Meta Knight over nerfed?

[zozo]

 

[MasterOfKnees]

The visual indications of his attacks is most certainly a flaw.

I don't think he's terrible, but he doesn't feel like that great of a character honestly, he is lacking range and kill power, and he isn't even that fast either as he has a lot of lag and startup. His combo potential is also very limited, there are a few things he can do, but nothing that's too impressive. Will have to play him a lot more to place a proper verdict, but at the moment he feels pretty weak, and even if that might just be a side-effect going from an overpowered character to something less I do not believe he is among the game's better characters. I do still prefer this over an overpowered character though.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

He could use a bit of a buff here and there, i think. Match his range to the visuals, and maybe give a bit more kill power, and I'd like to see where he ends up. As said above, it definitely is tough when being so used to the OP version

 

[PK Gaming]

Metaknight, over-nerfed?

Hehe... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[zozo]

I've pretty much dropped him in this game at least. Having much more fun with Peach and Greninja.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

I've pretty much dropped him in this game at least. Having much more fun with Peach and Greninja.

Pretty much this. I'm forcefully practicing with him, as I love Metaknight as a character with a passion, but he just doesn't resonate well at all. Other characters like Greninja, Charizard, and Dark Pit have been way easier to stick with and succeed well

 

[Xinc]

I've pretty much dropped him in this game at least. Having much more fun with Peach and Greninja.

I adore your profile picture, it's cute, but not lewd.

Anyway, in response to your OP, I don't think he's overly nerfed. Maybe slightly nerfed more than normal (seeing his down smash barely does anything anymore), but he still lethal, especially in the air. His up air still strings to his upB and will kill around mid percents, for example.

 

[zozo]

I adore your profile picture, it's cute, but not lewd.

Anyway, in response to your OP, I don't think he's overly nerfed. Maybe slightly nerfed more than normal (seeing his down smash barely does anything anymore), but he still lethal, especially in the air. His up air still strings to his upB and will kill around mid percents, for example.

Thanks, I thought was adorable pic of Peach. But yeah as far as MK in this game, I guess in order to be successful with him you've gotten adapt to his changes. I'm guessing he probably plays totally different in this game and I'm not used to it yet. I'll keep playing him a little more and see if something clicks. If not I'm moving on.

 

[Erebus]

Meta Knight was my main in Brawl. I don't know ... It seems nerfed in the new Smash, but not very much.
In my opinion is just more balanced.

 

[Mettie7]

He doesn't seem that nerfed to me, just less damage and some cooldown here and there. Tbh I think it's the 3DS controls, he'll be a lot easier to use on the Wii U I'm sure, just like everyone else.

 

[Xinc]

He doesn't seem that nerfed to me, just less damage and some cooldown here and there. Tbh I think it's the 3DS controls, he'll be a lot easier to use on the Wii U I'm sure, just like everyone else.

Well, Dsmash doesn't kill that early anymore.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Would rather slightly underpowered than hideously overpowered.

The reduced spammability on his moves was a good change as it raised his skill floor. But with that came a reduction to how much pressure he can apply, and so I think his lack of killing power on top of this might have been a bit much. Time will tell, but if he feels any lower than midtier, it's just because he's harder to play (intentionally).

 

[shogungari]

I don't think he's been too badly nerfed, it's just that now he's on par with the other characters we're starting to see the drawbacks he was supposed to have in Brawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I like that Tornado was strictly redesigned to be a close range raw punish rather than an all-purpose win button.

I like that Metaknight's Up-B and Down-B are strong KO options, but risky.

I also like that Metaknight does like 13% for doing D-throw -> move.

Finally, his range nerfs were completely necessary. Like...it just wasn't fair that he had 3 frame moves hat had more range than everything...

I think his nerfs and general changes are all fair when you consider he still has one of the most solid recoveries in the game and is a monster at edgeguarding.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I like that Tornado was strictly redesigned to be a close range raw punish rather than an all-purpose win button.

I like that Metaknight's Up-B and Down-B are strong KO options, but risky.

I also like that Metaknight does like 13% for doing D-throw -> move.

Finally, his range nerfs were completely necessary. Like...it just wasn't fair that he had 3 frame moves hat had more range than everything...

I think his nerfs and general changes are all fair when you consider he still has one of the most solid recoveries in the game and is a monster at edgeguarding.

My biggest complaint so far is that the visual for his aerials indicate that it should hit, but the hitbox is actually smaller. Also, I think that if you get a successful shuttle loop on someone, the second hit should be guaranteed. I've gotten quite a bit of them where the second hit misses resulting in a free punish for them. I do agree that the tornado nerf was necessary and it's still pretty useful to punish bad rolls.

