Meta Mii Swordfighter Competitive Discussion and Q&A Thread

[LRodC]

I'm glad you're enjoying playing the character.

Your current set is good enough. Though, I'd advise you to mess around with the height and width. Try to find something that better fits you. Mine is currently small/small. So it's quite fast and agile. Weight increases damage at roughly 2x the rate of height.
Height decreased landing and ending lag by only a few frames (may be % based/more noticeable on slower attacks) at 0/0.

I'll mess with it and see how smaller ones are. The only thing I'm worried about is KO power being lowered since damage is lowered on smaller Miis.

 

[Trieste SP]

I'll mess with it and see how smaller ones are. The only thing I'm worried about is KO power being lowered since damage is lowered on smaller Miis.

I see. Have fun experimenting with it.

 

[Antonykun]

I'll mess with it and see how smaller ones are. The only thing I'm worried about is KO power being lowered since damage is lowered on smaller Miis.

don't worry about KO power too much as it is barely lowered on smaller Miis

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Can Mii Sword Fighter Jab cancel his jab like Link could previously? I tried it on a cpu and it seemed to work.

 

[Antonykun]

Can Mii Sword Fighter Jab cancel his jab like Link could previously? I tried it on a cpu and it seemed to work.

that's the core of his neutral game

 

[SAX]

Wait... Why are people messing with heights? Aren't the only legal Mii's 50/50 in height and weight? I understand that for custom tournaments weight and height can be affected as well as the special moves, but for standard tournaments, 50/50 is the ony thing allowed, correct?

I ask this because starting tomorrow I am maining Mii Sword Fighter because of Lloyd Irving.

 

[AEMehr]

Wait... Why are people messing with heights? Aren't the only legal Mii's 50/50 in height and weight? I understand that for custom tournaments weight and height can be affected as well as the special moves, but for standard tournaments, 50/50 is the ony thing allowed, correct?

I ask this because starting tomorrow I am maining Mii Sword Fighter because of Lloyd Irving.

Each Mii is arguably a lot better when smaller.

EVO's Mii rulesets had the Swordfighter and Gunner at 25/0 and Brawler at 0/0 or 50/50.

 

[SAX]

Each Mii is arguably a lot better when smaller.

EVO's Mii rulesets had the Swordfighter and Gunner at 25/0 and Brawler at 0/0 or 50/50.

But EVO was custom ruleset. What about normal tournament ruleset?

 

[SAX]

I found what my first video is about. I have zero idea how I missed this for so long, but I found a beastly ledgeguarding option, his standard side b.

Now if the opponent doesn't have to cry in fear of your Bair and Dair (and maybe standard up b's spike) you just gave them even MORE reason to sit and be VERY afraid off stage.

With proper timing if you side b near the ledge, instead of sweet spotting the ledge you'll spin a whole bunch of times THEN grab the ledge, staying in the same place in the air. This means you're leaving out a VERY long lasting hitbox that can send people behind and away from you off stage, which can set up into Bair and Dair while GIVING YOU YOUR JUMP BACK IF IT HITS!

Now if this wasn't nice enough, there are several different timings on this. One will just put out the hitbox for a tiny bit and then sweetspot the ledge, one will hover near the ledge before popping you back onto the stage, and the last will put you significantly under the ledge before sticky hands bring you back to grab. Did I mention it can still register to hit both below AND above the stage for all of these versions?

Basically a simple TLDR, you can cover every single option at the ledge while putting out a strong killing hitbbox that can also combo into death moves at low percents. Even f the opponent is at low percents so long as you get them offstage you can set up a mind game and trap with this, if they recover high they're punished, if they recover low to try and avoid it you just hold a tiny bit longer and get they hit in. It's SUCH an amazing tool that abuses how the ledges work in this game (1 frame is available before people grab the ledge, and this keeps the hitbox out so there's no way to miss the window) and I feel like an absolute moron for missing it this long. It also seems to beat out a lot of the recovery moves I've tested thus far, even those with hitboxes so you can use it to eat them out as well.

Able to basically make it so once you are offstage you are doomed, Mii Swordfighter. ADVANCING THE META!!!

