Meta Knight Legal at Big Tournies contradicts Ban

[The Ben]

Why don't we just adopt Japan's rule set, that way us and them play the same game?

Why don't they just adopt our rule set?

 

[infiniteV115]

What I am saying is that if we decided on a ruleset that the majority (>80%) of players and tournaments used without modifying them, then we would no longer have to discuss banning MK, or legalizing stage X, or how long the timer should be. And without having to worry about all of that, we can start progressing again.

The problem is that there isn't a ruleset that 80% of players will agree on.

 

[fabulouspants]

Why don't they just adopt our rule set?

because they destroyed us on our home turf after all the ish we been talking about their players? lol maybe?

 

[WindMajor]

Why don't they just adopt our rule set?

The Japanese are all (or mostly) in agreement with the ruleset they had before, there wasn't much to debate on since everybody was basically on the same page. Lately the Japanese have been experimenting with hybrid rulesets (they only had 3 stages legal, but now a section of Japan is using around 6 or 7 stages), but I doubt a full blown adoption of an American ruleset will be seen.

 

[Siyh]

Why don't they just adopt our rule set?

lol please see fabulouspants's post lol.

I honestly like japan's rule set because all three stages are simple and possess the least amount of stage dependent advantages to specific characters, or stage interference.

 

[infiniteV115]

iirc Japan has 2 standard rulesets. The one everybody hears about (FD BF SV only) and the other is Rain's ruleset (FD BF SV starters, CPs are YI:B, Delfino and...something else, I forget. CS?). Or it was 1 ruleset in east japan, another in the west. Can I get clarification on this?

And AFAIK not many of these japanese players spend their time on SWF, they could very well be debating heavily on their rulesets on some other medium and we wouldn't know.

 

[The Ben]

because they destroyed us on our home turf after all the ish we been talking about their players? lol maybe?

This doesn't say anything about the quality of the rule set as much as it does the quality of the players. A game must be fun to have any long-term competitive value. That's really it. You can dwindle the stage list down to 3 stages, but it doesn't actually make the game any more exciting and possibly makes it less exciting. Since a game needs to appeal to the masses to be successful (long term) the rule set necessarily should appeal to the widest possible audience. Most people enjoy a larger stage list so it is beneficial for the game (and the community) to play on a larger stage list.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm pretty sure the reason Japan won't use "our" ruleset is the very same issue highlighted in this thread - that we don't have a singular "our" ruleset that everyone in the country uses in the first place.

 

[Magma Dolphin]

I'm pretty sure the reason Japan won't use "our" ruleset is the very same issue highlighted in this thread - that we don't have a singular "our" ruleset that everyone in the country uses in the first place.

^ Meaning this is something we should work on and then promote. As I see it we can:
a.) Promote URC and make sure the greatest number of tournaments possible are using it.
or
b.) Start from scratch developing a new and balanced ruleset that focuses less on stage choice and character counter picking on certain stages and focuses more on player development.
or
c.) Both; Modify unity ONE LAST TIME and then leave it alone and enforce its use.

I think choice a. is easier, c. will take some work, and b. is going to be heavily resented

 

[C.J.]

1) Japan didn't "destroy" us by any definition of the word. They beat us, barely. Nairo beat Japan's #2, Esam beat Kakera, Nairo vs Otori was very close, etc etc. They beat us, yes. They didn't "destroy" us.

2) I don't understand where the idea that Japan > the US because of their ruleset came from, but that train of thought is kind of stupid. The most likely reason that they beat us is because of population density/distance between top players allowing for better and more consistent practice. After that you have things like "work ethic" and the such (the Japanese players seem to have far more precise tech skill and almost never mess up while American players seem to, more often, be content with *mostly* being able to do something while still messing up).

3) How can Japan adopt "our" ruleset when "we" have 12 different ones?

 

[ぱみゅ]

the only thing I've seen japanese actually adopting is the timer being reduced to 8 minutes, which is completly understandable.

And that line of thinking comes from a certain thread by Seibrik iirc (not sure) where he pretty much said "if they use less stages, they have to improve their characters alone instead of relying on advantageous grounds", supporting his argument with some relevant posts. Which I consider absurd.

Sure, you can learn things on simpler stages, withouth having to learn a lot of complicated stuff like timings or viewing the background every 20 seconds or so.
But I think that stuff can be learned by your own, and there's no need to keep doing them if you are already in a tournament.
Just play, play, play and keep playing. You'll eventually learn something meaningful (by your own or by reading it on a forum like this) and use it on more complex scenarios.

