Megaman Zero Mafia/Newbie 21! Game Over. Mafia Wins!

[#HBC | ѕoup]

woah, I just looked at the thread title and the deadline is more than a month away. I assume it's supposed to say 8/29, unless it's typical for lylo situations to have absurdly long deadlines?

I was feeling chartiable.

No seriously, it should be 8, lemme fix that.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Well, I was trying to get clarification on the deadline. Is that a problem?

I was also pointing out that I think it's more likely that Zen is the townie, not Loli.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

what's the pro-town motivation for these posts?

oh wait- nevermind.

who's scum?

Well, I was trying to get clarification on the deadline. Is that a problem?

I was also pointing out that I think it's more likely that Zen is the townie, not Loli.

I don't know- is you doing eff all that's productive a problem?

And great you think Zen is more townie than Loli. That make it more likely he's the bodyguard? Uhhh....

WHO IS SCUM?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I can't say with any certainty who the scum are. My strongest town read was BSP, but ever since Zen took over the slot he's been awfully sheepish. All I can gather from that is that different people play differently. Could mean any number of things.

As for Loli, I'm not quite sure what to make of her. At first I thought her sheepiness was scummy, but then she came forward with some actual opinions. I think her general playstyle is very quiet, but since we're in a critical stage of the game, she'll have no choice but to step up. I'll be watching her over the course of the day.

You, Kary, are being awfully aggressive against me. You may just be prodding me because you're unsure of your read on me. You may also be painting me as scum because you believe me to be scum, and are painting me as such to get me lynched. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Orbo, I initially thought was pretty townie. However, once I told him I read him as town, he began trying to lead everyone around on a leash. He attempted to get me and BSP to follow him in a voting block, and when BSP switched out, Zen began blindly following him.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

In fact, upon further consideration, I've concluded that my most likely picks for the scum team are Orbo and Zen.

Orbo's targets for his voting block were Gheb, Loli, and Kary. Since Gheb came out as town, I think it's likely that Loli may very well be town as well. Kary I've more or less read as town from the start. Orbo also placed himself, Masque, me, and BSP as the "likely town" in his voting block. As Scum, he knew that Masque was town, and since he had claimed Watcher, he knew he was going to be night killed and be confirmed. Thus, making him look like he knew what he was talking about. He even had practically confirmed him before everyone had finished their counterclaims.

He wanted me to follow him because he figured that I would, simply because I had read him as town.

I wanted to think Zen's slot was town based on BSP's play, but once Zen took over he just kind of didn't try. BSP may have just been playing well, and Zen just hasn't had the time to play it as smart, thus he just followed his partner. The fact that Orbo was protecting him by including him in the Town block further illustrates this.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

You, Kary, are being awfully aggressive against me. You may just be prodding me because you're unsure of your read on me. You may also be painting me as scum because you believe me to be scum, and are painting me as such to get me lynched. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Kary I've more or less read as town from the start.

Orbo's targets for his voting block were Gheb, Loli, and Kary. Since Gheb came out as town, I think it's likely that Loli may very well be town as well.

As Scum, he knew that Masque was town, and since he had claimed Watcher, he knew he was going to be night killed and be confirmed. Thus, making him look like he knew what he was talking about. He even had practically confirmed him before everyone had finished their counterclaims.

He wanted me to follow him because he figured that I would, simply because I had read him as town.

The fact that Orbo was protecting him by including him in the Town block further illustrates this.

*assumes Orbo is scum*

*uses this as a basis to argue that Orbo's play is scummy*

*fail*

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm not allowed to think you're town, and that townies can mistakenly believe a fellow townie to be scum?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Do you disagree that Zen and Orbo are the 2 players with the strongest connection in this game?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm not allowed to think you're town, and that townies can mistakenly believe a fellow townie to be scum?

wow forgive me for misunderstanding you. I should have realised
'kary is trying to make me look scummy' of course means 'kary has misread my slot but is still town'

Do you disagree that Zen and Orbo are the 2 players with the strongest connection in this game?

#1 I don't give two ****s as to whether your reads are right are half-decent if your reasons for having them are bologna
#2 yes, I probably am. You + BSP is probably a stronger connection, etc.
#3 I don't actually give two dollars as to who's the most connected to one another unless this gives us scum on a plate; which I don't believe you've shown.

