Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Ffamran]

Huh, doesn't Bouncing Fish activate on contact after its startup, though? Or do moves like Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Monkey Flip have a slight delay to their hitbox?

 

[Illuminose]

Huh, doesn't Bouncing Fish activate on contact after its startup, though? Or do moves like Bouncing Fish, Flip Jump, and Monkey Flip have a slight delay to their hitbox?

Nope, there's a hitbox on frames 17-24 if you activate it as early as possible (double tap B) or 26-33 if you just press it once. 2 frames of invincibility on start-up (frames 2-3). It's not on contact, it's just there.

edit: riiiight it's 3-4 I always mix that up

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

^ Is correct for Bouncing Fish it's a manual activation only. Monkey Flip and Flip Jump have automatic and manual activation.

 

[Illuminose]

^ Is correct for Bouncing Fish it's a manual activation only. Monkey Flip and Flip Jump have automatic and manual activation.

No no not quite, I was saying that you get a hitbox on frames 26-33 whether you like it or not but you can activate the second kick as early as 17-24. There's automatic activation and manual (manual is better though).

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

No no not quite, I was saying that you get a hitbox on frames 26-33 whether you like it or not but you can activate the second kick as early as 17-24. There's automatic activation and manual (manual is better though).

I used bad wording. That's what I thought you meant. :x

edit: meant that the hitbox isn't automatically out.

 

[Luigi player]

Nope, there's a hitbox on frames 17-24 if you activate it as early as possible (double tap B) or 26-33 if you just press it once. 2 frames of invincibility on start-up (frames 2-3). It's not on contact, it's just there.

Invincibility is frame 3-4.

Interesting that bouncing fish is so "slow". But it sometimes seems too fast to react to. I guess you really have to watch for any change in animation for that to be fast enough, or maybe you can try to react to the sound...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This may be pretty obvious to some of you, but I'm just now learning this:

Moves with fixed knockback have their knockback/hitstun increased by Rage, which gives them better frame advantage.

People dragging opponents down with autolink hitboxes and stuff allow you to do a little more if you're at high percents. Neat.

 

[Masonomace]

I humbly apologize if this question has already been asked in the previous 34 pages, but what are all of the instances that Traction / Friction would be noticeable or when it occurs?

I know of some examples like when the character mashes out from a grab getting the ground release animation & when an opponent shields an oncoming attack

 

[Pazx]

I humbly apologize if this question has already been asked in the previous 34 pages, but what are all of the instances that Traction / Friction would be noticeable or when it occurs?

I know of some examples like when the character mashes out from a grab getting the ground release animation & when an opponent shields an oncoming attack

Running upsmashes, skidding in general, stopping moving in general, perfect pivoting. Possibly also Jump Cancel Item Tossing and... basically everything that involves moving along the ground.

 

[Masonomace]

Running upsmashes, skidding in general, stopping moving in general, perfect pivoting. Possibly also Jump Cancel Item Tossing and... basically everything that involves moving along the ground.

H'oh boy. . .tyvm for the reply. Frankly though, I'm even more confused about Shulk's Speed arts now because his skidding is extremely huge yet his running up smash does come to a halt quicker. It's just that his running speed applies to the distance of the up smash. But again ty to the max

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm wondering... How exactly does charging smashes work? Like, if I wanted to do a smash as fast as possible I would try not to charge it. But that's basically impossible without buffering, right? Or is there a buffer of sorts where charging won't delay the rest of the attack? Grabbing apparently works for dsmashes, but not the other two. Wait, durr, grab lets you frame perfect dsmash without extra inputs, and also works for usmash with a jump cancel. Now I just need a way to frame perfect fsmash.

And that A+B smash thing... What can you do with it? Pivot smashes are easier, (unless I'm placebo'd again) but what else can you do? Last I heard it canceled the first frame of a jab or tilt into a smash, and you'd think that'd lead into something.

 

[Pikabunz]

If you don't want to charge, you just have to release the buttons quickly. Different smashes start charging at different frames, so it's easier to not charge for some moves than others.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think the fastest charge window is the minimum of Frame 2 for Diddy Kong U-Smash (which is active on Frame 5 uncharged, iirc).

 

[A_Kae]

I think the fastest charge window is the minimum of Frame 2 for Diddy Kong U-Smash (which is active on Frame 5 uncharged, iirc).

Meta Knight's d-smash has the fastest charge frame on F1. Hits on F4.

There's also a total of 18 smashes with a charge frame of 2.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was a fool. Good correction.

Also:

This may be pretty obvious to some of you, but I'm just now learning this:

Moves with fixed knockback have their knockback/hitstun increased by Rage, which gives them better frame advantage.

