Melee and ssb4.

[Kink-Link5]

I agree L-canceling could be implemented better, like Meteor Canceling, where pressing Shield cancels lag from the point from which you execute the L-cancel regardless of how late, but it's still a stretch to call the input arbitrary. If L-canceling is arbitrary, then so is Meteor Canceling and Recovering. There is only a perceived difference because L-Canceling happens quickly and for every aerial while Recovering happens over a longer period of time.

Arbitrary opinionated gimmicks

 

[Big-Cat]

I agree L-canceling could be implemented better, like Meteor Canceling, where pressing Shield cancels lag from the point from which you execute the L-cancel regardless of how late, but it's still a stretch to call the input arbitrary. If L-canceling is arbitrary, then so is Meteor Canceling and Recovering. There is only a perceived difference because L-Canceling happens quickly and for every aerial while Recovering happens over a longer period of time.

Arbitrary opinionated gimmicks

To me, something is an arbitrary barrier if it's the better tactic 90% of the time. As you said though, these kind of things should've been implemented better where using another option might be better. Things like requiring a cost for L-Canceling would've been something.

It kind of reminds me of teching in SF4. From my experiences, you would almost always tech upon being knocked to the ground when applicable save for situations where you could be chipped to death. This is kind of why I like it where in SFxTK, despite the game's flaws, attempted to address this. If a soft knockdown (techable) was allowed, you had the option to tech on landing, take the knockdown and wakeup there, backdash on wakeup, or roll forward. Each way could be countered with proper reading/guessing and even you guess right, you still have the high-low-mixup (though this is another layer of Yomi, but I digress).

 

[Shadow Huan]

hey there's something melee doesn't really have

Yomi

it's got really weak Yomi but no true mindgames, it's much more reaction heavy

 

[Kink-Link5]

... The **** is Yomi?

 

[Shadow Huan]

yomi is a FGC term for mindgames

stance characters are generally very Yomi based.

in comparison, Melee has weak Yomi

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee is 50% mindgames. Almost every move in the game comes out faster than human reaction time.

The other 50% is playing safe and campy and homo.

 

[Big-Cat]

Melee is 50% mindgames. Almost every move in the game comes out faster than human reaction time.

The other 50% is playing safe and campy and homo.

As an example, in comparison to other fighting games, you don't have much of a high-low-throw game in Smash unless your shield gets smaller. Things like conditioning the opponent to block high then go for a low - or make them think you'll go for a low because of said conditioning is a prime example of a mind game.

There's also the lack of a tech throw in any of the Smash games, another mindgame tool.

Though, since I didn't play competitive Smash, could you provide me some examples of Melee mindgames?

 

[Shadow Huan]

As an example, in comparison to other fighting games, you don't have much of a high-low-throw game in Smash unless your shield gets smaller. Things like conditioning the opponent to block high then go for a low - or make them think you'll go for a low because of said conditioning is a prime example of a mind game.

There's also the lack of a tech throw in any of the Smash games, another mindgame tool.

Though, since I didn't play competitive Smash, could you provide me some examples of Melee mindgames?

exactly, i was gonna post something similar but you put it better than i would've lol.

in fighting games as well, you can do something wrong on purpose, several times in row sometimes, then do it right, (or not at all) as a mindgame.

stance characters can enter a stance and either do an attack, change the stance, or cancel the stance and do nothing

in competitive melee, doing something wrong on purpose will get you punished and killed, esp if you're fighting a spacie or one of the other top/high tier characters.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Smash's entire approach game is based on faking an reading how the opponent is going to counter your counters in order to successfully get in. Follow ups are also dependent on opponent DI, which for tight combos can make them a matter of guessing correctly how the opponent is going to DI, rather than just reacting to their DI. Mindgames are hard in Smash, but they're absolutely essential to going in on the opponent. The mixups are not as heavy when at close range compared to most fighters, but they are definitely a huge part of the offensive game.

Comparatively, most fighting games have no/linear movement games.

 

[Shadow Huan]

what you described is really quick footsies, which is why the mindgames based off of that are weak lol

not that you're incorrect

 

[JOE!]

I lose stock on account of that 10 percent. I deserve to for making that mistake. It's so weird that you suggest there be reward for someone missing a cancel. There isn't a strategical reason to mistime a punish is there? Same concept.

