Mindgames With Sonic

[TwinkleToes]

Pretty sure you're talking about ground canceling Tenki. Anyways, bair leads to shield grabbing so I would be surprised if you hit them with a whole lot out of it.

 

[Tenki]

ground cancel, whatever lol. either way, you can move as soon as you land from a B-air.

Also, if you space it to hit with the foot, it still pushes them back enough so you wouldn't get shieldgrabbed. ;o

 

[TwinkleToes]

Unless they power shield it which is relatively easy against bair.

 

[FrostByte]

You can do it while moving away, and the bair has a little disjoint right at the end. I think it's weaker than the sweetspotted part though, a bit like Falcon's thigh/lower leg.

 

[Napilopez]

I can't remember ever being shieldgrabbed out of a well spaced Bair, so I think it's pretty effective.

Simple mindgame: delayed dash attack out of a fox trot. Sonic's foxtrot is pretty laggy so you can start a dash attaclike a full second after you've finished inputting the foxtrot. it throws off you enemy's timing.

 

[R4ZE]

have you guys ever jumped forward at sum1 and hit bair? and basicly.... hit them with sonics face while the bair goes off? the knockback goes the same direction as if sonic fair'd but obviously greater knockback becuzz its a bair.

 

[Tenki]

happens alot when I'm recovering @.@;

which sucks cause it knocks them further into the stage instead of away from it.

though there were a few times when I did the u-throw>spring>b-air combo and killed the person with the front of the B-air lol.

 

[TwinkleToes]

I've never noticed much difference in bair's hit boxes, what part are you guys referring to when you say "sweet-spot?"

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Yeah,I'm wondering that too.....

 

[R4ZE]

bair has a sweet spot? i wasnt aware..... i think i hit the face-bair 2 times today, and it had like the same knockback of a normal bair.

 

[Browny]

the b-air stays out for quite a while, you can fast-fall and hit with the weaker part, just like snakes. the sweetspot is the majority of the attack, only the last few frames have low knockback

 

[FrostByte]

I think the front also has less damage and knockback.

 

[Umby]

So do we have a name for Sonic's ability to fox-trot and slide a good extra distance before the fox-trot finishes?

To do what I'm saying... tap forward and hold long enough to do a full "grind style" slide, but not too long to start a full sprint. Then just barely press foward and sonic will slide even further.

You can get across final d in like 3 of these.

I say we call it "grind" or "creep". Idk. Decide on something so I can make an easier reference to it.

 

[R4ZE]

I think the front also has less damage and knockback.

u sure sonics face is connecting right when his foot goes out? If the knockback is decreased, its not by much.

 

[Tenki]

The only "sweetspot" I'm thinking of is the beginning of the attack. I think where your opponent is might also have something to do with it, anglewise, but as far as testing goes on jumping computers, it could just be DI. 13 damage+high knockback

However, it DOES have a "late hitbox" that does 9 damage and much lesser knockback.

I don't think front or back matters at all

 

[Boxob]

It might have been Warios crazy DI but I hit my friend with a bair once and he went straight up.

 

[Tenki]

Does anyone make use of retreating F-smash?

I've been trying it on players that try to 'tip' attacks and it's surprisingly good lol.

I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but it's basically like a 'reverse' stutter step- dash back+smash forward (in-game, it looks like you start a dash dance going backwards, but after the first dash, you do a forward smash)

It sounds weird that reducing f-smash's range would be useful, but it's not the range reduction that helps as much as the dodge+counter effect.

So if that G&W goes for a SH f-air on you, you do it and BAM FACEPAWNCH!

Link trying to do D-air? MISS- FACEPAWNCH!

XD I guess it's a ... different alternative to stutter stepping.

 

[Umby]

I'm missing a category or two, but I don't recall what I meant to put.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I like DashPivotCanceling Fsmashes. Too good.

 

[PK-ow!]

The OP spends a lot of time talking about spin charge mindgames, saying Sonic's moves are indistinguishable to all but careful scrutiny.

It can't be serious. They all have clear differences that have somehow never fooled me, not from the first time I saw each move.

Dsmash is quiet and perfectly circular, with little additional animation.
side B turns Sonic into a noncircle ellipse. << EDIT: And he moves. almost forgot 'cause it's so obvious.
down B creates a blue ring around Sonic and has clearly audible charging noises taken from his games.

I can't imagine anyone who doesn't simply live in callous ignorance of bottom tier characters missing these differences.



EDIT: Oh and that technique darkNES is talking about (can you point me to the thread in which it came up), I say it looks like surfing. He's really the only character who can do this, a handful can slide but nowhere near as far... odd.