 

[Judo777]

My biggest complaint so far is that the visual for his aerials indicate that it should hit, but the hitbox is actually smaller. Also, I think that if you get a successful shuttle loop on someone, the second hit should be guaranteed. I've gotten quite a bit of them where the second hit misses resulting in a free punish for them. I do agree that the tornado nerf was necessary and it's still pretty useful to punish bad rolls.

I agree about the animations. I almost feel like it was a big troll by nintendo to do the animations that way. The worst I have seen is ftilt, I swear the last 40% of his sword does not have a hitbox. Like its pretty ridiculous.

 

[iVoltage]

Figured I'd ask this here. Is Meta Knight bad with these nerfs? I'd like to pick him up since hes one of my favorite characters in the kirby games, but not if hes totally unuseable this time around.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Figured I'd ask this here. Is Meta Knight bad with these nerfs? I'd like to pick him up since hes one of my favorite characters in the kirby games, but not if hes totally unuseable this time around.

The biggest problem he has right now is the lack of kill power. Despite misleading hitboxes, he's not that bad. Some issues will be better once the Wii U version comes out (will be easier to punish bad rolls with c stick and up B ooS will be viable). I'd say he's a little better than middle of the pack.

 

[PolarPanda]

He still seems alright though, just not as overpowered with that lag and loss of kill power. Definitely not bottom tier, though.

 

[warionumbah2]

he's horribly nered.

 

[Ruminator]

I didn't play Brawl, so I couldn't say.

His damage is very low and he has to work pretty hard to kill, though. Plus, his moves don't have that many active frames, so winning online with him (i.e beating rolls and dodges) is difficult.

EDIT: To put it simply, he is a really hard working character.

 

[Erebus]

I've done some matches with Meta Knight lately and, from what I remember from Brawl, I can say:
- His basic attack dmg is has decreased a lot.
- His UP skill is less good for saving but more good for fight and finish opponents.
- His basic attack range is decreased.
- His DOWN skill is hard to control (for me, at least.)

Yeah, I don't want to call this a "nerf". More like ... A balancing.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

I am seriously struggling with this guy now. I'm trying to practice with him, but I can barely even fight lv 9 cpu. can't really kill anything and the range feels too short on most attacks. I feel like he could use some Slight buffs.

As much as I hate it, I've been attacking with mainly my specials, as they have the best range with some decent knockback. It feels spammy, sadly, but it feels a lot safer than relying on his other attacks

 

[Narth]

He was my main in Brawl, and although I agree he was in need of a nerfing, this is too much. I think his attacks have too much lag and not much power to them. I hope that in a patch this sort of stuff can be fixed in his favour, as well as in Marth and Lucina's favours...

 

[New_Dumal]

Range is everything in this scenario.
The lack of kill power would not be a burden if we could reach our enemies from a good distance.

If kill power is eveything, Pit and Sonic would've been very low tier at Brawl.
The bigger problem with MK was that he was a beast in gimping and edge-guarding, but also great at killing.
Now he is okay at gimping, bad at edge-guarding and bad at killing.
From 3 ways to get a stock, he has horrible options to 2 of them, everything because range.

MK still good because he has a great recovery (his jumps are actual smaller this time, right ?), and a decent aerial game.
But he is far away from being a very good character because he has more flaws than positive things.

MK should been nerfed in killpower and in damage, building a character that naturally would beat you much more than you beat him, but is still balanced because has kill-problems. Now with "okay" killpower and low reach, you have difficult to land moves, and that proves yet more difficult at landing K.O's.

 

[bluebolt]

Meta Knight's main strength to kill at low% via offstage prowess is still there, but it's really really hard with nerfed range. I don't know where I feel with him in terms of being too nerfed or not, but I think some of it could have been handled better. What I definitely like is his Up-B change, since it's such a good kill move that can punish you, but is itself great for punishing.

I feel like his Nair should be a lot better, since his F-air is much better but its hitbox is bad. The option to use Nair (with similar power to fair) would be fair because you adapt to the situation that the enemy is TOO close, so your fair would miss.

Down-B sees more use as an easier to use kill move than his smashes. Its range seems to be better and you position yourself before using it, making the kill easier. Against more competent players, they will have enough time to react and use shield, though. Good for easily punishing slow attacking characters, though.

I'm not sure what Neutral B and Side B are good for, possibly trying to catch out people who dodge too much since they're longer lasting than fair and ftilt. The bounce from side B is annoying, but you could use it to disengage after going at your opponent, though that's not too useful since you're left vulnerable at the same time.

