Media Chimes in on Competitive Smash (Prima Games)

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

As a Melee advocate, I do not even necessarily want "options," I just want balance.

For all we know the game could be balanced right now and we are merely approaching the game in a fashion we are accustomed to.

A common complaint is the lag on aerials, which sucks, but approaching with short hop aerials may not be the best method of approach given the amount of options characters have out of pivot, the game may have more ground oriented options.

Grabs are hard to follow up on with aerials now with some characters (notably Marth) may be a balance indicator. Since Marth is a zoning character maybe the distance on the throws are justified to put the opponent in positions where he has an advantage: in front of him and above him. He has lag on his forward air and can't double fair so that his zoning tools aren't so crippling considering that he is already a beast at frame traps, and this may also force more creative play. From what I'm seeing Bair is great, Nair is still good, counter is stronger along with shield breaker and landing lag on dolphin slash is minimal so theoretically you can follow up with it on platforms fairly well.

The way things are playing out it seems like balancing seems to be character specific.

 

[mimgrim]

I think overall balance is kinda overrated. If you look at Melee, there's only like 9 characters that are truly competitively viable, but they're all honestly pretty balanced among each other, so in that respect Melee has some respectable balance in competitive play. Sure, it'd be nice if the other 15 or so characters were just as good, but 9 characters that are all excellent and on the same plateau of power is pretty damn good for a fighting game.

I thought it was 8, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach, Falcon, and Ice Climbers, and even that has controversy to it. Some people think only the first 6 I listed are the viable ones, others may think the first 4, and others just think the Spacies are the only true viable standalone characters.

 

[ryuu seika]

This is kinda like how in League of Legends, you need to level up your account to level 30 and own a certain amount of champions before being allowed to play in ranked, and how you can only use tier 3 runes until level 21. This process puts you through a learning experience that prepares you for the upper plateaus of understanding the game, much like learning mechanics and techniques do. By the time you get good at them, you start to learn and appreciate their application, which improves your mental skill at the game significantly.

Levelling up is well explained and requires zero ability, unlike tech skill which, while it is, tbh, just as unimportant as level when it comes to understanding the game, is never explained to the player at all but does actually constite a difficulty barrier.

An actual Smash equivalent to level limits would be if you needed to buy a tournament licence with 10000 ingame coins. Totally meaningless.

But lets focus on your point in the context of our community, shall we?
This community has been saying for years that the only way to learn to play competitively is to play against real, competition level opponents. From that standpoint, tech skill's difficulty could be considered to actually be preventing new players form learning as, in most cases, it is practiced in a vacuum, often times without even a fully functioning AI opponent.
How does that help anyone?

 

[Senario]

I thought it was 8, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach, Falcon, and Ice Climbers, and even that has controversy to it. Some people think only the first 6 I listed are the viable ones, others may think the first 4, and others just think the Spacies are the only true viable standalone characters.

That and there are outliers which defy the tier list because the game lets you do so much. Like HugS Samus or Amsa's yoshi. It isn't nearly as straightforward as some other games where you choose a single fighter. In Blazblue I only see approx 6-7 characters at high levels of play and the recent game has about the same amount of chars as smash melee. Hakumen, Jin, hazama, kokonoe, taokaka, Valkenhayn, and rarely litchi. Off the top of my head.

 

[Cassio]

Dang, people really have the wrong idea about how technical ability and competitive growth work. Got more to say on that later.

And it depends on what you mean by balanced. At top level play, Melee doesn't seem better than average.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Dang, people really have the wrong idea about how technical ability and competitive growth work. Got more to say on that later.

And it depends on what you mean by balanced. At top level play, Melee doesn't seem better than average.

After playing with Armada, M2K and Zero for the past week, I have to agree. >_<

Below average if you're playing a spacey. lol

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

While not meant to offend anyone, I would say those people havent progressed far enough to understand its scope.

