Mindgames With Sonic

[Greenstreet]

Loved this by the way. very comprehensive.

 

[Zench]

ill keep some of this in mind when i play sonic, good job

 

[Tenki]

Throw mixups

So of course, you should all know the DI to screw up certain throws:

("Towards" Sonic is the direction the grabbed character is facing, "Away" is the direction behind the grabbed character)

U-throw: Towards/down
B-throw: Away/up
F-throw: Away
D-throw: Away/up

Now here's DI that helps certain throws kill:
U-throw: Away/up [lazy DI: Away]
B-throw: Towards/down [lazy DI: Up]
F-throw: Towards
D-throw: Towards/down [lazy DI: Up]

behold, the counter DI throw list!
U-throw: B-throw/D-throw/F-throw
B-throw: U-throw
F-throw: U-throw
D-throw: U-throw

F-throw can be used to replace U-throw if your opponent is about 20% damage higher than whatever you were trying to set up with U-throw and DI's towards you.

As you might be able to tell, you can "pin" your opponent's DI if you grab while near the edge, facing the stage. An F/U-throw may still set up for a spring>Aerial, a B-throw may kill if they're DI'ing for a U-throw, and a D-throw may make them fall towards the ground instead of high enough to airdodge.

 

[Umby]

Fuck you all for making me actually have to add on to this. ;_;

 

[Greenstreet]

your a smart bloke tenki.

 

[darkNES386]

Teh Umby... would you like me to put this in the sonic guide thread I have?

 

[Umby]

As in the link to this thread, or the whole thing word for word? If the latter, I have move into my dorms and actually start adding more to this first. The former I don't mind.

 

[darkNES386]

IF you want me to take this off your shoulders I'll put good chunks of this in the guide. I won't be able to play as regularly with school starting up for me too, but I'll have plenty of time here and there to work on editing the guide. It's really a learning process for everyone now isn't it?

 

[Umby]

Do as you wish. Just let me know what you do.

 

[MarKO X]

I have a question:

I was playing Brawl, and I was trying to dashdance. That's when I realized that Sonic can go into a full dash and turn around into a full dash instantly and extremely easily. With this, you can literally act as though you're going to run into an attack, then turn around, and turn around again, and then you can do this just to scare the **** out of your opponent. Would this qualify as a good mind game?

 

[memphischains]

I have an answer:

Depends on your opponent

 

[darkNES386]

@Teh Umby: I'll slowly integrate it into the guide.

@MarKO X: It's really simple... there's no instant turnaround from a full dash. You either let yourself come to a skid stop or you force yourself to do the turn around animation. If Sonic does a pivot-cancel... he might as well be doing a regular stop because they are virtually the same.

 

[Tenki]

@MarKO X/dNES:

Every character, it makes sonic top tier, ill find the vid for you. Something about true pivot, idk, phanna stuff, I think you can do anything out of this dash dance though, not just a grab or dash attack or usmash since it's a pivot, but only at the ends of the dashdance.

Sonic's pwns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUt7qjfh6Y

Foxtrot dance?

Sonic's foxtrot dance is pretty cool once you get the timing for it down. Basically, during the initial dash's stop animation ("grind/surf" animation), there's a point where the smoke starts to disappear and Sonic's front foot starts to slide inwards/relax- that's when you can safely input a 'pivot' or a single "forward-back" at dashdance speed to do an 'instant turnaround', fsmash, etc.

Kinda like finding the right moment to buffer inputs: if you do it too early, you'll start a 'slow run' or go straight into a normal dash, and if you do it too late, well... you'll be doing it too slowly .__.


----------------
edit: Some basic info made its way into the side-B/down-B mechanics thread earlier today/yesterday.

Okay, so have you ever had this experience where you're doing a mixup/turnaround with the roll, and then you just... run out of energy? Started a grounded SC in the wrong direction, finally turned around and then ran out again? Started an ASC to recover/bring yourself closer to the stage, but right before you jump out of it, you go into "screech stop" animation and fall to your death? Or find yourself rolling back and forth across your opponent, end right behind your opponent after the hit and successfully follow up with an aerial, wondering if you could ever pull it off ever again?

Well, at last, the mystery is solved!

