-moves are still the most used moves and her A-moves imply safety where most customs imply offense. The two sets do not complement each other, but that's the beauty of custom Palutena I guess.

My thought is why divide your resources and be decent when you can be great in one category that should work very well in this game. Of course like you said, personal preference to how you want to play Palutena. That's the beauty of the character after all. There's also the fact that custom Palutena will probably not get allowed at nationals, so might as well practice what I'm gonna play and learn to make use of all that tech. Now if only the Palu boards weren't so low on traffic and I could actually talk to others about tech application in here .

I still practice custom Palutena just in case. If she's ever allowed, I'll be ready. Also, there's a local tournament every 2 weeks I go to that allows custom Palutena/Miis. So at least I get to play her twice in tournament out of the month. lol

 

[wpwood]

I still practice custom Palutena just in case. If she's ever allowed, I'll be ready. Also, there's a local tournament every 2 weeks I go to that allows custom Palutena/Miis. So at least I get to play her twice in tournament out of the month. lol

As long as we all enjoy the character we play. Winning is just a bonus, a really nice bonus. Probably the best bonus you could receive. It is today, my friends. The moment we have been waiting for; prepare to lab any changes and find the much wanted buffs.

 

[PHP]

wpwood I hope she gets buffed allot this patch (ending lag, start up) It would make her more fun to play.

 

[Jterr]

Autoreticle isn't as good as it sounds
Her smash attacks are really strong but laggy
She has combos but her tilts aren't that good. Especially forward tilt.

 

[PHP]

Autoreticle isn't as good as it sounds
Her smash attacks are really strong but laggy
She has combos but her tilts aren't that good. Especially forward tilt.

Forward tilt is useless and needs to be buffed

 

[Jterr]

Forward tilt is useless and needs to be buffed

Up tilt and down tilt are better, and up tilt can be a kill move. Forward tilt barely has any knockback and when I use it I use it by accident lol.
But Palutena has other great tools, like her jab that can lead to follow ups, her ridiculously high up smash, and her fair and up air are great. Down air as well.
But I think the Goddess needs a little more

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm a Bayo main now

Bottom tier was fun you guys. Good luck.

 

[wpwood]

I'm a Bayo main now

Bottom tier was fun you guys. Good luck.

I'll come join you with Corrin and Cloud. I've been looking for a sword character. Although, I'll keep Palu around for some fun. RIP the Palutena Boards come February.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

The new characters are cool and all but I can't drop Pally. She's too much fun and I'm too dedicated to being the best with her for me to do that.

I probably gained a couple new secondaries tho

 

[4chanJoe]

Not dropping Pally at all but I will have Bayo as my co-main now. I'm just happy that I can now play a smash game where I can main both of my vidya game waifus. Today was a really good day.

 

[PHP]

Corrin looks like a character I could use as a secondary. If you're going to main Beyo you're probably going to end up dropping Palutena all together because (imo) Beyo looks like a full commitment character

 

[wpwood]

I'm just glad there's a sword character I'll like to play as now. Palutena has a shield and Corrin and Cloud have swords and Beyo has her guns.

 

[Maraphy]

Corrin looks really cool. They'll compete with Rosalina as my secondary for sure. Bayo also seems REALLY fun, can't wait to try her out.

 

[kmpyj]

I don't think I can ever discard Palutena, even if I wanted to. I put too much time and effort for me to just drop her in the end, and she is literally my second best character.

That being said, Bayonetta looks sick, and can't wait to see what other can do with her. Cloud is a blast, and I'm thinking about pocketing him. And a know not many people are happy about Kamui, and I feel like I'm the only one interested. I'm thinking about pocketing him as well.

I might pocket Bayo too. Man; choices, choices.

 

[Maraphy]

Had some pretty interesting matches on For Glory lately, I posted them all in the Video thread. There's matches against C. Falcon, Megaman, some with Kirby, and also Cloud, if anyone was having trouble with any of those characters. The Cloud and Kirby vids had some cool combos / kills that i'm proud of, but overall I still need practice lol

 

[PHP]

Oh my...matchup wise Palutena has gotten considerably worse this patch. The bowser matchup has literally been flipped on it's head (especially with bowser's amazing pivot grab) and his ability to kill Palutena insanely early 60%-80%, Lucas is now an even bigger pain than he was before with the almost lagless tether grab which can go past reflect even with the windbox, the Shulk MU is a little worse because of the landing lag reduction on Shulk's aerials, and to top it all off her MU against cloud is 50/50 at best. This is pretty bad, to think not changing her at all would indirectly nerf her :/