See, that's the kind of attitude that irritates me. What exactly says that because I cannot perform advanced mechanical techniques that I'm not any good in any other part of the game? People like to say that the tech portion of the game doesn't make or break a person, but then turn around and state that if they can't master the tech, they can't master the game and/or characters.

Which is it? Is tech skill the end all to be all? Is it character knowledge and mental acuity? Can someone be good at one and not the other? I just find it a bit insulting that I can play the game for as long and as often as I have, but suddenly, just because I can't wavedash or L-cancel, I suddenly just can't be any good.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

See, that's the kind of attitude that irritates me. What exactly says that because I cannot perform advanced mechanical techniques that I'm not any good in any other part of the game? People like to say that the tech portion of the game doesn't make or break a person, but then turn around and state that if they can't master the tech, they can't master the game and/or characters.

Which is it? Is tech skill the end all to be all? Is it character knowledge and mental acuity? Can someone be good at one and not the other? I just find it a bit insulting that I can play the game for as long and as often as I have, but suddenly, just because I can't wavedash or L-cancel, I suddenly just can't be any good.

You don't have to be "good" at both, but you need to be at least capable of both. Even if you're like Gimpyfish or Hungrybox and rely mostly on mental capability, it still helps to be able to perform technical actions. I learnt this the hard way. I consider myself, even In PM, to be a cerebral player. However, my skill level jumped so much the moment I could do L-cancels and wavedashes, regardless of how often I actually use them (this is especially true for wavedashing, which I haven't incorporated into my play, really).

 

[Ulevo]

I thought it was 8, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach, Falcon, and Ice Climbers, and even that has controversy to it. Some people think only the first 6 I listed are the viable ones, others may think the first 4, and others just think the Spacies are the only true viable standalone characters.

Sorry, 8, you're right.

Levelling up is well explained and requires zero ability, unlike tech skill which, while it is, tbh, just as unimportant as level when it comes to understanding the game, is never explained to the player at all but does actually constite a difficulty barrier.

An actual Smash equivalent to level limits would be if you needed to buy a tournament licence with 10000 ingame coins. Totally meaningless.

But lets focus on your point in the context of our community, shall we?
This community has been saying for years that the only way to learn to play competitively is to play against real, competition level opponents. From that standpoint, tech skill's difficulty could be considered to actually be preventing new players form learning as, in most cases, it is practiced in a vacuum, often times without even a fully functioning AI opponent.
How does that help anyone?

Leveling up in League is not meaningless to understanding the game, it's essential to. You can't theorycraft your way in to success with League, it requires in game experience. The leveling system promotes you to gain that experience. It might seem meaningless in the context of what it does to players who already know how to play, such as those who make a smurf account, but it's an essential tool for teaching newer players how to become accustomed to the game before they decide to see how they stack up competitively against other players online.

And in respect to your second part, not all of mechanics are practiced in a vacuum, and even for players who do practice in training mode, you still need to practice in live matches regardless. I never learned to Wavedash or L-Cancel by going in to training mode and grinding it out. I purposely put myself in to a mental state where I told myself "okay, in this match, I'm going to practice doing this, even if I lose for it" and that way I could play and practice. Even once you get the mechanics down in isolation, you still have to practice it in live scenarios because nerves might make you fumble otherwise, or you might lose because you're applying it randomly or in poor circumstances because you have yet to explore its application.

Dang, people really have the wrong idea about how technical ability and competitive growth work. Got more to say on that later.

And it depends on what you mean by balanced. At top level play, Melee doesn't seem better than average.

After playing with Armada, M2K and Zero for the past week, I have to agree. >_<

Below average if you're playing a spacey. lol

I think this is a poor interpretation of our top players and a neglect to our tournament results. Marth, Fox, Falco, Jigglpuff, Peach, have all placed first in major tournaments. Ice Climbers nearly almost won the last EVO. Sheik and Falcon haven't had as much luck, but they still place highly.

I don't attribute this to character difference so much as I do to the characters that are mained by the top players. Mango can pretty much win with whoever he wants, but it's not like he's playing a better character when he wins with it.

