Melee Will Return For CEO 2015, Project M Dropped, Smash 4 Likely

[RanserSSF4]

I'm saying that there's still not gonna be enough hitstun for guaranteed follow-ups. 3 hit strings just don't cut it for me.

From the way you're posting, it sounds like you're trying to persuade Melee players to play Smash 4. Btw, I'm not a Smash Bros. fan, not even casually. Competitive Melee is the only reason I'm playing a Smash Bros. title. You play the games you enjoy, and I'll play mine.

I'm not persuading Melee players to move on to Smash 4 and play. I'm just suggesting this for them to try it out themselves. I do agree with your last sentence though!

 

[-Dubs]

I'm not persuading Melee players to move on to Smash 4 and play. I'm just suggesting this for them to try it out themselves. I do agree with your last sentence though!

Believe me, lots of Melee players tried. I've played it and personally would rather play 64 with Hyrule banned (R.I.P. tent combos) than Smash 4.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Believe me, lots of Melee players tried. I've played it and personally would rather play 64 with Hyrule banned (R.I.P. tent combos) than Smash 4.

I am talking about Smooth Lander Heavy Gravity, not the main game itself. I know most of the Melee community don't like Smash 4 just because it's not Melee.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gonna be honest, doesn't really say much considering how low Brawl set the bar on that one and Sm4sh is still a game that heavily favors defense more than offense with the exception of a few characters like Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Cpt. Falcon.

You pretty much named the top 3 character which number 4 is sonic.

You're trying to tell me the game is as defensive as brawl then just ignore, oh wait sorry all these character good right now can pressure shields are fast and have combo games.

Not like the defensive aspects are bad for characters like Megaman or duck hunt dig to have.

Smash 4 has actual character diversity in design which is something Melee and PM really badly needed.

 

[-Dubs]

I know most of the Melee community don't like Smash 4 just because it's not Melee.

That's where you're wrong. I don't like Smash 4 because its different?
No. I don't like it because I believe it's WORSE. It it was different and BETTER IMO, I would happily switch.

 

[RanserSSF4]

That's where you're wrong. I don't like Smash 4 because its different?
No. I don't like it because I believe it's WORSE. It it was different and BETTER IMO, I would happily switch.

That's fine if you don't like Smash 4, but I think it's a better competitive game than Brawl, but it will never be up to the levels of Melee and PM. Go ahead and disagree with me all you want, but I know DJ Nintendo and Hungrybox like the game.

 

[-Dubs]

That's fine if you don't like Smash 4, but I think it's a better competitive game than Brawl, but it will never be up to the levels of Melee and PM. Go ahead and disagree with me all you want, but I know DJ Nintendo and Hungrybox like the game.

Of course players like HBox and M2K, etc. are fine with Smash 4. Why? Their playstyle. I'm seeing a trend of slow/campy players playing Smash 4. Which is okay, because everyone has their own preferred method of playing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I feel like I am the only person who thinks smash 4 is objectively better because it doesn't promote bad game design PM repeats just cause.

Based on the comments no one really looks at it without rise tinted glasses either way.

Of course players like HBox and M2K, etc. are fine with Smash 4. Why? Their playstyle. I'm seeing a trend of slow/campy players playing Smash 4. Which is okay, because everyone has their own preferred method of playing.

Chillindude? Hax?

I could go on.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Of course players like HBox and M2K, etc. are fine with Smash 4. Why? Their playstyle. I'm seeing a trend of slow/campy players playing Smash 4. Which is okay, because everyone has their own preferred method of playing.

Although I do agree when it comes to the campy part to some extent, you can make aggressive play work in Smash 4 compared to Brawl, but it's very difficult to pull off. One of the characters I think that can accomplish that is Captain Falcon (My main). The only times he's forced to play defensively is against a bad MU, but that's always been the case in every smash game and fighting game. Best example is Zangief; Good mix-ups and up-close pressure, but has so many bad MU's, he's forced to play defensively!

 

[-Dubs]

Although I do agree when it comes to the campy part to some extent, you can make aggressive play work in Smash 4 compared to Brawl, but it's very difficult to pull off. One of the characters I think that can accomplish that is Captain Falcon (My main). The only times he's forced to play defensively is against a bad MU, but that's always been the case in every smash game and fighting game. Best example is Zangief; Good mix-ups and up-close pressure, but has so many bad MU's, he's forced to play defensively!