People dragging opponents down with autolink hitboxes and stuff allow you to do a little more if you're at high percents. Neat.

 

[Ulevo]

I was a fool. Good correction.

Also:

Is there an approximate value to which the hit stun is increased by?

 

[A_Kae]

Is there an approximate value to which the hit stun is increased by?

Hitstun is directly proportional to knockback, so however much rage increases the knockback by is how much the hitstun is increased. Hitstun is knockback *0.4.

Example for clarity: In the case of the first hits of Falco's fair vs ganondorf, 51.215 knockback and 20 frames of hitstun is done when falco is at 0%. When falco is 150% (assuming that rage is 15% increase at that point), the knockback done is 58.897, with 23 frames of hitstun.

Edit: And because I might as well, here are the formulas:

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Weight Based Knockback = ((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Hitstun Frames = Knockback * 0.4

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
g = Knockback Growth
s = Weight Based Knockback
b = Base Knockback

 

[⑨ball]

I've known about feet not having hurttboxes for a while now, but has this always been the case with hands?

edit: Seems to be the case for the top of heads too, but I can understand that one with the difficulty of accurately sizing hurtbubbles or boxes to models.

 

[Forsage]

Hello everyone, I haven't seen many players using an instant drop-down after using an aerial on a platform, so I figured I'd make a post to see why people think it's a bad option or just inform them that this technique exists.

When one is above a platform, you can just hold down to drop right through. If you use an aerial however, you are forced to land on top of the platform. After this landing, it would be nice if you could drop straight through the platform and use an up-air to keep up your aggression while staying safe. If you try this however, you end up crouching instead, as it seems there is a window where you can't just drop down.

It turns out though that if you perform any action at all, you will be able to drop down again. Because of that, just turning your character around makes for a fast and easy way to let yourself drop down through the platform immediately. Walking forwards will also allow you to drop down, but I find it harder to perform consistently without dashing.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. https://gfycat.com/MiserableImpureIberianbarbel

Sorry if this has already been brought up, I'm just looking for some discussion around this mechanic.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Hello everyone, I haven't seen many players using an instant drop-down after using an aerial on a platform, so I figured I'd make a post to see why people think it's a bad option or just inform them that this technique exists.

When one is above a platform, you can just hold down to drop right through. If you use an aerial however, you are forced to land on top of the platform. After this landing, it would be nice if you could drop straight through the platform and use an up-air to keep up your aggression while staying safe. If you try this however, you end up crouching instead, as it seems there is a window where you can't just drop down.

It turns out though that if you perform any action at all, you will be able to drop down again. Because of that, just turning your character around makes for a fast and easy way to let yourself drop down through the platform immediately. Walking forwards will also allow you to drop down, but I find it harder to perform consistently without dashing.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. https://gfycat.com/MiserableImpureIberianbarbel

Sorry if this has already been brought up, I'm just looking for some discussion around this mechanic.

Thank you so much for this. You have no idea...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, to my understanding, that's more of a failsafe than a technique. By doing that you're always guaranteeing that you're doing it more slowly than timing it perfectly. Instead of dropping down on the first possible frame, you're choosing to react to when you turn around instead, which may take multiple frames depending on your reactions.

 

[busken]

You can cancel you initial dash animation with with forward smash. This is helpful as you don't have to go through skid frames which would happen while running.
While foxtrotting you can perfect pivot into any tilt. The video displays fox trot into perfect pivot d-tilt and f-tilt. This is good for spacing/pressure.

This can prove to be useful for characters that have tilts that are very useful in their gameplay such as Little Mac, Ryu, Marth, DK, etc.

While dashing if you tilt the analog in a diagonal cardinal direction your run will be slower. This allows you to slow do the amount of frames you have while skidding, as well as preventing you to run off platforms and stages. Since the game registers that you are still in a dashing animation you could do anything you could normally do while dashing.

This can prove to be useful at the ledge for certain characters that have standing grabs slower then their dash grabs such as Greninja, Yoshi, and Zelda. It can also be useful for characters that have fast, multi-hitbox dash attacks, such as Luigi, Diddy Kong, Kirby, etc. It also maintains your momentum as you run proving to be useful to edge guard.

I realize that some of these techniques have already been discovered and shared. I'm just doing this for those who don't know and how they can apply this to their character.
EDIT: These are none of my videos.

 

[Forsage]

Well, to my understanding, that's more of a failsafe than a technique. By doing that you're always guaranteeing that you're doing it more slowly than timing it perfectly. Instead of dropping down on the first possible frame, you're choosing to react to when you turn around instead, which may take multiple frames depending on your reactions.

