Melee = Fury for 64

[Blue Yoshi]

Probably not doable by puff then. She always teleports off the stage facing away from the stage, no matter where I start it from.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

luigi and falcon can do it easier than the rest of the cast

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's not that hard with fox but yeah its really easy with falcon/luigi

I rarely pivot-edgehog online, due to not having a very sensitive stick making the spacing harder than I need it to be.

I'm obsessed with dash-pivots in general though. Obsessed, just play me online and watch how much I do it, you'd think my capt falcon would get dizzy and fall over LOL

 

[Daedatheus]

You just run towards the stage and flick the control stick back at a certain point so you turn around and slide onto the edge.

Also, remember to FASTFALL into the ledge as soon as you fall off the edge facing inwards toward the stage. This will make the edgehogging instant, otherwise you might just fall away from the stage.

It's super easy to do with Luigi because his dash pivot makes him slide backwards a lot so your spacing near the edge doesn't have to be perfect.

 

[Lawrencelot]

Smash 64 has ONE player who no one, including slanty-eyed people can beat consistently.

Yes, this may be because we have a smaller pool of skilled/talented players but there are people like Boom, Alancitu, Prince, etc who try realllly hard to be good at this game and STILL don't have a chance to be #1

Melee was more back and forth and from the looks of it, a good two dozen players (APROXIMATLY) or so reached the top top top level, examples : Mew2king, Ken, Mango, You know who belongs here.

So if a bunch of people have "capped off" so to speak for melee's metagame, hasn't melee already reached it's ultimate metagame? admitedly I think melee can still be pushed a LITTLE further, but I think ssb64's competitive scene can be pushed further if only people spent more time on it. Very, VERY few competitive ssb64 players today are anywhere close to the top level.

So far for ssb64 only Isai has reached the ultimate level so in terms of depth and what it takes to win consistently no one really knows how far this game can go, but a comparison between a player like Superboom who not many of us have a hope in hell of beating in a tournament, and isai does support my point.

Melee does have more techniques and all that but ssb64 has different techniques, it's a VERY different game.

A very debatable topic indeed, I don't really want to argue or say that I'm right because it's pretty subjective, however ssb64 has a considerable ammount of depth. More than some of you give it credit for.

No, the melee metagame can still be upgraded a lot. Watch European players like Armada and Amsah, especially at the most recent European tournaments you'll see melee is still evolving and probably at a much faster pace than smash64, although the pace has to do with the amount of players and tournaments.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

That's cool to hear, I guess Brawl didn't do what Sakurai wanted it to do (destroy competitive smash)

I just dont play melee, you really have to make time to play it seriously I did for like 2 years a good ammount of hours a week, now im lucky to get 30 minutes in to play every 3 days, but obviously there are more important things...

Smash64 can be pushed SOOO much further though, new people are playing and stuff and online is still running strong so I think that the ssb64 metagame is on the up and up although it's progressing slowly.

Still, why can't anyone else reach the level Isai has? Redundant question but it really bugs me, because in melee a lot of people are so good that they all have a chance in a tournament.

Better question : If the ssb64 scene had been as big as the melee scene, would we see more pro players with the incentive of cash prizes? For example, if alancitu/boomfan/prince/isai/etc played together often, they're all incredibly talented and can all probably be even better then they are now! (Scary thought)

Unfortunatly we gotta travel all over the place to play small ssb64 venues, and it aint gonna change. I really like this game much better than melee though I started with it when it came out and I'm still hooked.

The only real thing I miss about melee, is playing Captain Falcon. I haven't knee'd in ages

 

[SheerMadness]

Still, why can't anyone else reach the level Isai has? Redundant question but it really bugs me, because in melee a lot of people are so good that they all have a chance in a tournament.

Thats not really true for melee. All the huge national melee tourneys have always been dominated by a select few players. The melee scene has always had a clear cut top 1-3 players who always dominate the scene. Mango and M2K have won pritty much every big national melee tourney over hte past 2 years. Outside of those two there might be a couple players who have a legit shot at winning a national tourney like PC/Shiz/Chu etc.

Simply put, if the smash 64 scene had the pure #'s the melee scene had over hte past 6-7 years Isai would have a hell of a lot more competition.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

That's what I would figure, bigger tournaments, more people playing vs actual people, more people honing their skills, more competition.

At least in melee you had the reign of ken, but then some m2k mango sh** happened.

