Miiverse Daily Smash 4 Photos (Closed for its successor)

[StupendousMike]

It seems laughable that Sakurai is posting about how Link and Donkey Kong might be overpowered when they have both been below average in all 3 Smash games. Especially link, being bottom in the bottom 3 in 64 and brawl.

That's really only by competitive standards. I didn't even know there WAS a competitive Smash scene until years after Melee came out, and during that time, I dominated my friends as Link. Overpowered to a casual player is a different thing than overpowered to a competitive player.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Perhaps her mid-air jump?

Probably that.

Jump or attack, it's most likely effects from something Samus did.

 

[IsmaR]

I hereby dub this Pyrosphere appreciation week.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Probably that.

Jump or attack, it's most likely effects from something Samus did.

Looks like an attempted bair to me

This is great! Now all they need to do is buff Falcon's knee so that it does twice the impact and we got ourselves a game.

 

[Xiivi]

Looks too powerful; Sakurai I recommend removing it and maybe throwing a few more nerfs Link's way.

 

[Tesh]

That's really only by competitive standards. I didn't even know there WAS a competitive Smash scene until years after Melee came out, and during that time, I dominated my friends as Link. Overpowered to a casual player is a different thing than overpowered to a competitive player.

Even just in casual play, Link is an underpowered heavyweight that doesn't deal well with items or stages and has a horrible recovery, especially when you consider how far off the stage alot of items and hazards can send you.

In casual play, big characters just get slapped around and become combo fodder for everyone.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Glad to see that Sakurai is at least making an honest attempt to buff some of the weaker characters.

Makes me excited to find out what other balancing changes are in store for us.

 

[Tesh]

5 weeks since a character reveal, this has got to be the longest ever right?

I'm hoping for 2 in november. Just throw out 2 obvious veterans like ness and puff c'mon.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wow, I remember talking about making Link's Dair a spike for tech chasing and mix ups.

This is dope. Thanks for listening Sakurai.

Ayo **** a character this is much more important, well, at least to me, especially for Link. He really needs this spike. Spacing this move gives him so much mix up potential. If he fast falls it the opponent will be forced to either tech in a direction or take the hit, if not fast falled he can follow the tech chase after the hit or bait out a get up attack by dropping slowly. SD Dair may be able to combo into itself at low percents or ground bounce the enemy into the second it at mid percents.

Thank goodness Sakurai is finally doing something about improving characters who need it.

 

[FalKoopa]

Link is getting a buff... Yes please.

 

[Admiral Pit]

So Link finally got something beneficial for once. Of course, I'm more worried bout his terrible recovery.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Probably that.

Jump or attack, it's most likely effects from something Samus did.

It's the effect of when a character goes flying really fast. Rings for around the fireball.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm just worried that Sakurai finds it too powerful.

-_-

 

[Seraphim.]

Now let's hope his recovery can be buffed.

 

[ChickenWing13]

So Link finally got something beneficial for once. Of course, I'm more worried bout his terrible recovery.

Agreed. I think sakurai should be more concerned on this if anything. Or who knows maybe he did fix it and we just didn't see it yet. Though from what I've seen in the trailer, it still looks like kaka.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Hopefully the Sakurai and the playtesters don't deem it too powerful.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm just worried that Sakurai finds it too powerful.

-_-

Well it's only from the start, and considering that characters like Toon Link had a down air spike with a hitbox that lingered for an eternity, I think it's only fair, especially is Sakurai is going to balance out Toon Link in compared to Link. Toon Link didn't need a spike given that he had all that mobility.

 

[Kamikazek]

That's really only by competitive standards. I didn't even know there WAS a competitive Smash scene until years after Melee came out, and during that time, I dominated my friends as Link. Overpowered to a casual player is a different thing than overpowered to a competitive player.

In my experience as a casual player(warning, casual experience may vary)- yes and no.
For me and my friends high level Link is always the most feared and hardest to deal with CPU in every single smash game, and to this day I have trouble beating him in Brawl(though he's not nearly as tough as he was in Melee).
That said, I've never seen a casual player who does at all well with Link in Brawl. I had a friend who absolutely dominates with Link in melee but could never find a way to do well with him at all in Brawl. Another friend of mine is just starting to become dangerous with Link after a long time of trying (said friend is a Gannondorf main of all things, I should mention). And in all of the several different groups of casual Smash players I've played with, Link is literally considered a joke.
Link is in an awkward position where he requires a pretty high level of skill to be used efficiently at all, so lots of casual players just see him as a punching bag that sinks like a rock, but he also lacks some traits that are important for a character to be competitively viable (like having a not horrendous recovery), so he doesn't really fit anywhere. By the time you get to the skill level where people can use him properly, he gets absolutely stomped by people playing higher tier characters.
The CPU(and maybe a few players like you for whom Link's skill set really clicks) kinda bypasses this because it's actually designed to use Link rather well as opposed to some other characters that it uses much less than optimally. Which might be where Sakurai's coming from thinking Link will be overpowered, he thinking in terms of a type of play style that most casuals can't actually pull off and that's virtually worthless in competitive play, but he doesn't realize how hard it is for casuals. I'd be really curios to see how the play testers he uses handle Link.
Or that's what I think, I don't know I'm not an expert on this. OMG wall of text.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

