Media Chimes in on Competitive Smash (Prima Games)

[TheMagicalKuja]

Still no. Unless there's some simple way of making an invincible roll you can attack out of work, it will always be no.



The man can't read a lick of English. He might not even know he's upseting competitive players overseas.

Ummm, wavedash isn't invincible. You're actually asking for a roll you can sacrifice your invulnerability in order to attack out of.

Which sounds cool to me despite not being a tourneygoer, but apparently it's too complicated. Ouch.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Well this thread has gone horribly off track. What was a discussion about possibly making tweaks to this game to better cater to competitive players has turned into Melee vs. Brawl arguments, arguments about the future of Melee, arguments about Melee's complexity, negative impressions of Smash 4, and people being bashed for having opinions.

Guess this is just a bad day on Smashboards.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Well this thread has gone horribly off track. What was a discussion about possibly making tweaks to this game to better cater to competitive players has turned into Melee vs. Brawl arguments, arguments about the future of Melee, arguments about Melee's complexity, negative impressions of Smash 4, and people being bashed for having opinions.

Guess this is just a bad day on Smashboards.

Bad time period actually. It's Melee vs. Brawl all over again. Once the game comes out, I'm sure everything will go back to normal.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well this thread has gone horribly off track. What was a discussion about possibly making tweaks to this game to better cater to competitive players has turned into Melee vs. Brawl arguments, arguments about the future of Melee, arguments about Melee's complexity, negative impressions of Smash 4, and people being bashed for having opinions.

Guess this is just a bad day on Smashboards.

For Smashboards, it's tuesday.

 

[EPsilon933]

For me it's a question of do I even want to get better. Do I want to spend the necessary time and effort to succeed at Smash? Sure, it may have its rewards, but are they ones I care about? Is that time better spent somewhere else? This isn't developing some skill to get myself that promotion at work, it's spending hours trying to learn to play a video game at the community standard. I love Smash but I'm not sure I love it enough to want to overcome that difficulty barrier.

Smash is a fighting game that you don't need to go to the lab and train for. It's about movement and prediction far more than about technical ability. You learn strategy by just playing the game with people. Even in Melee. Once you've got the essential techs like l canceling, wavedashing, and character-specific stuff, you're good to go

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Kinda funny how you mention chess, the game that can be played as slow, or as fast as you like.
There is a Melee analogy somewhere in here, but I'd rather not contribute any more to this repetitive argument that never finds closure due to a lack of empathy.

EDIT: I'll share a tip though, putting the word "objectively" in front of an opinion doesn't actually make your opinion objective.

I'm curiously looking for where I used the word "objectively" in that post yet am failing to find it.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Bad time period actually. It's Melee vs. Brawl all over again. Once the game comes out, I'm sure everything will go back to normal.

I hope you're right. Guess time will tell.

 

[RODO]

For me it's a question of do I even want to get better. Do I want to spend the necessary time and effort to succeed at Smash? Sure, it may have its rewards, but are they ones I care about? Is that time better spent somewhere else? This isn't developing some skill to get myself that promotion at work, it's spending hours trying to learn to play a video game at the community standard. I love Smash but I'm not sure I love it enough to want to overcome that difficulty barrier.

But you don't have to get better, that's the whole point. I went through the whole gamecube era and most of the wii's before I even knew there was a competitive Smash scene. Didn't know about wavedashing or most advanced techs. You're acting as if you will be forced to do something just because it is in the game. Don't want to put in hours trying to learn something? Then don't do it, but don't discourage the people who do.

 

[ryuu seika]

Smash 4 with wavedashing might be better, but it might not be extremely crucial. It just opens up ground spacing options which open up strategies. The biggest problem with Smash 4 from what we can see is the excessive attack lag. It makes approaching too risky. If that were fixed along with a little bit more physics tweaking, the game would certainly be good enough (imo)

Yes, wavedashing would give spacing options and thus open up more potential strategies but are there not other ways of doing so?

