Melee Will Return For CEO 2015, Project M Dropped, Smash 4 Likely

[GHNeko]

ITT: rhetoric and semantics.

why does it matter so much what Project M is classified as? rofl

 

[JayTheUnseen]

ITT: rhetoric and semantics.

why does it matter so much what Project M is classified as? rofl

Because using the argument 'it isn't a video game' makes zero sense to me.

 

[Narpas_sword]

PM is essentially a TC (Total Conversion) Mod.

TC's are complete enough that they take the base game and add/change so much that the base game is played completely differently. As such, they can be treated as separate and complete games (provided the TC itself is released as a complete version of course). It is not relevant that the TC mod requires the original game files to play it.

This differs to a 'mod', which can mean nearly anything from a simple costume or UI change, to adding in new content to something like a TC.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Someone just explain to me why any of this bickering over semantics matters. So what if it's a mod, does that somehow mean we're not allowed to enjoy it? What's the point you're trying to make?

 

[JipC]

At least they actually acknowledge the community and flat out say they just don't have the resources, unlike a certain other major that dropped PM

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Someone just explain to me why any of this bickering over semantics matters. So what if it's a mod, does that somehow mean we're not allowed to enjoy it? What's the point you're trying to make?

Because people actually use the excuse 'it's not a video game.'
That makes zero sense.

 

[shapular]

If you have been following up on why this smash4/brawl vs melee/pm debate at all
They're just completely different games
If you're good at third strike, you're gonna be good at usf4
If you're good at Tekken 6, you'll be good at TTT2
In those games the fundamentals, at the very least, transfer from one game to another
In melee to brawl/smash4, it just doesnt happen. At competitive play, they're just completely different games

Smash fundamentals transfer. If they're not transferring, you don't have good fundamentals.

 

[Crome]

Smash fundamentals transfer. If they're not transferring, you don't have good fundamentals.

Play smash bros 4 for a month and then go back to PM and come back to me.

Going back to PM after playing 3DS for a month was brtual.

 

[shapular]

Play smash bros 4 for a month and then go back to PM and come back to me.

Going back to PM after playing 3DS for a month was brtual.

Possibly playing in a PM tourney on Wednesday. I'll let you know how it goes~

 

[LimitCrown]

Project M still uses things from Brawl with a few additions. It doesn't replace most of the assets from Brawl. I don't think it fits the definition of being a total conversion. What the reason to argue that a certain mod is also its own game when it just a modification of a few parts of game and it isn't a standalone?

 

[ilysm]

I don't feel insulted... Just saying. I like brawl competitive. I actually don't really have a problem with melee competitively (Even if the community can eat a ****.) And smash 64 is really interesting competitively. I love watching these games develop since none of them were created for competitive gaming and yet they're doing it because of the fans learning and using the games. Then project M comes along going "God! Remember Melee!? Remember how unfinished and, consequentially, exploitable it could be competitively? Well lets just make that again in brawl since I don't feel like learning brawl. "

Respectfully, I think you may be misinterpreting the whole 'spite mod' thing. For one, I don't think it was because people refused to 'adjust' to Brawl. Brawl had some issues, and I'm not just referring to tripping or the lack of a real hitstun system. It was inherently unbalanced and had physics quirks that caused it to play a little choppy and messy (as opposed to Melee's physics quirks which were utilized to make the game more smooth and intense). Melee also had issues, mostly in the drastically unbalanced tier list. Project M, as I understand it, set out to resolve both those issues in order to create something the competitive community could enjoy (i.e, creating a mod 'to have fun' like you said), not to spit in the face of Sakurai. And it pretty objectively did. People who play it gnenerally have fun doing so. Most characters are equally viable. Nobody has infinite chaingrabs or zero-death jab locks or BS grab-release shenanigans. It is a mod designed to cater to the competitive interests over the more casual, but what's wrong with that? Nobody's forcing them to download the mod. I play PM, Smash 4, and Brawl even in my free time. Competitive, casual, doesn't matter. Play what you like. I mean. There's a limit to what I can say because obviously I don't know the PM devs personally. But none of them seem like truly spiteful people and the game doesn't feel like a project born out of spite.