 

[NixxxoN]

I think SSB64 is more based on experience than pure flashy skill. You can have a lot of experience and play without being flashy... you only need to know what to do in each situation to win. In melee thats different... You need basically beastly skills to win, not only experience. Melee skills are very difficult to get and to mantain.
I think Isai is untouchable in 64 because besides his skills has an unbelievable amount of experience, and including a lot of experience against other top players.

 

[Erj]

Never played Melee that much tbh. I don't even own a GC or Melee. It was 64, wait for about 6 years. Then Brawl for me xD. Thats why I use tap jump, I really don't believe in button jumping xD

 

[KevinM]

So your argument on why 64 is deeper then Melee Dylan is because Isai dominates this game and there are multiple competitors at the top of Melee this proving Melee is stagnant or nearing the top of its metagame?

Get this man into smash debaters quick.

 

[Fireblaster]

So your argument on why 64 is deeper then Melee Dylan is because Isai dominates this game and there are multiple competitors at the top of Melee this proving Melee is stagnant or nearing the top of its metagame?

Get this man into smash debaters quick.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It doesn't need to be debated. It's an opinion and I don't really care if anyone else supports it.

My opinion? Melee isn't close to as good as smash64. The only thing better is the knee (Yes kevin, and bowser )

I mean, the rapetent people. The rapetent is the ****.

 

[Superstar]

Melee or 64 being deeper isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Melee is deeper than 64, at least in the application of overall skill.

Rest is an opinion. Which I agree with.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Kevin, will all due respect for your fancy red name and reputation here, I found your post sarcastic, arrogant, and worst of all patronizing.

My opinion though you may disagree with it is still valid. No one here except malva plays REAL ssb64, so naturally he would be the only person who knows how far it goes. Watch him play, he knows something that we don't. If we ask him what it is, he'll just call us dum and tell us to play for fun. Which is my motto, play for fun, and I find ssb64 the most fun.

I didnt mean to imply my opinion for ssb64 vs melee was a fact. It is not a fact. I still believe ssb64 is deeper, but needs a wayyy bigger following. Which is a hypothetical situation that will never happen.

So just for that you insult my intelligence with your sarcasm and invite me to the debate room why? because you believe based on my opinions for a video game that I have no skill debating issues?

That is what you discuss right? World issues, moral issues... etc? Because "debating" smash itself would be sad, honnestly. Discussion, fine. Debate no, not for a video game.

In anycase I dont have time for the debate room, but just because you disagree with me here, doesn't mean your pseudo-intellectual friends would paint me into a corner in a different debate, believe me.

I dunno what happened, either you're joking with me, or you're an arrogant prick now. I hope it's not the latter since I thought you were really cool.

Peace XKevinX

 

[KevinM]

I was merely poking fun at your logic, no need for the wall of text brah.

 

[Skrlx]

I was merely poking fun at your logic, no need for the wall of text brah.

i've been trying to join debaters for a long time let those lazy admins to at least read my pm messages <_<

 

[MattNF]

Kevin, will all due respect for your fancy red name and reputation here, I found your post sarcastic, arrogant, and worst of all patronizing.

My opinion though you may disagree with it is still valid. No one here except malva plays REAL ssb64, so naturally he would be the only person who knows how far it goes. Watch him play, he knows something that we don't. If we ask him what it is, he'll just call us dum and tell us to play for fun. Which is my motto, play for fun, and I find ssb64 the most fun.

I didnt mean to imply my opinion for ssb64 vs melee was a fact. It is not a fact. I still believe ssb64 is deeper, but needs a wayyy bigger following. Which is a hypothetical situation that will never happen.

So just for that you insult my intelligence with your sarcasm and invite me to the debate room why? because you believe based on my opinions for a video game that I have no skill debating issues?

That is what you discuss right? World issues, moral issues... etc? Because "debating" smash itself would be sad, honnestly. Discussion, fine. Debate no, not for a video game.

In anycase I dont have time for the debate room, but just because you disagree with me here, doesn't mean your pseudo-intellectual friends would paint me into a corner in a different debate, believe me.

I dunno what happened, either you're joking with me, or you're an arrogant prick now. I hope it's not the latter since I thought you were really cool.

Peace XKevinX

cool story bro

ur opinion is wrong btw

lol

 

[Sensei]

64 is a real man's game, *****es.

Melee is deeper though <_<

(falcon hugs dylan)

 

[SheerMadness]

I love ssb64. A few things about it just really piss me off.