Could someone post a video of this being done? I hit an opponent with the side b and I don't get my jump back. Having a hard time seeing played out.

 

[Antonykun]

But EVO was custom ruleset. What about normal tournament ruleset?

in "normal" aka customs off Miis are either banned or forced to go APEX ruleset with a few TOS allowing size modifications

 

[ZarroTsu]

But EVO was custom ruleset. What about normal tournament ruleset?

To be frank, there's no standard rules for it at all. They just pick one of the default Miis, which isn't even 50/50; probably more along the lines of 51/48 or something. I don't know exactly.

It's entirely up to the TO whether or not they make the Miis players want, or the Miis OTHER (non-mii) players want. At the moment, however, I don't think its been conveyed at all!

 

[DanGR]

Short hop-> falling chakram (slow) in order to cover up the ledge- not above, but exactly where you'd grab it. Anyone know of an easy way to do this? The timing is so strict.

 

[Routa]

What you guys think about TT (Thin and Tall) Mii Swordfighter? I personally prefer TT over MM or SS due to superior range in almost every move. Ofc it isn't as fast, but better range is nice for Fair and Hero Spin.

 

[Antonykun]

What you guys think about TT (Thin and Tall) Mii Swordfighter? I personally prefer TT over MM or SS due to superior range in almost every move. Ofc it isn't as fast, but better range is nice for Fair and Hero Spin.

I used to Like Tall/Thin Swordfighter but tbh Defualt Swordfighter has enough range to still zone and has a better punish game due to the better endlag

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

Any tips on finding consistent matches online to practice miis? Are there any long running tournaments that always have people on?

I'm active in my local scene, and have a bunch of people on friends, but its pretty hit or miss some days.

 

[Antonykun]

Any tips on finding consistent matches online to practice miis? Are there any long running tournaments that always have people on?

I'm active in my local scene, and have a bunch of people on friends, but its pretty hit or miss some days.

IDK about Smash ladder's policy on Miis

 

[GS3K]

IDK about Smash ladder's policy on Miis

miis are stuck in 1111 according to the website

 

[Antonykun]

miis are stuck in 1111 according to the website

That's gross well we know who should be the first target of @ P Pegasus Knight 's project

 

[ZarroTsu]

miis are stuck in 1111 according to the website

Okay hypothetical realtalk.

How many people there actually know which moves the 1111 set is...?

 

[Routa]

Okay hypothetical realtalk.

How many people there actually know which moves the 1111 set is...?

0, if we do not count Swordfighter mains.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Just want to reiterate the lovely hole 1111 is digging:

(a) Nobody wants to play Miis because 1111 broadly sucks (and defeats the purpose of playing Miis at all).

(b) Since nobody plays Miis, nobody knows what 1111 actually is, for any of them.

(c) Also since nobody plays Miis, nobody will ever actually memorize (nor could they) what size is which. This cannot be regulated.

(d) What's to really stop someone from playing whichever Mii they want on a website like Anthers?

Alternate question:

Why couldn't Anthers just add little Mii-specific numeric bullets to tell your opponent what set you're running, to forego whatever possible reasons there are against them?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

You're probably underestimating the average player's capacity for memorization. Notice how easily they pick up on combos? They watch a top player do a great combo, copy that, and assume this will get them free wins.

Which it does, up until they run into someone with decent fighting game fundamentals.

As far as Anther's Ladder goes, I've been trying to contact them! I just have no idea how you get in touch with the ladder staff. Does anyone know? If so, I'll be glad to get in touch with them.

EDIT: What I was getting at with my first point int his post is that they can probably memorize what's 1111 and call you on it, with replay evidence, and get you penalized for an 'illegal Mii Fighter'. I would not especially advise trying the "use whatever Mii movelist you want anyway, it's not like they know the difference", someone will catch you.

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

Maybe pushing for all move miis with TOs is the wrong approach. What about pushing for miis in for glory? Has there been an official response from Nintendo on why they aren't available? I'm assuming they just don't want a bunch of Hitlers running around or something?

With miis excluded from for glory, I think public perception will remain that they aren't meant to be apart of the competitive roster. Until that changes, it will be a big uphill battle.

I'd think with all the purchasable DLC, Nintendo would be more accommodating to mii players.

