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Media Chimes in on Competitive Smash (Prima Games)

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JoeInky

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There's nothing wrong with keeping smash simple.
You can still have depth where the options available are determined by clever thinking instead of I guess 'technical depth' where the optionals available are determined by technical skill, both can result in good games but I think smash, as a whole, would benefit more from the former than the latter.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be ATs though, don't get me wrong I think that kind of stuff in smash is great, I just think there should be less of that at an entry level where newer players can still have those tools that are completely necessary (e.g. L-cancelling) available to them without I guess cryptic inputs.

@ JoeInky JoeInky : So you're saying aerial that moves should auto-cancel but only do so if they connect? That is an interesting sounding mechanic and, while I cannot honestly judge whether it would work in practice, I do like the potential implications for it.
That's what I was thinking, yes, I feel like it could be a good way of improving offensive options whilst still giving defensive options for the clever player, so that the game has more of a balance between the two styles than an all or nothing approach.
But these are the sort of things you can't really just say "Wouldn't it be good if..." and would need extensive testing, so maybe it would actually end up being terrible in actual game play, it's just a, somewhat reasonable in my mind, thought I had.
 
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Chimera

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http://www.primagames.com/games/sup...intendo-can-make-smash-bros-wii-u-competitive

Thoughts on this?

A follow-up article can be written, and will have more visibility at Nintendo than some of the posts here. Just want to make sure the "big" issues are addressed. By big, I mean things that actually have a chance of being changed before release.
The whole "it's not melee, so will it be competitive at all" thing is getting kind of old. If the game is not competitive, it won't be because it's not Melee, but because it isn't competitive on it's own merits. Melee isn't the end all, be all of competition. It's not the only way to have a competitive Smash Bros. game. Let this game have a chance to breathe.
 

Ulevo

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Thanks, Ulevo.

This however, leads me to ask, does depth always have to come at an increased difficulty? Hypothetically, if there were a one button wavedash, would that still be as bad as no wavedashing? I mean, take a look at chess. From your defenition, wouldn't chess have quite a bit of depth to it? But the amount of dexterity needed is close to nil. Pick up the piece, move it. Done.

So what's wrong with keeping Smash simple?
I've addressed this concern before as well.

For starters, Smash is simple. Even Melee is, technically speaking. The problem with technical difficulty in Smash isn't that the inputs are hard, it's that they need to be used in quick succession because of the games pace. It's like Guitar Hero. None of the inputs are difficult, you only have five keys to hit. But when you're having to hit them on Expert difficulty speed, suddenly it is pretty challenging.

You could make it easier for the player by making an automated 'wavedash button' that aids the player, sure. I'm not arguing for or against that. But I don't think it would make the game significantly simpler to the point where it really helps the players who struggle with these mechanical barriers.

There are only four methods to really decrease the amount of technical difficulty:

1. Decrease the amount of inputs, or actions per second, that are necessary to perform the same given action
2. Increase the time window in which you are able to enter the inputs to perform specific actions
3. Increase the amount of start up and cooldown recovery for actions to allow for a greater window of time between actions to pass
4. Remove mechanics from the game so less actions per second can be performed

With fighting games and especially with Smash, you can't remove mechanics without removing depth. The mechanics create the depth. You can try to to simplify the mechanics in alternative ways that maintain depth while making the user experience easier, but removing them usually results in a deficit of valuable interactivity. And that isn't to say that altering the mechanics instead of removing them is always the solution either, because sometimes that won't work either depending on the mechanic and the situation you're looking to address.

It comes down to design philosophy as well, and what the designer and development team feels is most important and valuable for the direction of their game as it pertains to the audience.

So let's give some examples.

L-Cancelling is a mechanic that, as discussed, gives no perceivable depth to the game. It's design is purely as a mechanical barrier for the player to overcome to reach a new plateau of skill. There are specific reasons for a design like this that have merit, but they're outside the scope of this talk. Removing L-Cancelling in favor of something else can and would improve the player experience from a perspective of making the game more accessible and easier to play, but that's because the mechanic was designed purely as something to increase difficulty.