On another note, I feel that this information states a lot about how Sakurai is approaching the game; he really cares about the balance. The fact that he is telling us about game changes and allowing play testing as a final judgement really says a lot. It makes me feel he really cares about the competetive aspect of this game. I hope this trend contines and we get tidbits of inside knowledge about the characters in the game. It's exciting knowing that we may potentially have to learn more about our old characters. Smash 4 is the game of the vets.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm really glad to see Link getting a noticeable buff.
Lets hope he keeps it.

If there's anyone more deserving of buffs, please tell me. Because I think Link is top priority in that regard.

 

[ChickenWing13]

I'm really glad to see Link getting a noticeable buff.
Lets hope he keeps it.

If there's anyone more deserving of buffs, please tell me. Because I think Link is top priority in that regard.

*cough*Ganon*cough*

 

[StupendousMike]

On another note, I feel that this information states a lot about how Sakurai is approaching the game; he really cares about the balance. The fact that he is telling us about game changes and allowing play testing as a final judgement really says a lot. It makes me feel he really cares about the competetive aspect of this game. I hope this trend contines and we get tidbits of inside knowledge about the characters in the game. It's exciting knowing that we may potentially have to learn more about our old characters. Smash 4 is the game of the vets.

Well, it sounds like he's taking competitive play into consideration for the first time, given that I've always felt Melee was a competitive powerhouse by accident, like Street Fighter II (Fun Fact! Combos as we know them today were discovered by accident in SFII, via players exploiting a bug). Then, with Brawl, he was more about making a game as many people as possible can enjoy. Since the Wii U itself sits pretty firmly inbetween the "For Gamers vs. For Everyone" philosophies of GameCube and Wii, it only makes sense that the Wii U Smash should follow suit.

 

[-TAG-]

At this point, any buff is welcome for Link, though its surprising to know that Sakurai is unaware that Link has been sucky three games in a row now. Hopefully this changes in Smash 4.

 

[E2xD]

Don't take away such interesting buff ;~; ... unless of course you replace it with something better.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Finally Link gets a good meteor smash! I know his Down Tilt is a meteor smash but I always had a hard time spacing it. Let's just hope Sakurai keeps this buff.

 

[RODO]

Going back on yesterdays pic, I think it would be cool if anyone with a sword/something sharp could cut down Villager's tree.

On today's pic, I feel like the risk is worth the reward. Jumping off stage to do anything with Link, let alone meteor smash, could cost you your life due to poor recovery.

 

[Kamikazek]

Well, it sounds like he's taking competitive play into consideration for the first time, given that I've always felt Melee was a competitive powerhouse by accident, like Street Fighter II (Fun Fact! Combos as we know them today were discovered by accident in SFII, via players exploiting a bug). Then, with Brawl, he was more about making a game as many people as possible can enjoy. Since the Wii U itself sits pretty firmly inbetween the "For Gamers vs. For Everyone" philosophies of GameCube and Wii, it only makes sense that the Wii U Smash should follow suit.

That's a common misconception. Juggles(namely Dhalsim) were a programing accident, combos were entirely intentional. They even considered intentionally removing combos during development(basically by giving characters a few really quick invincibility frames after being hit), but decided against it because they thought it would make fights boring. SF II was very much made with skill, competition and balance in mind, although they certainly didn't entirely predict the amount of depth the game would have once players started obsessing over it. Similar with melee actually, Sakurai has said he was thinking about competitive play when he made Melee, though it wasn't his only priority and I really don't think he expected competitive smash to end up as crazy as it did.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

So once again Sakurai tweaks something and is instantly afraid of what he's done?

Why is this guy directing smash bros again?

 

[ChickenWing13]

So once again Sakurai tweaks something and is instantly afraid of what he's done?

Why is this guy directing smash bros again?

He wants to please everyone. Its like a game of Tug-a-War and he is in the middle. It also seems like he is afraid to take risks.

 

[Psymon]

If Link's D-air now spikes (or acts as a Meteor Smash), I think we're done here...

 

[MSmariosonic]

If Link's D-air now spikes (or acts as a Meteor Smash), I think we're done here...

Exactly....though I really hope his jab from melee returns.

 

[Psymon]

Hopefully the Sakurai and the playtesters don't deem it too powerful.

