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Midwest [May 2, 2015] Sponsored by Buffalo Wild Wings and KTAR SPAU 4 Project:M and Smash4 (Livonia, MI)

Rabbi Nevins

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
Location
East Lansing, MI
Ive never thought of it that way KB but that makes complete sense. Im a mk main and instead of reading about stages and counterpicks i dont really need to worry about that so i focus on practicing my tech stuff in training mode. But i think having that control and mastery over my character is what really helps me to improve. mk does take a lot of tech skill, gio and I are always discussing what to practice in training mode and new manuevers ^_^

if you main mk and dont practice having perfect control youre doing it terribly wrong.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
505
Location
Plover, WI
Ive never thought of it that way KB but that makes complete sense. Im a mk main and instead of reading about stages and counterpicks i dont really need to worry about that so i focus on practicing my tech stuff in training mode. But i think having that control and mastery over my character is what really helps me to improve. mk does take a lot of tech skill, gio and I are always discussing what to practice in training mode and new manuevers ^_^

if you main mk and dont practice having perfect control youre doing it terribly wrong.
I think this goes for any character

:phone:
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
@Roller your post doesn't actually address any of the points I was talking about so there's no need to respond to you on my part. Funnily enough, I happen to agree with you. Except that people should stop being scared of learning characters for counterpicks and start doing it to maximize their chances of winning. No matter what ruleset we have, your/KB's mentality of learning the best character(s) to win is the mindset of a champion.



And to those who might say: "Oh but they have constant interaction with one another in such a small country, so that's why they can practice so much!", I say "so what?". Look at Salem...wifi monster, had little to no interaction with any players in person for who knows how long. Got to where he is strictly off of wifi and perhaps practice sessions alone. It can be done. However, the independent variable in this being that his character isn't complete ****ing sewer waste.
Eddie, you're the homie, but Salem is an outlier. He is a fantastic example, but also an outlier. Also notice how more population dense regions have a higher concentration of Wi-Fi bred talent.

Look, all I'm imploring "conservative stage list" people to consider is that no one is disagreeing that the "bad" characters you speak of are only good on those stages. What I'm looking for is a logical basis for removing those skills from the game. Why should it be that picking....say, DDD on Delfino should be a skill that we remove? Because it's "gimmicky"? Because winning on DDD with Delfino requires a different set of skills than the skills tested on other stages? Does DDD on Delfino prevent the better player from winning the set? If "playing to win" is the condition, and DDD is beatable on Delfino, and he is not overcentralizing on Delfino, then what's the problem with picking D3 on that stage? If the worse player loses the set anyways, then what's the problem with "wasting a game"?
 

LOE1

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
1,692
i just burnt my eyes out reading all this text

all ive heard is :wario: and campy and frigate

sounds like my language :denzel:
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
Well I just saw this ****storm in this thread.....lol.

I'm not gonna rebuttal or anything. Everything was already said.

My attendance is iffy. I really dislike the ruleset and it has nothing to do with my playstyle. I can run on every stage lmao. Maybe a good partner for doubles will influence my decision. We'll see.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
*reads people's basis on why we should use the Japanese ruleset and implications of how stages affect certain matchups

*shakes head in dismay and confusion
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Avoid October 6th please, Kyle, that's Big House 2 weekend and I already have Roller, Zinoto, and ThuGz on board as staff members!
 

JTsm

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
3,230
I'm trying aim towards Nov 2 weeks past Youmacon just so everyone can take a break. If I can't get anything like that, then I probably won't host this Fall. There's just so much going on this season.
 

zyth

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
1,474
Location
Southfield, MI
you know after reading all the posts, there was one thing i kept seeing that a couple ppl said that doesnt fit with what they are trying to say. they said that some CP stages only add a little bit of a bonus to playing a bad character and that good characters get bonuses on starter stages regardless. if you think about it then if the "bad" characters are only getting a small bonus on a CP then why cant we keep the CP in? it doesnt drasticaly change the flow of a match, but it makes a low tier character more viable but still within the bounds of reason.