 

[GS3K]

I don't think the main issue on miis is that they aren't allowed in for glory, but more that they can use all of their specials options with customs toggled off and people think this is unfair/don't want to learn the MU. Miis are part of the roster, so they should be allowed in competitive events. Only reason they're not allowed in for glory is the whole "offensive miis" schtick.

This link was posted in the "Should miis be allowed to use customs in customs off events" thread in the main competitve discussion section

http://smash4u.net/the-public-opinion-on-miis-in-smash-4/

In a nutshell - In a poll out of 3000+ votes, 73% of the votes were for "miis should be legal with any moves, but a system default mii", so there is a backing for them to be used in tourneys with their other moves.

The push for miis to be used unrestricted stems from them being able to use all of their moves with customs off. Because they are exempt to the customs off toggle, a 1111, guest miis only rule is enforced to keep them from accessing their 2 and 3 specials and using an altered sized mii in an attempt to "standardize" them. However, there isn't a "standard" mii because miis don't exist on the CSS until you create them. Unlike the other characters who are balanced and designed around their 1111 sets primarily, the miis were designed and balanced around all of their moves in mind and not (specifically) 1111.

The people opposing unrestricted miis don't care and want them restricted due to some sense of "fairness" that must be upheld or people don't want to take time to learn how to fight them.

IMO, the only issue with miis should be the time they take to set up, but that can be dealt with easily.

 

[GeneralLedge]

IMO, the only issue with miis should be the time they take to set up, but that can be dealt with easily.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

The best part is you can trim a few seconds off that time; the person doing the video did make a few mistakes.

QR Codes can help with making different sizes available, and 3DS transfers could help out with all of this too. The logistical concerns are really quite small at this point.

 

[AEMehr]

It's also literally just as fast to transfer a Mii Fighter from the 3DS. :U

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

As much as I'd love to see all moves available for miis in noncustom tournaments, I just don't think it will happen on a large scale.

I'd be content with having guest miis with 1111, 2222, 3333 for each mii fighter. There would be no reason these couldn't be available in For Glory also.

The way I figure it, that's 9 more characters available in For Glory, and 6 more characters in tournaments. Seems like a good compromise.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

I think the main solution to if particular customs of the Mii are allowed or not, is letting the TO's know which configurations are the best. Reading this reminded me that I never posted any movesets for Mii Swordfighter in my Mii Swordfighter guide. I'll change that now.
I can already tell you that the best configurations IMO are: 1331, 2322 and 1312. The first is my personal favourite. It allows for tight, agressive close combat fighting that still has the spacing tools needed against a faster opponent. The second is the opposite, it focuses on defence and long-range fighting. It is also closest to the standard moveset 2222, but the chakram is too important since patch 1.10, so 2222 isn't quite optimal. The third allows for the best edgeguarding and offstage gimping as possible, though it risks being edgeguarded itself.
If you have anything to add, please do so.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I have one thing to add: Good luck getting people to agree on a best set, or even a few best sets. Most of Swordfighter's specials are legitimately useful, to the point where he's the most varied character of the three in terms of viable builds; the only one I will outright dismiss as awful is Up-B 1 and even it has SOME value in letting him come back after going very low with d-air edgeguards

Balance patches also regularly affect the Mii moves. It used to be people would say 'Grenade master race' for Gunner. Now they're starting to migrate to Charge Shot.

Brawler is one of the few where you can indeed narrow it down. Neutral B should almost always be Uppercut. Down-B needs to be Feint Jump, period. Side B is usually Onslaught (there are a few Burning Dropkick supporters), Up B is usually Helicopter Kick (though I prefer Piston Punch). You really can narrow him down to about 4 builds.

Gunner and Swordfighter, not so much. They have lots of viable options.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

I have one thing to add: Good luck getting people to agree on a best set, or even a few best sets. Most of Swordfighter's specials are legitimately useful, to the point where he's the most varied character of the three in terms of viable builds; the only one I will outright dismiss as awful is Up-B 1 and even it has SOME value in letting him come back after going very low with d-air edgeguards

Balance patches also regularly affect the Mii moves. It used to be people would say 'Grenade master race' for Gunner. Now they're starting to migrate to Charge Shot.