That said, that isn't even really the issue here. PM was dropped due to limited resources. It seems like a fairly obvious pick to put limited resources towards an official game (not to say that PM isn't an unusually fantastic and wonderful mod--it is still a logical decision). For all of you throwing around terms like 'competitively inferior', it makes you sound super elitist and snobby and not representing the community in a good way at all.

Please chill.

 

[shapular]

Play smash bros 4 for a month and then go back to PM and come back to me.

Going back to PM after playing 3DS for a month was brtual.

Oh, and last time I did that this happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bODHIPjRh0c#t=128

 

[byebye]

I just know to keep PM alive for the fans, streaming it or hosting it at any big event could cause issues such as having the game taken down for good. Not trying to stir things up but I just want to clear the air that the decision isn't really ours to make otherwise I'd be up for hosting it.

I try to please as many people as I can with CEO and feature as much as I can without going overboard but for the most part it's something I'd rather not deal with worrying about it getting shut down right before the event happens and what not.

Maybe it's time to end the discussion. CEO already said their piece. I just want to repost some of the things they said. as apparently some people haven't read it based on the comments.

PM was not in CEO to avoid killing PM entirely. This move is for PM's benefit. so no one needs to get salty or anything.

 

[EpixAura]

Keep in mind that not every competitive Smasher plays only PM and/or Melee, nor are they the only two Smash games with followings. Smash 4 has been a great addition for me and everyone who wants to play it, and last time I checked, those of us that are competitive do constitute part of the "smash community".

Not that there really is a smash community. I thought it was known since Brawl that there isn't a real Smash community. Most people only care about their own games. EVO is going to be hilarious if Melee gets the ax.

On topic, it's a shame that PM is getting the shaft, but unfortunately, time constraints are real. Hopefully this cold shoulder isn't permanent.

My worry is that there's no reason it WON'T be permanent, unless either Smash 4 or PM go the same road Brawl did. One will have to get the cold shoulder

My problem is that I can disagree with the whole "They keep saying it's better but wont say why." I'll say why. Because ledge invincibility abuse is gone. Aggression is super rewarded now because shields break easier. You're rewarded for staying alive with the rage mode thing. Now that Ledge hogging is gone people actually have to put effort into killing people rather than just jump on the ledge and go trollface "I win!" Because that's boring. Not to mention how much faster it is than brawl, competitively. When it finishes coming into it's own it's really going to shine on it's own. That's what I believe. They just threw out the defense.

Invincibility abuse being gone is great, as it was even a problem in Melee, but simplifying the ledge game is not the right way to handle it. Just like in Brawl, far to many characters can make it back from the blastzone with no way for the opponent to even challenge their recovery, and now yet another option for dealing with that has been taken away. There should be more to most characters recovery than simply aiming at the ledge with barely any regard for the actual spacing of your move and grabbing the ledge for free. If you are offstage, you should be punished for it.
Aggression is barely rewarded any more than in Brawl. Shields actually degenerate much slower if you aren't being attacked, and powershields being so much easier offsets the fact that shields take more of an impact from hits. Not to mention the biggest problem of all regarding shields - that shield stun is borderline gone. More aggressive characters like Sheik (even with Sheik, a lot of her matchups actually involve outcamping the opponent, though), certainly are the excepiton, but there simply aren't enough characters like that. However, the biggest issue is rolling. This is a much stronger defensive option than anything we've seen in any Smash game, likely even moreso than the Brawl airdodge. Not only that, it's another example of how much the game has been simplified. Rolling should not be a viable movement option, but unfortunately, it is.
Lastly, Rage is not a good mechanic. It's an almost indescribably bad one. Saying it rewards someone for staying alive is the only good thing I could even attempt to say about it, and even if that statement is true, the game shouldn't be rewarding a player for doing what they should do in the first place. First, it's a mechanic that benefits the losing player. 9 times out of 10, if you're losing, you're simply being outplayed. I don't think I need to describe how rubberbanding has no place in what we are trying to consider a competitive game. Secondly, it's far too impactful. I've personally seen a lot of players lose as a result of this mechanic, when they clearly deserved to win.
That's it for my rant.

