Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Dr. Tuen]

I believe I did some form of a platform cancel. Or, at least, my understanding of the term "platform cancel" is that it's a technique used to stop momentum on a platform to facilitate faster transitions. Anyways, it's in the video below. I'm not sure if Sonic's spring had anything to do with it or not. ZSS still seems to incur the appropriate forward air landing lag though, so I'm not sure if that's platform canceling in its most traditional sense.

 

[Shaya]

I very frequently have occasions of timing an action in such a way while rising above a platform and immediately performing it "grounded". I play Zero Suit dittos a lot and it's notorious in getting in the way of up air chains off the top on Lylat Cruise.

 

[Azazel]

I believe I did some form of a platform cancel. Or, at least, my understanding of the term "platform cancel" is that it's a technique used to stop momentum on a platform to facilitate faster transitions. Anyways, it's in the video below. I'm not sure if Sonic's spring had anything to do with it or not. ZSS still seems to incur the appropriate forward air landing lag though, so I'm not sure if that's platform canceling in its most traditional sense.

I think aerial interrupt is more accurate than platform canceling.
to land on a platform your characters ECB must "fall" onto it.
You are using the downward extension of ZSS's F-air's ECB to "descend" onto a platform, making it possible to land whilst rising
that's may be what is happening

 

[Ulevo]

Something I would like to know if anyone has an answer, how many frames does it take for your character to turn around until their next actionable frame occurs? For example, Meta Knight has a frame 3 down tilt. If I want to turn around and down tilt, how many frames would that take extra? Also, forward tilt is frame 6. Would it take longer to forward tilt in the opposite direction, or is it still frame 6 because of the automatic turnaround mechanic the tilt has?

 

[Shaya]

More researched answer below~

 

[busken]

A normal turnaround is 11 frames, but can be acted out of on frame 6. If you perform a grab, shield, or jump it will cancel the turn and be performed immediately. For MK, if you buffer the d-tilt after turnaround, and since it takes 3 frames for MK's d-tilt active hitbox to initiate it would take 9 frames to hit the opponent. If I recall correctly while running the same concept applies, except f-tilt can be performed immediately as well. The only variable is how long your character's skid frames are, which in turn would decide how fast you can act out of them. I know Luigi's skid stop is 34 frames. On a sidenote, you can slow run out a run http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Ledge_Running_Glitch which will reduce skid stop by 60%.

 

[DrLobster]

With the removal of tripping, dash-dancing has the potential to become a legitimate competitive option. I previously mained Diddy Kong, and I would implement dash-dancing into my playstyle with relative success. However, I'm looking into switching mains now, and I'm going to heavily consider the ability to dash-dance when I'm choosing.

So far, through just playing around with characters, it seems like ZSS has the best dash-dance. However, I'm not entirely sure. Is there any definitive, empirically-backed answer to who has the best dash?

 

[moofpi]

Falcon, Little Mac, Marthcina.
https://youtu.be/LISSQnPoio0

 

[Xermo]

With the removal of tripping, dash-dancing has the potential to become a legitimate competitive option

Even with tripping, DD'ing in brawl was still a legit option. It's not like you tripped on every dash input.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I love Marth and Falcon's they are really fast!

 

[Pazx]

Falcon can make the most of combining dash dancing and fox trotting thanks to his dash speed and his dash grab. He's one of the only characters who really stands out as being able to dash dance/trot to bait opponents and then dash in for a punish.

This isn't quite what you asked but ZSS has a really short skid animation so she can trot back and forth without having to dash dance (to turn) which is useful in it's own right.

 

[DrLobster]

Even with tripping, DD'ing in brawl was still a legit option. It's not like you tripped on every dash input.

True, but the threat of tripping definitely deterred dash-dancing. Plus, dash-dancing didn't really have a place in the Brawl meta, from what I've seen of it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

True, but the threat of tripping definitely deterred dash-dancing. Plus, dash-dancing didn't really have a place in the Brawl meta, from what I've seen of it.