Its nothing like the old days when every other oli main would try to CP norfair and ever have to worry about getting edge guarded. thats like a 50% chane of winning increase for him. the CPs that are used now just make it so that there is a small chance increase of winning for a person that knows the stage better.

Also if you think hard about it, you cant try and put Smash Bros in a discussion about having static stages. the game wasnt made to be played that way. if it was meant to have no stage discussions like other fighters then the only stage would be FD with skin variations. Smash Bros notoriety comes from having a lot of variable stages unlike other traditional fighting games, but still have the depth of those fighting games with character differences + stage differences.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that stages that make a fight ebb slightly in a less skilled players flow shouldnt be taken out just because ppl say they should get more skilled on 95-100% static stages. if that were the case brawl would have only had static stages with 4 different types of MK characters to play.
 

Eddie G

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
9,123
Location
Cleveland, OH
NNID
neohmarth216
Let's be honest here - the majority of you don't even know how to counterpick effectively. I'm not even all that bright at it either, so I just keep it to simply outplaying my opponent since that is usually the difference maker (that matters) anyway.

:phone:
 

Damittom

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
950
Location
Muskegon, MI
3DS FC
4742-5811-9326
@ Zyth brawl wasn't made to be played competitivly either. So most stages and characters weren't made with competition in mind

:phone:
 
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
3,114
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Somewhere in clowsui's post he asked why we should remove the skill of fighting on delfino.

My answer is to cultivate the skill of playing against the player rather than the stage.

But its w/e as the metagame goes on, we'll start adopting a more conservative stagelist. It happened in melee, it's what Japan already does, and it's what people scared because they know they can't beat anyone without stage advantage don't do. Feel free to stay bad tho, makes it easier for me to stay PR'd without putting practice into the game.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Somewhere in clowsui's post he asked why we should remove the skill of fighting on delfino.

My answer is to cultivate the skill of playing against the player rather than the stage.

But its w/e as the metagame goes on, we'll start adopting a more conservative stagelist. It happened in melee, it's what Japan already does, and it's what people scared because they know they can't beat anyone without stage advantage don't do. Feel free to stay bad tho, makes it easier for me to stay PR'd without putting practice into the game.
Why is depth defined solely in "player vs player" terms? If stages also have elements that can be utilized directly by the player, why do we choose to remove this particular depth from the game? If you're going to use the items example, YES we arbitrarily chose to remove the depth of items, but that represents the subjective "limit". Unless you would like to equate utilizing stage elements to utilizing items?

Again note that I think it is perfectly acceptable to say that player vs player is an important aspect of the game but I think it is illogical to suggest that the depth of the game as a whole is somehow increased by removing stages. The depth of the game in PvP terms is increased (and only marginally, I'd argue), nothing else.

And while it's confusing to include this point here, logically speaking, PvP being the most important part of depth is just an opinion. I have yet to find demonstrable proof that PvP is the most important part of depth.

Also I don't really wanna talk about the Melee thing lol. Makes me upset that there are so many idiots in that community.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
If the stage doesn't quantifiably interact with the scoreboard outside of the context of player vs. player, by definition the use of stage to one's advantage has to exist solely within the context of PVP play. I'm a fan of a conservative stagelist by value criterion of player vs. player, but even I realize that if logically followed the Japanese ruleset and stagelist LIMITS player vs. player, not enhances it.

Aka, you can't gain an advantage from FD over your opponent if you don't know how to use it. You can't gain an advantage over Delfino if you don't know how to use it. You can't win on the most neutral of stages if you don't know how to use it. It's hypocritical for someone to claim "play me on 'neutrals', stop playing 'bad characters', and 'get better'" when in fact the increased depth by definition would require a larger and more versatile skill set (including adaptability god forbid) than simply playing on a single or limited stages.