Not miss a cancel, a reward for choosing not to cancel, there's a difference. For example, you could choose not to L-cancel in order to gain a landing hitbox, or choose to L-cancel to just be faster. Either option could have it's use.

 

[Kink-Link5]

what you described is really quick footsies, which is why the mindgames based off of that are weak lol

not that you're incorrect

Dash Dancing and baiting are hardly footsies.

God you're condescending.


There are plenty of reasons not to L-Cancel. For some characters, a SH Non-FF aerial will auto-cancel for example, for a slightly slower, but safer spacing option when using the aerial. For others, their landing lag animation has their hurtboxes/character model bent low to the ground or retracted in a way that they can avoid some attacks.

It isn't Black and White what you want to do because Smash's entire game is analog instead of digital like most fighters.

 

[Big-Cat]

Dash Dancing and baiting are hardly footsies.

Um, yes those are footsies.

 

[Shadow Huan]

didn't mean for it to sound condescending sorry :/

EDIT:

Um, yes those are footsies.

ninja'd

smash doesn't have much in the way of traditional mindgames tho, due to how differently it is designed, lol

 

[Kink-Link5]

Definition of traditional mindgames is pretty silly if it's "high/low, 50/50, 2/3, mixups" and nothing else. The entire game is about walking slowly so of course the game's depth comes from using attacks from standing still in a way to fake out the opponent into blocking incorrectly.

They lack the ability to move and navigate quickly while setting up spacing like, well, KoF, or airdash fighters, or Arcana Heart, or 3D fighters, or nearly everything else in almost every other fighter. If anything it's Capcom Fighters that lack mindgames when approaching because there is such little movement in the first place.

 

[Shadow Huan]

i was talking about 3d fighters myself actually lol

i personally don't care too much for Blazblue, Street Fighter, MvC or the like (although Blazblue is a riot to watch)

 

[Big-Cat]

Definition of traditional mindgames is pretty silly if it's "high/low, 50/50, 2/3, mixups" and nothing else. The entire game is about walking slowly so of course the game's depth comes from using attacks from standing still in a way to fake out the opponent into blocking incorrectly.

They lack the ability to move and navigate quickly while setting up spacing like, well, KoF, or airdash fighters, or Arcana Heart, or 3D fighters, or nearly everything else in almost every other fighter. If anything it's Capcom Fighters that lack mindgames when approaching because there is such little movement in the first place.

I only used Capcom fighters as a basic example because most of those will show up in all fighting games.

On the topic of mobility, yes SF greatly lacks it outside of a few characters. Which is why I played Fuerte in that game. Otherwise, I have more interest in Tekken, Virtua Fighter, Skullgirls, and Guilty Gear now.

 

[Vkrm]

I've always felt that mindgames constitute a majority of player skill. Lol at smash not having mindgames, haven't you ever been forward smashed by falco after he wavelands? The high mobility lends it self to mindgames. Also smash 64 is inferior to melee when it comes to mindgames in my opinion. If I'm wrong, tell me how, but please don't start an argument.

 

[Big-Cat]

No, I haven't been FSmashed by Falco under those conditions. Please, do tell.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still think standing still is the most powerful mindgame in any player's arsenal. You have no idea what that crazy ****er is going to do.

 

[Vkrm]

He full hops, falco's dair has a ton of priority, so you shield because beating it clean is something only a Marth with perfect timing could even hope to do. The falco empty jumps, and wavedashes back, in your shield it becomes a habit to grab because it's a lot characters optimal reversal option, so you grab, you whiff (because he wd out of range) and then you get pooped on by fsmash. Looks baller as ****.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I've always felt that mindgames constitute a majority of player skill. Lol at smash not having mindgames, haven't you ever been forward smashed by falco after he wavelands? The high mobility lends it self to mindgames. Also smash 64 is inferior to melee when it comes to mindgames in my opinion. If I'm wrong, tell me how, but please don't start an argument.

i haven't ever been fsmashed by a falco in that situation... generally the falco's that i've played (including Th0rn and Moose) were busy shooting at me and doing falco combo stuff after forcing a mistake/opening

also i never said that smash didn't have mindgames, i said they were "weak" because they are based around the movement options (footsies) and very little else. which makes us in agreement... kinda lol.

