Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Kofu]

These numbers seem to coincide with what I'm getting in game:


bowser 1.463359952
dk 1.314319968
dedede 1.271999955
charizard 1.229200006
ganon 1.197999954
samus 1.149199963
? 1.122460008
bowser jr 1.121999979
rob 1.115200043
ike 1.104879975
wario 1.104760051
link 1.103880048
yoshi 1.087520003
falcon 1.085999966
? 1.077600002
shulk 1.06400001
megaman 1.06400001
lucario 1.029999971
? 1.029999971
1.027999997
mario 1.024000049
dr mario 1.024000049
luigi 1.013200045
villager1.011600018
dark pit 1.007959962
pit 1.007959962
wii fit 1.006639957
greninja 0.9972000122
? 0.9959999919
sonic 0.9950000048
pacman 0.9918000102
robin 0.9856399894
diddy kong 0.9800000191
toon link 0.9790599942
ness 0.9745399952
? 0.9739999771
marth 0.9599999785
lucina 0.9599999785
palutena 0.9584000111
duck hunt 0.9562000036
? 0.9455999732
peach 0.924399972
sheik (lol its better than zelda's) 0.9060000181
zelda 0.8848000169
mac 0.8727999926
falco 0.8712000251
zss 0.8659999967
fox 0.84799999
mk 0.8471999764
pikachu 0.8396000266
olimar 0.8259999752
rosalini 0.8233399987
kirby 0.8072000146
game and watch 0.794968009
? 0.7639999986
jiggs 0.7080000043

anyone who wants to test these out is more than welcome if they want to confirm for me that these are indeed item toss strengths

i have to go to bed soon (dog)

Edit: Smash thrown capsule from bowser to charizard all does 19.xx%

same thing from ganon down does 18%

jiggs does like 16% with smash thrown capsule

SO I THINK THESE ARE THE NUMBERS

Looks like it's almost a 1-to-1 with weight. lol.

I was actually referring to how fast the items are thrown (unless those numbers are that???) but sleep first.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Looks like it's almost a 1-to-1 with weight. lol.

I was actually referring to how fast the items are thrown (unless those numbers are that???) but sleep first.

I'm pretty sure this is the item speed multiplier. Maybe.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Hey all. Do we know how long all the grab release (air and ground) animations take in this game? Are those time lengths dependent on who grabbed you?

 

[Lavani]

It's universally 29f for ground release and the releasing animation, and 39f for air releases.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sorry this is still probably not relevant but I wanted to share some of my testing as documentation that what I posted above IS indeed a item throwing multiplier:

Test subject Lucario smash throwing a banana gave these results:

7
14
21
28
35
43
50
57
64
71
78
86
93
100
107
114
121
128

Megaman on throwing his 5th banana does 36% total, compared to Lucario's 35%. Mario on the other hand does 42% on his 6th banana throw compared to Lucario and Mega Man's 6th and he does 8% on the 7th.

 

[Dagon97]

How is rage implemented in the knock back formula? How would one know what number to plug in?

 

[Lavani]

How is rage implemented in the knock back formula? How would one know what number to plug in?

It's a multiplier on the final number. If a move has 100KB in a given situation, it'll have 115KB at max rage (150%). I'm not sure how the scaling works though, so I only know x1 for no rage and x1.15 for max rage.

 

[Pikabunz]

Isn't max rage 1.3?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's much closer to 15% iirc

 

[Dagon97]

What % is minimum rage? I have heard in the low 30%'s or 50%.
I am pretty sure max rage is 150% right?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rage starts happening at about 40%

 

[Pikabunz]

So where did 1.15 come from? I got close to 1.3 when I tested.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The launch speed numbers on 3DS were for the most part increased by 15% over various tests when the game first came out. I guess no one looked in depth into it afterwards.

 

[Lavani]

Min is somewhere in the 30%s (would bring up a post supporting this but apparently I can't search on phone)

Max is 150%

So where did 1.15 come from? I got close to 1.3 when I tested.

Tests I did at release with various moves increased launch speed by ~1.15 when I tried them at 150%, and that math's worked out reliably for anything I've tried applying it to. Were you comparing kill percents to get 1.3?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wait we're being ********

Try using my knockback calculator to measure maximum rage ko percents on a move and compare it to when it normally KOs

http://qldsmash.com/aeromaths2.html

 

[Pikabunz]

I used launch distance on the Wii U to compare.