Like when pikachus and kirbies uptilt me 6 times and theres basically not a **** thing I can do. Or when captain falcon upsmashes me twice and upairs me 4 times. Or Pikachu forward smashing my fox from the ledge when I'm recovering. All that is way too hard to espcape and takes way too little skill.

Whenever I lose in melee its always either because I played poorly or simply got outplayed. I don't always feel that way for ssb64 which makes me think melee is the better competitive game.

 

[killa k]

i dun get how a simple thread sayin how it feels playin ssb64 after melee lead to which game is deeper O_o.

 

[ismokeherbz]

I love ssb64. A few things about it just really piss me off.

Like when pikachus and kirbies uptilt me 6 times and theres basically not a **** thing I can do. Or when captain falcon upsmashes me twice and upairs me 4 times. Or Pikachu forward smashing my fox from the ledge when I'm recovering. All that is way too hard to espcape and takes way too little skill..

Don't get hit?

no disrespect ^^ easier said than done...

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

ah **** all of you there's no point in this. It's like you're all waiting to put one up on eachother or something.

I'm stayin away from this hostile thread, I hope it gets closed.

Clearly super smash brothers games should be discussed individually... Or this happens.

Well let's just all agree that Brawl is the worst of the 3 and be friends. Peace.

 

[Daedatheus]

I'm stayin away from this hostile thread, I hope it gets closed.

There's nothing hostile about this, you know that it's a generally, more widely-held view that Melee is deeper than 64, and you likely know all the reasons why people have that opinion too.

Well let's just all agree that Brawl is the worst of the 3 and be friends. Peace.

"All the cool kids could never agree on what was the coolest, but we could always agree on what wasn't cool."

Forget where I heard something like that, but it's true for everything, be it music, vidjagames, etc.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

smash 64 has better sound effects

 

[Zen Yore]

I'm stayin away from this hostile thread, I hope it gets closed.

dont say things like that

smash 64 has better sound effects

o
seems like ur back


this topic was originally created for speaking about the different values of Melee and 64
thanks to the trolls for changing the thread's fate

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I thought the original point was to say that playing melee helps you personally have better reflexes/mindgames in ssb64, and if anyone else had the same correlations.

From what most people say if you switch between the two usually you have to warm up and get used to the slower speed of ssb64, or the faster speed of melee.

Goddamit though i still find a lot of the advanced techs in ssb64 harder than *most* advanced techs in melee, remember I used to play melee a lot so Im not talkin outta my *** here.

 

[Daedatheus]

Goddamit though i still find a lot of the advanced techs in ssb64 harder than *most* advanced techs in melee, remember I used to play melee a lot so Im not talkin outta my *** here.

What specifically do you find harder? Me = curious.

 

[MattNF]

Goddamit though i still find a lot of the advanced techs in ssb64 harder than *most* advanced techs in melee, remember I used to play melee a lot so Im not talkin outta my *** here.

I can't think of anything in SSB64 that's harder than something in Melee

 

[craiigg]

lol dylan you're not the only one here who plays competitive melee..i know alot of 64 players that do
melee is my main game, 64 second.
i dont know how the hell you can try and say 64 is deeper because tech wise, and mindgames wise it isn't and it's a fact

and there are no techs in 64 that are harder? z-cancel = l-cancel in melee..
pivots in melee are harder, shield drops in melee are harder

melee has an abundance of techs that are 'hard', (reverse thunders, SH shine bair combo, multimoonwalks) i only find them easy from practice..
..whereas 64 barely has any

from what i've seen you're the only one that's been hostile, and been trying overly hard to prove your points..
no offence but i think you're waffling on and causing meaningless discussion :S

 

[ballin4life]

lol dylan you're not the only one here who plays competitive melee..i know alot of 64 players that do
melee is my main game, 64 second.
i dont know how the hell you can try and say 64 is deeper because tech wise, and mindgames wise it isn't and it's a fact

and there are no techs in 64 that are harder? z-cancel = l-cancel in melee..
pivots in melee are harder, shield drops in melee are harder

melee has an abundance of techs that are 'hard', (reverse thunders, SH shine bair combo, multimoonwalks) i only find them easy from practice..
..whereas 64 barely has any

from what i've seen you're the only one that's been hostile, and been trying overly hard to prove your points..
no offence but i think you're waffling on and causing meaningless discussion :S

Pivots being harder in melee is not a good thing.

 

[MattNF]

Pivots being harder in melee is not a good thing.

In a way, it's a good thing. It helps weed out the noobs from the pros.