 

[Nessafile]

Seeing Project M being dropped out really makes my day.

Why did you get a warning for this?

 

[Nessafile]

on other news. SF5 will replace SF4 in major tournaments 2 years from now.

Tekken 7 will replace TTT2.

and Smash 4 will be replaced if not Smash 5, by 6 or 7 sometime in the future too.

Such is the truth in competitive FGs. Accept it, adapt and move on.
I can't see why there's so much issue with this.

Smash is sort of on and off with the FGC imo. besides, that mentality isn't already since Melee entrants are getting more then smash 4.

 

[GHNeko]

Why did you get a warning for this?

He probably got a warning because it's a pretty inflammatory comment.

Even if that's his honest opinion, coming into a thread to post ONLY something like that which is 0% constructive and adds nothing positive to the topic can only be labeled as a post meant to start some **** and piss people off.

Which is against the rules.

 

[RanserSSF4]

My worry is that there's no reason it WON'T be permanent, unless either Smash 4 or PM go the same road Brawl did. One will have to get the cold shoulder

Invincibility abuse being gone is great, as it was even a problem in Melee, but simplifying the ledge game is not the right way to handle it. Just like in Brawl, far to many characters can make it back from the blastzone with no way for the opponent to even challenge their recovery, and now yet another option for dealing with that has been taken away. There should be more to most characters recovery than simply aiming at the ledge with barely any regard for the actual spacing of your move and grabbing the ledge for free. If you are offstage, you should be punished for it.
Aggression is barely rewarded any more than in Brawl. Shields actually degenerate much slower if you aren't being attacked, and powershields being so much easier offsets the fact that shields take more of an impact from hits. Not to mention the biggest problem of all regarding shields - that shield stun is borderline gone. More aggressive characters like Sheik (even with Sheik, a lot of her matchups actually involve outcamping the opponent, though), certainly are the excepiton, but there simply aren't enough characters like that. However, the biggest issue is rolling. This is a much stronger defensive option than anything we've seen in any Smash game, likely even moreso than the Brawl airdodge. Not only that, it's another example of how much the game has been simplified. Rolling should not be a viable movement option, but unfortunately, it is.
Lastly, Rage is not a good mechanic. It's an almost indescribably bad one. Saying it rewards someone for staying alive is the only good thing I could even attempt to say about it, and even if that statement is true, the game shouldn't be rewarding a player for doing what they should do in the first place. First, it's a mechanic that benefits the losing player. 9 times out of 10, if you're losing, you're simply being outplayed. I don't think I need to describe how rubberbanding has no place in what we are trying to consider a competitive game. Secondly, it's far too impactful. I've personally seen a lot of players lose as a result of this mechanic, when they clearly deserved to win.
That's it for my rant.

as much as i like smash 4 competively, you do raise a good point when it mostly comes to the rage mechanic. Although it's nice that it rewards the player who's in the lead, it's also bad since it rewards the player who is losing. Granted, i have adapted to the roll habits, low shieldstun, and rage mechanic, but even than, it's still a problem. i felt the same way when i played injustice competively.

P.S. you forgot falcon, who is really good at applying aggressive pressure!

 

[Nessafile]

He probably got a warning because it's a pretty inflammatory comment.

Even if that's his honest opinion, coming into a thread to post ONLY something like that which is 0% constructive and adds nothing positive to the topic can only be labeled as a post meant to start some **** and piss people off.

Which is against the rules.

Makes enough sense, I was confused since it sorta looked like a serious opinion.

 

[byebye]

Smash is sort of on and off with the FGC imo. besides, that mentality isn't already since Melee entrants are getting more then smash 4.

please read the whole thread about this discussion. point being we are in esports. and in esports, don't expect specific games will last a lifetime. sooner or later, the newer versions of games will take over. so PM being gone / replaced is something that people should have expected. same with other competitive video games.

 

[Brim]

Project M is being dropped again...? Please don't tell me Nintendo did this one again.

