Meteor Canceling In Brawl+ that actually works.

[Dantarion]

Your statement applies to DI, Teching, hell, ANY SYSTEM IN ANY GAME THAT GIVES YOU A CHANCE TO COMEBACK after making a mistake is apparently bad according to your logic.

Almost every fighting game gives the person losing some chance to come back. SF4 has the revenge meter for the ultra. T6 has you do more damage the less amount of health you have.

I don't want Brawl+ to end up like MVC2, where once you get a hit or so in, your opponent can't get out unless you mess up. I know Brawl+ isn't like that, but coming from vBrawl, any action you can take from inside hitstun adds another element to play that normally wouldn't exist.

 

[Megaman X]

Not entirely. The mechanics you list apply to a vast majority of moves when they land and across a very large spectrum of the game that are used all over the place. Nobody intends to get a bank-shot KO by planning it out. Nobody goes "oh man I hope he doesn't DI because this would kill him otherwise". MC is a mechanic that only applies in very specific situations where the opponent goes out on a limb and risks it all to kill you. Being off the stage should not grant the kind of benefit we're talking about here. With MC in play, alot of situations would just have you better off playing safe and edgehogging, because the 20% or what have you risk that the opponent is going to get out of a well thought out and executed spike FOR FREE, ON HIT is not worth the risk. You take extreme risks for proportional reward. This is the ultimate risk for the ultimate reward. Making it any less viable when you actually perform it correctly is just silly.

 

[Sterowent]

Not entirely. The mechanics you list apply to a vast majority of moves when they land and across a very large spectrum of the game that are used all over the place. Nobody intends to get a bank-shot KO by planning it out. Nobody goes "oh man I hope he doesn't DI because this would kill him otherwise".

woah, now. there's a thing circulated called 'conditioning'. this is when one player, by force of making another player repeatedly becoming trained to react a certain way (sometimes in DI), set themselves up for a combo or gimp or etc. that they wouldn't normally be effected by. you'll usually see the effectiveness of this in techchases.

MC is a mechanic that only applies in very specific situations where the opponent goes out on a limb and risks it all to kill you. Being off the stage should not grant the kind of benefit we're talking about here.

alright, now you say in one sentence that it's a risk to jump offstage to get a gimp or spike, but in the next sentence you say someone offstage shouldn't be getting some benefits, implying it's a disadvantageous position. now, what i'm saying here is that it Is a disadvantageous position usually unable to take any offensive action. going 'on a limb' to take your opponent out only applies towards characters that can take offensive action offstage in this position. these characters that bring a risk to edgeguarding really wouldn't be getting nearly as much a benefit from MC as characters only able to go on the defensive.

With MC in play, alot of situations would just have you better off playing safe and edgehogging, because the 20% or what have you risk that the opponent is going to get out of a well thought out and executed spike FOR FREE, ON HIT is not worth the risk. You take extreme risks for proportional reward. This is the ultimate risk for the ultimate reward. Making it any less viable when you actually perform it correctly is just silly.

i've already explained how the bold part doesn't apply a bit earlier. it's not the ultimate risk to go offstage if your opponent can only defend themselves. if that's all they can do, then it's up to the skill of the edgeguarder to avoid their meager options and either get the gimp or assess that it's not the right opportunity for that gimp.

 

[Kitamerby]

Oh god, if Brawl+ goes back to that horrid ****fest of a meteor canceling system that was in Melee, I'd swear off it forever.


For Heaven's sake, when I can SUCCESSFULLY use Mario's Fair which takes a year and a half to come out against a Jigglypuff at like 100%, then have it be canceled and then end up with ME getting gimped for successfully landing my 100-year-startup laggy short-ranged meteor that has to be outlined in the player's guide because it's supposedly important, something is horribly, horribly wrong.

**** the Melee meteor canceling system. Brawl's meteor canceling is perfect, even if meteors can be combo'd into.

As stated, Ness's dair is the exception, not the rule. :\

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I have not found any problems with the MC system. I'd argue keep it. Do something worthwhile instead, like give ganon snake's weight class. :V

 

[Megaman X]

woah, now. there's a thing circulated called 'conditioning'. this is when one player, by force of making another player repeatedly becoming trained to react a certain way (sometimes in DI), set themselves up for a combo or gimp or etc. that they wouldn't normally be effected by. you'll usually see the effectiveness of this in techchases.

I don't see how this applies at all, unless you're suggesting that in order to get the intended effect from the spike we should have to condition our opponents to react to it incorrectly?

alright, now you say in one sentence that it's a risk to jump offstage to get a gimp or spike, but in the next sentence you say someone offstage shouldn't be getting some benefits, implying it's a disadvantageous position. now, what i'm saying here is that it Is a disadvantageous position usually unable to take any offensive action. going 'on a limb' to take your opponent out only applies towards characters that can take offensive action offstage in this position. these characters that bring a risk to edgeguarding really wouldn't be getting nearly as much a benefit from MC as characters only able to go on the defensive.