 

[Maraphy]

A little salty that I just had probably The Best Match in my entire smash career against a Kirby player on FG just now, but my replays were full T_T

 

[PHP]

A little salty that I just had probably The Best Match in my entire smash career against a Kirby player on FG just now, but my replays were full T_T

Damn dude...that happen to me yesterday

 

[Maraphy]

Is... is her "Poor little Pittoo" victory taunt still in the game? I won 5 matches against a Dark Pit and haven't heard it o_O

 

[4chanJoe]

Is... is her "Poor little Pittoo" victory taunt still in the game? I won 5 matches against a Dark Pit and haven't heard it o_O

Yeah it's still in there, I've heard it a couple of times. It's just a case of bad victory screen RNG

 

[lRasha]

Here and there when I'm in Wal-Mart I'll go to the electronics section to look at the Smash Bros Guidebook (it's not saran wrapped or however you spell it). This is what it says about her Forward Tilt

"Palutena sends her staff spinning in front of her. Best used against groups of opponents."

I've read something else about her UpSmash. I don't have the exact words, but it said that it prevents people from approaching you. What do you all think? I feel like Forward Tilt can't be used the way Sakurai wants it to because of shields combined with the end lag of the move. UpSmash has enough end lag to make her approachable. My thoughts are pretty much nothing new. Her flaws are pretty clear. I still like her even though I would like that buff someday though. lol I will say... it is satisfying when you do land an UpSmash kill. =]

 

[AlvisCPU]

Here and there when I'm in Wal-Mart I'll go to the electronics section to look at the Smash Bros Guidebook (it's not saran wrapped or however you spell it). This is what it says about her Forward Tilt

"Palutena sends her staff spinning in front of her. Best used against groups of opponents."

I've read something else about her UpSmash. I don't have the exact words, but it said that it prevents people from approaching you. What do you all think? I feel like Forward Tilt can't be used the way Sakurai wants it to because of shields combined with the end lag of the move. UpSmash has enough end lag to make her approachable. My thoughts are pretty much nothing new. Her flaws are pretty clear. I still like her even though I would like that buff someday though. lol I will say... it is satisfying when you do land an UpSmash kill. =]

For ftilt, I guess 'against groups' is a use. I might have to make use of her in the next Squads tourney. I feel like fair is generally the better option but ftilt feels like it'd wall people out better because of the longer hitboxes. Shame that the damage isn't good. Up-smash might stop people approaching aerially (or at least put them off as they approach, even if they air-dodge), but horizontally I don't think the opponent will care.

 

[TheRealPalutena]

After not taking this game seriously (barely playing) for a while now....went to a tournament and managed to win. While I am happy about that I am VERY sad that I was forced off of Palu in Grand Finals...Was Vs Rosalina and my Palu was just getting walled out the entire game.

Went ZSS (a character that I BARELY PLAY) and was able to win much more easily..and it just made me very sad because of how much time i previously put into Palu and that matchup just to get shut down so badly and win with a character i haven't even put a fraction of the time with. Makes me wonder why I even try so hard........

That being said.....I'll definitely be playing Bayonetta and I dunno how much that is going to effect how I feel about Palutena being my #1 Main. Depends on how much I like her or not.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

I know the feel (playing vanilla Diddy Kong the first time vs. playing Palutena since Japanese 3DS launch), lol, but I've also experienced it from the other side where I try to play better characters, but end up doing my best with Palutena. Bayonetta will be fun for sure, and I can't wait to develop this character!

 

[TheRealPalutena]

I mean Palu is my best character for sure..No question. Its just upsetting when you really understand how limited she is >.<

(Though I already knew but never actually bothered me until now)

 

[wpwood]

I don't mind the limitations too much, but sometimes they get a little annoying. What bothers me are the DLC characters getting such good tools and characters that are better or have better tools getting buffs, while Palutena has only received a 1% damage buff to fair, an adjustment to f-tilt, and a nerf to explosive flame. I'm just gonna hope for a nice Valentines day gift for the Goddess from Sakurai.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

The thing is, Palutena's designed around her customs, and with that in mind, she's not likely to receive any more buffs.

 

[wpwood]

The thing is, Palutena's designed around her customs, and with that in mind, she's not likely to receive any more buffs.