 

[GHNeko]

please read the whole thread about this discussion. point being we are in esports. and in esports, don't expect specific games will last a lifetime. sooner or later, the newer versions of games will take over. so PM being gone / replaced is something that people should have expected. same with other competitive video games.

Smash in general is not officially esports.

Fighting games in general is not officially esports.

Fighting games are TRYING to become esports, so in tourneys where company sponsors are actually there, then because PM is a legal grey area, there is a fair reason as to why PM doesnt get featured in any official capacity.

Grassroots tourneys are not subject to this though.

So yeah.

we not esports bruh.

no matter how much you think we are lol.

 

[byebye]

Smash in general is not officially esports.

Fighting games in general is not officially esports.

Fighting games are TRYING to become esports, so in tourneys where company sponsors are actually there, then because PM is a legal grey area, there is a fair reason as to why PM doesnt get featured in any official capacity.

Grassroots tourneys are not subject to this though.

So yeah.

we not esports bruh.

no matter how much you think we are lol.

I put esports in there now, I've put FGC before, I've put competitive video games, or whatever. it's not the point. point is one should not expect any competitive game to last their lifetime, without being replaced by a newer version.

So yeah.

you not esports sis.

but PM is still not in CEO, not in Apex, not in Evo.

and it is understandable
and it is expected

 

[Auramaniji]

It isn't. I've only been playing for 5 months. It's just practice, man.



I'm 14. No Johns.


Why are you going to tournaments for casual play? Why are you on smashboards for casual play? There is casual melee, but don't go to a tournament for casual play.


It was made specifically to have a low skill cap. It wasn't made for competitive play.


It wouldn't. The competitive aspects of melee were completely optional. Melee was the last smash game that catered to both competitive and casual players.


Yes, they would. Just recently Hax is taking a hiatus. Mang0 apparently only has "1-2 years of fox left". However, new players are popping up all the time. There is a 14 year old Tink player (Lunchables) who 0-death'd Sethlon (PMDT, Roy player).


We're talking about PM here. I don't understand why you made this about melee.

Excuse me for my actions. I wasn't thinking as well as I should be.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I put esports in there now, I've put FGC before, I've put competitive video games, or whatever. it's not the point. point is one should not expect any competitive game to last their lifetime, without being replaced by a newer version.

So yeah.

you not esports sis.

but PM is still not in CEO, not in Apex, not in Evo.

and it is understandable
and it is expected

entirely facetious reply coming up:

There is no 'newer version' of PM yet. the newer version will be 4.0 when that comes out, and of course, it will replace 3.5.

There is however, a newer version of the vanilla games...

(Storms send that noone actually takes this reply seriously)

 

[Owlflame]

My worry is that there's no reason it WON'T be permanent, unless either Smash 4 or PM go the same road Brawl did. One will have to get the cold shoulder

Invincibility abuse being gone is great, as it was even a problem in Melee, but simplifying the ledge game is not the right way to handle it. Just like in Brawl, far to many characters can make it back from the blastzone with no way for the opponent to even challenge their recovery, and now yet another option for dealing with that has been taken away. There should be more to most characters recovery than simply aiming at the ledge with barely any regard for the actual spacing of your move and grabbing the ledge for free. If you are offstage, you should be punished for it.
Aggression is barely rewarded any more than in Brawl. Shields actually degenerate much slower if you aren't being attacked, and powershields being so much easier offsets the fact that shields take more of an impact from hits. Not to mention the biggest problem of all regarding shields - that shield stun is borderline gone. More aggressive characters like Sheik (even with Sheik, a lot of her matchups actually involve outcamping the opponent, though), certainly are the excepiton, but there simply aren't enough characters like that. However, the biggest issue is rolling. This is a much stronger defensive option than anything we've seen in any Smash game, likely even moreso than the Brawl airdodge. Not only that, it's another example of how much the game has been simplified. Rolling should not be a viable movement option, but unfortunately, it is.
Lastly, Rage is not a good mechanic. It's an almost indescribably bad one. Saying it rewards someone for staying alive is the only good thing I could even attempt to say about it, and even if that statement is true, the game shouldn't be rewarding a player for doing what they should do in the first place. First, it's a mechanic that benefits the losing player. 9 times out of 10, if you're losing, you're simply being outplayed. I don't think I need to describe how rubberbanding has no place in what we are trying to consider a competitive game. Secondly, it's far too impactful. I've personally seen a lot of players lose as a result of this mechanic, when they clearly deserved to win.
That's it for my rant.