So what happens after you approach and win the neutral? You get one hit and bam, back to neutral.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So what happens after you approach and win the neutral? You get one hit and bam, back to neutral.

Move and character dependent.

Some aren't about combos and some want to stay in neutral as long as possible.

 

[RanserSSF4]

So what happens after you approach and win the neutral? You get one hit and bam, back to neutral.

Not really, I continue the pressure after a combo with Uairs until they go off-stage and I go for the off-stage kill, regardless if it's a bad MU or not. I've been playing 3 stocks 8 minutes with other members and they end in like 3 and a half minutes or less. The only 2 times I'm forced to play neutral is if I'm in a bad position or if the MU is really bad for Falcon!

 

[-Dubs]

I feel like I am the only person who thinks smash 4 is objectively better because it doesn't promote bad game design PM repeats just cause.

Based on the comments no one really looks at it without rise tinted glasses either way.


Chillindude? Hax?

I could go on.

Pretty sure Hax was "trying" the game. If he's not satisfied with Falcon in Melee, what makes you think he'll go to Smash 4 Falcon?

Explain how Melee/PM is bad game design. L-cancelling was in the 64 manual, and wavedashing is not a glitch. Real glitches in Melee are either not practical or don't greatly affect competitive play.

 

[-Dubs]

Not really, I continue the pressure after a combo with Uairs until they go off-stage and I go for the off-stage kill, regardless if it's a bad MU or not. I've been playing 3 stocks 8 minutes with other members and they end in like 3 and a half minutes or less. The only 2 times I'm forced to play neutral is if I'm in a bad position or if the MU is really bad for Falcon!

So 2 uair strings? Cool. Not gonna continue this conversation because all you're doing is talking Smash 4 up.

 

[RanserSSF4]

So 2 uair strings? Cool. Not gonna continue this conversation because all you're doing is talking Smash 4 up.

EDIT: Sorry double post

Okay Bye dude and no, WAY MORE than 2 Uair strings!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty sure Hax was "trying" the game. If he's not satisfied with Falcon in Melee, what makes you think he'll go to Smash 4 Falcon?

Explain how Melee/PM is bad game design. L-cancelling was in the 64 manual, and wavedashing is not a glitch. Real glitches in Melee are either not practical or don't greatly affect competitive play.

He played but he tried to play Melee Falcon instead of trying to learn how to rush down differently.

L-canceling being in the manual doesn't matter.

It's a terrible mechanic and Melee and PM are both worse games because they don't just preset landing lag. It's bad game design because it lacks real choice and good interaction.

Melee ruins controllers way fast than any other game and is a real problem with inputs pro level players have even said. You need a pristine brand new control to be pro at Melee, if not you lose cause your control didn't get an input right.

Character design in Melee is decent at best, PM following suite isn't helping and created the giant problem child that was 3.0. Smash 4 recovers too good? Play PM, and watch as some characters off literally zero interaction with edgeguarding even in 3.5.

Smash 4 offers real choice and interaction, when customs are on this goes up. A large stage list, a wide range of characters, a tournament mode coming in a future patch for online. The best single player mode for the casual player.

I really think it is the best game by far.

 

[platomaker]

A lot of comments regarding Sm4sh dying down after the hype fades... isn't that what most people are doing with PM? Sure there are updates, but I know a few people who dropped the game for smash4 and I'm sure everyone reading this comment can think of 1 person who has as well.

So what's the beef against Smash 4? Also as mentioned before, it feels like this is 2008 all over again. The game is different from melee, true, but expectations shouldn't be anything close to melee after seeing brawl. Some of the "flaws of brawl" I (almost due to lack of writer's elaboration) read in comments seemed to be mistaken design choices- if its in two games (brawl and smash 4) its not a mistake at this point- it really is designed that way.

But I'm rambling here. Bottomline: PM being dropped from tournaments for lack of resources, funding, etc. Its understandable- the developers don't get paid for a free game, they won't be financially backing major tournaments like Nintendo could in the future.

Smash 4 has a future, people talk about balance issues, but every 2-3 weeks there seems to be a new top tier. Where was Diddy when we had teleporting yoshis and wectoring?

 

[-Dubs]

He played but he tried to play Melee Falcon instead of trying to learn how to rush down differently.

L-canceling being in the manual doesn't matter.