I'm fairly certain that it does save frames. My evidence for this is based on the fact that if I successfully perform the turnaround drop after a move (using Zelda's Up-Air right now), it works fine, but if I miss the buffered turnaround I only end up crouching despite using the same timing. That means it has to be slower, right?

That said, the time save is definitely more noticeable when you autocancel a move, so in some cases it might not be necessary. Samus' up-air doesn't seem to have to wait long before dropping, so it might not be as useful there. It's worth looking into what moves the technique saves the most frames on, and if there are any where it actually wastes frames. I only play ROB though, and he autocancels basically everything, so I won't be able to help much with this.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I'm fairly certain that it does save frames. My evidence for this is based on the fact that if I successfully perform the turnaround drop after a move (using Zelda's Up-Air right now), it works fine, but if I miss the buffered turnaround I only end up crouching despite using the same timing. That means it has to be slower, right?

That said, the time save is definitely more noticeable when you autocancel a move, so in some cases it might not be necessary. Samus' up-air doesn't seem to have to wait long before dropping, so it might not be as useful there. It's worth looking into what moves the technique saves the most frames on, and if there are any where it actually wastes frames. I only play ROB though, and he autocancels basically everything, so I won't be able to help much with this.

For me this definitely saves frames! I was so tired of landing on a platform then trying to go down only to get crouch animations and then most likely take an attack in the face. All I had to do was turn around first...

 

[Yikarur]

You don't even have to turnarround, you can just put the stick in any direction for a frame. It's so old, everyone does that by intention.

 

[PinkPillow]

Hi guys, I was in training mode with Falcon, and I noticed that I sometimes do perfect pivots that seem a lot shorter and do not produce the usual smoke that you see at the beginning of a dash, and I believe perfect pivots are supposed to make that smoke appear right ?
Anyway, I was wondering if the two perfect pivots were different or if it was a Falcon only thing, or they're just the same, so please let me know.
Also, do perfect pivots sometimes turn you the opposite way ?

 

[cot(θ)]

The window for executing a perfect pivot is a few frames long. The length of the perfect pivot depends on when you execute it, which means there is a range of possible PP lengths for each character. The shortest possible perfect pivot will not produce smoke.

 

[Guillaume1987]

The perfect pivot without smoke is called a zaw dance. Named after the infamous Izaw's perfect pivot guide.

 

[Dsull]

Ive literally never been able to pull off a perfect pivot. If im somehow not flicking the stick fast enough then i have a limitation of my left thumb, which is entirely possible since my left hand has terrible dexterity lol. Im not even waiting for the roll to begin im immediately flicking the other direction and i just roll normally.

 

[kenniky]

Ive literally never been able to pull off a perfect pivot. If im somehow not flicking the stick fast enough then i have a limitation of my left thumb, which is entirely possible since my left hand has terrible dexterity lol. Im not even waiting for the roll to begin im immediately flicking the other direction and i just roll normally.

You don't roll, you dash.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Has anyone already discovered how to connect two hits with a down smash?

 

[Dsull]

You don't roll, you dash.

That would explain it.

Wonder where i got the roll thing from...

 

[[Deuce]]

Its the same thing. The only difference is you don't get the lil smoke effect. No one coined a different term for an imperfect/short wavedash from holding the stick too diagonally as opposed to horizontally

 

[I speak Spanish too]

If no smoke appears it is frame perfect. If smoke appears it is not frame perfect but the same distance and FAF is the same.

 

[cot(θ)]

If no smoke appears it is frame perfect. If smoke appears it is not frame perfect but the same distance and FAF is the same.

The distance is not the same. This is easy to test as Little Mac, and probably Captain Falcon. Please don't spread misinformation.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

The distance is not the same. This is easy to test as Little Mac, and probably Captain Falcon. Please don't spread misinformation.

Ok sorry

 

[busken]

What are the inputs for turnaround d-tilt?

 

[Forsage]

What are the inputs for turnaround d-tilt?

You could probably do a rolling input from slightly left to slightly down so you don't accidentally dash or down-smash.
The best method is probably to set C-Stick to Attacks though so you can tilt easier. Then just buffer a turnaround and hit c-stick down.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Has anyone already discovered how to connect two hits with a down smash?

Anyone?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Anyone?

It's a very circumstantial combination of knockback distance and angle, if you hit with the inner part of the hitbox (closer to your own body) it will probably sent the opponent towards the other one.
Due to how much characters tend to push each other as an attempt not to overlap, you need to input it while the opponent was performing another action (likely, a defensive one like dodging). So, it's not a reliable tech.