I also don't think this context is very fitting. Top level play is something 99.9999999% of us will never experience as far as competitive Melee is concerned. In regards to high level play, I'm sure these 8 characters are more than relatively balanced among each other, and I'm sure top 5 or top 10 results in major tournaments will support that claim.

See, that's the kind of attitude that irritates me. What exactly says that because I cannot perform advanced mechanical techniques that I'm not any good in any other part of the game? People like to say that the tech portion of the game doesn't make or break a person, but then turn around and state that if they can't master the tech, they can't master the game and/or characters.

Which is it? Is tech skill the end all to be all? Is it character knowledge and mental acuity? Can someone be good at one and not the other? I just find it a bit insulting that I can play the game for as long and as often as I have, but suddenly, just because I can't wavedash or L-cancel, I suddenly just can't be any good.

The reason people are telling you this is because they go hand in hand. You won't find anyone that is a mechanical monster who doesn't understand and have a much firmer grasp of the game than the average player, and you won't find an exceptionally intelligent player that understands the concepts and theory that is average in mechanical skill either. There is an intelligence to being a mechanically gifted player.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Sorry, 8, you're right.



Leveling up in League is not meaningless to understanding the game, it's essential to. You can't theorycraft your way in to success with League, it requires in game experience. The leveling system promotes you to gain that experience. It might seem meaningless in the context of what it does to players who already know how to play, such as those who make a smurf account, but it's an essential tool for teaching newer players how to become accustomed to the game before they decide to see how they stack up competitively against other players online.

And in respect to your second part, not all of mechanics are practiced in a vacuum, and even for players who do practice in training mode, you still need to practice in live matches regardless. I never learned to Wavedash or L-Cancel by going in to training mode and grinding it out. I purposely put myself in to a mental state where I told myself "okay, in this match, I'm going to practice doing this, even if I lose for it" and that way I could play and practice. Even once you get the mechanics down in isolation, you still have to practice it in live scenarios because nerves might make you fumble otherwise, or you might lose because you're applying it randomly or in poor circumstances because you have yet to explore its application.





I think this is a poor interpretation of our top players and a neglect to our tournament results. Marth, Fox, Falco, Jigglpuff, Peach, have all placed first in major tournaments. Ice Climbers nearly almost won the last EVO. Sheik and Falcon haven't had as much luck, but they still place highly.

I don't attribute this to character difference so much as I do to the characters that are mained by the top players. Mango can pretty much win with whoever he wants, but it's not like he's playing a better character when he wins with it.

I also don't think this context is very fitting. Top level play is something 99.9999999% of us will never experience as far as competitive Melee is concerned. In regards to high level play, I'm sure these 8 characters are more than relatively balanced among each other, and I'm sure top 5 or top 10 results in major tournaments will support that claim.

I was just joking, honestly.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

The reason people are telling you this is because they go hand in hand. You won't find anyone that is a mechanical monster who doesn't understand and have a much firmer grasp of the game than the average player, and you won't find an exceptionally intelligent player that understands the concepts and theory that is average in mechanical skill either. There is an intelligence to being a mechanically gifted player.

So this leads me full circle. If the mechanics weren't so hard to perform, I would be a better player. Once again, it is the exact same thing that prevents me from being any good at BlazBlue or P4Arena, only now it comes with the insulting mockery of EVERY OTHER ACTION being incredibly simple to perform. Apparently, Smash Bros is like every other fighting game in existence and I should just throw up my hands now. >:\

I guess it's too much to ask to have a mechanically simple fighting game. Even if the game itself is simple, players will always find ways to complicate things until it becomes just another fighting game requiring fingers of rubber and clockwork timing.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So this leads me full circle. If the mechanics weren't so hard to perform, I would be a better player. Once again, it is the exact same thing that prevents me from being any good at BlazBlue or P4Arena, only now it comes with the insulting mockery of EVERY OTHER ACTION being incredibly simple to perform. Apparently, Smash Bros is like every other fighting game in existence and I should just throw up my hands now. >:\

I guess it's too much to ask to have a mechanically simple fighting game. Even if the game itself is simple, players will always find ways to complicate things until it becomes just another fighting game requiring fingers of rubber and clockwork timing.