Now if you wanted to remove something like fast falling, as an example, that has implications. I know players who struggle with being able to fast fall because they will attempt to do so before the apex of the jump or character altitude. From a designers point of view, could this be removed so that all players fall at relatively the same speed barring character differences? Sure it could. It would balance the playing field between those who can fast fall properly, and those who can't. And this is a philosophy Brawl largely went with. Unfortunately there are consequences with this kind of a direction. If you remove fast falling, you remove interesting interactions that create depth, like whether or not to fast fall to catch the ledge sooner while risking being struck by that charged forward Smash the other player is using to edge guard you. Or whether or not to fast fall your aerial for a greater chance at hitting your opponent, at the risk that it might wiff and you'll wind up suffering landing lag because of it, opening you up for a punish. Essentially this makes the choice for you by ensuring the choice isn't there to begin with, and without choice, or the ability to make decisions in gaming, depth doesn't exist.

As far as altering mechanics are concerned, you could do things like play with the frame data. Certain approaches will work well, however some will not. For example, Fox in Melee was very hard to short hop with compared to characters like Bowser, or Link. This was because the amount of time your thumb press had to be held to the jump button in order for you to achieve a short hop versus a full hop was different, and the timing window for Fox was much smaller. This didn't necessarily mean that Fox jumped faster, just that he was arbitrarily more difficult. To make this easier without decreasing the amount of depth per gameplay, you could balance these values across the board so it's just as easy or hard to jump with Fox as with all characters.

You could also do things like tamper with the start up and cooldown of actions and moves, but that has can have an effect on game balance in isolated conditions, and systemically it suffers others effects, such as making the game slower. Now, you can slow down the game for the sake of making it easier, and it wouldn't necessarily remove depth (arguably) provided that it was handled properly, and on a systemic level, but that might not be what your target audience desires. I would say that's pretty evident here considering one of the most common complaints we hear about Smash sequels is that they're slow.
 
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Ogre_Deity_Link

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Personally, I'd be willing to compromise and agree to keep in many ATs as long as they weren't so damned mechanically difficult to pull off. Options are one thing, but dexterity is a whole 'nother, and I don't think that every game needs to have mechanical barriers to be good. All that does is prevent people who might be good at the game as a concept from competing at higher levels just because they can't pull off the split second inputs required in that high level of play, especially with a game like Smash.

Things like fast-falling aren't hard because you cannot get any simpler. You literally move the control stick down. Done. End of story.

Wavedashing however requires you to shot hop, almost instantly fastfall at a diagonal angle to the ground and airdodge before you hit the ground all in the space of a few frames with VERY unforgiving timing.

DI and SDI, easy. You just tilt/smash the control stick in whatever direction you'd like to be/not be.

L-cancel? A button that you have to press within a very unforgiving window of timing and do it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU MAKE AN AERIAL ATTACK.

In the end, I think that the concept of the ATs aren't necessarily a terrible things, but mechanical barriers are.
 

mimgrim

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L-cancel? A button that you have to press within a very unforgiving window of timing and do it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU MAKE AN AERIAL ATTACK.
To be very precise with this, L-cancel has a 7 frame window before landing and while that may seem low, 7 frames is pretty lenient for a fighting game. Smash 64 had an 11 frame window, which is definitelly lenient. The problem probably, emphasis on probably, isn't the window it is available but rather because you need to be able to do it constantly and consistently. If it didn't require to be done so often you probably wouldn't fin it to be that bad.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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To be very precise with this, L-cancel has a 7 frame window before landing and while that may seem low, 7 frames is pretty lenient for a fighting game. Smash 64 had an 11 frame window, which is definitelly lenient. The problem probably, emphasis on probably, isn't the window it is available but rather because you need to be able to do it constantly and consistently. If it didn't require to be done so often you probably wouldn't fin it to be that bad.
7 frames is still 7/60ths or 7/50ths (depends on the game) of a second. That's an incredibly short period of time to press a button, even more so for a button that's required to be pressed regularly with every aerial attack.
 