 

[Lavani]

Wait we're being ********

Try using my knockback calculator to measure maximum rage ko percents on a move and compare it to when it normally KOs

http://qldsmash.com/aeromaths2.html

I did this when you first linked it, but testing again with Mewtwo uthrow vs Mario on 3DS FD:

0% 142%: ~182.79KB
150% 105%: ~158.98KB x1.15 = 182.83

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I did this when you first linked it, but testing again with Mewtwo uthrow vs Mario on 3DS FD:

0% 142%: ~182.79KB
150% 105%: ~158.98KB x1.15 = 182.83

Welp, that's pretty much confirmed.

You know we could do this with various percent ranges and figure out a base scale of Rage right?

That would be a worthwhile topic for you to look into, Lavani .

 

[Lavani]

but moooooooooooooooooooooooom

ok fine, I was going to work on something else but I don't even remember what so I'll kill some time on this tonight.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ur teh best
together wii will uncuver all of sekurai's seacrets

 

[Pikabunz]

Yeah, I got 1.15 when I tested using the calculator. But I guess that means launch distance is calculated differently?

 

[Dagon97]

Forenote: We need to use as a baseline instead of because 100 is way easier to work with than 98. Why the do people still use mario as a baseline.

's Uthrow kills at 137% with 0% rage

Once I get back home I will test when rage starts I know it is not 30% - 34% because I have tested it already

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It doesn't matter what character you use. A baseline doesn't exist when weight is arbitrary.

 

[Lavani]

Sakurai why can't we just set handicap in 10% increments you dork

% | % | Rage multiplier
0 | 142 | 1.00
30 | 142 | 1.00
38 | 141 | 1.003
40 | 141 | 1.003
50 | 137 | 1.018
60 | 134 | 1.029
80 | 127 | 1.056
100 | 120 | 1.084
125 | 112 | 1.118
150 | 105 | 1.150

Seems pretty linear. About 3.5% earlier KOs per 10% rage. Guessing it starts from 35% and just doesn't scale up enough with these testing conditions until 38%.

Yeah, I got 1.15 when I tested using the calculator. But I guess that means launch distance is calculated differently?

Launch speed is like 0.64 what KB is on 3DS

Wii U calculates the numbers differently and I don't think it does so in as nice a manner.

Forenote: We need to use as a baseline instead of because 100 is way easier to work with than 98. Why the do people still use mario as a baseline.

's Uthrow kills at 137% with 0% rage

Once I get back home I will test when rage starts I know it is not 30% - 34% because I have tested it already

EDIT: what aero said

 

[Dagon97]

Sakurai why can't we just set handicap in 10% increments you dork

% | % | Rage multiplier
0 | 142 | 1.00
30 | 142 | 1.00
38 | 141 | 1.003
40 | 141 | 1.003
50 | 137 | 1.018
60 | 134 | 1.029
80 | 127 | 1.056
100 | 120 | 1.084
125 | 112 | 1.118
150 | 105 | 1.150

Seems pretty linear. About 3.5% earlier KOs per 10% rage. Guessing it starts from 35% and just doesn't scale up enough with these testing conditions until 38%.


Launch speed is like 0.64 what KB is on 3DS

Wii U calculates the numbers differently and I don't think it does so in as nice a manner.


EDIT: what aero said

I just finished testing, kills at 137% and when M2 is at 37% Cloud starts to die before then.
About to test with and 's uthrow

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, I got 1.15 when I tested using the calculator. But I guess that means launch distance is calculated differently?

Many people have probably noticed before that launch distance isn't scaling at the same rate as knockback. It's always been like this (assuming an engine somewhat modeled to real-world physics) but in Smash4 it feels particularly apparent with back throw's near the ledge where if you take two of them in a row sometimes, the first won't kill and you recover far before the blast zone whilst the second one clearly launches you with no chance.

The physics engine was likely patched up to be more "realistic" between games (or melee-ish?).
@Locuan can probably give a bit of a physics lecture here.

 

[LancerStaff]

but moooooooooooooooooooooooom

ok fine, I was going to work on something else but I don't even remember what so I'll kill some time on this tonight.

I got a bunch of Electroshock numbers with rage and different positions if you guys want 'em.

Didn't mean to reply to that but whatever...

 

[Dagon97]

What is the formula for move staling and fresh move?