It's a terrible mechanic and Melee and PM are both worse games because they don't just preset landing lag. It's bad game design because it lacks real choice and good interaction.

Melee ruins controllers way fast than any other game and is a real problem with inputs pro level players have even said. You need a pristine brand new control to be pro at Melee, if not you lose cause your control didn't get an input right.

Character design in Melee is decent at best, PM following suite isn't helping and created the giant problem child that was 3.0. Smash 4 recovers too good? Play PM, and watch as some characters off literally zero interaction with edgeguarding even in 3.5.

Smash 4 offers real choice and interaction, when customs are on this goes up. A large stage list, a wide range of characters, a tournament mode coming in a future patch for online. The best single player mode for the casual player.

I really think it is the best game by far.

Forget about L-cancelling as pressing a button to cancel lag. Is the cancelling of lag itself a bad mechanic?

So what if Melee Fox ruins controllers faster than any other game? Does that make the game itself bad? No.

Character design in Melee is pretty good. Of course there is a top tier, but the top 4 characters arguably check each other. Yes, PM 3.02 was a problem child, which is why characters were nerfed across the board in 3.5. Yes, recoveries in PM are still a flaw.

Large stage list? PM. Wide range of characters? Most competitive players use around 3 characters.

I really think Smash 4 is the best game by far (casually).

 

[platomaker]

Because smash bros 4 wasn't made for the competitive community.

I've noticed a lot of people saying "SF and Tekken move on to the new game, just learn to adapt" it isn't the fact that we can't "adapt" it's because every official smash game after melee hasn't had competitive elements. Brawl/4 were designed to have a low skill ceiling. Smash has always been the black sheep of the FGC, even when we have our best at the forefront. Having Brawl/4 represent ourselves is showing us at our worst.

PM took a less competitive game and made it competitive. It's a love letter to the competitive community. That's why people are making a big deal. This amazing game is being pushed aside by a lesser game.

"hasn't had competitve elements" after melee? What do you mean the two smash games haven't had competitive elements?

 

[platomaker]

I bolded the list items I thought were legit.

Its funny how a lot of people, A LOT of people keep saying there's no edgeguard in smash 4. It's there, just takes more effort this time and its more an active tactic rather than a passive one.

 

[-Dubs]

"hasn't had competitve elements" after melee? What do you mean the two smash games haven't had competitive elements?

The poster was saying that
1) Smash 4 lacks depth
2) Melee, the spectator sport, isn't earning the FGC's respect.

So if Melee doesn't cut it for the FGC, how can Smash 4 be received any better?

 

[LimitCrown]

I would like to see an explanation for why people think that Smash 4 lacks depth.

 

[fraggle]

I think that the mechanic of L canceling is just as nuanced as using ariels in smash 4 when you land. there are moves that are punishable on shield even when you L cancel them..same way that there are ariels in Smash 4 that are easy to punish and some that are hard because of the few frames. L canceling in 64 was crazy because there was no lag...in melee and pm there is a little lag depending on the move but there are still very few moves where you have the advantage hitting them on shield.

 

[platomaker]

Can you not reply in the quote? Your replies don't show up when I try to reply.



They probably didn't, but Sakurai and team didn't have to remove it. As a game in general, Brawl did fine even with the terrible mechanic. Regardless, the reasons for its removal are irrelevant. It was a change for the better as far as competitive play is concerned.



This is incorrect. Edge hogging has been removed. However, there is nothing stopping players from jumping offstage to intercept people trying to recover. Is it harder to edge guard since you can't edgehog? Yes. Is it impossible? Not in the slightest.

Spoiler

I used Mario, Luigi, Falco, and Sonic the most, but top tier has the most obvious changes. I wasn't an expert on the other guys, but these changes are apparent.

ICs: They are gone, but the problem they presented, grab infinites, was globally removed.

Olimar: in Brawl, he could invalidate some characters with his grab, pivot grab, side b, smash attacks alone. His grab had amazing range with low cooldown, and his Usmash and Fsmash followed suit. With red and purple pikmin, he wasn't short on KO power, and with blues and yellows, throws were extra painful and he could have massive disjoints on his moves. Side B was a fast projectile move that tacked on % easily, and required the opponent to attack to remove the pikmin, which Olimar could then punish. On the downside, his recovery was a tether, extremely easily gimped.