LiteralGrill

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7 frames is still 7/60ths or 7/50ths (depends on the game) of a second. That's an incredibly short period of time to press a button, even more so for a button that's required to be pressed regularly with every aerial attack.
It's honestly true. I know I'm in a slight minority but having disabled fingers I just can't do it every time no matter how hard I try. I have to play G&W in Melee because he CAN'T l-cancel all of his attacks to just try and save my fingers.\
 

ryuu seika

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7 frames is still 7/60ths or 7/50ths (depends on the game) of a second.
Actually, due to the way 50Hz smash works, it could potentially be cutting out some of the frames in which you would normally be able to L-cancel. I did try to advocate the use of 50Hz for a while when I was new here, solely to stop Kirby's cheap as heck swallowcide cancel (the dropped frames make it impossible to know when to perform it, if not to actually do so).
 
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Cassio

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Depth can be applied to different aspects of a competitive game. But when people typically talk about depth they mean mechanical depth or game mechanics. Here's some info on it:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134273/evaluating_game_mechanics_for_depth.php?print=1
It wasn't a demand, it was a question. And it is quite relevant, because you're blabbing on about credentials essentially, presuming people don't have the proper experience. So that begs the question, exactly how much do you have?
While I agree with the sentiment, I have been to plenty of both kinds of tournaments and agree that melee players typically don't know what theyre talking about in regards to Brawl.
 

SKM_NeoN

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Personally, I'd be willing to compromise and agree to keep in many ATs as long as they weren't so damned mechanically difficult to pull off. Options are one thing, but dexterity is a whole 'nother, and I don't think that every game needs to have mechanical barriers to be good. All that does is prevent people who might be good at the game as a concept from competing at higher levels just because they can't pull off the split second inputs required in that high level of play, especially with a game like Smash.
So many people get caught up with this line of thinking, that if Melee were to remove the mechanical barrier, they too may be competent Smash players.

This is a fallacy. If you're not good at Melee, you're not going to be good at Brawl given the same invested interest and competitive environment.
 

JoeInky

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So many people get caught up with this line of thinking, that if Melee were to remove the mechanical barrier, they too may be competent Smash players.

This is a fallacy. If you're not good at Melee, you're not going to be good at Brawl given the same invested interest and competitive environment.
I don't think the implication is that if that barrier was removed they'd suddenly be amazing at the game, I don't think anyone actually believes that, it's more that if the barrier was removed then there wouldn't be a non-skill-based mechanic potentially holding them back.

At a purely mechanical level, there's no real difference between someone l-cancelling a move and someone having it automatically l-cancel, it doesn't imply any sort of deep knowledge or skill at the game by if you look at the mechanic in a vacuum, it's all about how players decide to use tools available to them in game, making a tool less available for certain people for no other reason than to force the game to require a higher level of input required isn't what smash should be about imo.
 
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mimgrim

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7 frames is still 7/60ths or 7/50ths (depends on the game) of a second. That's an incredibly short period of time to press a button, even more so for a button that's required to be pressed regularly with every aerial attack.
It seems short. When looking at in a vacuum. But look at it in the context of fighting games, or even just Smash. 7 frames is actually a reasonable amount of that time in the context, for an average person anyways. Now for a disabled person, such as Capps, or someone who has naturally disabled fingers, it's going to be worse on them. However that doesn't make it objectively hard mechanic to pull off.

Let's try another way though. Short hopping with Fox is actually harder then L-canceling. Fox has a frame 1 short hop. Melee in and of itself actually isn't difficult, unless, again, you are handicapped, it's only certain characters that are actually hard (Fox, to a lesser extent Falco, and Ice Climbers, a case could possibly be made for Peach as well but it would be a bit of a stretch).

It's honestly true. I know I'm in a slight minority but having disabled fingers I just can't do it every time no matter how hard I try. I have to play G&W in Melee because he CAN'T l-cancel all of his attacks to just try and save my fingers.\
Let's assume that L-canceling was automatic in Melee. So with it being automatic, do you think you would stand that much a better chance in the game? Being disabled like that still gives you a huge disadvantage and that isn't the games fault. Though since I don't know the nature of you disability, like if you were born with it or something else, I can't say for sure it wasn't your fault either

Disclaimer - I don't actually care if L-canceling comes back or not. If it comes back great! If it doesn't, still great! The mechanic has never bothered me, but I wouldn't miss it either. Jut try to clear up some misconceptions.
 

