Miracle Of Light - Palutena in SSB4 (Featuring Cereza from Bayonetta-series)

[mimgrim]

Bad neutral game means the character can't be that good at aggression. It helps in defensive options as well, of course, but it's far more help in the aggression gameplan.

Palutena's neutral game is very limited with it basically just being grab, jab, Fair, and Bair (Reticle and Super Speed can be included as well). It's very similar to Project M Sheik really. Her neutral game is pretty much just grab, jab, Nair, Bair, occasional Fair, and Needles. It may seem like it is there, but it really isn't. Palutena is like a mix between Melee Peach and Project M Sheik.

 

[Gerpington]

I come from the land of the cosmic star, I harbor no ill will. Your goddess of light has touched my heart in a way I am not sure I am comfortable with...and I have come to seek guidance from the children of her church.

(translation: I'm a rosalina main, but am greatly enjoying how Palutena feels to play as, specifically 2,2,1,3 customs. And I have come here to join in conversation)

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Bad neutral game means the character can't be that good at aggression. It helps in defensive options as well, of course, but it's far more help in the aggression gameplan.

Palutena's neutral game is very limited with it basically just being grab, jab, Fair, and Bair (Reticle and Super Speed can be included as well). It's very similar to Project M Sheik really. Her neutral game is pretty much just grab, jab, Nair, Bair, occasional Fair, and Needles. It may seem like it is there, but it really isn't. Palutena is like a mix between Melee Peach and Project M Sheik.

So are you saying she is or isn't aggressive? You are saying Sheik/Palu has a bad neutral game and thus isn't good at aggression? But then you say right after that it's "more help in the aggression gameplan". I assume you are saying she is more an aggressive character than a defensive one, even though their aggression isn't that great.

If you're saying she has a bad neutral game, I will refuse to believe you unless you specifically address what we can analyze at the moment (AeroLink's games) and tell me why exactly what he was doing (his zoning and his good neutral game performance) will not hold up. Because to me he does a great job playing a defensive Palutena and forcing his opponent to take the initiative which lets him get those grabs and punishes and creating walls.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think you understand what a neutral game is.

Palutena has a very similar neutral game to Project M Sheik. As in doesn't really have one. She doesn't want to approach. She wants to force you to approach. Just like Project M Sheik.

The neutral game is the time when neither character has positional advantage and are trying to approach. Palutena is not good at this. Hence bad neutral game.

This isn't to say a good neutral game can't help in the defensive regard, but it's primary purpose is to help in the approach game.

 

[Gerpington]

And yet here I am....angelic missiling everywhere.

I am bad and should feel bad.

 

[kmpyj]

I don't think you understand what a neutral game is.

Palutena has a very similar neutral game to Project M Sheik. As in doesn't really have one. She doesn't want to approach. She wants to force you to approach. Just like Project M Sheik.

The neutral game is the time when neither character has positional advantage and are trying to approach. Palutena is not good at this. Hence bad neutral game.

This isn't to say a good neutral game can't help in the defensive regard, but it's primary purpose is to help in the approach game.

I don't think I really follow what you mean. I find Palutena's approach skills to be very decent. Her fair is very quick and is perfect when up close. And her Bair is not only powerful, but it has a shield frame as well. I always dash and turn into a Bair whenever I am in pursuit. It protects me, and damages the opponent. Palutena may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but she does have a decent approach game. In fact, compared to my main Mario (who between the two does the most combos) Palutena is that one character that I play a "poke poke" game. I guess I'm the one to talk. I always go after people aggressively no matter what character I play as.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Hmm, I do enjoy the discussion on Palu. I can understand both players perspective. I think her neutral game is pretty good since she doesn't have to worry about projectile spam. I feel she is more of a bait character with offensive & defensive tools. I do think you have to be more wise about her move selection than other characters because a missed smash attempt will get you punished. I can understand why someone would say her neutral game is sub par because she doesn't necessarily have strong moves that force responses like ZSS's Side B/Zair, Diddy's bananas, Rosalina's Luma, Megaman Pellets/B. I feel when I play her to get kills, you need a read or a punish where as other characters you can space your kill moves or throw out projectiles and still be safe. However, with customs its a different story.

Just my 2 cents and I could be wrong, we only had the game for almost 2 weeks, what if Palutena's DACUS is good!?

 

[Wintropy]

And yet here I am....angelic missiling everywhere.

I am bad and should feel bad.

I do the same thing. You are with friends here, my child, let your past woes be discarded and your rebirth be baptised in peace and love.

Angelic Missile's a solid move and I'm sticking to that. I love launching myself at opponents who're prepping up to launch a counter-strike and just blasting them to hell and back with my divine rocket heels.