Try DIVEEEEKICK. Or just Brawl.

 

[Ulevo]

So this leads me full circle. If the mechanics weren't so hard to perform, I would be a better player. Once again, it is the exact same thing that prevents me from being any good at BlazBlue or P4Arena, only now it comes with the insulting mockery of EVERY OTHER ACTION being incredibly simple to perform. Apparently, Smash Bros is like every other fighting game in existence and I should just throw up my hands now. >:\

I guess it's too much to ask to have a mechanically simple fighting game. Even if the game itself is simple, players will always find ways to complicate things until it becomes just another fighting game requiring fingers of rubber and clockwork timing.

Not that this is really pertinent to the talk, but I've always believed that the only thing holding you back is you. If you really want to be good, you will be. People are not created equal, or given equal opportunity. But if you don't reach your expectations, it's because you didn't want it badly enough, or something else was more important to you, and not because something else got the better of you. It's that simple. But explaining this to you is more or less food for thought as opposed to encouragement because the people who know this intrinsically are the ones who have succeeded, and odds are that having me needing to tell you this in the first place means you won't ever come to this realization.

From this perspective, barriers are irrelevant, and it puts the onus on you to accept them.

 

[HeroMystic]

I guess it's too much to ask to have a mechanically simple fighting game. Even if the game itself is simple, players will always find ways to complicate things until it becomes just another fighting game requiring fingers of rubber and clockwork timing.

I feel if one has enough determination, they can push past their perceived limits and do things they never thought possible. Of course, there are times when reality strikes back, but the biggest detriment is often the person himself. If you believe you will fail, then you will.

That said, I also feel that if you truly believe you aren't cut out for this, then the ones who are, shouldn't be handicapped as an act of mercy.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Wel, physical barriers are a lot harder to work around than mental ones.

 

[RODO]

I think Smash can be simple and still have depth. But you have to be simple in the right ways. For instance when they took out L-cancelling there was still lots of lag on aerials. They didn't make it easier to combo they just took the ability to away. I don't think that's a step in the right direct but instead a step backwards.

 

[Cassio]

L-cancelling makes the game feel smoother which I can understand is important to some people, but the depth it adds is just mechanical.

Performing a wave dash and utilizing it properly are two entirely different things.

Also it's completely on the individual which concept is harder to approach, technical or mental. I actually MUCH PREFER MENTAL, and excel at yomi in fighting games.

I definitely haven't and I certainly don't use it as an excuse or anything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply that that pesky l-cancelling is the one thing that's holding me back, it isn't and I accept it as part of the game, it's what melee and project M is for a lot of people and I respect that.

But if you gave me the opportunity to not have wavedashing and have l-cancelling be automatic in a new game with a fresh community then damn right I'd prefer that.

Honesly, since I'm just not as tech savvy as I wish I was and I'm more accustomed to feel of a keyboard and mouse, I find even trying to pull of AT's difficult. And now that we're talking fractions of a second, that's just too short a time for me. I don't have the muscle memory or skill to easily perform these actions. Given time I could maybe get it figured out but even though I KNOW how to wall jump in Super Metroid it's still ridiculously difficult for me. I take that experience and then look at Smash and I just sigh. A shame all my dextrous capabilities went to my balance.

If having to learn all these different mechanics is required to be competative, it's not for me. I really just do not have the time to commit. Probably gonna get my *** kicked in online, but what else is new?

See, that's the kind of attitude that irritates me. What exactly says that because I cannot perform advanced mechanical techniques that I'm not any good in any other part of the game? People like to say that the tech portion of the game doesn't make or break a person, but then turn around and state that if they can't master the tech, they can't master the game and/or characters.