 

[Yikarur]

I've always used Guest Mii's as a baseline because of their 100 Weight

 

[Vipermoon]

I've always used Guest Mii's as a baseline because of their 100 Weight

That's right. They do have a 100 weight. Also how do we know Cloud has a 100 weight?

 

[Dagon97]

That's right. They do have a 100 weight. Also how do we know Cloud has a 100 weight?

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

 

[Vipermoon]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

Well duh. You know what I mean. How do we know the weight of DLC characters if we don't have the other things like their mobility? I'm honestly just curious.

KuroganeHammer

 

[Pikabunz]

This is news to me. The only discovery I've heard is that more damage reduces the number of I-frames when grabbing the ledge. And I can certainly confirm that from what little I've tested, just not with precise numbers. It seems that whatever you get at 0% is about double what you get at 100%, and it's possibly reduced very little beyond 100% damage. But if air time is indeed a factor, then I'm unsure how to proceed. With the many different ways and distances you can get launched offstage, different air speeds and falling speeds of all the characters, recovery moves, any numbers I do get would be effectively useless data. Even the I-frames granted by an instant ledge trump would have a big asterisk, because the amount of frames it takes to fall and grab the ledge is different too among the cast.

Blast it, I'll just do ledge options. Those are consistent, and people are actually asking for this information.

I just found that this site has formulas for lots of things including ledge invincibility. Nothing on rage mechanics though.
http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/memo.htm

 

[Meshima]

What is the formula for move staling and fresh move?

stale multiplier = 1-Σ(sn/100)
s1=8.000, s2=7.605, s3=6.776, s4=6.033, s5=5.271, s6=4.437, s7=3.788, s8=2.943, s9=2.208
n is the position in the queue occupied by the move being used.
If you haven't any decay, stale multiplier is 1.05 instead of 1.

example:
If the move being used occupies the 3, 5, 6 and 8 positions in the queue, then stale multiplier is 1-(6.776+5.271+4.437+2.943)/100=0.8057

 

[Vipermoon]

With fresh moves, about what percent more knockback will be dealt compared to training mode?

 

[Darklink401]

For tether grabs (except Lucas)

I found a thing (technically someone else in the samus chat stumbled upon it, and I labbed to see how it worked, and got it down)

from the description I posted in the video

"How to perform: Grapple to the ledge of Dreamland at a certain distance so when you fall you're pretty much touching the bottom part of the wall. Then, at the correct time (as close to the wall as possible) press down. If done correctly, your character won't fastfall, but will instead go forward after letting go of the grapple, and for some reason in Dreamland that makes most tethers fly up like a rocket.
Tiers in terms of distances I was able to get:
S - Samus
A - Link
B - Toon Link, ZSS
Lucas cannot, to my knowledge, do this. I just recently discovered it, and the timing seems somewhat different depending on the character, so feel free to experiment."

 

[Sonicninja115]

For tether grabs (except Lucas)

I found a thing (technically someone else in the samus chat stumbled upon it, and I labbed to see how it worked, and got it down)

from the description I posted in the video

"How to perform: Grapple to the ledge of Dreamland at a certain distance so when you fall you're pretty much touching the bottom part of the wall. Then, at the correct time (as close to the wall as possible) press down. If done correctly, your character won't fastfall, but will instead go forward after letting go of the grapple, and for some reason in Dreamland that makes most tethers fly up like a rocket.
Tiers in terms of distances I was able to get:
S - Samus
A - Link
B - Toon Link, ZSS
Lucas cannot, to my knowledge, do this. I just recently discovered it, and the timing seems somewhat different depending on the character, so feel free to experiment."

That was... high...

I wonder what practical applications can come from this.

 

[Darklink401]

That was... high...

I wonder what practical applications can come from this.

That's not even the full height. You can get up to the top bubble, lol.

I guess it's good for edgeguarding high, as well as recovering back onstage?

I guess it can kill some time, if you do that superjump to the top blastzone, then keep down Bing

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's not even the full height. You can get up to the top bubble, lol.

I guess it's good for edgeguarding high, as well as recovering back onstage?

I guess it can kill some time, if you do that superjump to the top blastzone, then keep down Bing

It is probably really useful for ZSS. I guess it depends on what situation she wants to be in, ledge trap or juggle.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well duh. You know what I mean. How do we know the weight of DLC characters if we don't have the other things like their mobility? I'm honestly just curious.

KuroganeHammer

The scales on the Pikmin stage I presume.