Melee Will Return For CEO 2015, Project M Dropped, Smash 4 Likely

[Leland527]

My apologies! I thought you didn't like Smash 4. I do agree with your point though. As much as I like Smash 4 competitively compared to Brawl, I still prefer PM and Melee more just because it's a little faster, gives you more options, and is more fun to play and watch, even though I don't think Melee is perfect like many claim it is when it has flaws, such as balancing issues!

However, we do have Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity mode in Smash 4. It's so fun to play and watch!

Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity is fun and all but it still misses the advanced movement options. In Melee or PM Ganon can move around freely with platforms to use but in Sm4sh, even the faster characters can't seem to move around creatively.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I only have a response to one thing in your reply: "Unlike brawl smash 4 rewards aggression and pressure." This is unequivocally untrue and any smash bros player will agree. In Smash 4 every offensive input is 10 frames + landing/ending lag while the defensive inputs are frame 1.

if you ever made a trip down to the competitive impressions thread where we dissected something called shield stun and shield knock back. you will know why i said what i said.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Smooth Lander + Heavy Gravity is fun and all but it still misses the advanced movement options. In Melee or PM Ganon can move around freely with platforms to use but in Sm4sh, even the faster characters can't seem to move around creatively.

I do agree with that, but it's still a nice alternative option if you want a fast-paced match! This mode IMO doesn't turn the game into Melee 2.0.

It's definitely worth more testing though. My biggest problem with it is trying to balance the stats of your equipment and it takes a while to get every equipment. It can take a while before this becomes an official ruleset for Smash 4!

 

[Leland527]

I do agree with that, but it's still a nice alternative option if you want a fast-paced match! This mode IMO doesn't turn the game into Melee 2.0.

It's definitely worth more testing though. My biggest problem with it is trying to balance the stats of your equipment and it takes a while to get every equipment. It can take a while before this becomes an official ruleset for Smash 4!

I don't think this will ever be an official ruleset simply because it requires the use of custom moves, but it would be awesome if it ever is

 

[RanserSSF4]

@ Leland527 If it does become an official ruleset, it would have to be not only till everyone gets all custom moves and equipment, but also in case the Smash 4 scene dies down. However, this mode would be a great side tourney event, similar to how PM was used more in Side tourneys while Melee was the standard game in tournament play!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I only have a response to one thing in your reply: "Unlike brawl smash 4 rewards aggression and pressure." This is unequivocally untrue and any smash bros player will agree. In Smash 4 every offensive input is 10 frames + landing/ending lag while the defensive inputs are frame 1.

This is really misleading and inaccurate.

Not every move hitting a shield is going to result in 10 frames of start up with lots of end lag. A lot of moves auto cancel and even then without it proper spacing with some character will make them still be safe.

Shields take 18 frames of lag to drop if you put them up and don't get hit in smash 4. Empty Short hops ftw.

Holding shield isn't going to win you a game, even more so when peopel are whining about Diddy doing Dthrow to Uair being OP.

 

[Leland527]

This is really misleading and inaccurate.

Not every move hitting a shield is going to result in 10 frames of start up with lots of end lag. A lot of moves auto cancel and even then without it proper spacing with some character will make them still be safe.

Shields take 18 frames of lag to drop if you put them up and don't get hit in smash 4. Empty Short hops ftw.

Holding shield isn't going to win you a game, even more so when peopel are whining about Diddy doing Dthrow to Uair being OP.

Holding shield won't win you a game but thats not what I said, the engine in Smash 4 clearly rewards defensive play, that is something we cannot argue, and I am saying I like a more offensive style. I am not knocking those who enjoy to play a sluggish game which benefits sitting back with projectiles and letting your opponent approach, I am just stating that I would much rather play a fast paced game

 

[RanserSSF4]

I don't think this will ever be an official ruleset simply because it requires the use of custom moves, but it would be awesome if it ever is

If it does become an official ruleset, it would have to be not only till everyone gets all custom moves and equipment, but also in case the Smash 4 scene dies down. However, this mode would be a great side tourney event, similar to how PM was used more in Side tourneys while Melee was the standard game in tournament play!