ImaClubYou

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Umm, no. L-cancelling is an input window, while short hopping is an input. Fox's short hop may be one frame but you can input that one frame at any time, whereas L-cancelling requires precise timing.
Short Hopping can be a considered an input window especially on offense.

Full Hopping on accident can ruin a combo or you can just miss an attack in general.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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So many people get caught up with this line of thinking, that if Melee were to remove the mechanical barrier, they too may be competent Smash players.

This is a fallacy. If you're not good at Melee, you're not going to be good at Brawl given the same invested interest and competitive environment.
Really?

Really?

First of all, I hate to be that person, but I'm getting really tired of you. Every post you make seems to be inflammatory, elitist and condescending, so do me a favor, and piss off? 'cause either you're a master troll, or you are the most unpleasant person on this site.

Jaysus.

In response to your post though, I find it insulting that people assume just because they can't pass mechanical barriers, they automatically can't play the game even without them. I've been playing Smash fairly regularly for years, and I'm fairy certain that I know quite a few characters quite well. The only two reasons I don't play competitively is one; I've met far too many people like you who've turned me off to the tournament scene as a whole, and two; I find it exceedingly difficult to perform the more difficult to pull off ATs.
 

mimgrim

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Umm, no. L-cancelling is an input window, while short hopping is an input. Fox's short hop may be one frame but you can input that one frame at any time, whereas L-cancelling requires precise timing.
Short hopping require precise timing as well.

No idea what you are trying to get at lol.
 

JoeInky

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Short hopping require precise timing as well.

No idea what you are trying to get at lol.
I think the main difference is that shorthopping is an action whereas L-Cancelling is a reaction, I think that's how I'd describe them anyway, I personally can shorthop more consistently than I can L-Cancel but that's just anecdotal really.
 
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ryuu seika

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Lol all you want but my point remains. A short hop now or a short hop 7 frames later is still a short hop while, even with a 1 frame button press, the same cannot be said about an L-cancel.

EDIT: Inky gets it. Short hopping creates its own window while L-cancelling requires you to act within an existing one.
 
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HeroMystic

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Wavedashing however requires you to shot hop, almost instantly fastfall at a diagonal angle to the ground and airdodge before you hit the ground all in the space of a few frames with VERY unforgiving timing.
This is worded a bit oddly to me, since you indicate "almost instantly fastfall", which would be the wrong terminology since fastfalling is actually impossible when initiating a wavedash (Wavelanding is a different story).

I'm actually interested now in how you perform your inputs. Can you tell me?
 

Hong

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Really?

Really?

First of all, I hate to be that person, but I'm getting really tired of you. Every post you make seems to be inflammatory, elitist and condescending, so do me a favor, and piss off? 'cause either you're a master troll, or you are the most unpleasant person on this site.

Jaysus.
Why even do this? Message them in private. I don't expect you to like everyone, but you're just going to provoke a negative response and increase the toxicity levels of the thread. Yeah, I know the rest of your post had an argument in the next paragraph, but the thread can do without everyone's personal vendetta's getting dragged into them.

This goes out for everyone.
 

Ogre_Deity_Link

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This is worded a bit oddly to me, since you indicate "almost instantly fastfall", which would be the wrong terminology since fastfalling is actually impossible when initiating a wavedash (Wavelanding is a different story).

I'm actually interested now in how you perform your inputs. Can you tell me?
Short hop, hit diagonally down on the control stick and air-dodge into the ground. Isn't that how you're supposed to do it?


EDIT: I do apologize for my unnecessarily aggressive post. I let my frustrations get the better of me.
 
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D

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So no tournament experience then.
Wrong.

Oh wait, you're going to do that thing where my opinion is invalid unless I've beaten the likes of M2K or Mango?

God your pretentiousness is profound.
 