In Smash 4, his grab, pivot grab and smashes all have more cooldown making them more easily punished. His maximum Pikmin group is 3, inherently limiting his capability to outcamp characters with side B. His up B was revamped into the winged pikmin, giving him a much more reliable recovery.

Diddy: with a banana in hand and one on the ground, it was nearly impossible to approach this character safely in Brawl. Smash 4 reduced his banana limit to 1, made it disappear on hit (removing his banana locks), removed its transcendent priority, and made it disappear after two throws.

Marth: in Brawl, he could invalidate characters with his fair alone. In smash 4, most of his moveset was slowed down to compensate for the range he has on most of the cast. He can't mindlessly wall anymore to keep characters out.

Falco: Smash 4 nerfed his lasers into the ground, because they realized how powerful a fullscreen, transcendent, auto cancelling projectile was. His Dthrow CG was removed. His near instant Dair was slowed down. His jab 1 and 2 were slowed down and given more endlag so that his boxing game wouldn't be so ridiculous. His phantasm was also nerfed so that his instant air one wouldn't be near lagless.

Mario: Bottom tier in brawl, but helped immensely by hitstun mechanic changes. His FLUDD was buffed by being made transcendent, meaning that characters can no longer attack the water to mitigate the push. He Usmash was also made a bit more reliable for getting KOs.

Sonic: his biggest problem in brawl was lack of reliable KO options. Smash 4 fixed this by giving him two throws that KO reliably, and now the character is a top 10 contender.

Luigi: had huge difficulty approaching in Brawl. He is helped immensely from projectiles being slowed down and given more lag across the board. His cyclone hits were made more reliable and given more KO power, and his fireball is faster to help him deal with projectile spam.

Yoshi: The character can jump out of shield in SSB4, something he couldn't do in any other smash game sans PM.

Ness: a big one that jumps out is that his PK Thunder is invulnerable right after he fires it, making gimping him much more difficult.

There's more, but that should get the gist across.

The patch also buffed Luigi to be a serious threat, gave Pac Man's Usmash some end lag so he couldn't spam it for free, made it more rewarding to KO Rosalina's Luma, and made Shulk a serious contender, among other things. We can go back and forth on the +/- of each change, but the point is that the team is ( Was ) trying to balance the game.



No it shouldn't. As I said, For Glory is not perfect. The important part is that it is a mode specifically for fights with no items so you can test your skills. It's still a gift for people that take the game seriously or want to get better.



Ok.



Unfortunately, yes, but it's still progress towards making the defensive options more punishable.



Yes. What casual player is going to care about the mechanics that I mentioned? I think they're clearly intended for the people that take the game seriously.



You should stop saying "the community" and say "melee community" and "PM community" because it's clear that you don't care for anything Smash 4 is doing in a positive sense and don't acknowledge/value its community. There are plenty of people that play Smash 4 competitively and enjoy it, and it's insulting that you're insinuating that Smash 4 (and its community by extension) is only a problem because it appears to be hurting Melee and PM, but I guess it makes sense because there is no real "smash" community. Ideas like this are why this divide exists in the first place.

Well said, the community was divided since brawl. (I don't know anyone who refused to move onto melee from n64). The "community" kept insinuating that "competitive elements" don't exist in either brawl or Smash 4, but aside from a few techs- what else is lost? Mindless muscle memory tactics where only the first hit matters and then the rest is just like rehearsal? Had some melee friends try smash 4 the other day and get immediately frustrated that their tactics don't work, "why can't I be immediately awesome at this brand new game? Its so defensive".

 

[fraggle]

i can understand not liking other smash games if you play one seriously. I wondered for a long time why 64 players didn't move on, i think its the same reason melee players didn't move on and i think it comes down to situations where a player is weak,

Take 64 for example, your weak in shield/if you get hit because of crazy hit stun/with you r back to the ledge/off of the stage

in melee your not nearly as weak in shield but your still weak off stage and with your back to the ledge and if you get hit

in pm your weak when you get hit/when your back is to the ledge/when your off stage

in brawl there were even less places where your weak

in smash 4 your weak in similar places to pm but not as weak at this point in the meta game.

I think to say a smash game doesn't have depth or doesn't have good game design shows a lack of understanding of the nuances of a game and is a bold and probably ignorant claim

 

[platomaker]

Oh hey look. Another major event running an inferior competitive game that I won't be attending.

splintered community. Sakurai was right about smash not existing if it were made catered to people like you and emptysky.