How does it benefit the losing player? If you're losing your health should be resseting constantly because when you lose a stock it goes to 0%. Guess what. If I'm losing so hard my HP shouldn't be in the red for long enough to utilize the rage mechanic. I get it "Higher damage means you're getting hit a lot." Yeah, but it's also easier to die at higher percentages. Not to mention that higher percentages means that you're not dead yet, which is the second half of what you're opponent is supposed to be doing to you. It's not a comeback mechanic. I really don't know what to think. "I've personally seen a lot of players lose as a result of this mechanic when they clearly deserved to win." That actually made me laugh. Clearly if you lose you didn't deserve to win. You were supposed to kill your opponent before their rage got to be a threat and you clearly couldn't pull it off because of lack of skill. Again. It's not a comeback mechanic. I don't know what it is.

 

[hype machine]

Ra

How does it benefit the losing player? If you're losing your health should be resseting constantly because when you lose a stock it goes to 0%. Guess what. If I'm losing so hard my HP shouldn't be in the red for long enough to utilize the rage mechanic. I get it "Higher damage means you're getting hit a lot." Yeah, but it's also easier to die at higher percentages. Not to mention that higher percentages means that you're not dead yet, which is the second half of what you're opponent is supposed to be doing to you. It's not a comeback mechanic. I really don't know what to think. "I've personally seen a lot of players lose as a result of this mechanic when they clearly deserved to win." That actually made me laugh. Clearly if you lose you didn't deserve to win. You were supposed to kill your opponent before their rage got to be a threat and you clearly couldn't pull it off because of lack of skill. Again. It's not a comeback mechanic. I don't know what it is.

Rage effect is ********. It's definitely a comeback mechanic or should I say a handicap mechanic for bad players.
It's also very hard to kill before the rage mode starts to take effect especially when the opponent has good DI. For example a diddy kong in rage mode can kill at 70% with downthrow + u air combo. How is that fair?

 

[LimitCrown]

Ra


Rage effect is ********. It's definitely a comeback mechanic or should I say a handicap mechanic for bad players.
It's also very hard to kill before the rage mode starts to take effect especially when the opponent has good DI. For example a diddy kong in rage mode can kill at 70% with downthrow + u air combo. How is that fair?

That would mainly be a problem with Diddy Kong.

 

[Banjodorf]

Looking through the comments, I just want to know why people feel it's important for them to say things like "Seeing PM dropped makes my day." or any of that ****.

I get that humans are naturally spiteful (or so you'd think) but it honestly just only serves to splinter a community further that's been going strong for well over a decade.

I don't care which game you play, and you shouldn't care what anyone else plays either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd be lying if I care that it got dropped, but I kinda don't since PM has never been that good with me.

I'll be honest there, I really don't care for mods of smash more so when it mods a game in directions I don't agree with. It sucks for the people who play it but really with it being a mod it was going to happen at larger events at some point if Nintendo got involved.

I'm sorry it got dropped, but I'm more happy Smash 4 is there.

 

[Leland527]