DD in Smash 4 isn't very Meta-shaping either. It's just a cool-looking mixup

 

[DrLobster]

DD in Smash 4 isn't very Meta-shaping either. It's just a cool-looking mixup

While it's definitely not gonna redefine the meta anytime soon, there a select few characters where you can base your playstyle around a heavy dash-dance game. Falcon and ZSS are probably the most notable (not in the sense that a lot of people do it, but in the sense that they have a really solid feel to their dash-dances).

 

[moofpi]

While it's definitely not gonna redefine the meta anytime soon, there a select few characters where you can base your playstyle around a heavy dash-dance game. Falcon and ZSS are probably the most notable (not in the sense that a lot of people do it, but in the sense that they have a really solid feel to their dash-dances).

False's Falcon utilizes it very effectively and stylishly as does Sol's Little Mac. Very crisp movement. I think to really play those characters optimally you need to get that movement down.

 

[busken]

How would you buffer a FH aerial?

 

[A_Kae]

How would you buffer a FH aerial?

Same way you would buffer a SH one. Input the attack during the jumpsquat.


I have a question about shieldstun. Sixriver has a formula for it here: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Guard_Hitstop.htm

But I've noticed conflicts with that formula and this doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vw-lQktgLoE6tspDhOwju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk

Marth's jab does 1 frame of shieldstun tipped and untipped by sixriver's formula, but 2 and 2 with the google doc.

So, what's the actual way shieldstun is calculated?

 

[busken]

If you input an attack during jumpsquat you'll get a SH aerial.

 

[A_Kae]

If you input an attack during jumpsquat you'll get a SH aerial.

I'm testing this, and I'm not seeing that to be the case.

 

[busken]

Testing what? If you buffer a directional attack input during jumpsquat the first frame the jumpsqaut ends the attack animation will start.

 

[A_Kae]

Testing what? If you buffer a directional attack input during jumpsquat the first frame the jumpsqaut ends the attack animation will start.

Testing what you said. That buffering aerials results in a short hop. Which I'm not seeing to be the case.

I'm getting full hopped buffered aerials if I hold the jump button and input the attack during jumpsquat.

 

[busken]

That's impossible. Any attack during jump squat animation can't be full hopped buffered because the attack would come out when jumpsquat ends.

 

[A_Kae]

That's impossible. Any attack during jump squat animation can't be full hopped buffered because the attack would come out when jumpsquat ends.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here. Why would that mean that FH buffered aerials are impossible?

A FH buffered aerial (or a SH) is inputting the aerial during the jumpsquat so that it comes out as soon as the jumpsquat ends.

Are we talking about different things here? Because that's what it seems like.

 

[busken]

That's why I asked intially because I don't know how to buffer a FH aerial. I do know however that attacking when the jumpsquat is over would mean a buffered aerial. So does holding or tapping effect the jump height even if buffered the aerial out of the jumpsquat?

 

[A_Kae]

That's why I asked intially because I don't know how to buffer a FH aerial. I do know however that attacking when the jumpsquat is over would mean a buffered aerial. So does holding or tapping effect the jump height even if buffered the aerial out of the jumpsquat?

Yes. Holding vs tapping is the only factor in whether it's a full hop or a short hop. Buffering an aerial doesn't matter.

Edit: To buffer an aerial, you need to input the aerial before the jumpsquat ends. Attacking after isn't buffered.

 

[busken]

Thanks for the replies dude! Definitely going to look into this more. As for your question on shieldstun the calculator has been confirmed to be the most accurate. Also, is reverse boost grabbing still possible?

 

[A_Kae]

Thanks for the replies dude! Definitely going to look into this more. As for your question on shieldstun the calculator has been confirmed to be the most accurate. Also, is reverse boost grabbing still possible?

As best I can tell, the actual mechanics of reverse boost grabs is still a thing. You can cancel a dash attack in to a dash grab or pivot grab. I'm not sure how useful it is, I only tested with Marth and it doesn't seem to be of much use. Different characters will give different results, probably. But it is still possible to do, at least.