Brawler is one of the few where you can indeed narrow it down. Neutral B should almost always be Uppercut. Down-B needs to be Feint Jump, period. Side B is usually Onslaught (there are a few Burning Dropkick supporters), Up B is usually Helicopter Kick (though I prefer Piston Punch). You really can narrow him down to about 4 builds.

Gunner and Swordfighter, not so much. They have lots of viable options.

Thanks for the good luck, as establishing the best sets was exactly as I was planning to do.
I'm not going to look for a single best set, as I know that various sets allow for different playstyles, but what I also know is that certain tactics fare well against various characters. One aspect of mastering a character is knowing all the matchups, knowing what the other character dislikes a lot. You can essentially build sets to 'counter' certain characters. I think that people will agree to the fact that when the matchup is set, there is one set that is the most optimal against that character.
The amount of movesets that you can make are 3x3x3x3 = 81 possible sets. Of course making all of them is absurd, but moves such as Blade Flurry, Back to the Stone, Airborne Assault and Surging Slash aren't particularly good moves. They carry some unique niches, but overall aren't the best. Taking those out of the picture, there remain 2x1x2x2 = 8 sets. Now that's narrowing it down. So far I have tested three sets to fit the extreme of particular playstyles and added them to the guide. Two of them are of the 8 I calculated. The third uses some of the niches in Blade Flurry and Back to the Stone, but that is taking the extreme, as I said. They can be easily replaced to fit that same playstyle, though the tactics differ. Please, read the guide for more details if you wish.

 

[Heropon Riki]

What are your thoughts on Power Thrust? I find it to be a very good move to compliment Swordfighter's projectile-based gameplay (with Chakram and either Gale or SoL). It punishes rolls, starts combos at low %, has kill potential, and can function as a ledge get-up (short hop out of Ledge and use PT).

 

[Antonykun]

What are your thoughts on Power Thrust? I find it to be a very good move to compliment Swordfighter's projectile-based gameplay (with Chakram and either Gale or SoL). It punishes rolls, starts combos at low %, has kill potential, and can function as a ledge get-up (short hop out of Ledge and use PT).

Power thrust is my overall favorite of Swordfighter's Down-b's for all those reasons plus the ability to edgeguard

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Power thrust is my overall favorite of Swordfighter's Down-b's for all those reasons plus the ability to edgeguard

Don't you think the move is a bit redundant? I believe so. If you want to punish rolls, there are better options to do so, assuming in order to punish a roll you read that roll and it's no happy accident. You could grab, tilt, Dair or grounded Hero's Spin, perhaps even smash. It doesn't move at such a speed that an opponent doesn't see it coming, in fact, it's quite easy to punish. Thus, I think, it's not that great of an approaching tool as Dash Attack does just as good of a job. DA even has the same combo starter potential.
As for edgeguards, Dair does just as good of a job and projectiles such as Tornado or Chakram as way safer options.
The edgeguard on Power Thrust only works if your opponent doesn't have a good recovery, whereas Dair would KO them.

Then the only thing you're missing out on is that Power Thrust can KO at very high percents while DA can't. To me, that's literally the only thing it can do what other similar moves can't. Seeing that I'd be giving up Reversal Slash or Blade Counter for this, It's just, ugh. No thanks, the redundancy is too great. Perhaps if it got a Meteor effect like on Ganondorfs down-b, I'd take it.

If I am, in fact and not opinion, wrong on these things, feel free to tell me of that mistake. Maybe I haven't tested the move enough.

 

[san.]

I use power thrust for recovery. Seems like dash attack and slash launcher are more useful onstage, although power thrust is better near the edge.

 

[Antonykun]

Don't you think the move is a bit redundant? I believe so. If you want to punish rolls, there are better options to do so, assuming in order to punish a roll you read that roll and it's no happy accident. You could grab, tilt, Dair or grounded Hero's Spin, perhaps even smash. It doesn't move at such a speed that an opponent doesn't see it coming, in fact, it's quite easy to punish. Thus, I think, it's not that great of an approaching tool as Dash Attack does just as good of a job. DA even has the same combo starter potential.
As for edgeguards, Dair does just as good of a job and projectiles such as Tornado or Chakram as way safer options.
The edgeguard on Power Thrust only works if your opponent doesn't have a good recovery, whereas Dair would KO them.