(I had to repeat this post because I forgot to quote your post, but whatever)

It's pretty much a best of both worlds. You got Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity (SLHG) tourneys for most of the melee players or players who overall love fast aggressive play, while you have the main game itself for players who prefer the main game over SLHG! It's a win-win situation. The only problem as you mentioned, is that you don't have as much movement options as you did in PM and Melee, so some players from either scene will have to try and get used to it in Smash 4!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Holding shield won't win you a game but thats not what I said, the engine in Smash 4 clearly rewards defensive play, that is something we cannot argue, and I am saying I like a more offensive style. I am not knocking those who enjoy to play a sluggish game which benefits sitting back with projectiles and letting your opponent approach, I am just stating that I would much rather play a fast paced game

Reading quotes like this tells me you don't understand smash 4 or are trying to cherry pick characters like Megaman who's whole design is all projectiles pretty much.

Is this why Sonic and Falcon are among the top 10 in this game then? Because neither have projectiles yet one of these characters so far is in the top 3 in terms of reported placings.

Yes you get rewarded for being defensive, but to downplay how much farther offensive has gotten compared to Brawl is foolhardy.

Heck even in Melee and PM you get rewarded for doing what you are describing.

 

[Zoa]

So basically you can't pressure shield and have to feign with a commitment you might not get anything out of. It takes seven frames to shield drop if I recall correctly, so 11 are able to be jump cancelled while in shield.

 

[-Dubs]

It's pretty much a best of both worlds. You got Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity (SLHG) tourneys for most of the melee players or players who overall love fast aggressive play, while you have the main game itself for players who prefer the main game over SLHG! It's a win-win situation. The only problem as you mentioned, is that you don't have as much movement options as you did in PM and Melee, so some players from either scene will have to try and get used to it in Smash 4!

Still not gonna have beefy combos.

 

[Alex Night]

Yes you get rewarded for being defensive, but to downplay how much farther offensive has gotten compared to Brawl is foolhardy.

Gonna be honest, doesn't really say much considering how low Brawl set the bar on that one and Sm4sh is still a game that heavily favors defense more than offense with the exception of a few characters like Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Cpt. Falcon.

 

[Vaidya]

For real though, PM is just a mod. It's not a legit game. It's basically Melee elitism at its finest. We need to embrace ACTUAL games like Melee and SSB4.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Still not gonna have beefy combos.

i don't know what you're talking about. the combo potential is buffed heavily in this mode and every character has new ways to combo and new combos! from the way you said in your post, it sounds like you didn't experiment this mode yourself or didn't have a lot of time to test it!

 

[Alex Night]

For real though, PM is just a mod. It's not a legit game. It's basically Melee elitism at its finest. We need to embrace ACTUAL games like Melee and SSB4.

You mean embrace low standards like imbalance or recoveries for days? Seriously, the "actual" games argument is really not necessary since Project M has everything that makes it the same as both Smash 4 and Melee. Strategy, spacing, fake-outs, commanding neutrals, etc. As far as I'm concerned, it's as much of an actual game as Melee because it creates moments that you make you jump to your feet or make you chant things like "Stack it up" or "One more stock" over and over again.

Melee is a good game with a long-standing history, but it has its fair share of flaws that Project M fixes upon like how Kirby no longer has throws that people can escape from mid-throw or how Shine no longer has to be able to beat every single move every single time just because. Smash 4 is an interesting game, but the environment still favors defense more often than offense despite the better tune-up on offense and not to mention that some characters have absolutely amazing recoveries that are guaranteed to come back if not KO'd. Don't even get me started on some of the new design choices like keeping Aura Lucario around or the introduction of the Rage mechanic. Others as well as I shouldn't be told to embrace Smash 4 or Melee just because they were officially made by Japanese developers who didn't know how to Wavedash in 2001. We just want to play the game that is essentially a love-letter to the Smash community created by a group of people who had no obligation to do so and were not making any money off it.

 

[byebye]

This is literally the greatest/most true thing I have ever read. I am a PM player and sm4sh, basically a brawl clone with less work put into it (Look at the subspace emissary and argue with me) and it is hurting PM more than anything because, rightfully so, TO's are worried about nintendo shutting them down.