Which is it? Is tech skill the end all to be all? Is it character knowledge and mental acuity? Can someone be good at one and not the other? I just find it a bit insulting that I can play the game for as long and as often as I have, but suddenly, just because I can't wavedash or L-cancel, I suddenly just can't be any good.

No...again you folks have this backwards. If learning mechanics is too much work then regardless of how tough the mechanics are or are not you're going to hate learning the mental aspects which are more difficult. I know it might not seem that way when youre just starting out but unless youve grasped good fundamentals from another game its always going to be the harder thing. If you honestly enjoy thinking aspects more than the tech stuff shouldnt be that much a hinderance.

On top of that, just removing mechanics doesnt really solve anything either, since good players will rely on the next best option which may or may not be more technically difficult anyways.

Also for the record, its definitely possible to outplay someone more technically skilled then you with just smarts. If you honestly dont emphasize tech skill then you folks should be capable of demonstrating this in your gameplay.

I think this is a poor interpretation of our top players and a neglect to our tournament results. Marth, Fox, Falco, Jigglpuff, Peach, have all placed first in major tournaments. Ice Climbers nearly almost won the last EVO. Sheik and Falcon haven't had as much luck, but they still place highly.

I don't attribute this to character difference so much as I do to the characters that are mained by the top players. Mango can pretty much win with whoever he wants, but it's not like he's playing a better character when he wins with it.

I also don't think this context is very fitting. Top level play is something 99.9999999% of us will never experience as far as competitive Melee is concerned. In regards to high level play, I'm sure these 8 characters are more than relatively balanced among each other, and I'm sure top 5 or top 10 results in major tournaments will support that claim.

I thought I was pretty clear about the context being for top level play. And yes I agree that at high level play things get more balanced. But experience tells me trying to convince anyone that their game is less balanced then they believe is never goes well. I do think between results and top players typically maining or seconding spacies it's fairly evident the game isnt great on balance. Additionally, melee is great but my biggest gripe with it is that spacies harm the basic rock paper scissors of smash (attack, shield, grab). Shield is already a weakish option, but shine's domination on shield polarizes spacies for those capable of using them adequately.

 

[RODO]

L-cancelling makes the game feel smoother which I can understand is important to some people, but the depth it adds is just mechanical.

But again, I can see if they wanted to make comboing people simpler to do but all they did was take out L cancelling and kept landing lag. You lost a mechanic AND depth of comboing all in one swoop.

 

[Cassio]

But again, I can see if they wanted to make comboing people simpler to do but all they did was take out L cancelling and kept landing lag. You lost a mechanic AND depth of comboing all in one swoop.

You do lose mechanical depth forsure, but how does that really affect the way the players interact in a deep way?

Also quick sidenote for the record, smash 4 doesnt have l-canceling but the increased hitstun seems to allow for more combos. Confirmed as a pikachu player where landing uair couldnt combo before but can in this game in spite of the landing lag

Onto player interaction, the popular sentiment with brawl is that without combos theres no real punishment and the game goes hit for hit, but thats far from true. The way I describe it as is a player interaction ratio of punishment (think of it as the amount of options your opponent has over the amount you have). In 64 you got hit and the ratio was essentially 0 (as in your opponent had 0 options and you had a ton). In melee with the addition of DI and seemlingly smaller hitstun the ratio was a bit higher as the opponent had some options after getting hit but not many compared to yours. In brawl the ratio was even higher where the opponent had the most options of all. In spite of this the punishing player always had more options. So if Im playing and Ive succesful navigated the neutral game and hit my opponent, it would be to my detriment to not follow up while my options are greater than my opponents in spite of the risk of having my momentum flipped on me. Its a matter of probability, like poker, sometimes Im going to lose but by playing the game, weighing my opponents options and making educated guesses the punishment game will always be in my favor. So in terms of how the players interact theres not really a loss of depth.