 

[Tenki]

The OP spends a lot of time talking about spin charge mindgames, saying Sonic's moves are indistinguishable to all but careful scrutiny.

It can't be serious. They all have clear differences that have somehow never fooled me, not from the first time I saw each move.

Dsmash is quiet and perfectly circular, with little additional animation.
side B turns Sonic into a noncircle ellipse. << EDIT: And he moves. almost forgot 'cause it's so obvious.
down B creates a blue ring around Sonic and has clearly audible charging noises taken from his games.

I can't imagine anyone who doesn't simply live in callous ignorance of bottom tier characters missing these differences.

mm

I made a thread a while ago to see if it changed anyone's playstyle when they play against people who are familiar with Sonic's moves and graphics. Only one person answered, I think, and basically, it was that no, nothing changed anyway. Graphical confusion is only good against people inexperienced with Sonic, but the rest, it's all about mixing up timing and actual execution of attacks (eg, dash attack, dash attack, shield cancelled side-B)

 

[Umby]

I mention the similarities, and perhaps unintentionally make an emphasis on the facts, but I'm most of what I've covered so far have dealt with special moves, which pretty much look like each other. You can't deny the fact that VSDJ looks like Homing Attack and chaining the former into the latter will work often as a mind game.

Even if I did accidentally put an emphasis on "dsmash looks like spin charge" it's not saying that you can run up and pretend like you're Spin Charging though you're dsmashing. It's simply encouragement to keep the similarities in mind.

 

[pirateguru]

Does anyone make use of retreating F-smash?

I'm definately going to start trying that. I really think this would improve my game a lot since i use the stutter step as a mind game.

 

[Browny]

It can't be serious. They all have clear differences that have somehow never fooled me, not from the first time I saw each move.

Dsmash is quiet and perfectly circular, with little additional animation.
side B turns Sonic into a noncircle ellipse. << EDIT: And he moves. almost forgot 'cause it's so obvious.
down B creates a blue ring around Sonic and has clearly audible charging noises taken from his games.

I can't imagine anyone who doesn't simply live in callous ignorance of bottom tier characters missing these differences.

youd think that wouldnt you. when i play sonic, i use A LOT of throws, i mean a good 40% of all the damage i do comes from throws. uthrow for early damage then its all dthrow from there. whenever you dthrow, the enemy only has 4 options, 3 of which result in getting hit by a vB which i begin charging the instant the throw ends or maybe a dash attack. the only way to avoid it is to roll behind sonic. once ive abused the dash/vb enough, people will always start to roll behind sonic, once they do that, one more dthrow and i charge the dsmash instead. it works so often its not funny.

against heavys, where a hit from the vb can result in up to 28% from the combo out of it, how many times do you think its worth the risk of not rolling behind sonic? they can push thier luck and wait a split second to determine whether its a dsmash or vb charging, but that only gives more time for the smash, spin charge to charge up. of course you could always threaten with more dash attacks, but instead just turn around and fsmash when they roll behind you.

its all a matter of chance. the idea isnt to trick people into rolling into the dsmash, but the fact that it can happen will change the way people act. if dedede didnt have his CG people wouldnt have to be so careful against him on the ground, same with sonic. you can force the enemy to make a mistake, almost all of which result in a free hit for sonic.

i realise some of that doesnt make too much sense, but anyway,
tldr;
think of it in a risk/reward sense. rolling away from sonic can result in a lot of damage unless you do it very quickly, even so sonic will always catch you with a dash attack wherever you end up. youve got maybe 1/10th of a second to make up your mind whether its a dsmash or vB. rolling towards him either results in a charged dsmash, or nothing. dsmash does 14-19% (i think) while vb can do up to 28.

 

[pirateguru]

This actually came from the match-up thread and it's like perfect for any players you go against that love to use short hops. It really pisses them off since they lose their style of play (well at least my cousin). If this becomes a counter to wall of pain players then this will make me very Happy.

He uses T-Link by the way

guys I think I found something funny vs Marth.

What's one of Marth's most feared approaches?

SH F-air.

What does Marth have to do to do it?

Jump.

What does Sonic have that disrupts jumps...?

Grounded Springs!

If you don't see it yet, a grounded spring can screw up Marth's (or anyone's) aerial approach lol.

You set up a spring in front of Sonic (maybe 2 character lengths away) so that Marth can't SH an F-air at you without being spring'd. Simple as that.

mindgaaames lolol

There was some more testing on it by others and it did pretty decent.
go check it out on the Match-up thread

 

[Camalange]

This thread is god. Thank you.
Does anyone else love running up to people, spin dash cancel, then grab, or just running past them and doing a quick turn around grab? It's amazing! But I can't seem to get the timing right for the stutter step in the heat of a brawl...same with my SDJ (I can rarely pull it off) Also, is it really possible to get Marth caught in ground springs? It sounds tricky...does anyone have videos of this being pulled off?