 

[-Dubs]

But aside from a few techs- what else is lost? Mindless muscle memory tactics where only the first hit matters and then the rest is just like rehearsal?

Melee combos are never the same unless you DI the same every time.

But aside from a few techs- what else is lost?

Lack of L-cancelling + little hitstun = no combo potential, and therefore terrrible risk/reward ratio when approaching
Lack of wavedashing/landing = no platform movement, way less options while comboing or in the neutral, less space able to be covered
Lack of proper dash-dancing = less space able to be covered, character cannot move wherever it wants whenever it wants horizontally
Lack of momentum carrying into jumps = less space able to be covered, offensive approaches are weaker
Lack of fast-falling speed/heavy gravity = slower transition from ground to air and back, camping w/ floaties is more viable

A combination of all of these techs allows players to do whatever the **** they want with their character. Having absolute freedom of movement is what Melee players lose when playing Brawl or Smash 4.

 

[platomaker]

You're speaking about the vocal minority. You also misunderstand the true reason and depth behind why a good amount of people from other communities aren't really for smash4. I think it's amazing with all the character diversity and beautful graphics. The problem is that the game is SO much different than any other iterations. The physics, speed, and knockback growth as well combos are all so different. I don't care to adjust since everything feels so different in terms of endingstocks as well as not feeling as in control ofmy character as pm/melee.

The way you need to play is completely different from melee/pm so you cant blame them. Until you've tried to master all the AT's and learned their perspective you really shouldn't give them so much flack.

It's also not about "moving forward to new things". People in the hardcore melee/pm scene value different things to make a game worthwhile. They value competitive viability and many agree (even the melee/pm players that enjoy smash4) that smash4 doesnt have the depth to achieve the longevity it needs to be competitively viable in the competitive scene compared to melee/pm; It's not just character diversity and pretty graphics that appeal to people, it's all depth, balance, and gameplay more than anything.

The majority of players in both melee and PM that don't play the game probably tried smash4, didnt like it, and then silently went back to spending time on whatever game they were doing before. There are still a lot of people that play smash4 that play both PM/melee still. PM is very new to lots of players and still has lots of room for development/growth.

Don't have the depth?... um.. depth compared to that 14 year old game? or the mod of the 6 year old game that was completely handed by fans to appeal to those who are in love with the 14 year old game?

I don't hate melee, i just like to angle my smash attacks
I don't have PM, I just like Megaman better.

 

[platomaker]

a very well made mod that is more popular then brawl ever was

Now that's a very big opinion, I'm sure it might hold water on this or many other smash websites, but how do you know that every brawl users liked or even used PM? There are some users on this site who still don't know what that is for crying out loud.

 

[-Dubs]

Don't have the depth?... um.. depth compared to that 14 year old game? or the mod of the 6 year old game that was completely handed by fans to appeal to those who are in love with the 14 year old game?

I don't hate melee, i just like to angle my smash attacks
I don't have PM, I just like Megaman better.

Age has nothing to do with how good a game is.

Also, you can angle your Smash attacks in Melee.
So you're biased towards Smash 4 because it has Megaman.

What you're telling me is that you know nothing about Melee or competitive Smash in general. I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole but come on... learn a thing or two before questioning others' opinions.

 

[Morbi]

Most of these comments are just Smash 4 v Project M responses, I suppose that illuminates just how diverse of a community we are. I do not necessarily interpret this as a Smash 4 or Project M situation (or at least that aspect of the argument is not entirely relevant), obviously, at its heart it is; however, one could expect CEO to discontinue Project M given the release of a new title and the desire to acquire a sponsorship. I believe that the real problem is still APEX. A Smash dedicated tournament series dropping one of the more well-received Smash games for that Nintendo money is despicable given that Project M essentially exists as an indirect result of Nintendo's utter negligence. The Smash community is self-made for the most part, it is unfortunate to see the support of that decision yet more opposition to this decision.

This decision, it was out of the hands of the Smash community. There was nothing we could do and everyone competent saw it coming from a mile away. APEX, that is what sets the most startling precedent.

 

[platomaker]

Melee combos are never the same unless you DI the same every time.

But aside from a few techs- what else is lost?