 

[kmpyj]

I do the same thing. You are with friends here, my child, let your past woes be discarded and your rebirth be baptised in peace and love.

So powerful words there my friend.

 

[mimgrim]

Hmm, I do enjoy the discussion on Palu. I can understand both players perspective. I think her neutral game is pretty good since she doesn't have to worry about projectile spam. I feel she is more of a bait character with offensive & defensive tools. I do think you have to be more wise about her move selection than other characters because a missed smash attempt will get you punished. I can understand why someone would say her neutral game is sub par because she doesn't necessarily have strong moves that force responses like ZSS's Side B/Zair, Diddy's bananas, Rosalina's Luma, Megaman Pellets/B. I feel when I play her to get kills, you need a read or a punish where as other characters you can space your kill moves or throw out projectiles and still be safe. However, with customs its a different story.

Just my 2 cents and I could be wrong, we only had the game for almost 2 weeks, what if Palutena's DACUS is good!?

It's scary how close are listed mains are so close to each other. Only 2 differences.

 

[Gerpington]

I do the same thing. You are with friends here, my child, let your past woes be discarded and your rebirth be baptised in peace and love.

Angelic Missile's a solid move and I'm sticking to that. I love launching myself at opponents who're prepping up to launch a counter-strike and just blasting them to hell and back with my divine rocket heels.

I feel like I am about to get molested...but in some weird way I don't mind.

Wanna get veggie juice with me later?

 

[meleebrawler]

Can't we all just be happy that Palutena is a character that can definitely be
played in more than one way thanks to her customs?

 

[Gerpington]

Can't we all just be happy that Palutena is a character that can definitely be
played in more than one way thanks to her customs?

No. Happiness is for nerds.

Palutena, FD no items, missile only.

 

[chipndip]

But she most definitely IS "about" making walls. Because that's what makes it hard for them to approach, and allows you to read them and punish their approach and get grabs. She has fair as a quick move with decent range. She can read and stop dashes with ftilt and dtilt. She can read and punish rolls with fsmash (especially with the wind effect that stops their roll short and leaves them in front of you with their backs turned). She can cover both a dash and roll approach with ftilt. She can also throw out an occasional counter to mix it up. She even has that reflect barrier which can stop them short and leave you a fsmash or a grab. Her dodges are also very good especially because it's harder to read them, and she can get away from opponents by warping away or just running away with her huge speed. She also has that good dash attack that helps prevent ground approaches even more, and lets you attack through their attack or even bash them through their projectile if they try to camp you. Almost everything in her moveset is built around zoning and punishing them.

I also disagree that Palutena has a bad neutral game and that she has to be aggressive. AeroLink showed quite convincingly that her neutral game is very good and that her defense is excellent as well.

I would like to argue against that notion. That vid that was posted showed a clear mix of both offensive and defensive play. Just because her specials are defensive, doesn't mean she's defensive.

If anything, those specials just help in making offense less of a bother, since she can counter other offensive characters and reflect against projectile spammers (a very spammable reflect). Thinking of her as a one-dimensional defense-oriented character will limit your options and net you unnecessary losses, seeing how she can't do much at truly long ranges (AR doesn't go more than about 1/2 of the stage or less).

Can't we all just be happy that Palutena is a character that can definitely be
played in more than one way thanks to her customs?

She can be played more than one way even without custom moves.

Mainly, what I'm saying is that you can't go all in like a rush down char because her moves hit like heavy bruisers, but you can't wall out because she honestly can't spam or hit-hard from long-range like projectile characters. The meta for playing this character is gonna lie somewhere in between those big bruisers and the rush down characters, using small hits until the big finish, but with the mobility of lighter characters.

 

[Fluttershy]

Not all of Palutena's Specials are solely for Defense. Her Default four however are mostly defensive. Some of the customs are offensive (rocket Jump, Super Speed which can go both ways as it can help her play some mind games..) she can play defensive or offensive whenever she wants to or when the situation requires it.

 

[Gerpington]

Not all of Palutena's Specials are solely for Defense. Her Default four however are mostly defensive. Some of the customs are offensive (rocket Jump, Super Speed which can go both ways as it can help her play some mind games..) she can play defensive or offensive whenever she wants to or when the situation requires it.

All I know is I can't do vanilla (default) palutena at all.

 

[mimgrim]

^That's why I refused to play Palutena in For Glory when I got to play it unless I know I am going up against a a projectile spammer. So I stuck mostly do my pocket character in For Glor, Little Mac. Did find myself using Diddy, Falcon, and Lucario a good bit as well.