Then the only thing you're missing out on is that Power Thrust can KO at very high percents while DA can't. To me, that's literally the only thing it can do what other similar moves can't. Seeing that I'd be giving up Reversal Slash or Blade Counter for this, It's just, ugh. No thanks, the redundancy is too great. Perhaps if it got a Meteor effect like on Ganondorfs down-b, I'd take it.

If I am, in fact and not opinion, wrong on these things, feel free to tell me of that mistake. Maybe I haven't tested the move enough.

I personally found myself more comfortable with using Power Thrust over Dash Attack but i agree that PT is pretty redundant. I'm personally more of a personal dislike of the other two Down-B's outside of certain MUs. I honestly rather take a beefed up Dash Attack over Counter's well counterness and Reversal Slash's surprisingly tiny hitbox

 

[Masonomace]

Okay, I have questions that can lead to some competitive discussion. First, the questions:

1. When Mii Fighter players mention the following phrases, "25/0" and, "75/50 ", does that mean they took their size slider to 0 and tapped the tall button 25 times forward or took their size slider to the max and tapped the skinny button 25 times backward calling that 75? (I realllllly hope that's correct because I just put so much effort into this assumption.)
2. Did anyone already know that Mii Swordsman crouching down but angling the joystick diagonally towards the direction you face inputting Ftilt causes him to scoot backward after another move is inputted? Dtilt for example (Lol I'm guessing that I'm super late because for once I'm exploring this character more. I adore the character's play-style but I put a heavy amount of time into my Primary, Shulk.)
3. Was anyone aware that only the 0/0 and 0/25 Mii Swordsman sets allow you to cancel the landing hitbox thus bypassing the move's endlag with a Special move out of a Full Hop Dair? (Like the Ftilt question above, I also just messed around and eventually learned about this wondering if this is known or not.)

A. I'm asking this because I'm doing some jump height rankings stuff and I'm taking the time to lab this all out. Different sets have shown me that moves like Stone Scabbard actually travel vertically higher with a 100/100 compared to a 0/0.

B. This neat little Ftilt quirk helps out Dtilt spacing since Dtilt does reach farther while also having very low endlag, or whatever attack or movement option you wanted to do after the Ftilt.

C. Since I enjoy Mii Swordsman's Dair, learning about this reminds me of how I use Shulk in that I can also quickly input Full Hop Dair and interrupt my Dair's endlag with Back Slash, Air Slash, or Vision. Needless to say, Mii Swordsman's Full Hop Dair canceled into any special sounds neat since Hero's Spin looks clean after this. Tall characters can be hit as you're rising with the move too.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Okay, I have questions that can lead to some competitive discussion. First, the questions:

1. When Mii Fighter players mention the following phrases, "25/0" and, "75/50 ", does that mean they took their size slider to 0 and tapped the tall button 25 times forward or took their size slider to the max and tapped the skinny button 25 times backward calling that 75? (I realllllly hope that's correct because I just put so much effort into this assumption.)
2. Did anyone already know that Mii Swordsman crouching down but angling the joystick diagonally towards the direction you face inputting Ftilt causes him to scoot backward after another move is inputted? Dtilt for example (Lol I'm guessing that I'm super late because for once I'm exploring this character more. I adore the character's play-style but I put a heavy amount of time into my Primary, Shulk.)
3. Was anyone aware that only the 0/0 and 0/25 Mii Swordsman sets allow you to cancel the landing hitbox thus bypassing the move's endlag with a Special move out of a Full Hop Dair? (Like the Ftilt question above, I also just messed around and eventually learned about this wondering if this is known or not.)

A. I'm asking this because I'm doing some jump height rankings stuff and I'm taking the time to lab this all out. Different sets have shown me that moves like Stone Scabbard actually travel vertically higher with a 100/100 compared to a 0/0.

B. This neat little Ftilt quirk helps out Dtilt spacing since Dtilt does reach farther while also having very low endlag, or whatever attack or movement option you wanted to do after the Ftilt.