As for lag, I'd forgotten about that complaint and won't fully grasp it unless I experience it first hand so I do not wish to comment.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Smash is a fighting game that you don't need to go to the lab and train for. It's about movement and prediction far more than about technical ability. You learn strategy by just playing the game with people. Even in Melee. Once you've got the essential techs like l canceling, wavedashing, and character-specific stuff, you're good to go

Funny how that never came up in all the time I played Smash. It's almost like I never tried to tweak out the physics engine or bothered to look up these AT's onine. In fact, I'd daresay I was having a lot of fun playing the game without worrying about all that.

Edit: RODO, how am I infringing on people's rights to play how they want to? All I did was disagree that with the idea that it's always worthing trying to beat the difficulty barrier so you can play competetively.

 

[EPsilon933]

Yes, wavedashing would give spacing options and thus open up more potential strategies but are there not other ways of doing so?

As for lag, I'd forgotten about that complaint and won't fully grasp it unless I experience it first hand so I do not wish to comment.

Would there have to be a wave-dashing replacement?

Funny how that never came up in all the time I played Smash. It's almost like I never tried to tweak out the physics engine or bothered to look up these AT's onine. In fact, I'd daresay I was having a lot of fun playing the game without worrying about all that.

I once had a roommate in college that I played Melee with an hour a night, 5 nights a week. I never taught him anything and we just played the game for the fun of playing it. He got pretty good after only 3.5 months of playing him. So good that when he was on Christmas break, he was the one beating his friends all the time by a clear margin, unlike before

Playing to win and playing for fun aren't as mutually exclusive as some might think they are

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I once had a roommate in college that I played Melee with an hour a night, 5 nights a week. I never taught him anything and we just played the game for the fun of playing it. He got pretty good after only 3.5 months of playing him. So good that when he was on Christmas break, he was the one beating his friends all the time by a clear margin, unlike before

Playing to win and playing for fun aren't as mutually exclusive as some might think they are

And I never said it was. But I also never learned L cancelling, wave dashing, etc. And have never cared to. And I still enjoyed the game. I don't see the absence of advanced techniques as a bad thing. Sure, they can be fun and beneficial to the game but they aren't something I'm going to spend hours practicing. And I won't lose sleep raging that I can't cancel out all movement lag.

 

[ryuu seika]

Would there have to be a wave-dashing replacement?

Nope. Smash doesn't need extra movement options per se and, as I have mentioned, I was perfectly happy playing no WD Melee until I met this community and they told me I was useless at the game. I still felt I had full roam of the stage and the ability to do whatever I liked with my character so the extra movement wasn't needed.
Movement options are a case of "hey, wouldn't that be fun?" for me, not a must at all. I can, however, see that much of the community is missing them and I can understand it. As such, I've proposed a logical compromise.

My suggestion of forward rolls and pass throughs out of walk/run animations would serve as a way to get through those more inevitable hits and retaliate but not allow you to back off to safety, allowing a crafty foe to bait you into an all to predictable position.

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm curiously looking for where I used the word "objectively" in that post yet am failing to find it.

I wasn't directing that towards you.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ummm, wavedash isn't invincible. You're actually asking for a roll you can sacrifice your invulnerability in order to attack out of.

Which sounds cool to me despite not being a tourneygoer, but apparently it's too complicated. Ouch.

He was taking about turning rolls into Wavedashing, but I still want rolls. A compromise, combining both, would be hilariously broken.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I don't understand why this higher level of Smash seems to bother people so much. No matter what techniques they may add - Smash is always going to remain a game with low barriers-of-entry.

Side Point: If Smash 4's online doesn't suck, and it's skill based match-making is up to snuff - you'll still have thousands of other people to play with who are around your skill level.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't understand why this higher level of Smash seems to bother people so much. No matter what techniques they may add - Smash is always going to remain a game with low barriers-of-entry.

Side Point: If Smash 4's online doesn't suck, and it's skill based match-making is up to snuff - you'll still have thousands of other people to play with who are around your skill level.

Knowing Sakurai, it'll probably just divide people who shield and those who don't. He said in the direct it'd be a simple system, after all.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Knowing Sakurai, it'll probably just divide people who shield and those who don't. He said in the direct it'd be a simple system, after all.