The problem is that so many people see us as the "Smash community," and TO's don't want to only run games for the "Smash community." We aren't a community anymore. Smash 4 made sure of that. Smash 4 is hurting both PM and Melee as a game, and plenty of the members of the Smash 4 community and Melee/PM community are arguing over their games.
If Nintendo had released Smash 4 with the same type of promotion they've done for their past games, this wouldn't be a problem. Instead, they pretending to listen to our complaints about Brawl and the early versions of Smash 4. They invited primarily top level Melee players to the Smash 4 invitational at E3. They implied this game would be the middle ground we wanted, and while that would create tension among Smash fans, it would be fine.
But that isn't what happened. Smash 4 is not the middle ground, but the blatant exposure Smash 4 has gotten has made people believe it is. I legitimately believe that if Smash 4 had been released without pretending to care about the competitive community, it would've gone the same path as Brawl, but much, much sooner. I've seen far to many people say it has "fixed all of Brawl's problems," but never once have a seen any of them bother to elaborate.
Ever since Smash 4 came out, we haven't been the "Smash community" anymore, just like what happened with Brawl. In the last couple of years, when Melee and PM were the 2 main games for Smash by far, we were a community. The games coexisted, and as one grew, the other grew. Sure, there were some tensions between fans of the two games, but nothing serious. On the other hand, Smash 4 is clearly hurting the growth of PM, and even Melee fans are lashing out at it.
I'm glad CEO is giving a reason for their decision, and it's certainly understandable given that Smash 4 is the new game. However, exactly how long is it going to stay 'new?' This isn't a one time thing. Smash 4 is hurting the community because Nintendo couldn't stick by their word. They've already decided to stop doing balance patches in a metagame that you don't need to a research team to help you realize one character is dominating the rest of the cast.

Sorry for my admittedly biased rant. I could go back and make it seem neutral, but I simply don't want to. I'm legitimately upset, and I'd like that to be known. I'm already fighting the urge to explain each and every thing I dislike about Smash 4 as a competitive game. All bias aside though, it's hard to argue against the statement that the "Smash community" is no longer one community, and that Smash 4 has dealt a serious blow to it rather than helping it.

This is literally the greatest/most true thing I have ever read. I am a PM player and sm4sh, basically a brawl clone with less work put into it (Look at the subspace emissary and argue with me) and it is hurting PM more than anything because, rightfully so, TO's are worried about nintendo shutting them down.

 

[RanserSSF4]

This is literally the greatest/most true thing I have ever read. I am a PM player and sm4sh, basically a brawl clone with less work put into it (Look at the subspace emissary and argue with me) and it is hurting PM more than anything because, rightfully so, TO's are worried about nintendo shutting them down.

Smash 4 isn't hurting PM IMO. PM and Melee still get as much views and most of the time more than Smash 4 in live streams!

 

[Leland527]

separation has been in this community since brawl. smash 4 did not do anything And yeah lots of competive players do like it. any ''blow'' the smash community is taking is by people flipping there **** about some tournys. last time i recall the smash 64 community was not throwing out death threats for not being at the come up. its great to have passion for ur game but litterally all ur doing is making a half ***** excuse to why the smash community has been in shreads for the past 7 years. simply by saying ''smash 4 exist and i dont like it.''

Unlike brawl smash 4 rewards agression and pressure. if you dont like the way u have to play so be it but dont be pinning people who actually like the game into a corner by saying smash 4 is destroying our community and crap. all your doing is contibuting to this so called segregation.

I only have a response to one thing in your reply: "Unlike brawl smash 4 rewards aggression and pressure." This is unequivocally untrue and any smash bros player will agree. In Smash 4 every offensive input is 10 frames + landing/ending lag while the defensive inputs are frame 1.

 

[Leland527]

Smash 4 isn't hurting PM IMO. PM and Melee still get as much views and most of the time more than Smash 4 in live streams!

As much as I would love this to be true, it isnt, and Smash 4 is killing PM. As a result of the support nintendo has given TO's are scared of Nintendo shutting down there tournament or that nintendo will shut down PM completely which is a completely legitamate concern but sadly is really hurting the PM community

 

[RanserSSF4]

I only have a response to one thing in your reply: "Unlike brawl smash 4 rewards aggression and pressure." This is unequivocally untrue and any smash bros player will agree. In Smash 4 every offensive input is 10 frames + landing/ending lag while the defensive inputs are frame 1.

you can make aggression work in Smash 4 compared to Brawl, it's just not very easy to do. Falcon (my main) and Sheik, can go all aggressive and pressure you to death and it definitely works!

 

[Leland527]

you can make aggression work in Smash 4 compared to Brawl, it's just not very easy to do. Falcon (my main) and Sheik, can go all aggressive and pressure you to death and it definitely works!

