Mindgames and reads: A Public Discussion of what works vs. what doesn't

[phi1ny3]

So I noticed there's a lot of mindgames all sorts of Lucarios take advantage of, some of which aren't mentioned much. I think keeping an eye on what a player would do in a scenario and how based on their character you can create a process of elimination and thus get some real SCIENCTIFIC! damage on them. So I encourage people to post what traps or reading opportunities seem to work more often than others, and state a possible explanation as to why. I'll start off:

Uthrow, such a lovely move. If I'm against MK, most try to dair you to retaliate (not saying all will, but especially at higher percents when they think they can send you off the edge), so I basically either shield it for another shield grab, or walk away -> ftilt/fsmash. On characters that are heavy enough that their jump won't get them out of a SH aerial, those are ones I'll usually try to pivot grab after uthrow to throw off punishing options or I'll FP them (ex. D3/wolf). Despite their ability to jump after a uthrow, most don't, so I take advantage of that. Another one, breversal offstage -> bair works so often against overconfident marths/MKs.

 

[iRJi]

Its kind of sad that no one has posted in this yet. I will write something for this soon enough.

 

[Vionce]

Its kind of sad that no one has posted in this yet. I will write something for this soon enough.

I'd be happy to post if I was actually any good at mind games and such.

The only thing I've done that works is Almost full charged AS. When an opponent is recovering high, I charge and my opponent thinking i'm going to fire air dodges, after that I can punish by actually hitting him with a full charged AS.

 

[hichez50]

Lucario is notorious for rolling all of the place. Some people go as far as trying to predict it. When playing a charater with low speed on the ground roll and throw in a extra helping of utilt or dsmash.(if you want to take that risk). Up tilt is the best option here. It might even lead to juggling.

Also I think we should compile a list of the best ones. i.e ones that only have 1 or 2 options your opponet can do to escape.

 

[Rayku]

If you want to predict your opponents' roll, that's a very good option to roll with them. It gives you frame advantage because of how fast yours is. Against some characters, you can even do it on reaction and finish your roll before theirs. I've done this against Fox and Kirby quite frequently.

 

[phi1ny3]

Stauffy told me a really good one recently, instead of RARing and only doing bair, you could do uair instead, which makes for a good kill tactic.

 

[Vionce]

Stauffy told me a really good one recently, instead of RARing and only doing bair, you could do uair instead, which makes for a good kill tactic.

lol, whenever i hit with the body hitboxes of the uair, I call it the butt strike.

 

[F1ZZ]

1. Nearly Full Aura Sphere (NFAS) - An excellent mindgame, as people often forget about that Aura Sphere you were charging if your arent blinking with awesome cosmic POWAAAAAH!!! But seriously, dont ALWAYS fully charge that thing. Cut it just short from time to time and unleash it when your opponent least expects it. Excellent way to get a surprise kill.

2. Aura Sphere conditioning - This basically means, making your opponent EXPECT to get Aura Sphered, but proceed to not do so and hit them for being foolish enough to defend against nothing. Firing an Aura Sphere at a safe distance so they reflect typically puts them into the right mindset for this mindgame This mindgame works best against those with reflectors like fox, falco, wolf, etc.

3. Jab Canceling - As mentioned above. The jab canceling can make an opponent waste his shield or simply do the wrong reaction.

All credit of this goes to the Lucario+ thread since I stole it exactly from there.

 

[hichez50]

If you want to predict your opponents' roll, that's a very good option to roll with them. It gives you frame advantage because of how fast yours is. Against some characters, you can even do it on reaction and finish your roll before theirs. I've done this against Fox and Kirby quite frequently.

Does this work with most MU? I have been to refrain from doing this. Or is that the mindgame?

 

[phi1ny3]

Mindgames generally aren't supposed to be used consistently, but are that one thing that keeps you ahead of you opponent, even if they've read up on the MU. It may be as situational as "Haze walking" for a spacing maneuver (no, Lucario's should not be used for transportation lol, too slow), these things are probably not meant for beginning lucarios or ones who want to play down to the basics, as in some MUs doing these could hurt you, or you might end up just not being as efficient, but things like this can pull off some kind of utility when a good player sees fit to use it.
And Kirby, Yoshi, Bowser, among others have pretty bad rolls (actually, even marth's is weaker than the average, iirc).

 

[Vionce]

oh i got another thing that sometimes works, do a micro dair, and then when ur opponent dodges on instinct u can punish with fsmash.