EDIT: read your writeup, it's still a mindgame based around movement, and would only work if your opponent reacted wrong, as you described *shrugs*

i'm writing that edit trying my best trying to not sound condescending too

2nd edit: come to think of it, even "True Yomi" relies on your foe guessing wrong... argh mindgames are difficult to define definitivly :-/

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wouldn't call the mindgames weak when they lead to rewards up to and including a stock loss for the opponent.

A huge amount that goes into recovering and edgeguarding is based on mindgames too. The difference between making it back and dying is far too substantial to call the effect or execution weak.

 

[Shadow Huan]

my phone's internet connection is making the edit's dumb lol

i really only mean weak because there are no "stance" characters, there are no high/low guard mixups, and the idea of doing something blatantly wrong to confuse a good player will get you killed rather than help get into your opponents head. so maybe weak isn't the right word...

maybe more straightforward? i dk i'm tired =_=

EDIT: okay how about a comparasion?

Fox drills onto a shield. he needs to fastfall and lcancel in order to not get shield grabbed. once he lands he can either shine to start shield pressure, grab in hopes of getting an uthrow - uair, wavedash forward or back to reset positioning, or do smash attacks, which are likely to get him punished. best option is shine since it comes out in 1 frame. it's on the fox player not to mess up and get punished once he touches the shield

Nightmare from the Soul series lands a blow against a guarding opponent. he can go into a stance, do nothing from it, do an attack from the stance into another stance, attack from any of those stances back into a nuteral position, switch stances without attacking at all, or not go into a stance at all in the first place. and each of his stances have multiple attacks for further mixups

one scenario is based off of one players skill once he hit confirms, the other is similar but requires both to try and out think eachother, since the person guarding against fox will be waiting to see if he misses the lcancel so he can try and punish, while the person who was guarding against Nightmare will have to option select since he won't know exactly what Nightmare's gonna do, and hope that the option he goes with is right.

that's the way i see it, i dk how good an example this is tho lol

gotta go sleep

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's not a very good example since the same that applies to Fox's shield pressure applies to every character with frame traps in any game. Of course shine is the best option; just like whatever character's 3A is the best followup on block of their 6B, or you know, any particular real example. There is often the best option in many situations to do in many games.

Sheik's shield pressure game is a lot more like the Nightmare example since nothing she has is 100% the right option on block and she has a lot of options to work with. Spacing away when landing, U-tilt, grab, jab, D-tilt, Dash attack to cross up, and some other, more particular examples.

Shield pressure actually has plenty of mixups in nearly every matchup. Jab/equivalent beats grab since it's faster, grab beats held shield, jab /usually/ beats roll, but a running grab can work if you predict it, Spotdodge beats frame 1 invincible OoS attacks, wait->attack/grab beats spotdodges. Like I said, almost the entirety of the offensive game is based on prediction and baiting/leading into what you want. It's hard, since the game is so variable. It's just not as easy as a fast overhead into a sweep after a jump in, but it's still there.

 

[Vkrm]

Fortunately for nightmare when they where listing frames and assigning hitboxes, they just decided to make that particular move function that way with the stance cancel. Good for him. It's a built in mindgame, but even then it's not. It's just rock paper scissors. All equal with no real right answer. Remember when daigo got double perfected by poongko? Top 8, Evo2011 I think. Daigo is not a bad player, he might be better than poongko but because of the stiff nature of traditional fighting games he got DP'ed. It didnt matter that he knew the Seth matchup, he probably had an exact idea of what moves would be usedon him, but it was already to late.

 

[DTR]

Pichu is so bad, it must have been deliberate.

Trophy description 1:
Compared with Pikachu, Pichu is a tad more nimble and a little more difficult to hit. Those are the only two advantages, however, and since Pichu damages itself when it uses electrical attacks, it's best suited for handicapped matches. Even though Pichu's tough to catch, it's easy to throw its tiny frame great distances.

Trophy description 2:
Pichu is the lightest character in Super Smash Bros. Melee, and it's top of the class in weakness, too! For Pichu, it's all about scampering here and there to pick up items that will help it survive. The first warp in Agility causes 1 point of damage to Pichu, and the second causes 3, so try to limit the number of times you use the move.

lololololol

 

[Shadow Huan]

It's not a very good example since the same that applies to Fox's shield pressure applies to every character with frame traps in any game. Of course shine is the best option; just like whatever character's 3A is the best followup on block of their 6B, or you know, any particular real example. There is often the best option in many situations to do in many games.