His grab seems to be the same, I actually have no idea if that changed but it didn't need to anyway I guess. Best used, like before, to pull your enemy out of their position and off the stage.

I like that his neutral can at least launch an opponent away after you finish it, so it's more of an alternative to ftilt used to catch out people using dodge too much, or moving too much. Also seems to have better close-up range. It's actually a lot like what I want his nair to be.

I think that's all I can think of for now. I need to change all my stuff since I haven't been on boards for 3000 years.

[edit] One thing I was considering is being able to slow your decent and sideways movement in air by holding jump, even between your 5 jumps, making it easier to line up your aerials, allowing you to stay offstage more but not improving the recovery (since you'd go the same distance, but slower). What are your opinions on that?

Not going to lie though, I was actually hoping they'd make his moveset closer to the Kirby games more than just balancing him.

Maybe not having his projectiles beams, but making his side-B and B closer seems easily done. Perhaps Drill Rush could have been charged (Like how he focuses in Super Star), and B, while the damage would have been nerfed, would have more suction to it and launch opponents at the end. It could actually have its own use like that as a sort of mid-air grab almost. And you can't necessarily use that off stage to kill, due to becoming vulnerable. Except maybe on their last stock?

They made his dair so that you don't hit enemies on the side, so they could at least have made it resemble his down thrust. The hitbox could probably match doing that too.

 

[z00ted]

Metaknight is absolutely terrible in this game.

 

[Jabejazz]

Funnily enough, I have fun playing him, now that all of his moves have Rest's hitbox.

 

[ndayday]

I mean yeah sure, but it's a little sad when some characters are doing down smashes the size of 2 Donkey Kongs and MK gets to swing his little knife around

 

[z00ted]

LOL you guys are spot on, character's definitely a joke.
Pretty much made this time around just to select him and go, "Remember THIS guy?".

 

[Ruminator]

I'm not sure what Neutral B and Side B are good for

I use tornado exclusively to punish rolls and it works really well. Side B is also good for punishing, I find myself using it a lot.

 

[Ｍａｒｙ]

The bounce from side B is annoying, but you could use it to disengage after going at your opponent, though that's not too useful since you're left vulnerable at the same time.

The bounce is pretty cool, if you hit someone and travel off stage with them the bounce will flick you back and have you grab a ledge.

 

[ndayday]

I'm with this guy, except I would probably never use it to go offstage because if they break out you're pretty screwed.
the break is the only good thing about the move, otherwise you'd land right on top of them after it gets over with. that you can break away by aiming it into the ground is also good.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

LOL you guys are spot on, character's definitely a joke.
Pretty much made this time around just to select him and go, "Remember THIS guy?".

Then you speak out of ignorance because you've obviously don't know how to play this guy in this game and haven't even bothered to learn him properly. So far he is ranking decently in early categorizations and because of his changes the way people used to play has to change as well. It doesn't mean he is now ineffective.

 

[z00ted]

Then you speak out of ignorance because you've obviously don't know how to play this guy in this game and haven't even bothered to learn him properly. So far he is ranking decently in early categorizations and because of his changes the way people used to play has to change as well. It doesn't mean he is now ineffective.

*****, do you even know who I am? Shut the hell up before you start accusing me of ignorance and learn your place skill wise unless you want to throw some money on the line. Not saying I don't respect you as a player (you could be very good / knowledgeable for all I know) but I definitely don't respect your tone. Time for you to do your research, I may not have exclusively played him in Brawl but I know first-hand of what he's capable of from people close to me. Way too much experience in that field, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to anything post-Brawl and the comparisons between the two.

Metaknight's VERY bad in Smash 4 is all that I'm saying. Your accusations of me "not even bothering to learn him properly" is hypocritical in itself because you don't know what type of work I've been putting into the character or what I've done to post said claims. Could easily go on and on about how ineffective his moveset and design is on this iteration but it's pretty pointless seeing as how it'll show itself in the near future.

 

[JCDied4U]

I always liked MetaKnight and he was my main until I found out he was OP. Now he's comparable to Brawl Ganondorf. It's quite sad really. Besides a good recovery, good grab game, and ability to gimp, he has nothing else but worthless moves.

Overnerfed is an understatement for this character.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

He's not that bad. I'm probably still gonna main him for the hipster effect.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

*****, do you even know who I am? Shut the hell up before you start accusing me of ignorance and learn your place skill wise unless you want to throw some money on the line. Not saying I don't respect you as a player (you could be very good / knowledgeable for all I know) but I definitely don't respect your tone. Time for you to do your research, I may not have exclusively played him in Brawl but I know first-hand of what he's capable of from people close to me. Way too much experience in that field, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to anything post-Brawl and the comparisons between the two.