 

[Rayku]

Does this work with most MU? I have been to refrain from doing this. Or is that the mindgame?

I honestly couldn't say. I'd just advise looking at frame data, and seeing whose roll is bad and good. I know Charizard's is pretty god-awful, so you could easily do it to him.

 

[RT]

Learn to bait rolls. If you roll, some opponents may also roll in response. Therefore, it's possible to start a punish move that will hit them when they come out of the roll animation, like fsmash. Example vid.

Sometimes the most basic move is the best. Don't underestimate jab's usefulness when you are being pressured.

 

[tedward2000]

Personally I love just holding the length of my aura charge out, then shielding/ shield grabbing.
It works great at times, mostly around charging near them so your baiting an aerial or some other move.

If you have already pelted them with Aura spheres, you can expect that a close range charge they will jump over to avoid getting hit and try to break your charge. Thus is when you say no.

Or... do the same but instead of shielding the attack, grab out of aura sphere. you will take the damage, however this will only add to the strength of your throw you now can use.
-t2

 

[phi1ny3]

Learn to bait rolls. If you roll, some opponents may also roll in response. Therefore, it's possible to start a punish move that will hit them when they come out of the roll animation, like fsmash. Example vid.

Sometimes the most basic move is the best. Don't underestimate jab's usefulness when you are being pressured.

I can say the same about nair, both are really good reset/pacemaking options if nothing else works.

 

[manhunter098]

Personally, one of my favorites is to have a aura sphere that is charged to a point where it is dangerous, and I like to catch my opponent when he is off guard with the charge start, a lot of the time, my opponent will shield (expecting me to fire the aura sphere), and if they do, I will wait and try to read when they are going to drop it. If they happen to not shield, I can use any OOS option since Im in the charge animation as well, so as long as Im not spaced stupidly, it makes for a tense moment and a possible hit for excellent damage.

 

[Aurasmash14]

bumping this.

 

[ArcPoint]

I never got "mindgames"

The vast majority of individual options (Fair, shield, roll, et cetera) can be punished. Some can be punished on reaction, others have to be predicted ahead of time.

Then there's things like...having a charged Aura sphere. Risk vs reward changes, and they start to account for the AS a bit more, which you predict and start grabbing more often (Or whatever you use to punish it). And then they counter that and it goes from there.

I guess that's why I hate giving situations where people "usually" do something, because they (usually) have options to counter or avoid whatever you're going to do. Like for example Jab jab -> grab/FP, a lot of people will shield most of the time (Especially the...not as good players), but good players after one or two times of getting grabbed/FP'd they'll start rolling, or spotdodging, and then I have to account for that too when I'm jabbing.

But anyway, enough blabbering. One thing I like to do is AS (Charged or not) when they're fairly high off the ground, but low enough so that if they airdodge it won't end before they hit the ground. The AS baits the airdodge, and then it's just a matter of following where they land for a free punish. Assuming you're close enough to chase them.

 

[Samuelson]

Some pretty simple ones I used to do as Lucario....

If you trying to return to the stage and a MK or Marth or whoever is juggling you then you can do the aura sphere pivot or whatever. I usually works as long as you don't do it every single time.

When I have a full charged aura sphere I like to make it look like I'm going to Bair them but then I will pivot and shoot the AS. Sometimes it will catch somebody off guard.

This is my favorite. I will usually throw out an Fsmash at the start of the game to see their reaction, if they spot dodge it then later in the game, when I need a kill, I will just slightly charge the Fsmash and it's lingering properties will catch them while they are still in the spot dodge and kill them.

This is another good one. If you're always approaching with Fair>Nair or Fair>Dair then you can switch if up by doing Fair>landing behind them and grabbing. That is just pretty basic conditioning but still something worth doing.

If I'm on a platform with somebody I like to fast fall through the platform and then jump and Nair them really quickly. If they shield it then they might get pushed off the platform and if they don't shield...well you know what happens.


There are just lots of things you can do by having a full AS charged. People tend to play differently when you do which is when you can take advantage because they will be making more mistakes. Their nerves will get to them I suppose.

 

[Zeratulfenix]

One of the simplest would be to jump towards a recovering opponent to bait an air dodge, but continue past them and bair/dair (fair chain if you RARed)

 

[solecalibur]

When is comes to high aura and there standing a stock under me , standing still a lot (especially with a fully charged aura ball) just to stand still because it just freaks them out that I can do a good % still before Im gone it sounds dangerous to do on your last stock with high aura but once you get a feel for it , its just plan evil