Well, if Link plays lkke he did in Brawl, he'd be losing a high-damage "outfield" kill-move to make way for a spike/meteor smash. I know a lot of people would still consider this to be more useful, but his D-air was able to kill with ease when an opponent was around 100% in Brawl, no matter where they were on the stage. A meteor smash on the other hand would only be a valid kill move in the really-high percentages, or when an opponent is off the stage. Sakurai might consider this a fair trade in the end.

 

[ChickenWing13]

If Link's D-air now spikes (or acts as a Meteor Smash), I think we're done here...

Not exactly. Toon Link's dair wasn't in issue in brawl. Also it hasn't been said how long the land lag will be on his dair if it misses and hits the ground - setting up for a big punish.

 

[Kamikazek]

Well, if Link plays lkke he did in Brawl, he'd be losing a high-damage "outfield" kill-move to make way for a spike/meteor smash. I know a lot of people would still consider this to be more useful, but his D-air was able to kill with ease when an opponent was around 100% in Brawl, no matter where they were on the stage. A meteor smash on the other hand would only be a valid kill move in the really-high percentages, or when an opponent is off the stage. Sakurai might consider this a fair trade in the end.

It sounds like you need to sweetspot it for it to be a meteor smash though. Otherwise it probably just functions like normal.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Not exactly. Toon Link's dair wasn't in issue in brawl. Also it hasn't been said how long the land lag will be on his dair if it misses and hits the ground - setting up for a big punish.

Isn't there a lot of landing lag with most meteor smashes?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I kinda feel like everyone talking about how bad Link is in previous smash games isn't envisioning how development goes and how dynamic balance can be in that environment. Link being bad in the previous three games (though he's really not THAT bad in Melee) is just irrelevant to the question of whether he could be overpowered in smash 4; it's easy in development to make any character brokenly good or uselessly bad, and final balance is just your best attempt to make it all work together to avoid both those extremes. Among other things, we don't know how else he's been tweaked, and we don't really know just how powerful this change is.

By my intuition, it doesn't seem very strong. Link using dair off-stage is a desperation move at best (landing it and coming out ahead would require the hardest of hard reads), and by the description, it only works as a meteor right at the tip right at the instant it hits which makes it quite tricky to use as a juggle escape too. I can see some possible strong utility in a more offensive situation like while doing some grounded pressure; meteors against grounded opponents have always been super advantageous openers, and Link probably has the tools to cover it if he played it smart though I'm not sure what kind of follow ups he might have especially with how committed it tends to be (just hitting twice with the dair would be fairly underwhelming I feel though certainly better than nothing). It's really hard to say just how viable that whole idea is or whether there's some other way it could be good that I'm not thinking of, and of course, you have to think across match-ups (like it's probably not a big deal off-stage in most match-ups, but maybe it helps Link a ton against a few characters with easy to intercept recoveries). Sakurai saying it is subject to playtesting is good since it's entirely possible it is too good for reasons that haven't been seen internally yet but may be later, and it would be a shame for him to commit to it being in the game now only for it to prove to be a bad idea. Of course, him showing it is a sign that, while he's not 100% sure on it being a good idea, he's reasonably confident since it's nothing but bad for him to get people excited for something they'll never get to use.

This was a great picture either way; honestly seeing this kind of clever idea for balance changes to old characters excites me more than any other kind of picture. There's a lot to think about here, and I'll probably be thinking for days of random situations in Brawl in which this sort of thing might have changed how things played out. I could go until release happily without any more new character or stage reveals if every picture were like this; here's hoping that the last two this week continue this strong trend.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Isn't there a lot of landing lag with most meteor smashes?

I don't remember tbh. I know Luigi, Ganon, and Falco didn't have lag in brawl due to auto cancelling. The point that im trying to make though is that Link's dair can be easily punished. That is all.

 

[Mypantisgone]

That slash effect next to Samus is nothing new,it's not from Link,it's an effect that follows anyone sent flying.

Spoiler

 

[MSmariosonic]

I don't remember tbh. I know Luigi, Ganon, and Falco didn't have lag in brawl due to auto cancelling. The point that im trying to make though is that Link's dair can be easily punished. That is all.

Well...I remember that DK and Snake had alot of landing lag too.

 

[-TAG-]

Well Link overall has SOME good traits such as being a heavyweight, having a slew of projectiles at his disposal and having one of the best momentum cancelling abilities in Brawl, its just that Link's flaws outweigh his pros. One of his most notable problems being his lackluster recovery and most of his attacks starting up pretty slow. Overall there are a lot of things that need buffing up in Link's moveset, I would start off with making his Spin Attack launch you up higher, that move could barely reach the ledge and it always felt extremely risky chasing opponents offstage because of that.