TIME LIMIT: After your initial release of the charge, you will remain in ball form until you jump (SDJ, double jump, etc), or until 2 seconds has passed. Keep this in mind when trying to incorporate spindash into your chase and mixup movements. This "timer" begins counting as soon as you release your charge, regardless of if it's side-B hop, ASC, or just a grounded spin charge- your spin will last for 2 seconds after you release.

Yep!

How can you apply this?

Well first off, the long screech stop slide. It's very annoying. Basically, this happens when your SDR runs out of steam and you're moving very fast. It leaves you sliding uncontrollably for what feels like ... well, too long.

You can avoid it without having to jump.

Basically, if you have the correct timing, you can start a turnaround (press the opposite direction while you're rolling) so that the roll ends when you have little/no movement. This means you spend much less time trying to slow down (since you're already not moving) and you can follow it up with a different move much quicker and more accurately.

Imagine, SDR> (force airdodge) > grab?

Also, when you're on a flat surface, you spend 1 second in the air from a side-B hop, so you have 1 second to roll (either approaching or retreating, etc), then start a turnaround/"pivot" to do a 'quick' ground cancel of the SDR.


Just throwing it out there. I haven't really messed around with it too much in-game, so you creative people can go ahead and see what you can do with it.

Sometimes, if you mistime it and start to turn too late, you'll do a "pivot" then slide backwards in screech stop animation. It's useless IMO but it looks cool lol.

It actually kinda reminds me of...

...well... shellshifting.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dang dude, some of the stuff you come up with is just hard to grasp,but i think i get the general idea for this. this is the kind of thing that makes me happy and upsets me at the same time. sonic can do all of these amazing fun, delicate, intricate things, but 75% of everything we can do gets completely negated by MKs f-air and tornado

 

[Shining Blitz]

I don't know if anyone knows this, but Sonic's Dsmash, I discovered, can be shield-cancelled. ALL cooldown lag, as far as I can tell, is eliminated, and dodges and rolls can be preformed with limits only on the player's reflexes (shield jumps, too, if tap jump = on).

 

[infomon]

^^ is this true!? cuz that sounds freaking important!! I wish I could test but I'm out of country atm.... vid plz?

 

[Tenki]

^^ is this true!? cuz that sounds freaking important!! I wish I could test but I'm out of country atm.... vid plz?

D-smash has IASA frames at the end (which is AFTER the attack finishes), as Sonic 'hops' back to his feet. You can actually do any movement out of it as long as you know the timing.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

TENKI! I can't do the boost pivot grab well.

1. Explain the process to me
2. How good is it?
3. Steak

 

[da K.I.D.]

i want to see some practical usage of the pivot

 

[Tenki]

TENKI! I can't do the boost pivot grab well.

1. Explain the process to me
2. How good is it?
3. Steak

o_O?

Isn't that the DAC-style grab? I don't know, I never use it lol

if it is, then:
1. Run > hit down on C-stick to dash attack > immediately hit back+grab
2. Sonic's sucks.
3. yes.


The only pivot-grab-ish techs that I do (with Sonic) are B-reversal grabs and normal pivot grabs.

B-reversal grab:
1. Run > [forward B] > immediately after/while pressing B, hit [back] > shield > grab
2. Flashy, confusing, and somewhat intimidating when it connects. Makes use of Side-B's momentum stop for more accuracy.
3. With pepper.

Sliding pivot grab:
1. Run > (quickly) [back] > [grab]
2. Sonic doesn't slide too much. Other characters, like Falcon, slide quite a bit though.
3. Burnt.

"Standing" pivot grab:
1. Run > (quickly) [grab] > [back]
2. I'm pretty sure B-reversal grab is faster than this.
3. Slow-cooked.

meh. Retreating pivot grabs sorta.. suck for Sonic. His range isn't increased too drastically AFAIK (while Falcon's is). His grab speed isn't too spectacular this way either (while Ike's is like hyper). If/when I do pivot grabs with Sonic, I do them offensively, like run (force spotdodge/roll) and pivot grab>B-throw.

 

[R4ZE]

well the side-b cancel grab is for the most part better in every respect when compared to the pivot grab, mainly because of punishability and reliablity.

 

[StrongGaia]

This is really good, thanks for this. I suck at mindgames, I can never predict opponent's moves or force them into performing certain ones. Hopefully this will help ^_^