 

[Tenki]

It's not really that tricky, but it pressures them to avoid being unneccessarily bounced up into the air. Marth is one of those characters that want precise placement on hits, due to the tip bonuses, and those characters are easier to screw up with things like retreating F-smash and springs.

I think the next level would be "what to do when your opponent is caught in a spring" @_@;

Honestly, I haven't thought out those situations too much, since I'm still working on accuracy with U-air juggles and aiming spring U-airs so I at least go through the person. There are some interesting mixups and kills that you can do off the top of the stage with springs (like... D-air), but... yeah.

 

[Camalange]

It's not really that tricky, but it pressures them to avoid being unneccessarily bounced up into the air. Marth is one of those characters that want precise placement on hits, due to the tip bonuses, and those characters are easier to screw up with things like retreating F-smash and springs.

I think the next level would be "what to do when your opponent is caught in a spring" @_@;

Honestly, I haven't thought out those situations too much, since I'm still working on accuracy with U-air juggles and aiming spring U-airs so I at least go through the person. There are some interesting mixups and kills that you can do off the top of the stage with springs (like... D-air), but... yeah.

Yeah it kinda seems like if you where to plant a spring, Marth could just tag along for a ride and pursue you. But hey, I guess it could work at times if you do it right.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Well, Sonic's uair can out range almost anyone else's dair so I think that most people would definitely try to avoid your spring (thus making their attacks more predictable).

 

[Tenki]

Yeah it kinda seems like if you where to plant a spring, Marth could just tag along for a ride and pursue you. But hey, I guess it could work at times if you do it right.

OH! I don't mean using spring as a 'counter' when Marth jumps at you.

I mean planting the spring and standing near it, positioning it so that if Marth were to attempt a SH aerial attack (and depending on your position, weave out, WOP style), he'd get bounced upwards while you're on the floor. It's more like a spring 'shield', than a 'counter'.

That leaves you with a few choices (this is going towards my proposed "what to do if they spring" topic), since it IS an opponent now coming down from high above you:

- Defend against their landing attack
- Chase up with a new spring and use airdodge or aerial (depends if you expect him to use an aerial or just be confused)
- Jump up (bait an airdodge or attack) and punish

On a funny note, some people try to take control of the spring and take advantage of its auto cancel and, on their way down, use a laggy aerial (like D-air, stall-then-falls) as they reach the spring (commonly if Sonic is crouching under or near the spring). However, you can step out to the side then use spring ("moves" the spring out of their way) and D-air into them while they're in landing lag. Or you can use springvincibility frames.

 

[Camalange]

Ooooh, hahaha I get what you're saying now, haha
yeah it all seems to make a lot more sense now

 

[Boxob]

Does warlock punching through a reverse falcon punch count as a mind game?

I mean, it blew my mind. I even have it recorded.

 

[Camalange]

Does warlock punching through a reverse falcon punch count as a mind game?

I mean, it blew my mind. I even have it recorded.

I would LOVE to see that

 

[Tenki]

RAR ASC?

discuss.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

RAR ASC?

discuss.

I've started to do that do other Sonic's who run under me. It doesn't work against them all that often but it's still fun.

 

[Umby]

I would propose more testing on that. I will try it some time.

 

[Tenki]

Grab release followups?

On a silly note, Sonic can punish jump-escapes from grabs but against ground-escapes can only resort to reading and punishing the opponent's moves.

 

[ROOOOY!]

That's fun with Ness. ^^
Do a running grab once he's released. He can't escape if you do a running grab instantly, and since his running grab doesn't slide or send Sonic forward much, you can do it repeatedly to Ness across the stage, that wracks up a bit of damage.
In general unless it's against him I avoid grab releases.
Grab release or upthrow for 12%?
I know which one I'd take. If I do get a grab release I usually ftilt, I don't know what else to do ;_;

 

[Tenki]

Keep in mind that you don't just do stuff for damage, but placement. I fought a good Snake player online (Ally), and his grab release mindgames/reading/punishments rocked me.

`.`; Take advantage of that panic moment right after you release, and if they relax, then grab again.

just bringing up the situation as an option for a chance to get that Fsmash in lol.


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edit/nonrelated junk

awee look at the Sonic boards back then.

















...look at it now ;__;

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah. Ally's fun to play.

And Snake's grab release is awesome cause you can ftilt out of it.