Lack of L-cancelling + little hitstun = no combo potential, and therefore terrrible risk/reward ratio when approaching
Lack of wavedashing/landing = no platform movement, way less options while comboing or in the neutral, less space able to be covered
Lack of proper dash-dancing = less space able to be covered, character cannot move wherever it wants whenever it wants horizontally
Lack of momentum carrying into jumps = less space able to be covered, offensive approaches are weaker
Lack of fast-falling speed/heavy gravity = slower transition from ground to air and back, camping w/ floaties is more viable

A combination of all of these techs allows players to do whatever the **** they want with their character. Having absolute freedom of movement is what Melee players lose when playing Brawl or Smash 4.

Its a long response so here it goes:

The wave dash goes without saying since the developer went out of their way to remove it in brawl- in short- that ain't coming back. That was the technique I had in mind when I said "aside from a few". Anything that spawns from L-canceling to the ground at an angle, yeah besides that.

Hit stun, I always had a problem with the idea that even after being hit I stay hit for a loooooong time...until I went back to Smash 64, Melee's hit stun (and false combos) kinda bummed me out since it was only the first hit that really mattered. Like a game of checkers with only one or two pieces (depending on which character you used).

Dash dancing is something a lot of people bring up, yeah you couldn't do that in brawl or smash 4 but you could just space out your opponent with projectiles or attacks rather than wait for them to screw up. Maybe my opinion is skewed on this, but the idea behind this was that if you're fighting then you're already 'not safe'. There are still DIFFERENT ways to approach and ways to counter that- and in turn- counter that counter. You can't just rev up, blast off, and take someone out unless you completely dominate whatever they had in store for you to begin with. Brawl and Smash 4 relies more on mindgames in that sense since barreling through people is less of an option.

The last point you made, if its really that big a deal you can set that up in smash 4 and make that a standard for tournaments. It is possible to get "melee-like" physics in game. Most people don't since they just adapt to fighting.

 

[platomaker]

Age has nothing to do with how good a game is.

Also, you can angle your Smash attacks in Melee.
So you're biased towards Smash 4 because it has Megaman.

What you're telling me is that you know nothing about Melee or competitive Smash in general. I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole but come on... learn a thing or two before questioning others' opinions.

I don't think you can angle your smash attacks in melee, captain falcon's elbow is one clear example that comes to mind. Even if you could do it with some characters, more characters can in brawl/smash4.
Learn a thing or two before questioning other's opinions, eh? You going to CEO this year? If so, for Smash 4 or PM?

 

[-Dubs]

Its a long response so here it goes:

The wave dash goes without saying since the developer went out of their way to remove it in brawl- in short- that ain't coming back. That was the technique I had in mind when I said "aside from a few". Anything that spawns from L-canceling to the ground at an angle, yeah besides that.

Hit stun, I always had a problem with the idea that even after being hit I stay hit for a loooooong time...until I went back to Smash 64, Melee's hit stun (and false combos) kinda bummed me out since it was only the first hit that really mattered. Like a game of checkers with only one or two pieces (depending on which character you used).

Dash dancing is something a lot of people bring up, yeah you couldn't do that in brawl or smash 4 but you could just space out your opponent with projectiles or attacks rather than wait for them to screw up. Maybe my opinion is skewed on this, but the idea behind this was that if you're fighting then you're already 'not safe'. There are still DIFFERENT ways to approach and ways to counter that- and in turn- counter that counter. You can't just rev up, blast off, and take someone out unless you completely dominate whatever they had in store for you to begin with. Brawl and Smash 4 relies more on mindgames in that sense since barreling through people is less of an option.

The last point you made, if its really that big a deal you can set that up in smash 4 and make that a standard for tournaments. It is possible to get "melee-like" physics in game. Most people don't since they just adapt to fighting.

They removed Melee airdodge, which allows for more defensive options. Removing the airdodge removed wavedashing.

64 has way more hitstun than Melee. There is no DI in 64 so combos are always the same. Melee is different, as it has DI.

You don't understand how much more characters can move with dash dancing combined with wavedashing.

What makes you think Melee players don't emphasize mindgames? What makes you think we can just press buttons and win?

No, the Smash 4 engine restricts movement options. To get Melee-like physics, you would have to mod the game. Again, you don't understand Melee at all.

 

[platomaker]

Someone just explain to me why any of this bickering over semantics matters. So what if it's a mod, does that somehow mean we're not allowed to enjoy it? What's the point you're trying to make?