 

[Laem]

This Unity talk will always remind me of the Master of Fallout 1 eheh.
CJ: pretty sure that train of thought came from that one fairly well written thread by Seibrik. Didn't buy it either myself tho. I strongly believe Japan > US because theyre asian (:

Btw i suspect Japan will somewhat adopt a US ruleset if only to be able to compete on CP's for big US tourneys. Philosophy on stages probably matters way less than Yens. Especially since it is probably irrelevant regarding general skill level.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm pretty sure the larger Japanese stagelist uses FD, BF, SV as starters, and YiB, PS1, Lylat as CP stages. If they have other stages they sometimes use, then they aren't any more unified in their ruleset than we are cuz I know they use an 8min timer in some regions and the 10min in others. They have just as many different lil tweaks to the rules as we do, and the truth is that it doesn't matter. People who are good at the game will have no trouble adapting to different stages or different timers. Those things aren't as significant as people make it seem.

 

[C.J.]

I know that's where the idea became super "mainstream" but I remember seeing a lot of talk about that prior to that stupid thread as well.

 

[Cassio]

Tuen made some really interesting points on the subject. No one really refuted his point, but people can believe what they want. I dont think its correct to call it stupid though just bc you dont agree

@ OP the thing you need to consider is that a sizable portion of the community doesnt even want a unified ruleset, including pretty much the entire West Coast. Makes the process difficult if not impossible, lol.

 

[Zankoku]

imo a ruleset need only be unified enough to satisfy those who would reasonably attend the tournament. SoCal tournaments have very little incentive to adopt the stage list used in, say, Kentucky, and as mentioned above Japan doesn't need to go against its own tournament-attending community's preferences unless they're planning on practicing up for a big international outside of their country.

 

[Dcold]

I remember AZ talking about one of the points of the Unity Ruleset. Basically, he said, if I were to go to a tournament in Georgia, I shouldn't have to learn how to play on Jungle Japes, Corneria, and Skyworld. I shouldn't have to learn the ins and outs of every stage, just incase they're being used in another tournament. A good player can do well on those stages yes, but they're at a huge disadvantage because said tournament uses stages that haven't been used since like 08.

Player preference kills that because some people want to play on Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar, but others do not, with neither side willing to compromise. It's the same with Metaknight, and to a lesser extent the same with the Timer. With divided rulesets, it kind of kills some of the competition. Some players that main MK, so they will only go to MK legal, and some will refuse to go to MK Legal tournaments, at a local, national, and international level.

 

[Zankoku]

It goes both ways, though. You potentially kill out-of-region attendance when running a non-compromising ruleset tailored to your area, but you potentially kill local attendance if you attempt to conform against the majority of your region's preferences. The only time a ruleset can force a standard is if the tournament is so large that even non-local TOs are willing to adopt it for their region's players to practice (huge regionals, nationals, and internationals).

 

[Cassio]

I think ruleset variation turned out to not be that big a deal. Sort of like Tuens argument, if you learn the AT mechanics of stages like SV, BF, FD it seems to apply across just about any stage youd encounter and results seem to indicate this as well. I think one of the things some of us were amazed by at Apex was how the Japanese seemed to be more adept at our counter-pick stages even though they arent common in Japan.

Also I dont see how players having ruleset preferences would change anything with one ruleset.

Edit: Sort of a tangent but imo local attendance is one of the big things we tend to ignore as a community and its really a shame. Were so caught up in our established community and connections, and having attendees from long distances that we forget about advertising and no-brainer places like game clubs, gaming stores, schools, etc. From what Ive heard part of the reason Apex was so big was because there was a lot of local attendees. Attendees that live within 20-30 min of the venue should make up the bulk of any event, although the frequency of events can have an affect on this.

 

[The Ben]

And even then you're asking everyone else to conform to your standards (just in this case your standards happen to be Unity's). The problem mostly stems from Unity being (perceptually) arbitrary (even if they're not). This is why official tournaments or third party ran tournaments are healthier than large scale community ran tournaments. A corporate identity is more convincing than everybody because on the surface nobody having an input is less systemically oppressive than the vocal members of the community dominating how the less vocal play.

 

[DarkSimorgh]

It is all about the stages. I love that this is being brought up. Even with all stages being legal, it will take some great amount of skill to overcome your opponent. Stage limitations don't really favor anyone except those in their homeland, and it would almost be better to play stages you AREN'T familiar with so that way you can practice your tactics in an unfamiliar and spontaneous event if you happen to end up at a tourney with rules you aren't used to. Besides, as it has been stated, this will occur a lot considering there really is no actually ruleset the US follows fluently and consistently.

 

[BSP]

This could be closed now since there's no standard anymore.

 

[Roller]

Sure there is. The Japanese Standard.

 

[Dnyce]

I only read the title...

 

[WindMajor]

Nothing productive is coming out of this, so I'll just follow up on what BSP said.

*dip*