Cassio

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Wave dash is the simplest way I can think of to perform all the mechanics it allows you to do. You push a button then you push a direction, you cant possibly make it any simpler.
EDIT: I do apologize for my unnecessarily aggressive post. I let my frustrations get the better of me.
He's also right though. If youre complaining about the technical mechanics, youre in for a rude awakening once you realize the mental aspects that go on in the game that are much more difficult to grasp. In honestly I think tech skill is a nice crutch for new players looking to improve because its a pretty straight forward way to get better at the game. Trying to get better at Brawl is actually more difficult for players looking to show signs improvement since improvement isnt linear.
 

JoeInky

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Some people do find the technical aspects harder than the mental aspects though, I know I do with my big dumb hands.

I've spent hours trying to get l-cancelling down in training only for my hands to pretty much **** themselves when it comes to an actual game.
 
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Cassio

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While not meant to offend anyone, I would say those people havent progressed far enough to understand its scope.
 
D

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Wave dash is the simplest way I can think of to perform all the mechanics it allows you to do. You push a button then you push a direction, you cant possibly make it any simpler.

He's also right though. If youre complaining about the technical mechanics, youre in for a rude awakening once you realize the mental aspects that go on in the game that are much more difficult to grasp. In honestly I think tech skill is a nice crutch for new players looking to improve because its a pretty straight forward way to get better at the game. Trying to get better at Brawl is actually more difficult for players looking to show signs improvement since improvement isnt linear.
Performing a wave dash and utilizing it properly are two entirely different things.

Also it's completely on the individual which concept is harder to approach, technical or mental. I actually MUCH PREFER MENTAL, and excel at yomi in fighting games.
 

JoeInky

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While not meant to offend anyone, I would say those people havent progressed far enough to understand its scope.
I definitely haven't and I certainly don't use it as an excuse or anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply that that pesky l-cancelling is the one thing that's holding me back, it isn't and I accept it as part of the game, it's what melee and project M is for a lot of people and I respect that.

But if you gave me the opportunity to not have wavedashing and have l-cancelling be automatic in a new game with a fresh community then damn right I'd prefer that.
 
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ryuu seika

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It's all about what's best for the game. Having an awkward, unnecessary and entirely invisible button press requirement for less lag adds zero depth of gameplay, adds pointless physical barriers and just generally deters newcomers. Even those who could potentially do it may be put off by the idea of having to learn these timings for no other purpose than the game saying they need to.

I was quite taken aback when I learnt of all the ATs' existence and not in a "Wow, these guys can do that?!" kind of way. More of a "Do I really need to master so many hand motions to compete?!" way.

I tried and I could do Wavedashing, though I never got past the proving I could stage due to my disagreements with the technique. As for L-cancelling, I honestly don't know if I ever managed it. It was just a case of pressing buttons until something happened and if it did I never noticed. It's too invisible.
 
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Ulevo

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Wrong.

Oh wait, you're going to do that thing where my opinion is invalid unless I've beaten the likes of M2K or Mango?

God your pretentiousness is profound.
I believe my question was just whether or not you had tournament experience, not whether or not you've beaten the top two players in the world. But you're welcome to continue being a hypocrite if you so choose.

I can actively make you look stupid as you post, or you can do it on your own. I'm leaving it in your court.
 
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D

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I believe my question was just whether or not you had tournament experience, not whether or not you've beaten the top two players in the world. But you're welcome to continue being a hypocrite if you so choose.

I can actively make you look stupid as you post, or you can do it on your own. I'm leaving it in your court.
Lmao, troll on sparky.
 

Ulevo

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Personally, I'd be willing to compromise and agree to keep in many ATs as long as they weren't so damned mechanically difficult to pull off. Options are one thing, but dexterity is a whole 'nother, and I don't think that every game needs to have mechanical barriers to be good. All that does is prevent people who might be good at the game as a concept from competing at higher levels just because they can't pull off the split second inputs required in that high level of play, especially with a game like Smash.