Well, I've always hoped that since Namco Bandai ( or Bandai Namco ) is working on Smash it'll mean they are taking the reigns of all that online stuff. Since Nintendo doesn't seem to ever want to create a fully fleshed out online experience.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, I've always hoped that since Namco Bandai ( or Bandai Namco ) is working on Smash it'll mean they are taking the reigns of all that online stuff. Since Nintendo doesn't seem to ever want to create a fully fleshed out online experience.

We already know there won't be 'normal' ranking systems, so Sakurai is obviously in charge.

 

[EPsilon933]

TTT2 and SC2 HD Online have pretty good net code, I've heard. Hopefully Smash 4's is close to as good

 

[Ulevo]

I don't know what peep's are talking about in here 'cause I'm not going to read it all, but regarding the whole making rolls work like wavedashing with invincibility thing, the idea with rolls is that they give you a way to opt out of a positional disadvantage safely if applied correctly at the cost of being predictable and easy to punish because they're telegraphed and have long recovery, usually. Wavedashing was much more efficient than rolling because of its speed and the ability to act out of it, but it didn't give you invulnerability, so there were trade offs on which one was better to use in each situation. Combining the two would be silly because then you essentially have a technique with no trade offs.

 

[D-idara]

The game definitely needs some work though. It already seems to be in the same vein as brawl which rewards defensive play more. There is nothing wrong with playing defensive but if it's too powerful then people abuse it and in turn slow down the game.

That grand finals at e3 where Zero camped for the win and people boo'ed in the crowd just goes to show what people think of the strat (and the crowd was filled with mostly just casual smashers). We know that Nintendo is already trying to get Smash 4 on the MLG circuit but you can't have a super defensive game and an exciting to watch one as well in most cases. At some point you have to reward people for getting hits. Just something as simple as being able to dash dance or cancel your dash with a crouch would go a long way. Not even asking for wavedashing here.

The people booing Zero were just pathetic, to tell the truth.

 

[LancerStaff]

The people booing Zero were just pathetic, to tell the truth.

Buncha filthy casuals!

JK

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

We already know there won't be 'normal' ranking systems, so Sakurai is obviously in charge.

I just wanna believe...

 

[D-idara]

Buncha filthy casuals!

JK

:/

Well, I've always hoped that since Namco Bandai ( or Bandai Namco ) is working on Smash it'll mean they are taking the reigns of all that online stuff. Since Nintendo doesn't seem to ever want to create a fully fleshed out online experience.

Mario Kart 8, Super Mario Strikers Charged, Splatoon...

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

:/

Mario Kart 8, Super Mario Strikers Charged, Splatoon...

I haven't played Mario Kart 8 so I can't say much for it - and Splatoon ain't out.

But most of the Nintendo online games I've played still pale in comparison to the likes of Monster Hunter, Halo, Dead or Alive ( at least I remember this one having a good online experience ).

 

[LancerStaff]

:/

Mario Kart 8, Super Mario Strikers Charged, Splatoon...

What's wrong with my joke? IDK, the very fact that you acknowledge that SSB has a defensive game makes you more 'hardcore' then the rest.

 

[RODO]

The people booing Zero were just pathetic, to tell the truth.

Agreed, he just used the clock to his advantage.

 

[Black Hayato PTA]

I dunno I feel a lot of these discussions come from people who didn't actively do melee tournaments (or any tournaments) to begin with. Back when melee was newer a lot of people couldn't wavedash or hadn't found a way to make it totally practical in a match. L - Canceling, dash dancing, chain grabs, grabbing out of shield, edge guarding were the things that were probably used the most. Once people got more comfortable the meta was high movement using wavedashing for platform and stage traversal and additional mind games. It is also very needed for space animals because its literally needed to combo from shines. Other characters don't -need- wave dashing as much like shiek or even marth (it's very very useful but you can just do wide dash dances aka ken dash).

I say that to say this: We have no idea how Smash 4 plays or how practical any of its movement options are or if there's some new advanced technique to be discovered. Why you ask? Because the game is not finished and no one can even discover the most basic **** in a day. Day 1 melee didn't look like the melee we have now and those who played smash 4 approached it with old mentality in mind vs trying to explore new technology.