Secondary side note, you can do the same thing in melee when your opponent is outside the range of a true combo but the situation is less common.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Wel, physical barriers are a lot harder to work around than mental ones.

This is simply not the case. Unless you are handicapped, all you have to do is train consistently to overcome physical barriers. More often than not it's the mental barriers that keep you from succeeding, even (perhaps especially) in physically demanding activities. There's no obvious method for overcoming these difficulties; Sometimes you can't.

What I'm about to say may be a bit presumptuous, but I feel You and Ogre_Deity_Link do not have a hard time with the technical aspects of the game due to being born with an inferior body. If you trained and practiced hard enough you wouldn't even need to think about L-Canceling, you'd just do it. I refuse to believe you guys are absolutely incapable of pushing a button within a whole 8th of a second.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

No...again you folks have this backwards. If learning mechanics is too much work then regardless of how tough the mechanics are or are not you're going to hate learning the mental aspects which are more difficult. I know it might not seem that way when youre just starting out but unless youve grasped good fundamentals from another game its always going to be the harder thing. If you honestly enjoy thinking aspects more than the tech stuff shouldnt be that much a hinderance.

Honestly, it's absurd that you are actually asserting that you can fundamentally define the exact process in which a person learns something.

Everyone learns differently, some are incredible in the mental department but not so incredible in the dexterity part of things. Some the other way around. You alone cannot absolutely say which is easier or more difficult for any given person. I also say this as an actual teacher who helps people learn things for a living.

I gave myself as a supreme example, I am ridiculous at strategy games with turns or similar, but give me either a strict time limit or some kind of technical barrier (physically) to contend with while doing that thinking? That actually makes things much harder for me. Experience can take away that nervousness in the hands, as it has for me in high level PvP in games like WoW and Blazblue, but in the beginning it is NEVER the theory craft that holds me back, it's the buttons. This goes ESPECIALLY for other fighting games.

 

[RODO]

Honestly, it's absurd that you are actually asserting that you can fundamentally define the exact process in which a person learns something.

Everyone learns differently, some are incredible in the mental department but not so incredible in the dexterity part of things. Some the other way around. You alone cannot absolutely say which is easier or more difficult for any given person. I also say this as an actual teacher who helps people learn things for a living.

I gave myself as a supreme example, I am ridiculous at strategy games with turns or similar, but give me either a strict time limit or some kind of technical barrier (physically) to contend with while doing that thinking? That actually makes things much harder for me. Experience can take away that nervousness in the hands, as it has for me in high level PvP in games like WoW and Blazblue, but in the beginning it is NEVER the theory craft that holds me back, it's the buttons. This goes ESPECIALLY for other fighting games.

I like to think that most people can accomplish something if they hard enough. There is a guy who plays Street fighter and smash using his face and tongue to hit buttons because he can't use his hands. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I like to think that most people can accomplish something if they hard enough. There is a guy who plays Street fighter and smash using his face and tongue to hit buttons because he can't use his hands. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not implying that certain things are impossible, just that it can vary in difficulty depending on the person and thing.

 

[RODO]

I'm not implying that certain things are impossible, just that it can vary in difficulty depending on the person and thing.

That's true, but people blow difficulty out of proportion most of the time. Usually "that's too hard for me to do" actually equates to "I just don't feel like learning how to do that." Making the argument that the game should be more inviting would be better than the game should be easier. I like to think most humans are capable of pushing buttons and give them the benefit of the doubt. I just think it's negative to say otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

That's true, but people blow difficulty out of proportion most of the time. Usually "that's too hard for me to do" actually equates to "I just don't feel like learning how to do that." Making the argument that the game should be more inviting would be better than the game should be easier. I like to think most humans are capable of pushing buttons and give them the benefit of the doubt. I just think it's negative to say otherwise.

Well that is generally the same argument.

Easier IS more inviting. Either way you spin it, melee tech elitists rage.

 

[Cassio]

Honestly, it's absurd that you are actually asserting that you can fundamentally define the exact process in which a person learns something.