I think the point some people are saying is that its subject to the community's bias on how the game should run. Each iteration is based on feedback so how one user commented on how the latest update was "project nerf", other users didn't quite agree with him. Get it? If the game keeps changing how are people going to discover anything with the characters they use, especially if those results may soon vary?

That could just be my two cents on the matter- I may be alone in thinking this.

 

[-Dubs]

I don't think you can angle your smash attacks in melee, captain falcon's elbow is one clear example that comes to mind. Even if you could do it with some characters, more characters can in brawl/smash4.
Learn a thing or two before questioning other's opinions, eh? You going to CEO this year? If so, for Smash 4 or PM?

CEO is not hosting PM. Yes, Falcon can angle his smash attack and forward tilt in Melee. If you have that little techskill and knowledge of the game, you probably would get four-stocked or even JV5'd by anyone who posted in this thread. Jussayin'.

 

[platomaker]

They removed Melee airdodge, which allows for more defensive options. Removing the airdodge removed wavedashing.

64 has way more hitstun than Melee. There is no DI in 64 so combos are always the same. Melee is different, as it has DI.

You don't understand how much more characters can move with dash dancing combined with wavedashing.

What makes you think Melee players don't emphasize mindgames? What makes you think we can just press buttons and win?

No, the Smash 4 engine restricts movement options. To get Melee-like physics, you would have to mod the game. Again, you don't understand Melee at all.

You know, for argument sake, let's say you're right. and these are the things I'm implying: That melee didn't have mindgames, that certain tactics are not escapable with every character, that all characters aren't viable.

That all these statements are wrong.
Now that that's out of the way, back to my original statement: You have to play Smash 4 and brawl differently, even when "competitive elements" were removed does that mean the game isn't competitive? Is there no more depth to explore? Remember, that was the original question, not lamblasting melee or PM- that people who write off Smash 4 based on Melee/PM expectations? On what basis?

 

[platomaker]

The poster was saying that
1) Smash 4 lacks depth
2) Melee, the spectator sport, isn't earning the FGC's respect.

So if Melee doesn't cut it for the FGC, how can Smash 4 be received any better?

That last line is actually a fair point, Now that brawl came and went (it might still linger in some shape or form) we can look back onto some tournament footage and look for the hype, what brought in viewers? You yourself mentioned you only picked up smash for melee and don't care much for any other game. You might be a good judge: whatever brawl match you find the least bit entertaining might well serve as an example of where all the hype went.

Personally, for brawl and melee, seeing the same characters really killed it for me. Both games and their exploits just weren't too fun to watch.

 

[platomaker]

CEO is not hosting PM. Yes, Falcon can angle his smash attack and forward tilt in Melee. If you have that little techskill and knowledge of the game, you probably would get four-stocked or even JV5'd by anyone who posted in this thread. Jussayin'.

Don't know who that is, I swear this sounds like it was from a thread from 2008 again. Did I already say this? If so it was probably back in 2008.
for reference: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Falcon_(SSB)

though you are correct, it's been years since I played melee so maybe I could be wrong. This wiki says captain falcon can angle his tilts (you know the thing I didn't mention but you brought up anyway) but no mention of his forward smash. Again, both this Wiki and I could be wrong about that- my point remained the same from before. You keep bringing up melee and ignore my original point. If you have anything more to add to the discussion, please at least mention my original point since that's the discussion at hand. No need for derailments.

 

[-Dubs]

Don't know who that is, I swear this sounds like it was from a thread from 2008 again. Did I already say this? If so it was probably back in 2008.
for reference: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Falcon_(SSB)

though you are correct, it's been years since I played melee so maybe I could be wrong. This wiki says captain falcon can angle his tilts (you know the thing I didn't mention but you brought up anyway) but no mention of his forward smash. Again, both this Wiki and I could be wrong about that- my point remained the same from before. You keep bringing up melee and ignore my original point. If you have anything more to add to the discussion, please at least mention my original point since that's the discussion at hand. No need for derailments.

Sorry, I should've specified which smash attack, although the forward smashes and tilts are the ones that can be angled. Yes, I can confirm this as I and many others have a pocket Falcon for funzies.

As for your original question, Sakurai has made both Brawl and Smash 4 "less competitive" by changing or taking away Melee's mechanics. He also mentioned that he believed Melee was his best work, but that he wanted "everyone to win", and therefore lowered both the skill floor and ceiling. However, that doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't play Brawl or Smash 4 competitvely.