Yo, when I call you out on your play being ***, maybe you should try and explain it rather than questioning my play, yeah?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I don't know what you want from me. You want conclusive proof? I don't have it. That's my best guess. It's a theory, and it's the best I could come up with.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

hahaha
ha ha
haa
no


what I want from you is damn simple
#684 you basically say anyone could be scum
#685 you say Orbo and Zen are most likely scum
but you provide next to nothing in terms of WHY this is the case

my whole point was that your #685 basically assumes a Orbo + Zen scumteam and THEN argues for it. You're not showing my WHY what these players have done IS scummy, you're just saying 'ahh this fits with them being scum'

UNLESS you can show me why it doesn't fit with them being town, you can get the hell outta here. If you don't know who's scum, that's fine, just say that. I AM putting pressure on you here but that doesn't mean you have to make stuff up to appease me, dig?
As a townie your priority is to find who is definitely scum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Pretty sure I said, multiple times, that I can't say anything with certainty. Those were my thoughts. My thoughts =/= fact, and I never claimed it as such. I gave my thoughts, because you called me a waste of space, and demanded them from me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

And yet somehow I'm still asking you WHY


Like, let me try and phrase this a little more simplistically.
At first you thought Loli was a bit scummy, and that Orbo-Rake was a bit townie.
Now you think Orbo-Rake is more likely to be scum

WHY is Orbo more likely to be scum than Loli?

because I don't understand the reasoning for your thoughts
I don't see your argument
so as far as I can tell you've plucked your thoughts straight outta thin air

which, if so, seems to leave you either as the worst townie or as scum

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Because if Loli was scum, then who the hell is her scummate? I can't find any connections to her that lead me to believe she has a teammate. Orbo, on the other hand, spent time yesterday trying to manipulate players into following him. I didn't like that the moment I saw it. One of the people he wanted to lynch was one of my stronger town reads, and the other one is somebody that we DID lynch, and it turns out he was town.

He also has a connection to Zen, in that Zen did willingly follow without justifying it. Even if Zen was being lazy (which I think he was) then why would he follow somebody who might be scum, since he hadn't fully read the game? Obviously, the only reason he'd have to follow anyone blindly would be if he knew they were on the same team, and the only way he could know they were on the same team is if they were both mafia.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm just going to say that trying to tell whether someone is scum based purely on their connections to other players

is hella dumb

but otherwise that post is pretty reasonable

I have stances from you now so I guess we'll just see how they develop.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I thought I had made those points pretty clear the first time I stated my theory.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Well, I was trying to get clarification on the deadline. Is that a problem?

I was also pointing out that I think it's more likely that Zen is the townie, not Loli.

Nah, I was just poking fun at ya.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Nah, I was just poking fun at ya.

Lol, that wasn't addressed to you. Kary was calling me useless for asking questions he doesn't consider "relevant to the game". That was addressed to him.

 

[Ramen King]

Joker it's not laziness, it's a matter of time. School just started this week and I want a good start. Your connection thing I don't like at all. You're saying that scum would feel safe following their buddy, but why would they need to feel safe if they were scum? wut? I joined to keep the game going. I mentioned that I would vote to prevent a no lynch which is better than my slot just doing nothing.

 

[Ramen King]

Also it's safe to point this out now since it's lylo. The reason why I felt Orbo to be the most trustable is because I think he is bodyguard. Rake crummbed so in his confirmation post. I remember he told me about his user name once which is based on a character who had something to do with being a bodyguard or an assassin. Hence why called his role ironic.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Pretty sure Anomander Rake was some kind of sorcerer that carried a sword and could change into a dragon. I don't remember anything about him being a bodyguard.

 

[Ramen King]

Yeah here: http://encyclopediamalazica.pbworks.com/w/page/18881284/Anomander Rake

Anomander once spent almost two centuries in the guise of a royal bodyguard...

So that's the reason for that.


The few thoughts I can give right now is that Joker is probably scum. That whole connection reasoning was so empty. It doesn't even feel like he is really trying to figure scum out but rather make a case based on preset picks. I don't know why Kary see it as reasonable now? Kary what is it that Joker provided in #694 that differs from his #685. Why do you find the former reasonable, but not the latter?

Orbo I still feel is town based on the above. Kary's aggressiveness towards Joker is a bit weird to me, but then again Kary always has random aggressive moments that I don't understand. I haven't even read a post of Loli's yet. Like I said, I'll try and read through this weekend. BG can go head and claim. And to state the obvious, no one vote yet. We don't have to rush. Be back this weekend hopefully.

 

[Ramen King]

Pretty sure Anomander Rake was some kind of sorcerer that carried a sword and could change into a dragon. I don't remember anything about him being a bodyguard.

(see above)

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I stand corrected. If that's the case, then Orbo should claim it, because he didn't when we were talking about it at the start of the day.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary what is it that Joker provided in #694 that differs from his #685. Why do you find the former reasonable, but not the latter?