More important than movement options are hit stun, follow ups after grabs, too far blast zones, recovery seeming too safe, lack of punishment for rolls, too much landing lag on some moves, advanced ledge games, and other things. Movement is important, but wavedashing per se isn't. I think dash dancing and being able to change your pivot positions would be sufficient and with the other stuff I mentioned added, you could have a whole new type of game to play that might still be aggressive with the new added nuances we haven't gotten to play with.

While brawl is very competitive, it pace is too slow and, for those that aren't hardcore to that following, is very hard to watch. This isn't an opinion as brawl itself has a very low viewership vs Melee and Project: M. Even in the FGC Marvel vs Capcom 3 has the highest viewership due to its aggression and flashy gameplay. It is exciting to watch. Same reason Ultra Street Fighter 4 departed from vanillas zone based combat. Hell even casuals hate watching camping and slow play (see: Zero at Smash Bros Invitational reactions) even though it's super legit strat and requires a specialized skill set.

But, why do views matter! This is something you might be wondering. Views matter because with them you can get ad revenue and sponsorships from various companies which can help pay for venues and expand your tournament region. Tournaments are not free and they have to be hosted at a venue to accommodate those players (along with gamecube / wii and tv setups some of them purchase and provide). Those venues can cost money and some tournament organizers pay out of pocket for the love of the game, but if the community were to expand it needs those higher up companies to support them OR a dedicated fan base. If there isn't enough fans / viewers, the base will not be able to support a larger scene. ALSO, if the contention does not seem challenged enough or it feels like the games ceiling gets hit very early in terms of improvement, it causes fatigue among the tourne goers causing them to quit. If there is no competition, there will be no tournaments despite how many fans there are (see: skull girls)

In closing, we need to support Smash 4 on release to see what kind of game it actually is vs trying to push it into a bracket before it actually finishes being balanced. We have facts that they are catering to a tournament based setting as well as a casual one which before, during brawl, the focus was to actually close the skill gap and neuter the tourne scene so that mentality shift in development is a huge step up. Be vocal about what you think should be improved, but don't be ignorant enough to suggest the game should just revert to melee. Let it be its own identity but still aggressive enough to be competitive. We don't need old techs back but we do need mechanics in game that allows us to be free enough to play how we like and give us the abilities to push ourselves infinitely just like Melee and M. Also, remember Melee isn't perfect. It's got horrible balance issues which is why Project M has been increasing in popularity recently. Variety and freedom of combat is king!

Oh, one more thing. I've been seeing some casual people saying that they wouldn't miss the mechanics or don't bother learning them anyway. If that is the case, doesn't that mean if they were included nothing would change? The only thing that would be different is that there's more options instead of less. The game itself doesn't change at all for you so why would you want to take options away? If you feel like these techs undermine the amount of time you've put into the game personally, than the cold reality is that even without them the top players are going to eclipse anyone who doesn't put in the time whether its 1 button all items on high w/ hazards or regular melee mechanics. You can't escape practicing so why take away tools for those who want to enjoy the game for decades and still improve? Conversely, tourne players, why not give the game a fair shot when it comes out and actually find out what it really is about vs judging without even playing it (some **** talk even without doing as little as trying the demo which I luckily did get to play).

Haha this is long but its very exhaustive and I hope people understand more about what we actually need to do as a community for this game.

 

[DakotaBonez]

So people are mad at wavedashing and dash dancing in Melee because it had no consequence but physics exploits in brawl like DACUS or platform cancelling are fine?
Well footstooling in brawl had no consequence and it left the opponent wide open for Marth's meteor smash and other attacks. it gives you a boost and pushes your opponent down. Also footstooling in brawl was difficult to execute , Just because it's a simple button press doesn't mean its not difficult, you had to press the jump button in that sweet spot like with jigglypuffs down special. You can even use it while your opponent is attacking, you're invincible to alot of attacks while your mashing the jump button. If anything footstooling needs to be nerfed.
I've seen people suck with wavedashing and dash dancing, they input it but don't use it to effectively put themselves in a good position, same with footstooling.
The metagame needs more footstooling.

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that I hate it when people hate on physics exploits in melee but take every opportunity to defend brawl's metagame by talking about its physics exploits like DACUS and platform cancelling. Either hate on all physics exploits or except em all!