Things like fast-falling aren't hard because you cannot get any simpler. You literally move the control stick down. Done. End of story.
The bolded part here is kind of the key point here. For almost all of the actions in Smash, you can't get any simpler. There's a reason why a lot of mechanics were removed, not changed, when Brawl transitioned from Melee. This is because there isn't a simpler way to design those mechanics.

7 frames is still 7/60ths or 7/50ths (depends on the game) of a second. That's an incredibly short period of time to press a button, even more so for a button that's required to be pressed regularly with every aerial attack.
It's honestly true. I know I'm in a slight minority but having disabled fingers I just can't do it every time no matter how hard I try. I have to play G&W in Melee because he CAN'T l-cancel all of his attacks to just try and save my fingers.\
Couple things here. For one, mimgrim is right. 7 frames is actually very forgiving time window. If you can't perform actions like this, you will typically struggle overall mechanically, not just with specific techniques.

That all being said, something I want to highlight is that L-Cancelling can be done with L/R or Z. I personally use Z because I don't like the space between the L/R triggers and the actual button. You could try and play around with that to see if one method is easier. The other thing to keep in mind is that Melee didn't have customizable button schemes, while Brawl did, so that could have made it easier for some people if they could, say, L-Cancel with X instead. I know just having customizable schemes improved things overall for a few friends of mine, one in particular who does wonky things like having special on Y and B for grab.

Depth can be applied to different aspects of a competitive game. But when people typically talk about depth they mean mechanical depth or game mechanics. Here's some info on it:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134273/evaluating_game_mechanics_for_depth.php?print=1

While I agree with the sentiment, I have been to plenty of both kinds of tournaments and agree that melee players typically don't know what theyre talking about in regards to Brawl.
This is true from my experience, I will attest to that. It wasn't the reason for my post, ultimately.

Umm, no. L-cancelling is an input window, while short hopping is an input. Fox's short hop may be one frame but you can input that one frame at any time, whereas L-cancelling requires precise timing.
While it may appear as though you can input that 1 frame action at any time, the truth is that when you do decide to it will be completely dictated by what's going on in the game, and thus is still dependent on a basis of proper timing. We're still talking about a function of dexterity here. The primary point being made here is that you know ahead of time when you have to jump, therefore you're more suited to jump properly, but you also know when you're going to L-Cancel.

I'd also like to note that people with slower hands will find short hopping on frame 1 difficult, likely more difficult than L-Cancelling. Even if it is a timed window, it's a very forgiving window. You can't make a frame 1 jump any harder.

Short hop, hit diagonally down on the control stick and air-dodge into the ground. Isn't that how you're supposed to do it?


EDIT: I do apologize for my unnecessarily aggressive post. I let my frustrations get the better of me.
Do you try to hold the direction before you air dodge, or do you hit the direction and the air dodge simultaneously? Not that either is wrong or won't work, but I find myself jumping, holding the direction as I'm beginning to jump, and then dodging. I find that if you attempt to rely on the fact that you're going to hit the direction on the stick and the dodge at the same time, you're just creating an extra window to screw up. This is especially easy to do when you're trying to wavedash out of say a walk or a run since your thumb is already kinda near where it needs to be.

He's also right though. If youre complaining about the technical mechanics, youre in for a rude awakening once you realize the mental aspects that go on in the game that are much more difficult to grasp. In honestly I think tech skill is a nice crutch for new players looking to improve because its a pretty straight forward way to get better at the game. Trying to get better at Brawl is actually more difficult for players looking to show signs improvement since improvement isnt linear.
This is kinda like how in League of Legends, you need to level up your account to level 30 and own a certain amount of champions before being allowed to play in ranked, and how you can only use tier 3 runes until level 21. This process puts you through a learning experience that prepares you for the upper plateaus of understanding the game, much like learning mechanics and techniques do. By the time you get good at them, you start to learn and appreciate their application, which improves your mental skill at the game significantly.
 