Yet, even with customs she didn't place well at Evo. Although you said yourself didn't have the MU experience against JohnNumbers WFT. Maybe with a bit more MU knowledge and a bit more time to practice customs you would have done better, but the point is that custom Palutena didn't place too well. Customs may be her design, but there are a few things that hold her back even with customs, and it's a lack of kill options or the speed at which those kill options come out or end. Given a few tweeks to KBG on a few moves and a few tweeks to some frame data, she'll be better in default while still not being broken in customs. Customs are a "buff" but they're not the buffs she needs right now or buffs that people would even allow right now. We'll find out in December what Sakurai thinks Palutena needs and we'll all gripe or celebrate together.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Yet, even with customs she didn't place well at Evo. Although you said yourself didn't have the MU experience against JohnNumbers WFT. Maybe with a bit more MU knowledge and a bit more time to practice customs you would have done better, but the point is that custom Palutena didn't place too well. Customs may be her design, but there are a few things that hold her back even with customs, and it's a lack of kill options or the speed at which those kill options come out or end. Given a few tweeks to KBG on a few moves and a few tweeks to some frame data, she'll be better in default while still not being broken in customs. Customs are a "buff" but they're not the buffs she needs right now or buffs that people would even allow right now. We'll find out in December what Sakurai thinks Palutena needs and we'll all gripe or celebrate together.

There may still be hope for Palutena come the potential last patch.

 

[PHP]

She needs so many buffs I don't think they're going to bother giving her the Ike treatment. I'm pretty sure there's going to be at least 2 more patches (one after the patch in February to balance the new characters). It been 5+ patches and Samus still hasn't been fixed so I doubt Palutena will buffed any further.

 

[wpwood]

There may still be hope for Palutena come the potential last patch.

by December I meant to say February which is the last patch. I'm holding out hope that some buffs will come. Banking on the fact that Sakurai was the main reason Palutena even got into smash and that he wouldn't want to leave her under preforming. He does attend tournaments in Japan so he sees how characters work and some flaws probably that play testers wouldn't see.

 

[Maraphy]

She needs so many buffs I don't think they're going to bother giving her the Ike treatment. I'm pretty sure there's going to be at least 2 more patches (one after the patch in February to balance the new characters). It been 5+ patches and Samus still hasn't been fixed so I doubt Palutena will buffed any further.

I've been watching Samus vids tbh and I actually think she's p solid now! Check this out (The 3rd match especially): https://youtu.be/FsF9ILfswfM

She did get some buffs in the past, so maybe it just took some time for players to capitalize on them.

On the actual topic though, lol, I'm not sure if they'll buff Palutena by much more since I agree they probably balanced her more around customs, but, who knows..

 

[PHP]

I've been watching Samus vids tbh and I actually think she's p solid now! Check this out (The 3rd match especially): https://youtu.be/FsF9ILfswfM

She did get some buffs in the past, so maybe it just took some time for players to capitalize on them.

On the actual topic though, lol, I'm not sure if they'll buff Palutena by much more since I agree they probably balanced her more around customs, but, who knows..

By "buff Samus" I meant fix her hitboxes so they don't whiff as much. Sorry for not clarifying.

As for Palutena, her entire default set has issues but this is probably because she's "the custom character" I can list a huge list of reasons

• Her reflect's FAF is so late you can move while reflect is still active
• Warp's startup is stupid
• AR's startup
• AR's lockon whiffs at random distances and has a ton of lag
• Counter is slow and has a sourspot for no reason AND has the second highest lag of all counters

And that's just the specials, I haven't even gotten to her normal moves yet She has so many issues I don't even know how they overlooked her and a few other characters (Shulk, Zelda, etc.) I feel like the some people in the patch team have no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing characters (just look at Bowser and Mewtwo) Bowser went from bad to brain dead up throw up air in just one patch. It didn't fix him it just made him stupid, but Mewtwo on the other hand got the perfect buffs that fixed his jank hitbox problems without destroying his weaknesses (his weight). The patch team over look simple things such as Marth and Lucina's. They don't really need better frame data, the real issue is their range. Who cares if the side B changed they still get out ranged by Sheik's fair for no ****ing reason. Falcon's and Ness's Forward smash should not have more range than the Sword Marth's/ Lucina's forward smash. There's so many things wrong in this game to patch team has no idea what to fix!

 

[BrazenBee]

It's quite interesting to see that a lot of Palutena players are interested in picking up Bayonetta (myself included, and I haven't even touched the games). I guess it's the supernatural sassiness that draws us in...!