 

[Luigi player]

A normal turnaround is 11 frames, but can be acted out of on frame 6. If you perform a grab, shield, or jump it will cancel the turn and be performed immediately. For MK, if you buffer the d-tilt after turnaround, and since it takes 3 frames for MK's d-tilt active hitbox to initiate it would take 9 frames to hit the opponent.

Apparantly this is wrong. If it would really take 6 frames that would be really noticable. @ Yikarur claimed it to be false and I'm also noticing no lag. The only time when you really have that much turnaround-lag is when you just walk / dash in the other direction or do nothing (though for a dash you can just dash into the other direction without the turnaroundstuff anyway). All attacks or other actions should come out sooner. It's probably still just 1 frame like always.

In case of dtilts: it doesn't seem like you can cancel dtilts stopping (IASA?) frames into a turnaround like you can into other moves. Which makes it so that MK will stop the dtilt, stand up again, and then you can buffer the turnaround and then dtilt again, which takes a really long time, lol. Though just trying to ftilt (or fsmash) into the other direction should come out in normal speed or +1 for the turnaround (not sure if one turnaroundframe will be used if you buffer such an action).

I wonder why they crippled the buffersystem like that. I wish I wouldn't SD 100000 times while trying to do a doublejump + aerial out of an action and be able to usmash / upB oos consistently even with my shieldhitlag and be able to do turnaround moves and not always grab into the same direction while my opponent is behind me...

 

[busken]

Apparantly this is wrong. If it would really take 6 frames that would be really noticable. @ Yikarur claimed it to be false and I'm also noticing no lag. The only time when you really have that much turnaround-lag is when you just walk / dash in the other direction or do nothing. All attacks or other actions should come out sooner. It's probably still just 1 frame like always.

In case of dtilts: it doesn't seem like you can cancel dtilts stopping (IASA?) frames into a turnaround like you can into other moves. Which makes it so that MK will stop the dtilt, stand up again, and then you can buffer the turnaround and then dtilt again, which takes a really long time, lol.

I wonder why they crippled the buffersystem like that. I wish I wouldn't SD 100000 times while trying to do a doublejump + aerial out of an action and be able to usmash oos consistently even with my shieldhitlag and be able to do turnaround moves and not always grabbing into the same direction while my opponent is behind me...

Sorry for the wrong information. I just though turnaround animations were global in every smash game.

 

[Yikarur]

In case of dtilts: it doesn't seem like you can cancel dtilts stopping (IASA?) frames into a turnaround like you can into other moves. Which makes it so that MK will stop the dtilt, stand up again, and then you can buffer the turnaround and then dtilt again, which takes a really long time, lol. Though just trying to ftilt (or fsmash) into the other direction should come out in normal speed or +1 for the turnaround (not sure if one turnaroundframe will be used if you buffer such an action).

you can dash out of dtilts but not walk. That's because you're crouching by using dtilts by default. You cannot walk out of that because you have to wait for our character to get up. You can bypass that doing actions (like dash, jab etc.) during the IASA frames.
In Smash 4 you can buffer turnarround dashes by inputting dash in the other direction. (even out of dtilt) and hold the stick until the buffer window is over.
If you release the stick before the buffer windows is over, you'll just to a turnarround, because the first frame of a turnarround dash is just the turnarround.
This way you can buffer a turnarround out of dtilt.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What's FAF if you shield 9% dmg move?
Can you buffer a special move off the ledge?
Can you buffer a special move via SH or FH?
What's the easiest way to powershield attacks?
If you roll cancel grab while an active item is on the floor(gyro, banana peel) will the roll allow you to avoid the item on the ground?

 

[A_Kae]

What's FAF if you shield 9% dmg move?
Can you buffer a special move off the ledge?
Can you buffer a special move via SH or FH?
What's the easiest way to powershield attacks?
If you roll cancel grab while an active item is on the floor(gyro, banana peel) will the roll allow you to avoid the item on the ground?

1) What do you mean by this?
2) You can buffer specials the same way as other attacks
3) See 2
4) There's no easy way. It's all timing. You have to press shield within 4 frames of the attack.
5) Probably not. You cancel the roll too early for the invincibility to matter.