C. Since I enjoy Mii Swordsman's Dair, learning about this reminds me of how I use Shulk in that I can also quickly input Full Hop Dair and interrupt my Dair's endlag with Back Slash, Air Slash, or Vision. Needless to say, Mii Swordsman's Full Hop Dair canceled into any special sounds neat since Hero's Spin looks clean after this. Tall characters can be hit as you're rising with the move too.

I can't answer all your questions, but I think I can explain some.
1: A phrase such as 25/0 for a mii means that the mii has 25% of the bar in height and 0% in weight. The order is that way because the height bar is the top most bar in the mii creation menu. Different height and weight affect the Mii in specific ways. I'll link to a mii Brawler guide that explains what does what in terms of height and weight:
http://smashboards.com/guides/super-smash-bros-brawl-er-a-mii-brawler-guide-and-analysis.160/

As you can see there, the mii being tallest is most likely the cause for a 100/100 mii having more reach on moves like Stone Scabbard, as tall mii's have more range on moves.

2: I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I think you mean that you hold the control stick diagonally forward and pressing attack and then holding the control stick down and attack for a D-tilt will cause Mii to slide backwards, right?
Personally I haven't tried that so I can't confirm it right now. If you're right, then it's nice to know.

3: I did know that was the case, since thinnest mii's have more speed, they alone can cancel Dair into UpB.

 

[Masonomace]

1: A phrase such as 25/0 for a mii means that the mii has 25% of the bar in height and 0% in weight. The order is that way because the height bar is the top most bar in the mii creation menu.

I appreciate your help but this caused a bit more confusion.

A bar at 0%, 50%, or 100% is visibly clear, but to get to the very center of the bar that Mii Maker starts you off at, you'd have to tap the size slider 64 times from 0% or 63 times from 100%. The maximim height or weight requires 127 taps from 0%, so the 127 would be 100%. So when you say 25% of the bar, I suppose that means that it's 31.75 taps aka 31 taps (or 32 taps. The difference is minimal), which makes 75% actually 95.25 taps aka 95 taps, I think. .?

Saying percents made that easier. Thanks to the max. Personally for cleanliness I'd prefer Mii Maker's max be 128 instead.

2: I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I think you mean that you hold the control stick diagonally forward and pressing attack and then holding the control stick down and attack for a D-tilt will cause Mii to slide backwards, right?
Personally I haven't tried that so I can't confirm it right now. If you're right, then it's nice to know.

Apologies on my part, but yes that's what I meant. You don't even need to hold directly down to perform the backwards scoot. Just holding diagonally down and keeping your joystick there after Ftilt finishes makes Mii Swordsman crouch and then scoots back.

Another neat thing is that quickly inputting the crouched diagonal Ftit repeatedly makes Mii Swordsman move slightly forward, so this way, a quick Jab1 after a Ftilt will reach just a bit farther than it normally would.

3: I did know that was the case, since thinnest mii's have more speed, they alone can cancel Dair into UpB.

Indeed. This has made me changed my usual set to now 0/25 to experiment with more mixups I'll give a try.

 

[Masonomace]

Bump because honestly, I didn't know where to type this. So when I did some Jump Height Rankings for Swordfighter, I learned that just the Height slider greatly affects his vertical recovery on Stone Scabbard grounded & airborne, but not for Hero's Spin & Skyward Slash Dash (I'm sorry if this has been discussed multiple times or was mentioned heavily). Players that like Taller Mii Swordfighter but don't care much for the weight can enjoy SS more.

Personally for me, I've been rolling more SSD lately just because I realize that a recent patch buffed the vertical height SSD recovers, & it's amaaaazing. D-air gimping for low recoveries & recovering back with SSD is so good that I prefer this over Hero's Spin since the height & weight don't matter with the recovery aspect of the two. SSD is basically a combination of Falco's Fire Bird multi-hit property with less startup traveling about the distance of Fox's Fire Fox, & I enjoy that. Despite that I sacrifice the strong OoS kill option that the grounded HS offers, SSD is for me regardless of what H/W set I use.

Question: Who else uses SSD & is fond of it & what instances do you use the move? I'm interested in other's ideas & strategies.