I'm surprised you interpreted it that way. What I meant to be understood by that sentence is the person recovering from being knocked offstage should not get the benefit of being able to MC specifically because they got knocked offstage and got hit by a move. The risk of being airdodged and then ledgehogged is still present regardless of which character is recovering. Also, not every character needs the same advantages and disadvantages in every situation for a balanced game. I made a pretty substantial argument on this topic earlier in the thread.

i've already explained how the bold part doesn't apply a bit earlier. it's not the ultimate risk to go offstage if your opponent can only defend themselves. if that's all they can do, then it's up to the skill of the edgeguarder to avoid their meager options and either get the gimp or assess that it's not the right opportunity for that gimp.

All characters can attack, airdodge, and grab ledges. In many situations that's all that is needed to kill an attempted spike. Even if all the opponent can do is defend and have it somehow not affect the chance of the attacker dying, using the MC window to change this doesn't actually help the issue. The issue you brought up, which isn't even a problem, is that in some cases spike attempts are not risky enough. Changing the MC window in this case only makes spikes less rewarding, not more risky, which does not resolve the issue you present.

 

[colored blind]

...People tried to use meteors to kill in Melee? News to me. I thought they didn't because of the meteor canceling system. The only spikes worth using were the ones that weren't meteors.

 

[Sterowent]

i'm merely arguing that the extent of which meteors and spikes throwing off balance in the game is too great as of now to leave as is. i don't want to see melee's MC system again, but i wouldn't mind somewhere in between.

it's that the gap between recoveries in this game is so huge that some measures have to be taken to add some base defense to attacks that will utterly shut down most characters in one shot, almost regardless of percentage. otherwise, you'll have too much polarizing onstage vs. off, like with oli and ness. there's nothing wrong with the offstage character being at a disadvantage, but, at the same time, if nothing is done to relegate how much of a disadvantage that becomes, these characters will have to suffer 0-death syndrome -- either total domination onstage or total compliance offstage --, which is really awful (EDIT: EDIT2 to avoid smiley) period, as well as for teams.

sum: something should be done with a large aspect of the offstage system to prevent polarization of attributes (awesome onstage/terrible off, awesome recovery/terrible gimping and combos, or weight, etc.). MC system overview would be a good start.

also, i feel like i should mention DK and Bowser somewhere in this. can't say where, though.

 

[KOkingpin]

Oh god, if Brawl+ goes back to that horrid ****fest of a meteor canceling system that was in Melee, I'd swear off it forever.


For Heaven's sake, when I can SUCCESSFULLY use Mario's Fair which takes a year and a half to come out against a Jigglypuff at like 100%, then have it be canceled and then end up with ME getting gimped for successfully landing my 100-year-startup laggy short-ranged meteor that has to be outlined in the player's guide because it's supposedly important, something is horribly, horribly wrong.

**** the Melee meteor canceling system. Brawl's meteor canceling is perfect, even if meteors can be combo'd into.

As stated, Ness's dair is the exception, not the rule. :\

First off Mario's Fair is best used with the Doc Box. an occasional Fair spike is nice but Jiggs dies from Dthrow DocFair at 90ish.

Secondly, Have you ever played melee? There were quite a few Non Meteor Spikes. Learn to abuse the MC system.

...People tried to use meteors to kill in Melee? News to me. I thought they didn't because of the meteor canceling system. The only spikes worth using were the ones that weren't meteors.

Ganon Dair didn't care about MCs and even if they did MC they were in a horrible position to recover.
Edit: upon review It may be cause I play ganon in melee that I think this about Meteors.


Too many character can be spike happy off the ledge without really worrying about repercussions.

i'm merely arguing that the extent of which meteors and spikes throwing off balance in the game is too great as of now to leave as is. i don't want to see melee's MC system again, but i wouldn't mind somewhere in between.

it's that the gap between recoveries in this game is so huge that some measures have to be taken to add some base defense to attacks that will utterly shut down most characters in one shot, almost regardless of percentage. otherwise, you'll have too much polarizing onstage vs. off, like with oli and ness. there's nothing wrong with the offstage character being at a disadvantage, but, at the same time, if nothing is done to relegate how much of a disadvantage that becomes, these characters will have to suffer 0-death syndrome -- either total domination onstage or total compliance offstage --, which is really awful (EDIT: EDIT2 to avoid smiley) period, as well as for teams.

sum: something should be done with a large aspect of the offstage system to prevent polarization of attributes (awesome onstage/terrible off, awesome recovery/terrible gimping and combos, or weight, etc.). MC system overview would be a good start.

also, i feel like i should mention DK and Bowser somewhere in this. can't say where, though.

I like this guy

 

[Doval]

Secondly, Have you ever played melee? There were quite a few Non Meteor Spikes.

And they all sucked against anyone that knew how to MC properly. It was usually much better to hit the enemy with almost any other sort of attack (usually n-airs, b-airs and f-airs) if you didn't have a spike.

Ganon had probably the strongest Meteor and even he couldn't guarantee death on characters with a decent vertical recovery. That's why people would spike with the back part of his up-air whenever possible.