Melee = Fury for 64

[ballin4life]

I said that I was assuming that z canceling is always better, which isn't always true. Yeah there are some edge cases... but at the least it should be you press z to not z cancel or something.

Yeah and I don't claim to be good at melee or anything. I only play melee super casually when I can't find people to play 64 with (which is far too often, sadly). I'm just making some general observations.

I'm not saying melee or 64 are bad games (I like them both), just that there are some things that are unecessarily technical.

 

[Daedatheus]

I'm not saying melee or 64 are bad games (I like them both), just that there are some things that are unecessarily technical.

Yeah I don't mean to disagree with you entirely. But of course apart from z/l-cancelling, we have to keep in mind that most of the technical stuff in these games was NOT thought of by the developers of the games, so naturally they are often going to be strangely technical because they are exploits and abuses and glitches etc. that people have found and put to good competetive use.

 

[Moocow007]

being good shouldn't be about what game has harder inputs, it's all about out thinking your opponents duh. hard inputs dont make a game more fun

 

[Fireblaster]

being good shouldn't be about what game has harder inputs, it's all about out thinking your opponents duh. hard inputs dont make a game more fun

Exactly. I don't get why you people think that making zcancelling automatic is such a horrible thing that would bring ssb64 down to the level of Barlw. It's understandable when things NECESSARILY have to be hard to input, like ridiculous DJC combos, shine jabs, etc.

Also, that example about the shield moving to make opponent screw up the Lcancel, it's still unnecessary. It still is just a matter of having a unnecessarily harder timing input for a decision that's pretty much automatic (You ALWAYS want to Lcancel).

And in 64. Ever tried drill to rest with Jiggly? At higher percents it's nice when you DON'T z-cancel and it makes them pop up slightly so you can rest them. How about missing a z-cancel with Kirby's dair resulting in your opponent being unable to grab you? How about the mindgames available from purposefully missing cancels with good spacing?

With jiggly its ALWAYS best to Zcancel. There's no point in making them pop up when you get landing lag. And with kirby, missing a zcancel to avoid getting grabbed is just stupid. What if they were planning to dsmash or usmash? Not to mention most people will just grab twice and they'll get you on the 2nd grab.

Face it, cancelling is just an arbitrary button input that just makes everything slightly harder for no reason other than to make it harder for newbs.

 

[Daedatheus]

And with kirby, missing a zcancel to avoid getting grabbed is just stupid. What if they were planning to dsmash or usmash? Not to mention most people will just grab twice and they'll get you on the 2nd grab.

I didn't mean to imply that you would do that on purpose since grabbing is so spammable in 64, just that it makes you have to think about your options vs. kirby more carefully

 

[Blue Yoshi]

It is sometimes better to not l-cancel as puff. Most of the time, it is better to l-cancel, but there are times that purposefully missing l-cancels makes certain moves easier. Then again, it's also personal preference as well. I can't name any specific times off the top of my head, but in a match, I will use it by instinct.

Actually, one use for not l-cancelling with puff is when sand-bagging. At around 200-600% (approximately), not l-cancelling a down-air sends them high enough for you to combo it into another down-air, and you can continue this indefinitely until they fly too far. In an actual match, this is completely pointless, but there are other instances where not l-cancelling is better.

 

[Fireblaster]

I didn't mean to imply that you would do that on purpose since grabbing is so spammable in 64, just that it makes you have to think about your options vs. kirby more carefully

So Kirby should get advantages from messing up zcancels while others should suffer from it?

It is sometimes better to not l-cancel as puff. Most of the time, it is better to l-cancel, but there are times that purposefully missing l-cancels makes certain moves easier. Then again, it's also personal preference as well. I can't name any specific times off the top of my head, but in a match, I will use it by instinct.

It is NEVER better to not zcancel with puff, EVER. On solid ground it's far better to cancel the lag and combo into something else. So the only situation in which it would be plausible to miss the zcancel would be if you're gonna land on a platform while Dairing the opponent who's off the platform in the air, and even THEN it's just better to continue with a platform dropped Dair.

Actually, one use for not l-cancelling with puff is when sand-bagging.

...

Oh come on now. These are the reasons you guys come up with? We need to have this unnecessary barrier of technical skill just so one character can have the option to duck in his Dair lag and so another one can do an extra "pop" on her dair? Seems like a pretty crappy trade.