 

[killa k]

weed

thats bad sir.

Spoiler

ur right tho.

 

[ballin4life]

In a way, it's a good thing. It helps weed out the noobs from the pros.

Having ridiculous one frame timing for something that could be simpler (like it is in 64) makes the game worse.

Sirlin wrote some good articles about making Street Fighter 2 HD Remix where he points out how he specifically tried to make move inputs easier so that beginners could do them more easily. http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-design-overview.html

For example, I think that both 64 and melee are worse for having z/l canceling. If all moves were automatically z canceled, it would eliminate a stupid tech skill barrier to actually playing the fun part of the game (this assumes that it is always better to z cancel than to not z cancel but whatever). As it is, any noob will have to spend at least a bit of time practicing to z cancel everything (which is boring) before they even have a chance.

These kinds of things should be reduced if possible, since usually having to spend time practicing tech skill is uninteresting. Sirlin uses the example of normal chess vs chess where you have to juggle while playing. Tech skill will always be important in fighting games, there's no need to make it more important than it has to be.

 

[killa k]

Just play brawl then if u dont like techs like z/l cancelling. Also dont continue to brawl from wut i sed...plz. It'll just lead to sumthin bad.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

technical ability isn't depth wtf

 

[ballin4life]

Brawl sucks.

I said L/Z cancelling should be automatic, not that air attacks should lag every time.

 

[MattNF]

thats bad sir.

O RLY?

Having ridiculous one frame timing for something that could be simpler (like it is in 64) makes the game worse.

Sirlin wrote some good articles about making Street Fighter 2 HD Remix where he points out how he specifically tried to make move inputs easier so that beginners could do them more easily. http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-design-overview.html

For example, I think that both 64 and melee are worse for having z/l canceling. If all moves were automatically z canceled, it would eliminate a stupid tech skill barrier to actually playing the fun part of the game (this assumes that it is always better to z cancel than to not z cancel but whatever). As it is, any noob will have to spend at least a bit of time practicing to z cancel everything (which is boring) before they even have a chance.

These kinds of things should be reduced if possible, since usually having to spend time practicing tech skill is uninteresting. Sirlin uses the example of normal chess vs chess where you have to juggle while playing. Tech skill will always be important in fighting games, there's no need to make it more important than it has to be.

So basically you want to make it easier for bad players to win against good players?

Z/L-canceling takes, maybe, a day to learn. If you don't like it, go play Brawl.

It's also not required that you learn ATs, they just supplement your current abilities. For example, you could play Falcon in Melee really good without Moonwalking, but if you learned how to moonwalk it would give you more options and mindgames. It would be still possible for someone who doesn't Z cancel to beat someone who does.

As it is, any noob will have to spend at least a bit of time practicing to z cancel everything (which is boring) before they even have a chance.

You mean a noob actually has to practice a game to get good at it?! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE SOMEONE REMOVE Z CANCELING IMMEDIATELY

 

[ballin4life]

I want to make it easier for less technically skilled players to win. Having more tech skill is always an advantage, but the real advantage should come from mindgames, strategy, knowledge of the game etc. Tech skill should be helpful, but not required (as you said). I think that right now there are a few things that are technically difficult for no reason and should be made easier.

Are you arguing that smash would be a worse game if everything was auto z canceled? Because it would make little difference to any of us, and a lot of difference to the noobs. It's better for noobs to have to practice more interesting stuff like mindgames, combos etc.

Also, care to address the chess+juggling example?

 

[Daedatheus]

For example, I think that both 64 and melee are worse for having z/l canceling. If all moves were automatically z canceled, it would eliminate a stupid tech skill barrier to actually playing the fun part of the game

Obviously you've never played anyone good in Melee, because even l-cancelling is part of the competetive aspect. Ever dropped a SHFFL on someone's shield with say, Fox, and you follow it up with a shine except wait - you just got shieldgrabbed! How? Turns out your opponent was holding their shield up towards the sky so you would hit it early, messing with your l-cancel timing, making you miss a cancel and punishing you with a grab.

And in 64. Ever tried drill to rest with Jiggly? At higher percents it's nice when you DON'T z-cancel and it makes them pop up slightly so you can rest them. How about missing a z-cancel with Kirby's dair resulting in your opponent being unable to grab you? How about the mindgames available from purposefully missing cancels with good spacing?

All these things add a depth of some kind. However I don't want to equate technical skill with depth, rather I want to display the uses apart from a "barrier of skill" that most people call these parts of the game.