TO's are worried about nintendo shutting them down because of PM itself. PM is a mod. with or without smash4, PM will always be a mod, and the fear of it shutting down is always there. because it is a mod.

people look at smash4 and blame it for hurting PM.
people look at nintendo causing PMs troubles.
when we all know, smash4 is just another game. and nintendo is a company with all the power in the world to shut down PM, but still they don't.

PM being a mod caused all of this. If it is not a mod, we might be looking at a different scenario now. Melee, Brawl, a non mod PM full game, and smash 4 in CEO. which is good. but PM is a mod.

 

[masterpad]

Smash 4 seems to be taking priority over PM, and it's a huge disappointment. Like seriously what the heck. I am all for giving smash wii u a fair shot in the Competitve scene and quite frankly am sick of people dissing it, but if it is going to take priority over an already established and honestly, better competitive game, then I'm going to get sick of seeing it.

good point!

 

[MegaMissingno]

For real though, PM is just a mod. It's not a legit game. It's basically Melee elitism at its finest. We need to embrace ACTUAL games like Melee and SSB4.

To you it may be "just a mod", but to me it's still the best game I've ever played. The fact that it's a mod doesn't change that, and it's pretty closed-minded and disrespectful to hate on it and call fans elitists just for that. The only elitist here is you.

 

[Vashimus]

For real though, PM is just a mod. It's not a legit game. It's basically Melee elitism at its finest. We need to embrace ACTUAL games like Melee and SSB4.

The only difference between a game and a mod is that people got paid to do the first one. And what "elitism"? If anything, it's a love letter to people who loved Melee's gameplay.

And who the heck are you to say what Smash games we should embrace anyway?

 

[masterpad]

I don't understand why a mod of a game should have more priority over a new game in the series.

Because, maybe the tournament are made first for the players and not to promote a game, and if a game is aclaimed by players this game deserve to be consider as important in a tournament's organisation either he is the newest or not.

But all the actuel struggle with ProjectM left aside or be insidiously shutdown is so typical of every popular mod's story. The chances are near zero that One day the story end's like Counter Stryke with nintendo buying the name PM but watching what's happening it is truly edifying.

Reggie Fils Aimé is a great, awesome guy. I don't have any insider at nintendo but i am convinced that he is the one made Nintendo's Kyoto Direction to understand many occidental common business fact.
Nintendo has always fought agains ANY use of its license eyond its yoke, from nintendo game's video on youtube to the presence off any smashbros game in any tournament. But that was before.

ProjectM succes couldn't anymore be ignored. Zelda/sheik, samus/zerosuitsamus were splitted in PM,smash4 splitted them too. PM gave more flat stages for competitive play smash4 also did it (apparently forgetting that little platforms have theirs importances in competitives play).
Then, the WiiU came out and made bad sales figures.
And for 2014 , Smashbros4 became a more major asset for the wiiU's health. Nintendo sponsored E.V.O 2014, gave his blessing for mélée at the event. ALL THIS TO PREPARE SMASH4 ARRIVAL. There are no chance, no coincidence;
SAKURAI is gentle in his public speech but HE NEVER LIKED THE WAY MELEE GOES COMPETITIVE OR SHOULD I SAY "HARDCORE COMPETITIVE". He did all the changes in brawl in the consciousness of what he did, kill the competitive game and he had already had to admit in the past.(The players randomly fall, seriously!).
Nintendo is the careless amusement with skills possibility for those who find fun in it. But competitive game of mélée (and PM by extension) , are at a far extreme position.
I am not an apple lover or hater, just a watcher but, I remember Steve jobs had sworn to destroy Android Market. I think deep in his heart Sakurai is not really far from that about ProjectM.

I don't doubt tournament's organisator have may reason to left PM aside. But I am sure they know that is a good picture for nintendo support.
Nintendo made his move and is up to PM fans now.

 

[-LzR-]

Why did you get a warning for this?

Because it was a bad thing to say

 

[byebye]

Nintendo made his move and is up to PM fans now.

agreed. pm fans, just play what you want to play, support pm as long as you can. there'll come a time where all of this will stop and many will move on while there'll be few who'll stick around. and it's ok. such is the environment of competitive gaming.

don't be too salty, don't rally campaigns to put other games down, don't do threats whether boycotts or death threaths. just play and support the game, have fun while it lasts, keeping in mind that the game is not eternal.