 

[DakotaBonez]

I dunno I feel a lot of these discussions come from people who didn't actively do melee tournaments (or any tournaments) to begin with. Back when melee was newer a lot of people couldn't wavedash or hadn't found a way to make it totally practical in a match. L - Canceling, dash dancing, chain grabs, grabbing out of shield, edge guarding were the things that were probably used the most. Once people got more comfortable the meta was high movement using wavedashing for platform and stage traversal and additional mind games. It is also very needed for space animals because its literally needed to combo from shines. Other characters don't -need- wave dashing as much like shiek or even marth (is very very useful but you can just do wide dash dances aka ken dash).

I say that to say this: We have no idea how Smash 4 plays or how practical any of its movement options are or if there's some new advanced technique to be discovered. Why you ask? Because the game is not finished and no one can even discover the most basic **** in a day. Day 1 melee didn't look like the melee we have now and those who played approached it with old mentality in mind vs trying to explore new technology.

More important than movement options are hit stun, follow ups after grabs, too far blast zones, recovery seeming too safe, lack of punishment for rolls, too much landing lag on some moves, advanced ledge games, and other things. Movement is important, but wavedashing per se isn't. I think dash dancing and being able to change your pivot positions would be sufficient and with the other stuff added I mentioned you could have a whole new type of game to play that might still be aggressive with the new added nuances we haven't gotten to play with.

While brawl is very competitive, it pace is too slow and, for those that aren't hardcore to that following, is very hard to watch. This isn't an opinion as brawl itself has a very low viewership vs Melee and Project: M. Even in the FGC Marvel vs Capcom 3 has the highest viewership due to its aggression and flashy gameplay. It is exciting to watch. Same reason Ultra Street Fighter 4 departed from vanillas zone based combat. Hell even casuals hate watching camping and slow play (see: Zero at Smash Bros Invitational reactions) even though it's super legit strat and requires a specialized skill set.

But, why do views matter! This is something you might be wondering. Views matter because with them you can get ad revenue and sponsorships from various companies which can help pay for venues and expand your tournament region. Tournaments are not free and they have to be hosted at a venue to accommodate those players (along with gamecube / wii and tv setups some of them purchase and provide). Those venues can cost money and some tournament organizers pay out of pocket for the love of the game, but if the community were to expand it needs those higher up companies to support them OR a dedicated fan base. If there isn't enough fans / viewers the base will not able to support a larger scene. ALSO, if the contention does not seem challenged enough or it feels like the games ceiling gets hit very early in terms of improvement it causes fatigue among the tourne goers causing them to quit. If there is no competition, there will be no tournaments despite how many fans there are (see: skull girls)

In closing, we need to support Smash 4 on release to see what kind of game it actually is vs trying to push it into a bracket before it actually finishes being balanced. We have facts that they are catering to a tournament based setting as well as a casual one which before, during brawl, the focus was to actually close the skill gap and neuter the tourne scene so that's a huge step up. Be vocal about what you think should be improved, but don't be ignorant enough to suggest the game should just revert to melee. Let it be its own identity but still aggressive enough to be competitive. We don't need old techs back we need mechanics in game that allows us to be free enough to play how we like and give us the abilities to push ourselves infinitely just like Melee and M. Also, remember Melee isn't perfect. It's got horrible balance issues which is why Project M has been increasing in popularity recently. Variety and freedom of combat is king!

Oh, one more thing. I've been seeing some casual people saying that they wouldn't miss the mechanics or don't bother learning them anyway. If that is the case, doesn't that mean if they were included nothing would change? The only thing that would be different is that there's more options instead of less. The game itself doesn't change at all for you so why would you want to take options away? If you feel like these techs undermine the amount of time you've put into the game personally, than the cold reality is that even without them the top players are going to eclipse anyone who doesn't put in the time whether its 1 button all items on high w/ hazards or regular melee mechanics. You can't escape practicing so why take away tools for those who want to enjoy the game for decades and still improve? Conversely, tourne players, why not give the game a fair shot when it comes out and actually find out what it really is about vs judging without even playing it (some **** talk even without doing as little as trying the demo which I luckily did get to play).

Haha this is long but its very exhaustive and I hope people understand more about what we actually need to do as a community for this game.