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HeroMystic

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Do you try to hold the direction before you air dodge, or do you hit the direction and the air dodge simultaneously? Not that either is wrong or won't work, but I find myself jumping, holding the direction as I'm beginning to jump, and then dodging. I find that if you attempt to rely on the fact that you're going to hit the direction on the stick and the dodge at the same time, you're just creating an extra window to screw up. This is especially easy to do when you're trying to wavedash out of say a walk or a run since your thumb is already kinda near where it needs to be.
@ Ogre_Deity_Link Ogre_Deity_Link

This is basically what I wanted to reply with. Basically, you can move the control stick while you're jumping, or you can move it while you're air-dodging. I'm one of those people who does it while jumping, which is why I found the "almost instantly fastfall" note peculiar.
 

Aninymouse

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Not even getting into all the other stuff you said. I'll let other people figure that stuff out. I don't pretend to be a top competitive player, so I won't talk like one.

However, while that match was kinda boring through most of it, it got VERY exciting near the end, where they were building percents on each other and racing neck-and neck... and that surprise FSmash, wow. I don't bother watching Brawl matches much at all due to timeouts and extreme camping, but that wasn't the overall best example for you to use to prove your point, since it had such an exciting ending.
 

Ryuutakeshi

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Honesly, since I'm just not as tech savvy as I wish I was and I'm more accustomed to feel of a keyboard and mouse, I find even trying to pull of AT's difficult. And now that we're talking fractions of a second, that's just too short a time for me. I don't have the muscle memory or skill to easily perform these actions. Given time I could maybe get it figured out but even though I KNOW how to wall jump in Super Metroid it's still ridiculously difficult for me. I take that experience and then look at Smash and I just sigh. A shame all my dextrous capabilities went to my balance.

If having to learn all these different mechanics is required to be competative, it's not for me. I really just do not have the time to commit. Probably gonna get my ass kicked in online, but what else is new?
 

mimgrim

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Couple things here. For one, mimgrim is right. 7 frames is actually very forgiving time window. If you can't perform actions like this, you will typically struggle overall mechanically, not just with specific techniques.

That all being said, something I want to highlight is that L-Cancelling can be done with L/R or Z. I personally use Z because I don't like the space between the L/R triggers and the actual button. You could try and play around with that to see if one method is easier. The other thing to keep in mind is that Melee didn't have customizable button schemes, while Brawl did, so that could have made it easier for some people if they could, say, L-Cancel with X instead. I know just having customizable schemes improved things overall for a few friends of mine, one in particular who does wonky things like having special on Y and B for grab.
Wow you agreed with me. I think that is a first actually. xD

While it may appear as though you can input that 1 frame action at any time, the truth is that when you do decide to it will be completely dictated by what's going on in the game, and thus is still dependent on a basis of proper timing. We're still talking about a function of dexterity here. The primary point being made here is that you know ahead of time when you have to jump, therefore you're more suited to jump properly, but you also know when you're going to L-Cancel.

I'd also like to note that people with slower hands will find short hopping on frame 1 difficult, likely more difficult than L-Cancelling. Even if it is a timed window, it's a very forgiving window. You can't make a frame 1 jump any harder.
And you pretty much said what I wanted to say. Technically speaking it is reaction based but it isn't based on reacting on your opponent, DI is a good example of something being reaction based from reading your opponent, and you will know that you are going to want to do it before you do it.

Thanks for replying before I could and wording it better then anything I could have posted. xD
 

Morbi

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That's rather ironic. Considering Melee itself isn't all that balanced in the first place. xD
I just mean that as a competitive enthusiast, I prefer balance over even game-play as I can adapt to the game-play. I am a Melee enthusiast; however, I did not mean to insinuate that the game was balanced. I just mean that I do not want another Melee either, I want a balanced game.
 

Ulevo

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I just mean that as a competitive enthusiast, I prefer balance over even game-play as I can adapt to the game-play. I am a Melee enthusiast; however, I did not mean to insinuate that the game was balanced. I just mean that I do not want another Melee either, I want a balanced game.
I think overall balance is kinda overrated. If you look at Melee, there's only like 9 characters that are truly competitively viable, but they're all honestly pretty balanced among each other, so in that respect Melee has some respectable balance in competitive play. Sure, it'd be nice if the other 15 or so characters were just as good, but 9 characters that are all excellent and on the same plateau of power is pretty damn good for a fighting game.
 
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