 

[MugenLord]

The problem is that so many people see us as the "Smash community," and TO's don't want to only run games for the "Smash community." We aren't a community anymore. Smash 4 made sure of that. Smash 4 is hurting both PM and Melee as a game, and plenty of the members of the Smash 4 community and Melee/PM community are arguing over their games.
If Nintendo had released Smash 4 with the same type of promotion they've done for their past games, this wouldn't be a problem. Instead, they pretending to listen to our complaints about Brawl and the early versions of Smash 4. They invited primarily top level Melee players to the Smash 4 invitational at E3. They implied this game would be the middle ground we wanted, and while that would create tension among Smash fans, it would be fine.
But that isn't what happened. Smash 4 is not the middle ground, but the blatant exposure Smash 4 has gotten has made people believe it is. I legitimately believe that if Smash 4 had been released without pretending to care about the competitive community, it would've gone the same path as Brawl, but much, much sooner. I've seen far to many people say it has "fixed all of Brawl's problems," but never once have a seen any of them bother to elaborate.
Ever since Smash 4 came out, we haven't been the "Smash community" anymore, just like what happened with Brawl. In the last couple of years, when Melee and PM were the 2 main games for Smash by far, we were a community. The games coexisted, and as one grew, the other grew. Sure, there were some tensions between fans of the two games, but nothing serious. On the other hand, Smash 4 is clearly hurting the growth of PM, and even Melee fans are lashing out at it.
I'm glad CEO is giving a reason for their decision, and it's certainly understandable given that Smash 4 is the new game. However, exactly how long is it going to stay 'new?' This isn't a one time thing. Smash 4 is hurting the community because Nintendo couldn't stick by their word. They've already decided to stop doing balance patches in a metagame that you don't need to a research team to help you realize one character is dominating the rest of the cast.

Sorry for my admittedly biased rant. I could go back and make it seem neutral, but I simply don't want to. I'm legitimately upset, and I'd like that to be known. I'm already fighting the urge to explain each and every thing I dislike about Smash 4 as a competitive game. All bias aside though, it's hard to argue against the statement that the "Smash community" is no longer one community, and that Smash 4 has dealt a serious blow to it rather than helping it.

Really? I just read your entire essay and said to myself, is it really all that serious? Its a game for crying out loud and I believe if there is a community who supports any kind of competitive game, then its not going to go anywhere. I love PM much as the rest of the smash games, and at one point Nintendo wasn't sponsoring or getting involved with the competitive community at all. If melee and smash 4 are the brands that would push the community further by getting Nintendo on board then it would make sense to drop PM at these Sponsored majors because lets be honest, at the end of the day the game is just an unofficial mod. I still play PM, but it is what it is.

More sponsorship, means more money, and more money means more players who are interested to step in to compete on a larger scale. The more players, the chances of more discovery of advance tech which will further advance the meta-game. Smash 4 may not have the same kind of mechanics as Melee, but it damn sure is a pretty solid game overall. I enjoy watching it competitively and the game still needs time to grow as more players sit down with it and pick the game apart.

Any Smash Brothers game brings hype when they are announced and the advertising campaign for this game was much better than past entries but I doubt its the reason why Smash 4 is sticking around this long. The community was hyped for brawl like any other smash game but they instantly found out that the game wasn't as competitive and dropped it but this time around its not like this because some of the competitive players are actually liking this game compared to brawl.

 

[MugenLord]

It's so sad to see this kind of thing happen to PM especially after how hard all the PMDT have worked to perfect their game. With smash 4 it seems like all people care about is money that comes with promoting it. Many new Youtube channels and other online celebrities have started streaming and creating a lot of gameplay videos for Smash 4 who would have never supported the community before. As much as I appreciate Nintendo for creating games that I love how can I keep respecting them if they're discouraging the use of a game that is the product of our community. I know Nintendo is a business and they have to have good promotions and sales to keep many people employed but why do their sales profits have to be at the expense of our communities well being?