Everything you said is everything that I wish I could have communicated. Spread this message.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

So people are mad at wavedashing and dash dancing in Melee because it had no consequence but physics exploits in brawl like DACUS or platform cancelling are fine?
Well footstooling in brawl had no consequence and it left the opponent wide open for Marth's meteor smash and other attacks. it gives you a boost and pushes your opponent down. Also footstooling in brawl was difficult to execute , Just because it's a simple button press doesn't mean its not difficult, you had to press the jump button in that sweet spot like with jigglypuffs down special. You can even use it while your opponent is attacking, you're invincible to alot of attacks while your mashing the jump button. If anything footstooling needs to be nerfed.
I've seen people suck with wavedashing and dash dancing, they input it but don't use it to effectively put themselves in a good position, same with footstooling.
The metagame needs more footstooling.

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that I hate it when people hate on physics exploits in melee but take every opportunity to defend brawl's metagame by talking about its physics exploits like DACUS and platform cancelling. Either hate on all physics exploits or except em all!

I don't like physics exploits in ANY game. Brawl included.

 

[Black Hayato PTA]

Everything you said is everything that I wish I could have communicated. Spread this message.

Thank you and I'll try. I've just been seeing the same stuff over and over and I hope this post helps people change their approach to this game. Post it anywhere you like to help people get it haha.

 

[Cassio]

Smash is a fighting game that you don't need to go to the lab and train for. It's about movement and prediction far more than about technical ability. You learn strategy by just playing the game with people. Even in Melee. Once you've got the essential techs like l canceling, wavedashing, and character-specific stuff, you're good to go

Not pertinent to the topic exactly, but all my experience and info points otherwise. You can become OK at smash with little work but to be a true competitor you need to put work in no matter which game you play. I genuinely is a lot of time and effort, I think minimum ~2 years to compete at high level if youre just jumping into the scene from a casual level.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

People keep saying that Brawl creates a situation where approaching is too risky...

While I understand Brawl matches tend to look starkly different from Melee matches, I don't see how approaching someone improperly in Melee is any less "risky".

 

[EPsilon933]

Not pertinent to the topic exactly, but all my experience and info points otherwise. You can become OK at smash with little work but to be a true competitor you need to put work in no matter which game you play. I genuinely is a lot of time and effort, I think minimum ~2 years to compete at high level if youre just jumping into the scene from a casual level.

I think we both had different meanings for "good to go". What I meant was good enough to know what's going on, what to do, and put up a bit of a fight. As you keep playing the game, you'll learn the more important part (strategy) and you'll improve well enough. You just won't improve at fast rate. You don't have to win to play to win

 

[Ulevo]

People keep saying that Brawl creates a situation where approaching is too risky...

While I understand Brawl matches tend to look starkly different from Melee matches, I don't see how approaching someone improperly in Melee is any less "risky".

There are more ways to outplay your opponent from an offensive perspective. There's nothing to outplay in Brawl when shields are broken and a single grab means you receive a morally debilitating infinite.

LancerStaff isn't allowed to reply to this because I'm generalizing and he seems to not know what that means.

Also, for those of you who are talking about mechanics with "no downside", opportunity cost is still a cost.

 

[Renji64]

._. i don't want smash 4 to be like brawl where you tune into a stream and it is boring to watch and the commentators have to try to compensate for the lack of action going on screen. ._. look at those hard reads he just stood there...and forward smashed.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There are more ways to outplay your opponent from an offensive perspective. There's nothing to outplay in Brawl when shields are broken and a single grab means you receive a morally debilitating infinite.

Please elaborate on the wealth of "ways" to outplay your opponent from an offensive perspective not present in Brawl. It's the same dang stuff. Remember, I'm talking about approaching. I'm not generalizing.

For almost all intents and purposes the only reason Brawl can be campy and "hit-and-run"-ish is because of the lack of hit-stun and as a result, a lack of combo strings that aren't interrupted by a mashed neutral by the noob getting combo'd. This in turn makes people prefer to play campy so they can minimize the situations in which their inflicted damage is punished-reflected right back on to them.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff isn't allowed to reply to this because I'm generalizing and he seems to not know what that means.

*sigh* Have a little faith, why don't ya?