TLDR: Play on whatever stages are competitively sound, stop playing characters that can only handle static stages thus making them "bad" or pick up another character that can fully maximize usage on a specific stage thus increasing your overall skill, and get better and stop blaming your shortcomings as a player with your inability to adapt and utilize tools on an appeal to player vs. player.


On the note of Melee, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that the ruleset of commons appealing over time to a smaller list is due to wanting increased player vs. player interaction. It's more likely the result of the "starter stages" being commonly universal throughout the country. Since specific counterpicks occurred as regional quirks, they were less likely to receive widespread use thus less likely to retain their common usage over time. The loss of depth isn't so much an appeal towards player vs. player as it is commentary towards the negatives of dividing stages in terms of starter/counterpick ideologically.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
If the stage doesn't quantifiably interact with the scoreboard outside of the context of player vs. player, by definition the use of stage to one's advantage has to exist solely within the context of PVP play

Aka, you can't gain an advantage from FD over your opponent if you don't know how to use it. You can't gain an advantage over Delfino if you don't know how to use it. You can't win on the most neutral of stages if you don't know how to use it.
This argument only increases the appeal of a more diverse stage list imo =)

On the note of Melee, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that the ruleset of commons appealing over time to a smaller list is due to wanting increased player vs. player interaction. It's more likely the result of the "starter stages" being commonly universal throughout the country. Since specific counterpicks occurred as regional quirks, they were less likely to receive widespread use thus less likely to retain their common usage over time. The loss of depth isn't so much an appeal towards player vs. player as it is commentary towards the negatives of dividing stages in terms of starter/counterpick ideologically.
Then the solution in this case is just to full stage strike, no?
 
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
3,114
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Idk

Maybe when the people who support apex( in MI) take their first set off me I'll agree that it cultivates improvement over gimmicking.

But tech isn't going too hiding behind a statue. And loe1 mains wario.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
In the same breath that you accuse a larger stagelist as an increased opportunity to gimmick you are also suggesting that a certain type of victory is preferable to another. Winning is winning. Some winning is more gay than others, some winning is more brainless than others, some winning is consistently reproducible, some winning is just a fluke, but winning is winning. It's on the individual player to understand that if they aren't winning with a "gimmick", they need to find a more reliable strategy. I would argue that removing the opportunity for a "bad player" to discern that they are utilizing a "gimmick" actually makes them less inclined towards sustainable improvement because you're just telling them which strategies suck ahead of time without letting them figure it out.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
This argument only increases the appeal of a more diverse stage list imo =)



Then the solution in this case is just to full stage strike, no?
More or less

There's a reason why GH2 ruleset as far as stages and striking/bans works universally, even if MK were legal.

It's because it's engineered to foster PVP through sound ideological criteria. I'd add more stages in brawl, but unfortunately most stages quantifiably alter the scoreboard outside of PVP. But definitely about 9-13 stages fit that bill.
 

Apasher

King Arthur
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
3,219
Location
Southfield, MI
NNID
Apasher
I mean, I do agree with the matter of improvement as a player gets you farther than the matter of relying on CPs
if this game actually had a balanced cast of characters.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Well if they aren't winning and they're continuously losing because they're using gimmicks then sucks to suck LOL. If they don't wake the **** up and they're losing because it's something as obvious as "abusing gimmicks", lord knows how long it would take them to get better without putting the gimmicks in front of them
 

L_Cancel

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
2,933
Location
Rockford, MI
I don't know who is all going to Apex, but the Apex stage list is good for those planning to go out of state or attend tournies that run a similar ruleset. Other than that though, I don't think it hurts to experiment. If JTsm wants to run a Japanese type ruleset, go for it. If someone else prefers another ruleset, host a tourney with that ruleset that your prefer. I honestly don't think attendance will be greatly affected if one is chosen over the other.

:sunboi:
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
I thought gimmicks were by definition things that stopped working once you know about them >_>
 

LOE1

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
1,692
my opinion is better than gio's because he's never beatin me :denzel:
 
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