Metaknight's VERY bad in Smash 4 is all that I'm saying. Your accusations of me "not even bothering to learn him properly" is hypocritical in itself because you don't know what type of work I've been putting into the character or what I've done to post said claims. Could easily go on and on about how ineffective his moveset and design is on this iteration but it's pretty pointless seeing as how it'll show itself in the near future.

You may know everything there is to know about Brawl Meta Knight but that doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about SSB4 Meta Knight yet. Their play-styles are different and what used to work in his Brawl iteration no longer applies in Sm4sh. Meta Knight is not bad in Smash 4 because I've seen first-hand as well what the guy is capable of know, despite receiving that much needed nerfs.
He is not gonna easily win a match for you like before but he is a character that is going to make you work hard for your victory. If you are writing him immediately as bad, then you need to put more work into that character and learn even more about him.

 

[JCDied4U]

You may know everything there is to know about Brawl Meta Knight but that doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about SSB4 Meta Knight yet. Their play-styles are different and what used to work in his Brawl iteration no longer applies in Sm4sh. Meta Knight is not bad in Smash 4 because I've seen first-hand as well what the guy is capable of know, despite receiving that much needed nerfs.
He is not gonna easily win a match for you like before but he is a character that is going to make you work hard for your victory. If you are writing him immediately as bad, then you need to put more work into that character and learn even more about him.

At this point I'd say that Rosalina without her Luma is still better than Metaknight. The risk reward ratio of almost all of Metaknight's moves is terrible. Sure some people may be able to do well with him in the future if they dedicate themselves, but that still means he's low tier.

 

[Shaya]

You may know everything there is to know about Brawl Meta Knight but that doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about SSB4 Meta Knight yet. Their play-styles are different and what used to work in his Brawl iteration no longer applies in Sm4sh. Meta Knight is not bad in Smash 4 because I've seen first-hand as well what the guy is capable of know, despite receiving that much needed nerfs.
He is not gonna easily win a match for you like before but he is a character that is going to make you work hard for your victory. If you are writing him immediately as bad, then you need to put more work into that character and learn even more about him.

How is your anecdotal evidence any better than someone else? I do think you are indeed in the right to ask for more clarification, but you aren't providing anything to his accusations other than "you're wrong, you don't know anything" over "why?".

I've played MK a lot this game. I genuinely feel he is in the lower tier region, even after thinking of him as being fine in the early stages. This character has no priority nor range (both come hand in hand, but considering this character once had transcended priority on everything), this is culminated in his low damage output on single hits. He can edgeguard/gimp well, but has nothing fearsome to get them there in the first place, and the better characters can still negate this heavily. Everything he has isn't safe on shield, everything and that's really concerning on a character with extremely low damage output and with a swordsman/spacing archetype.

What really clutches it for him throughout all of his nerfs is that his true strength, the air, is good but not good enough. I cannot up air juggle people or frame trap because nearly every character's down air has larger range. Their fast fall air dodges are not covered by immediate down airing like it was in Brawl, nor is hard punished with neutral air (an almost useless move in this iteration except in off stage "poking").

I really enjoy his different Up B, and respect there to be potential in his Side-B and Down-B. Tornado can still be a safe hit and run on shield if you accept the fact it is not shield pressure and you will die for thinking so.
Although he seems to have some cool niches/abilities in his specials now, from practise they're still all terrible (bar Up-B). Down-B doesn't seem to have invincibility as he comes out, nor on his attack; it does a lot of damage and is a pretty big hitbox but I cleanly lose to people throwing out attacks in the general area... Side-B and Tornado have negative priority, they lose to every attack I've seen, no matter what and although Tornado is meant to have an anti-projectile niche (as it says in its description) it's quite terrible at doing that when I don't think any projectile above 2-3% is phased by it.

His approach game is literally dash attack and dash grab only. It's a 50/50 mix up that opponent's can cover both options at the same time and punish us very hard for attempting them. Otherwise he has no means of going in or applying pressure unless they're above him (and are terrible in the air) or off stage. He might not be the poorest character in neutral in this game due to his ground speed, but he sure does have the least amount of reason to respect it.

The closest thing to a semblance of power and ability for MK in this game is down air spacing above people's heads. Five jumps, fast fall cancels into fast falls and also the much easier footstool jumps (footstool jump on someone's shield into down air is guaranteed), but in general just holding shield or rolling away resets the situation in the negative for MK, he cannot fast fall to the ground, that's a lot of lag, nor has the mobility to chase you from the air if you choose to roll. Meh.