 

[Luigi player]

you can dash out of dtilts but not walk. That's because you're crouching by using dtilts by default. You cannot walk out of that because you have to wait for our character to get up. You can bypass that doing actions (like dash, jab etc.) during the IASA frames.
In Smash 4 you can buffer turnarround dashes by inputting dash in the other direction. (even out of dtilt) and hold the stick until the buffer window is over.
If you release the stick before the buffer windows is over, you'll just to a turnarround, because the first frame of a turnarround dash is just the turnarround.
This way you can buffer a turnarround out of dtilt.

Ah, amazing! So it can work.
Btw, you can walk out of dtilts during the IASA in the direction you're facing, just not in the other direction.

 

[-RedX-]

You can probably walk in the opposite direction you're facing during the IASA frame if do something like buffer turnaround then tilt the stick in that direction to start a walk. You would have to flick the control stick once for turnaround, return stick to neutral so you don't run, then walk but this isn't exactly buffering the walk. Heh.

 

[busken]

Why is that whenever I do a PP d-tilt I can't slide forward into the tilt. It always turns me around and slides.

 

[Ffamran]

Specials clank differently, right? Or do they follow the same rules of priority where if they're used on the ground, they can clank, but in the air, they don't like Luigi's Cyclone? Someone linked this in the Falco boards and it kind of doesn't make sense to me... well, some of it does and some of it doesn't.

I know Falco's Fair can out-hit Diddy's Monkey Flip. It was a while ago, but that Diddy only kept the grab hitbox out, so yeah, aerial vs. grab hitbox. Bouncing Fish isn't entirely invincible and even though aerial vs. aerial is different, a 12% Bouncing Fish shouldn't be out-hit by a 1% Fair, the first hit of Falco's Fair is just 1%. It looks like they're hitting each other, so Sheik and Falco should be trading with Falco getting the worse trade, but somehow, Fair's eating through it. Then again, I don't see a lot of people challenging Bouncing Fish since Sheik players setup Bouncing Fish rather than throwing it out randomly.

Fair is disjointed, but not that disjointed compared to its landing hitbox and nothing I know of says its partial invincible which if his beak was, that might explain it, but you can hit Falco anywhere during Fair except for this which I don't get. The fact you can use Fair to trade for a semi-spike is already proof you can hit Falco, but also another thing about his Fair being so weird. As far as I know, you can't semi-spike with Fox by trading with another hit.

 

[A_Kae]

Specials as far as I know clank on the ground, but not in the air. Assuming they aren't transcendent, of course.

Priority isn't a factor at all in air combat. If a move does 1%, it can still hit a 12% hitbox and continue.

In this case, it looks more like Falco is just avoiding the hitbox of bouncing fish and hitting with fair. Not sure if it's a positional thing or if the hitbox just isn't out yet.

Maybe I'm wrong, though. I don't know for sure when in the animation bouncing fish actually hits, or where the hitbox is.

 

[Ffamran]

I know priority isn't a factor for aerials, but it's just weird how a 12% hitbox out-hits a 1% looping hitbox with a finisher. According to Aero's frame data dump, Bouncing Fish is active from frames 17-24 or 26-33 which is 7 active frames both for a total of 14. I don't know about the "second" hit, though. As for where the hitbox is, I'm going to assume it's her legs, so waist down, but it might be her entire body, I don't really know. The video linked had the first example with Falco clipping her head which hey, if the hitbox is just on her legs, then he's clipping a hurtbox. The second example, however, has him clipping her legs which if that's the hitbox, then they should be trading and not Falco overriding Bouncing Fish with Sheik flipping back to "standing".

Then again, Sheik's F-throw to Bouncing Fish has people in their knockback animation which is almost parallel to the ground for most characters. Falco's parallel to the ground with a hitbox out, so that's probably not something different if Sheik can still hit people with "skewed" hurtboxes.

 

[busken]

Can you act faster if you shield or if you spot dodge?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

@ Ffamran the Bouncing Fish hitbox wasn't out yet. Also from what I can tell that frame data is just the earliest possible frame and the latest, not the followup kick.

Priority for special moves are a case by case basis afaik.