 

[Gerpington]

^That's why I refused to play Palutena in For Glory when I got to play it unless I know I am going up against a a projectile spammer. So I stuck mostly do my pocket character in For Glor, Little Mac. Did find myself using Diddy, Falcon, and Lucario a good bit as well.

Rosalina for me, though I have an issue when playing rosalina and then switching over to palutena. The dash attack is shorter and faster and it bugs me.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I've been using Rosalina from time to time with palutena. A lot of other times I'll use peach if someone pissed me off.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I try to be good with default and my own custom Palutena. I'll agree that default is "defensive". All I can manage to do in neutral is bait/ run up and jab/ spam f-air/ spam jab>grab. I almost went to time against a freaking Greninja.... that matchup... may be one of her most difficult. She's no Melee Falco that's for sure. But their sex kicks both have low lag and can lead into more moves.

Anyone try doing d-grab>shff n-air> turn around re-grab? I really like doing that. Its so much fun. Its "kinda" like a chaingrab. Its not. But.... its almost one.... ;-; If they're a dodge spammer/counter spammer than its good against them.


Considering running
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Warp. Explosive Flame. Super Speed. Lightweight.

experimenting with different things. Explosive flame is kinda strange though. Better than heavenly light.

 

[Fluttershy]

I've been using Warp/Jump Glide (depends on which one i feel like using), AR (Explosive flame at times), Counter/Lightweight (haven't done much with CF), Super Speed/Reflect (depending on opponent..)
Rocket Jump and HL are the ones i won't be using..
AM i like but i feel that SS is better may occasionally use it though..

 

[mimgrim]

Ever since I found that Firework halts Palutena's jump, which effectively allows her to use it OoS, I've really grown on it. I might go back to Lightweight for easier follow-ups though, but there is still the penalty of the move after it ends.

As for Sspecials. Super Speed is the best one. This just can't be debated. You go into a fast dash where you whole body becomes a hitbox and you can do anything out of the move that you can out of a dash plus a few other fun stuff and if you hit with the move's hitbox you can follow-up into some really good moves. It's an extremely great mix-up tool. Reflect has its use in certain MUs though. I don't see much about Missile.

Uspecial is up to players preference. Want a stable and reliable recovery that can get you out of a nast situation? Go Warp. Want another kill option and a good Uspecial OoS. Go Rocket Jump. Want a kind of mix between the two with a reliable recovery but not as reliable as Wrap and can't get you out a nasty situation as well either and a recovery that you can do any air attack out of but none have the power of Rocket Jump and it's isn't that good of a OoS option? Go Jump Glide. Personally I prefer Warp.

Nspeical. Heavenly Light is bad. Don't use it. Ever. Explosive Flame is kinda niche since it always goes the same distance, it has situational use. Mainly in edge-guarding and shield poking (the final hit will hit through the shield). Auto Reticle has the most range, insane vertical range and horizontal range that is a little over half of FD, and is the best at forcing approaches. AR is my go to pick.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I still think we need to do some Palutena dittos that should be recorded. Discover some stuff with her using our different styles and experiences for the greater good. Besides, the place could use more videos and such. At best, we might be able to discover new things.

 

[mimgrim]

Sorry. Don't have WiFi. Only time I get WiFi is when we go to Houston and we rarely take the computer with us when we go so I get limited to For Glory, where I won't play Palutena.

Now if you lived somewhere in San Antonio maybe we could meet-up at someplace like Oople or Ultra Arcade or something. Other I can't. :L

 

[chipndip]

Not all of Palutena's Specials are solely for Defense. Her Default four however are mostly defensive. Some of the customs are offensive (rocket Jump, Super Speed which can go both ways as it can help her play some mind games..) she can play defensive or offensive whenever she wants to or when the situation requires it.

Let's just assume that I'm talking about her default set when I talk of Palutena. I don't take interest in straying from the FG rule set.

Speaking of which, I'm actually finding more success with her as I play her. I probably jumped to conclusions when I said she was awful.

If someone is looking for matches, I can try some. I'm not sure how solid the net will be where I'm currently at, but it's worth a shot, right? Besides, I wanna believe I'm not all talk.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ever since I found that Firework halts Palutena's jump, which effectively allows her to use it OoS, I've really grown on it. I might go back to Lightweight for easier follow-ups though, but there is still the penalty of the move after it ends.

As for Sspecials. Super Speed is the best one. This just can't be debated. You go into a fast dash where you whole body becomes a hitbox and you can do anything out of the move that you can out of a dash plus a few other fun stuff and if you hit with the move's hitbox you can follow-up into some really good moves. It's an extremely great mix-up tool. Reflect has its use in certain MUs though. I don't see much about Missile.