Because its a business, if Nintendo didn't create smash then there wouldn't be any community to begin with. Its about money and at the end of the day these tournament organizers has to make money from these sponsorship's because this kind of stuff cost money. Yes, its for the love of the game and its community, but love alone is not going to pay for expenses. If dropping one game which is a MOD to begin with, for an official game, in order to keep these venues going, then so be it. Project M isn't going anywhere as long as the community supports it.

 

[masterpad]

If melee and smash 4 are the brands that would push the community further by getting Nintendo on board then it would make sense to drop PM at these Sponsored majors because lets be honest, at the end of the day the game is just an unofficial mod. I still play PM, but it is what it is.

I won't put anything emotional in this but you are indelicatly ignorant. listen, Nintendo have his problems and players have theirs own.
What is Counter Stryke 1.5/1.6? DO you know about it craziest LAN party tournaments?! Just a mod; Has it ever give any money to Half-Life's creator? We, the players, absolutly DON'T CARE !!!
We need to play!, we only need that games we like to play (mod or not) to be consider in tournament organisation just because we are so many playing theses games.That's all!
We bought the smash64, mélée, brawl, smash4 so we owe nothing financially to Nintendo. Here is our support to Nintendo!
Then if ProjectM please us and we are many to play it, It is absolutly legimate to want/think that the game/mod should be present at those tournaments.

I am not utopist nor idealist neither a fanatic; i only play ProjectM since june2014.
CEO, APEX... they have their road map , their expectations and that's normal, they are event organizer not players . Those who have played mélée and projectM for years certainly helped these event to grow in a way or an other and in the same way these events gave them fun, good times and memories.
Now the paths diverge. This is all about video game, if Smash4 could replace PM or Mélée it would have been a known fact! Player will still play what they like. certainly it is painful to see an obvious magnificent competitive game out of major tournaments but it will never make him less enjoyable to play.

I saw once the 1994 or 95 Super street fighter2 turbo at the E.V.O along with SF4 and many others 2010 fight games... The money is always where the players stick. As long as PM players will stay positive and passionate, just like Sakurai made Smash4 with PM influences, the Events will come back.

 

[stancosmos]

Seeing Project M being dropped out really makes my day.

You got a warning for not agreeing with the masses. **** whatever mod decided that was just.

 

[PootisKonga]

You got a warning for not agreeing with the masses. **** whatever mod decided that was just.

They got a warning for saying something inflammatory. No one cares if someone thinks that way privately, but going out of their way to say they hated a game that many other people love on a forum with plenty of the latter is a stupid idea

 

[stancosmos]

They got a warning for saying something inflammatory. No one cares if someone thinks that way privately, but going out of their way to say they hated a game that many other people love on a forum with plenty of the latter is a stupid idea

stupid sure, not worth a warning. It's giving the impression that you either agree with smashboards or you shutup. Which is damaging to the site. I like PM, and i hope it sticks around in tournament, but if i didn't like it i'd be afraid to say so now.

 

[PootisKonga]

stupid sure, not worth a warning. It's giving the impression that you either agree with smashboards or you shutup. Which is damaging to the site. I like PM, and i hope it sticks around in tournament, but if i didn't like it i'd be afraid to say so now.

It's fine to think and even say you just don't like it

It's not fine to say you're happy that it was cut from a major tournament

 

[stancosmos]

It's fine to think and even say you just don't like it

It's not fine to say you're happy that it was cut from a major tournament

I see your point, but unless it was a troll post, i don't see why it needs to be punished. Why can't people be happy when PM fails?

 

[PootisKonga]

*Why can't people be happy when PM fails?*

If they are happy personally, then whatever. But you just don't rub it in the faces of people who enjoy that game, that's just not sensible

 

[-LzR-]

You got a warning for not agreeing with the masses. **** whatever mod decided that was just.

Tbh I'm lucky I got with just a warning.

 

[Joe73191]

Spoiler

Jebailey here. I just wanted to chime in after everything and I have no problems being upfront with the community since CEO will always get its biggest support from the community directly.

I loved PM last year(Minus the coaching that took forever between sets). Working with the PM team to create a CEO Stage was flat out amazing and those guys deserve all the credit in the world, modded game or not, for putting so much passion into it.