Sheik's shield pressure game is a lot more like the Nightmare example since nothing she has is 100% the right option on block and she has a lot of options to work with. Spacing away when landing, U-tilt, grab, jab, D-tilt, Dash attack to cross up, and some other, more particular examples.

Shield pressure actually has plenty of mixups in nearly every matchup. Jab/equivalent beats grab since it's faster, grab beats held shield, jab /usually/ beats roll, but a running grab can work if you predict it, Spotdodge beats frame 1 invincible OoS attacks, wait->attack/grab beats spotdodges. Like I said, almost the entirety of the offensive game is based on prediction and baiting/leading into what you want. It's hard, since the game is so variable. It's just not as easy as a fast overhead into a sweep after a jump in, but it's still there.

i agree, i would pretty much only add "reacting" to prediction and baiting. shiek's a better example than fox for sure. can we at least agree that smash still lacks the mixups that other fighters have built it?

Fortunately for nightmare when they where listing frames and assigning hitboxes, they just decided to make that particular move function that way with the stance cancel. Good for him. It's a built in mindgame, but even then it's not. It's just rock paper scissors. All equal with no real right answer. Remember when daigo got double perfected by poongko? Top 8, Evo2011 I think. Daigo is not a bad player, he might be better than poongko but because of the stiff nature of traditional fighting games he got DP'ed. It didnt matter that he knew the Seth matchup, he probably had an exact idea of what moves would be usedon him, but it was already to late.

no i don't remember that, i'm pretty sure i already said i don't follow 2D fighters, and i don't use them to compare to melee because the movement options are much more restricted. unlike Tekken and Soul Calibur, who have the 8 way run system and character specific tricks. i confess ignorence on other 3D fighters.

and nightmare doesn't have a "particular" move that stance cancels, he has several, and several move out of his stances, and stances out of other stances... ? lol

 

[Vkrm]

Once he's in said stance is he limited to the same 3 - 4 options?

 

[DTR]

smash lacks mix-ups. other fighters lack half of the stuff in melee.

di, gimps, edge guarding, hardly any guaranteed combos, and platform game just to name a few.

they are different games. they play differently.

 

[Big-Cat]

You could argue that DI is a type of okizeme.

 

[DTR]

lol im sure thats exactly what the developers were thinking when the added DI

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

lol im sure thats exactly what the developers were thinking when the added DI

DI being present in all 3 installments, i'm pretty sure that makes this statement positive. Though the DI acts kind of differently in the 3 games.

Brawl DI with Wiimote is insane.

 

[Vkrm]

Smash already has one of the best okizeme games to my knowledge. You can roll in two directions, stand up normally, get up attack, or tech in three directions.

 

[DTR]

but can you roll... 4 ways?

checkmate.

 

[Shawn101589]

Flash back to 2001: Melee was released. Everyone loved it, casuals (which was pretty much all that existed at the time) and hardcore alike. There was something for everyone. The mechanics were responsive and solid, there were skill based elements along with some random elements, but it was all optional so people could tailor their experiences however they wanted. As the years went on and the competitive aspects of the game developed, it was clear there were plenty people who truly enjoyed the depth that Melee had to offer, enough so to remove a lot of the less than controllable elements of the game and put money and pride on the line at tournaments. There were few that could argue that Melee had the best of both worlds.

Flash forward to 2006: The first trailer for Brawl was shown. There was nothing before, and few things since, that have gotten me hype for a game. New characters, new stages plenty of "OH **** DID METAKNIGHT JUST WAVEDASH WTF WAS THAT WHO THE **** IS PIT OMG WARIO WTF SOLID SNAKE?" Everyone was super excited for it. Everyone thought it would be an improvement on Melee in every way. Smash players at that time WERE MELEE PLAYERS and that didn't stop them from being excited about Brawl. The hate for Brawl did NOT come out of nowhere. My point here is, Melee players are not inherently against Brawl because it's Brawl. If you choose to be ignorant and assume that Melee players simply can't "adapt" or are simply choosing to dislike the game because they are "tryhards", then take your moronic arguments elsewhere.