Please don't get me wrong; I still hate the post. But there are a couple things in it that look more like an argument

Because if Loli was scum, then who the hell is her scummate? I can't find any connections to her that lead me to believe she has a teammate. Orbo, on the other hand, spent time yesterday trying to manipulate players into following him. I didn't like that the moment I saw it. One of the people he wanted to lynch was one of my stronger town reads, and the other one is somebody that we DID lynch, and it turns out he was town.

He also has a connection to Zen, in that Zen did willingly follow without justifying it. Even if Zen was being lazy (which I think he was) then why would he follow somebody who might be scum, since he hadn't fully read the game? Obviously, the only reason he'd have to follow anyone blindly would be if he knew they were on the same team, and the only way he could know they were on the same team is if they were both mafia.

-manipulating people;
-bad scumpicks;
-hopping on waggons;

you could argue all were scummy. Of course Joker doesn't actually argue for them... he's just kinda leapt to conclusions.

As I said I have some stances from him now. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be both a) useless and b) wrong as town, but I can wait for a claim to sort out the last of my reads.

Ehh, ask me again if that doesn't clear it up. Trying to put the possibility of Joker town on the table to see whether that adds up with his play.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Those points are all things that made me think they might be scum, which is, ya know, why I mentioned them. I fail to see how that doesn't count as me "arguing for them", do I have to put them in bullet points, like you did, in order for them to count as an argument? Not really following.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

heavens, do I actually have to spell this out for you?

Let me take an example;

You pointed out that Zen followed Orbo
You said that you thought Zen was scum because of this.
You DIDN'T EXPLAIN WHY Zen following Orbo was scummy, or why it couldn't be townie.

Right now you're LITERALLY pointing to something someone did and saying 'that's scummy'


Now, even if that were all well and good, when I ask you WHY it is scummy

i'm not really seeing any sort of answer


Let me look at what you said again, hmmm...

Even if Zen was being lazy (which I think he was) then why would he follow somebody who might be scum, since he hadn't fully read the game? Obviously, the only reason he'd have to follow anyone blindly would be if he knew they were on the same team, and the only way he could know they were on the same team is if they were both mafia.

Wow, it's almost as if you ask why Zen would have followed Orbo, and then the answer is 'because they're both mafia'. You even say it's 'obvious'.

So tell me, pretend it's not obvious. Pretend I genuinely am asking you why this is the case, because I don't understand. Tell me why Zen following Orbo can't be townie; tell me WHY it is more scummy than townie.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I actually did explain that. Zen said he didn't have time to read deep into the game, so he just hitched his wagon to Orbo's. As someone who hadn't read that much into the game, how could he possibly consider that a safe move? Wouldn't hitching your wagon to potential scum be extremely anti-town? The only way that'd be a safe move, would be if Zen could be certain they were on the same team. The only team who can be certain who their partners are, is the Mafia. I kind of already explained this. And by "kind of", I mean "I spelled it out in black and white, just like I did here".

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm getting pretty aggravated by this bull****. I'm not married to this idea that Orbo and Zen are absolutely the scum team, but because you're making me explain my points over and over and over again makes it seem like I'm really confident in the idea. My case isn't super solid, I know this. You're saying that I am jumping to wild conclusions, when I am not. The weakness of my case, does in fact, give me pause. The fact of the matter is that I don't see a stronger case out there. Not from myself. Not from you. Not from anybody.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I actually did explain that. Zen said he didn't have time to read deep into the game, so he just hitched his wagon to Orbo's. As someone who hadn't read that much into the game, how could he possibly consider that a safe move? Wouldn't hitching your wagon to potential scum be extremely anti-town? The only way that'd be a safe move, would be if Zen could be certain they were on the same team. The only team who can be certain who their partners are, is the Mafia. I kind of already explained this. And by "kind of", I mean "I spelled it out in black and white, just like I did here".

I'm getting pretty aggravated by this bull****. I'm not married to this idea that Orbo and Zen are absolutely the scum team, but because you're making me explain my points over and over and over again makes it seem like I'm really confident in the idea. My case isn't super solid, I know this. You're saying that I am jumping to wild conclusions, when I am not. The weakness of my case, does in fact, give me pause. The fact of the matter is that I don't see a stronger case out there. Not from myself. Not from you. Not from anybody.

I'm tired of this as well.

Why would scumZen admit to having not read up, and then decided to blatantly follow his scum partner? Doesn't that seem a bit derpy?
What do you expect town Zen to do given he doesn't have time to read up? You say his decision to follow isn't 'safe', but surely it's his best option given that he has an initial town-read on Rake-Orbo? Townies do things that aren't 'safe', like mislynching one another; it's part of the game.
THAT you think Zen is more likely scum than town based on his actions I find suspicious. You saying 'it's not safe as town' does not convince me, and doesn't suggest that you've tried putting yourself in Zen's shoes.