 

[KevinM]

I'd like to point out that no L canceling should most certainly not be automatic in Melee, falco and Fox would DOMINATE so badly.

most of the game against them is varying your shield to mess with their timing and punish out of shield from there.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Agreed ^^

Also I find that when playing fox, playing against good opponents who vary with their shields makes it hard, especially when fox and falco are combo'd across the screen by everyone.

I guess my final remark about the depth of both games is that we all got a bit sidetracked with techniques. It's true that melee has more techniques, and an abundance of obscure incredibly difficult techniques that make more things possible...

But if you base it all on tech skill then some other games would be "Deeper" than melee, which I disagree with since Smash has the most depth of any fighter I've played...

To me I guess Depth is about the community and how long it takes / how much effort you have to put in to get good. To me personally, getting better at ssb64 was a challenge, especially when online a lot of players can still 4-5 stock me easily... It didn't stop me from taking a step back and trying to figure out more characters and strategies with em, and now instead of only playing Falcon in competitive ssb64 I can play at least half the cast decently...

In melee I never got to be great at it, but I got what I consider "good" or "average" which is all I ammount to now despite being pretty good I like to be humble about my skills, I dont suck but Im not great there.

Long story short, I got "average" at melee faster than with ssb64 which I have played since it came out. I guess this is where my opinion comes from, and as you can see it's clearly biased so I wouldn't argue for it.

 

[ballin4life]

I'd like to point out that no L canceling should most certainly not be automatic in Melee, falco and Fox would DOMINATE so badly.

most of the game against them is varying your shield to mess with their timing and punish out of shield from there.

I'm talking from a design perspective. There is no way that the developers were like "Hmm... you know what we need to nerf fox and falco... l canceling!" (not to mention that would be a dumb way to nerf them anyway).

And yes I know that the developers probably didn't care at all about balance and it just turned out fairly balanced. But still, them purposely implementing l canceling was a dumb decision because of the arbitrary tech barrier.

 

[KevinM]

I agree with that but with how the characters were created, if they made it automatic at this stage it would break the game.

Glad to see we're on the same page, I was just sticking to close to the example.

 

[Daedatheus]

Oh come on now. These are the reasons you guys come up with?

Wtf you put my name on a quote that isn't actually mine ("Actually, one use for not l-cancelling with puff is when sand-bagging." I never said that)

Other than that, your points are good and I think I agree with you more or less entirely now, in smash64's case.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I like Daedatheus's point about the mindgames of "missing" a cancel.

If you know how long the lag is relative to your opponent, how he will react, and how to counter-react to that.. ie "baiting" your opponent. It's not a great idea really, but it's the little things like that that separate analytic competitive players (players who read you like a book and proceed to **** you in any given game, chess, smash, etc) and less-observant players, or scrubs if you will, who look too much at the surface.

I guess what makes smash a great game is the ammount of possibilities in different given situations, total mobility, improvised combos based on DI...

Smash 64 and Melee both have an incredible ammount of depth. Z or L cancelling shouldn't be automatic. Punishing missed cancels is part of smash.

 

[ballin4life]

Honestly, how often do pros miss cancels?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

It is NEVER better to not zcancel with puff, EVER. On solid ground it's far better to cancel the lag and combo into something else. So the only situation in which it would be plausible to miss the zcancel would be if you're gonna land on a platform while Dairing the opponent who's off the platform in the air, and even THEN it's just better to continue with a platform dropped Dair.

not Z canceling jiggly's dair is probably one of the best things you can do. If you're coming down with a dair and hit with it and not Z cancel, it gives you a bit more time to setup some other move or grab, but if the opponent if shielding you should Z cancel. You can also do non Z canceled dair for edgeguard and make them pop up from it sometimes if they DI up so you can just downsmash for an easy setup or they just fall and die.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

the puff non l-cancel sandbagging was posted by me, and I did say it had absolutely no use in an actual match. But in seriousness, not l-cancelling puff's dair is better more often than not. Play puff a bit, trying both, and you'll find times where not l-cancelling is better. No point flaming everyone because they disagree with you and say there exists a few examples where not l-cancelling is better. Just think of it as we both have different playstyles and ideas, and leave it at that.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Honestly, how often do pros miss cancels?

0 to 3 times per match approximately... out of hundreds of successful cancels of course, it does happen, yes even to isai, and I've seen tigerbombz punish him harshly for it in their matches...

 

[Fireblaster]

You guys are still not convincing. One situation with one char in 64 does not justify everyone else having to press an arbitrary button to cancel lag.

Same for melee with fox and falco. Fox and falco being too good is the game's problem with balance, and slightly weakening those two doesn't justify everyone else being forced to Lcancel either.