Uspecial is up to players preference. Want a stable and reliable recovery that can get you out of a nast situation? Go Warp. Want another kill option and a good Uspecial OoS. Go Rocket Jump. Want a kind of mix between the two with a reliable recovery but not as reliable as Wrap and can't get you out a nasty situation as well either and a recovery that you can do any air attack out of but none have the power of Rocket Jump and it's isn't that good of a OoS option? Go Jump Glide. Personally I prefer Warp.

Nspeical. Heavenly Light is bad. Don't use it. Ever. Explosive Flame is kinda niche since it always goes the same distance, it has situational use. Mainly in edge-guarding and shield poking (the final hit will hit through the shield). Auto Reticle has the most range, insane vertical range and horizontal range that is a little over half of FD, and is the best at forcing approaches. AR is my go to pick.

Jump Glide, when used from the ground, can almost be like Super Speed,
but with more potential for fake-outs.

Maybe Heavenly Light would be better in teams? A way to tack on damage without interfering
with your partner.

I kinda like flame better since it can come out even when the opponent is rolling or out of range,
making it more reliable and forcing respect.

 

[The_Altrox]

I've been playing vanilla Palutena off and on, and I see potential in this character, but she feels kinda Zelda-ish to me thus far. Like, she can hit really hard and do some crazy stuff, but at times, she's super awkward, especially in the air. Not sure if I want to stick with this character or not.

 

[Fluttershy]

I can only have matches on Tuesday and Thursday since the Lag at home is pretty bad.. I'd probably only be able to battle someone that is in close proximity to my location online..

 

[chipndip]

I can only have matches on Tuesday and Thursday since the Lag at home is pretty bad.. I'd probably only be able to battle someone that is in close proximity to my location online..

Well I'm in Houston, so if you're close to that locale, then maybe.

 

[Fluttershy]

Well I'm in Houston, so if you're close to that locale, then maybe.

my Location is in Maryland, so Texas would be too Far away..( I had a battle against one of my friends in Florida and the match was laggy...)

 

[Utena]

Dittos are one of the most pointless things ever but hmu when the Wii U version drops lmao

 

[Admiral Pit]

People say dittos are pointless... Until someone beats them with their own character outta the blue. It's a matchup like any other, and it should be learned. Plus, you may learn more things about your main in the process.
That's what happened when I found that random JP player who kinda hurt me badly in the 30+ minute marathon of Palutena dittos in For Glory last week.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Dittos are never pointless you're always learning something new about your own characters.

 

[Wintropy]

I agree with @ Admiral Pit and @ Nabbitnator on that sentiment. Mirror matches tend to give me a lot of trouble that other match-ups don't - you need to learn to play against somebody with your own weapons and skills, and that can actually lead to you understanding things about the character you never even knew about.

There is an old saying: "Know thine enemy as you know thyself." If you can't beat yourself, you need to keep training.

 

[mimgrim]

That's part of the reason I try to learn a pocket character. So I don't have to do mirror matches. But it can be difficult at times as you want a character that doesn't have a huge advantage over your main, so like even or small advantage is the best, while also covering your main's bad MUs. Hopefully Paluten main and Pocket Mac proves to be a good choice. If not I can alway change one of them to Falcon, Diddy,or Lucario or possibly even Brawler. My main and pocket are definitely not set in stone as the metagame develops more.

 

[Fluttershy]

Ditto's are one of the most important match-ups that you can learn from. If you are getting beat by your own character you can try using what they used against you against other people..

 

[Utena]

Ditto's are one of the most important match-ups that you can learn from. If you are getting beat by your own character you can try using what they used against you against other people..

no... then you only figure out how to beat other people who use your main.. You should practice other characters against someone who plays your main so you can get better with them and learn more of your mains matchups and weaknesses in the process.

 

[Wintropy]

no... then you only figure out how to beat other people who use your main.. You should practice other characters against someone who plays your main so you can get better with them and learn more of your mains matchups and weaknesses in the process.

Variety is the spice of life, m'darling. You don't just disregard mirror matches for arbitrary reasons if you want to learn what your main can do.

I'm going to say we just end this here, though, because there's no cause for this to turn into a redundant argument, alright? Alright.

 

[Utena]

well its not really an argument but i do agree that variety is good
thats why i prefer not to play mirror matches. a lot of people end up lurking their own boards trying to find games and only end up getting ditto practice which doesnt really help.

Dittos don't help you learn your main as much as watching top players play your main/playing against more characters.

 

[Fluttershy]

no... then you only figure out how to beat other people who use your main.. You should practice other characters against someone who plays your main so you can get better with them and learn more of your mains matchups and weaknesses in the process.

but some of the things may also work against some of the other characters you will be fighting against not just your own character...