Haha I would love that and i have really tried (In PM I play a hyper aggressive wolf and people have told me that my biggest problem in tournaments is that I play overly aggressive) I really just don't see it. A good reference is a lot of people have been complaining about G&W's up b in PM 3.5 and that it comes out on frame 1 and is a combo breaker but in Sm4sh air dodging is the same, comes out frame 1 and has no setbacks.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Haha I would love that and i have really tried (In PM I play a hyper aggressive wolf and people have told me that my biggest problem in tournaments is that I play overly aggressive) I really just don't see it. A good reference is a lot of people have been complaining about G&W's up b in PM 3.5 and that it comes out on frame 1 and is a combo breaker but in Sm4sh air dodging is the same, comes out frame 1 and has no setbacks.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You can make it work, but like I said, it's very difficult to do in Smash 4. I play all aggressive in Smash 4 with Falcon and it helped me win lots of matches, and no, this is not from For Glory mode. I got lots of practice from good smash 4 players on SmashBoards. If I lose a match, it's mostly because of a mistake I made, not because of the game itself. The only times I'm forced to play defensive with Falcon is against a bad MU, but lets be honest, this happens in every smash game and fighting game in general. Best example of this is Zangief from street fighter: Great rushdown and aggressive character, but has lots of bad MU's against zoners, forcing him to play defensively while still applying that pressure. I don't have a major problem if you hate Smash 4, but I'm just saying you can make aggressive play work, it's just very difficult!

 

[Leland527]

I'm not saying you're wrong. You can make it work, but like I said, it's very difficult to do in Smash 4. I play all aggressive in Smash 4 with Falcon and it helped me win lots of matches, and no, this is not from For Glory mode. I got lots of practice from good smash 4 players on SmashBoards. If I lose a match, it's mostly because of a mistake I made, not because of the game itself. The only times I'm forced to play defensive with Falcon is against a bad MU, but lets be honest, this happens in every smash game and fighting game in general. Best example of this is Zangief from street fighter: Great rushdown and aggressive character, but has lots of bad MU's against zoners, forcing him to play defensively while still applying that pressure. I don't have a major problem if you hate Smash 4, but I'm just saying you can make aggressive play work, it's just very difficult!

I really don't "hate" smash 4 I just think I enjoy Project M and Melee a lot more just because the overall speed of the game is faster and there are more approach options. I always feel like I am in quicksand in smash 4, confined to one spot whereas in Melee/PM I feel like I can get anywhere exceedingly fast. Additionally I play fox in Melee and I rarely find that I ever need to let up pressure and laser camp (again this is to a fault) and in PM I literally never give up pressure, like I just feel free to do anything and don't feel limited by the game at all.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I really don't "hate" smash 4 I just think I enjoy Project M and Melee a lot more just because the overall speed of the game is faster and there are more approach options. I always feel like I am in quicksand in smash 4, confined to one spot whereas in Melee/PM I feel like I can get anywhere exceedingly fast. Additionally I play fox in Melee and I rarely find that I ever need to let up pressure and laser camp (again this is to a fault) and in PM I literally never give up pressure, like I just feel free to do anything and don't feel limited by the game at all.

My apologies! I thought you didn't like Smash 4. I do agree with your point though. As much as I like Smash 4 competitively compared to Brawl, I still prefer PM and Melee more just because it's a little faster, gives you more options, and is more fun to play and watch, even though I don't think Melee is perfect like many claim it is when it has flaws, such as balancing issues!

However, we do have Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity mode in Smash 4. It's so fun to play and watch!

 

[Slaudial]

You're rewarded for staying alive with the rage mode thing

Damn I know right just like how in Street Fighter you're rewarded with an Ultra that does half life if you can stay alive long enough to use it or Level 3 X-Factor in Marvel

Goddamn that's one way of looking at comeback factors
"You silly billy they aren't actually things given to the player getting their ass beat! They are just getting rewarded with these things if they stay alive long enough to use them! Just like Lucario's Aura!11!!11!"