Now

I have a very simple case to make, one which I may follow up:

You can't come up with a plausible scumteam that doesn't have you in it; as such, you're likely to be scum.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

and yes if you are the bodyguard please claim ASAP

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You're saying that I'm scum for not accusing myself of being scum? wtf why would I ever want to call myself scum? Yes, clearly I should be trying to get myself lynched, that will help the town a lot.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If you're trying to say that Me/Zen could be the scumteam, based on BSP defending me earlier in the game, or that the same could be said about You/Me as a scumteam for the same reason... then ok? Why would I ever wanna bring that up though? If I know I'm not scum (obviously I know whether or not I am scum) then how is it productive to accuse somebody I know to be innocent?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

I AM SAYING YOU ARE SCUM
ON THE BASIS THAT
A SCUMTEAM WITHOUT YOU IN IT
DOES NOT LOOK PLAUSIBLE

SHOW ME A PLAUSIBLE SCUMTEAM
WITHOUT YOU IN IT
OR THE LIKELY EXPLANATION IS
YOU'RE SCUM

CAPICHE?

bored now.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

wtf how is Orbo/Zen not plausible?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

wtf how is Orbo/Zen not plausible?

Why would scumZen admit to having not read up, and then decided to blatantly follow his scum partner? Doesn't that seem a bit derpy?
What do you expect town Zen to do given he doesn't have time to read up? You say his decision to follow isn't 'safe', but surely it's his best option given that he has an initial town-read on Rake-Orbo? Townies do things that aren't 'safe', like mislynching one another; it's part of the game.
THAT you think Zen is more likely scum than town based on his actions I find suspicious. You saying 'it's not safe as town' does not convince me, and doesn't suggest that you've tried putting yourself in Zen's shoes.

bored now.

...................

 

[#HBC | Joker]

So why is a scumteam that includes me any more plausible? Please explain.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Because you're about 20 times as scummy as BSP-Zen?

What did you do this game, I forget? Jump on Badwolf then flail and say you had no other reads. Fail to push for any other reads. Make cases on people FULL of holes and then complain when they come back to haunt you. Only really get involved when prompted to?

Pretty much the only thing I have BSP down as doing that's scummy is defending you; and given that one of Loli/Orbo is cleared through being the bodyguard, that doesn't leave me many options other than thinking you're scum.

Hopefully that's all clear as day then.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Lol, lynch me then, see what happens. Unless you're scum, it's not gonna help you win.

I've been trying to be pro-town this game, and I'm not the only person responsible for Badwolf's lynch. My reads haven't been any more inaccurate than anyone else's, or we'd have caught scum by now. Just because I've made some shaky cases doesn't mean I'm scum. I haven't seen you, or anyone else, make a solid case to catch scum yet either. If you wanna blame me for the town losing, go right ahead if it makes you feel better. I know I did the best I could.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ya know what though? **** that. just because you think I'm scum doesn't mean I'm going down without a fight. Town is depending on me.

So to address your arguments, lets start with Day1.
I think I've made it pretty clear why I went after Badwolf. He wasn't contributing to the game, despite the fact that he was active in it. Skating by lurking in the shadows is a pretty common scum tactic. When confronted with it, he didn't deny it in the slightest. In fact, he outright refused to actually help out the town by giving reads of his own. Do you really think it was unreasonable of me to be convinced of his scummyness? I did not refuse to read other players. In fact, I gave my reads on the other players in the game. Ya know, I did that thing that townies are supposed to do when there's a possibility of them being lynched. I tried to give the town as much information as I could. The fact that you don't like the information isn't very relevant to this point. Don't look at the information, look at my intent.

On Day2
I had to spend the first part of the day fighting off the rabid dog that was Masquerain. Despite this, I still made efforts to read other players like Orbo, Frozen, Loli, and Masque. My activity was in the town's interest, not my own. It isn't really my fault that Frozen continued being inactive, and that Masque self destructed. I could have just made nothing but efforts to save myself, and just watch the town fall apart, but I didn't. Just because I responded to you when you'd ask over the course of the game does not make me scum. In fact, it would have been much easier for me to just say "I dunno" and disappear. But I didn't. I gave out as much information as I could, and I didn't back down from my opinions just because other people disagreed with me. I've never flip flopped just to please other players. It would have been much easier for me to do so.

Do you really think I would have taken the risks I've taken during this game if I was scum? Think about that for a minute. There's nothing "scummy" I've done that couldn't just as easily be "townie".