There was no "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" situation. That is why many competitive players felt betrayed by Sakurai. The less competitive crowd was more than happy with Melee how it was, and the competitive crowd wanted the competitive aspects expanded rather than diminished. You can argue all day whether or not Brawl is a competitively deep game, and I don't pretend to be an expert on the matter, but what you can't argue with is the fact that, in terms of gameplay, Brawl lacks many fundamental aspects that, whether or not you'd say they required more / added more depth to the game, at the very least created a larger skill gap between people who could perform these techniques and people who could not.


A game with depth is a game with depth. That is what Smash is; whether it is technically a fighting game or not (as determined by who? Not sure. Doesn't really matter) is irrelevant. It functions similarly to a fighting game minus some major elements (health bar, meter, etc.) but has some unique elements (platforms, much more freedom of movement, direction influence, etc.) and it is definitely not for everyone.

The overly complex ruleset is there for the exact reason that everyone knows already: In vanilla settings, the game is not fit for competitive play. That is because it was not designed to be that way (by default). One thing that everyone has to realize is that regardless of a games intended design, there can be unexpected results. Melee's depth exists whether intentional or not, and there is nothing wrong with people taking their enjoyment of the game to another level and attempting to mimmick "real" fighting games. Anyone who is annoyed or upset by this needs to get over it. If it weren't an enjoyable experience then the Smash community would be dead by now, and it isn't.

Now if I'm understanding the OP correctly, your saying that the new Smash will be neither like Brawl nor Melee? I suppose that is a strong possibility, but here is the ultimate truth: Was Brawl a market failure due to the fact that the hardcore gamers disliked the changes? No, not in the slightest. The fact of the matter is that Nintendo doesn't really care how much we love Melee. They could make the next Smash the most competitive Smash to date, and the effects on it's sales would be pretty minor because competitive Smash players are by and large the minority. I'd be extremely thrilled if the next Smash was brought back in line with what made Melee so amazing but I'm not holding my breathe.

 

[Vkrm]

People say smash 4 is going to to do its own thing which im cool with. As long as its more like melee than brawl. Whys that? Cause brawl......is not a good game. This isn't me being a fanboy, Ive felt This since I first played brawl in 08. I had no knowledge of the at's in melee at that point in time.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Brawl just basically taught me to expect everything to be worse than what was before it. I can enjoy things more if I don't expect them to be as amazing as things made in the past.

I also tend to be late to the party on media trends since fandoms are so euuughhh when the media is in the limelight that it makes it hard to just enjoy the thing just for what it is.

 

[Dingding123]

i maturd thru barlw to
am now used dispoint

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Not sure where this would go...It pertains to ssb4 though.

I've noticed alot of melee fans hated brawl because it was changed drastically.It feels like melee fans didn't want a new game as much as they wanted a melee 2.0.

The thing to remember is that sakurai tries to make each game unique.Melee was really cool!My friend has beaten it numerous times.

Perhaps it's just me, but I think sakurai was going for an all new, less complex game.A game where you didn't need to learn uber advanced techniques.The result was Brawl.Brawl was easy to learn and simple, the drawback was losing a large amount of competitiveness.But it's differences are what make each a smash game, but still unique.

We all should know ssb4 won't be another melee. It won't be another brawl either.Sakurai will make it how he likes it and there isn't much we can do besides speculate.

Realize that alot of gameplay mechanics have changed since 64.They will also differ from brawl.(Maybe remove tripping).....(PLEASE Remove tripping!!!)

Think it through....

This thread is not intended for flame wars.Debates.....no war.

Except you didn't HAVE to learn "uber advanced" techniques, they were just cool things there to learn and try out if you wanted to, Brawl tried to eliminate that option and failed because there were still advanced techniques

The fact is, it's fun when there's crazy techniques like in melee to learn if you feel like it, melee had the best of both world in competitive and casual play, all Brawl did was take 1 world away and it made a good amount of people disappointed, I played Brawl for 4 months before I got bored while melee lasted 7 years, and I'm just a casual player

I'm not saying SSB4 should be another melee, but having the same speed and goofy techniques like wavedashing are nice options to keep in the same way street fighter has kept the same special moves and made other things different and still managed to be an awesome new game each time(aside from "Super" editions) there's nothing wrong with it, in fact it makes a lot of people happy to keep the best elements of past games, and I'm sorry but random tripping is NOT a fun element that should be kept, it was very annoying