Everyone learns differently, some are incredible in the mental department but not so incredible in the dexterity part of things. Some the other way around. You alone cannot absolutely say which is easier or more difficult for any given person. I also say this as an actual teacher who helps people learn things for a living.

I gave myself as a supreme example, I am ridiculous at strategy games with turns or similar, but give me either a strict time limit or some kind of technical barrier (physically) to contend with while doing that thinking? That actually makes things much harder for me. Experience can take away that nervousness in the hands, as it has for me in high level PvP in games like WoW and Blazblue, but in the beginning it is NEVER the theory craft that holds me back, it's the buttons. This goes ESPECIALLY for other fighting games.

It's really not, but I can understand how the thought is distasteful to you. Keep in mind this isnt school. If smashboards got a dollar for ever person who came across smash thinking "Id own people at this game if only the tech skill werent so difficult because Im such a smart competitor" we could fund a massive tournament. But its not true. Take a smart high level player and prevent them from doing any AT's and itd still take a year or two before a novice would be capable of challenging them. You cant escape the fact that its hard. Once in a blue moon you have those prodigies that can understand it pretty quick, but even then theyre usually at least as quick at gaining the tech skill too. In any case, the vast majority of the time tech skill is an important crutch to the novice. The video I presented is the only known example I have of someone who's intelligence of the game surpasses his technical ability. My play is dragged down by my tech too, but I also had prior experience in another game which I mentioned as a caveat earlier.

 

[ryuu seika]

@ Ulevo : You can easily reach level 30 or learn every input with no understanding of how play works. All they do is force the player to play, not to learn and mastering tech skill isn't even all that conductive to game playing.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

It's really not, but I can understand how the thought is distasteful to you. Keep in mind this isnt school. If smashboards got a dollar for ever person who came across smash thinking "Id own people at this game if only the tech skill werent so difficult because Im such a smart competitor" we could fund a massive tournament. But its not true. Take a smart high level player and prevent them from doing any AT's and itd still take a year or two before a novice would be capable of challenging them. You cant escape the fact that its hard. Once in a blue moon you have those prodigies that can understand it pretty quick, but even then theyre usually at least as quick at gaining the tech skill too. In any case, the vast majority of the time tech skill is an important crutch to the novice. The video I presented is the only known example I have of someone who's intelligence of the game surpasses his technical ability. My play is dragged down by my tech too, but I also had prior experience in another game which I mentioned as a caveat earlier.

Well I agree that NO MATTER WHAT it's going to take time to compete with people who, quite literally almost every day, put in the time.

While, physically, they are just button presses, it's still just much more than that. It's the corroboration of both those button presses IN CONJUNCTION with a racing mind. Performing a wave dash. Simple. Performing a wave dash against a very fast aggressing player known for rarely losing. Not so simple at all until you have plenty of exposure to fighting them or you are just some kind of savant when it comes to pressure repression.

The difference matters greatly in this case. Smash (fighting games in general) are a combination of reflexes AND mental tricks, but it's not like one doesn't affect the other. They are essentially intertwined. You can't really improve either game without somewhat improving the other by virtue of that connection.

Where the difference lies between each person is which they excel better at training. I've fought people who wave dash all over the stage but get baited like a fish. I've also fought players who barely move, and give me a hard time and read me like a book.

 

[Hong]

For the sake of keeping discussion of like-topics condensed, further commenting on the motor difficulty involved in Smash Bros can be done in @ SKM_NeoN 's thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-is-supposed-to-be-simple.358925/

While it is a newer thread, it more deliberately encompasses a topic not addressed in other competitive-related threads. The article this thread was originally dedicated to has long fallen to the wayside, and the topics it discusses are already in existing threads. If you would like to address any of the posts in this thread after it has closed, you are encouraged to use quotes or user-tagging functions (eg. @ Hong ) to keep the discussion going.

And of course if you feel there is a reason for this thread to be opened again, you are welcome to message me.