I have yet to have any direct interaction with Nintendo for CEO at all. Would I love to talk to them about some sort of support, of course. I'm a Nintendo fan boy since I was 4 years old. Any time official support comes to a tournament in the past few years it's helped the games featured. However the community itself supported CEO in a huge way itself between Melee and PM so hosting it is no problem at all especially with @RagingCherry and the UCF Gaming Knights doing such a kick *** job.

From a marketing standpoint, all their focus is on Smash 4 now that's it's out for a bit. Who knows if it'll last past this year. I just know to keep PM alive for the fans, streaming it or hosting it at any big event could cause issues such as having the game taken down for good. Not trying to stir things up but I just want to clear the air that the decision isn't really ours to make otherwise I'd be up for hosting it. Although I was honest when I said hosting 3 different Smash Games at an event with more than just Smash would definitely be a challenge.

So I'm sorry to the Diehard PM fans that your game isn't featured this year. I try to please as many people as I can with CEO and feature as much as I can without going overboard but for the most part it's something I'd rather not deal with worrying about it getting shut down right before the event happens and what not. Just cause one or 2 events aren't hosting a game doesn't mean stop playing it. If your local community plays it, keep having fun and enjoying it.

With that said It'll be my pleasure to host the Smash Community again this year and hope to see you guys there. If anything changes for the better on the PM front I won't hesitate to talk about it.

I personally want to thank Alex Jebailey, this is the kind of honesty and integrity and communication we need from our TOs. To come out and really talk to the community. Letting us know what is really up, being transparent. I wish more TOs were like you. Yes I miss PM, but to have someone like you be upfront and giving us clear reasons for your decisions is respectable and I'm proud to have supported CEO last year and definitely hope to attend again this year. Thank you!

 

[masterpad]

If they are happy personally, then whatever. But you just don't rub it in the faces of people who enjoy that game, that's just not sensible

He clearly wants to inflame the hatred of people

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Tbh I'm lucky I got with just a warning.

No,you got a warning for essentially walking up to the P:M players and saying:'Ha ha,your mod just got left out.Serve you right.'

 

[-LzR-]

No,you got a warning for essentially walking up to the P:M players and saying:'Ha ha,your mod just got left out.Serve you right.'

That's pretty much what I was saying...

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Thank you.Now I know you are a really spiteful human being.You know what,I like Project M.But I like Smash 4 too!Gasp!
Even if I had to choose between the two,I'd chose P:M!But it wouldn't give me pleasure seeing the Smash 4 fans disappointed!Gasp!

To people saying P:M isn't a game because it's a modded Brawl-What is it then?A movie?A board game?Huh?

It is a Mod

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Isn't that a video game?

Project M needs Brawl in order to function so no it is not a game if is more of a hacked menu screen that lets you play the game differently which is a mod. Don't take this the wrong way I don't hate Project M and I feel sorry for the players whose scene is not going to be at many big tournaments.

 

[Double Helix]

Well, I get to be disappointed with the Smash community. It's my first time being a part of such a travesty. Just because any of the Smash games are "better" than another doesn't mean you can tell people which to have the most fun with. It really is unfortunate that PM isn't at CEO. It was not said that there couldn't be a side tournament for the game, or that it wouldn't replace Sm4sh in the future. I don't plan on picking up Sm4sh competitively, but it will be fun to see its meta evolve and what players can do with the newest installment of my favorite series. Give time for growth. And please. Don't make people that want to play Sm4sh on a big stage play PM on that stage instead. You get sad sets like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykQAEqkjwpc

 

[-Dubs]

i don't know what you're talking about. the combo potential is buffed heavily in this mode and every character has new ways to combo and new combos! from the way you said in your post, it sounds like you didn't experiment this mode yourself or didn't have a lot of time to test it!

I'm saying that there's still not gonna be enough hitstun for guaranteed follow-ups. 3 hit strings just don't cut it for me.

From the way you're posting, it sounds like you're trying to persuade Melee players to play Smash 4. Btw, I'm not a Smash Bros. fan, not even casually. Competitive Melee is the only reason I'm playing a Smash Bros. title. You play the games you enjoy, and I'll play mine.