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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Lucas

Noraa

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I dont even know why you are trying to discuss this match up when this whole thread is...

We can do this
Well, we can do this to stop that
No you cant if its done like this

its not getting anywhere, its pointless just go find a lucas and play it
 

KayLo!

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I dont even know why you are trying to discuss this match up when this whole thread is...

We can do this
Well, we can do this to stop that
No you cant if its done like this

its not getting anywhere, its pointless just go find a lucas and play it
Thank you. Your post really contributed to this thread.

Juuuust messing with you. But seriously, I'll see if I can play the matchup tomorrow night and get back to you guys. I think one of my friends who plays a pretty good Lucas will be at our mini-smashfest..... I've only played his Lucas in doubles so far, but I'll ask him if we can do a few 1v1s.
 

Brinzy

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Maybe that's because there are no god**** Zelda players and Lucas players on a really good level living near each other. What else do you think can be talked about?

EDIT: Well well KayLo.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Din's does open up possibilities. I'm not sure why people are super anti-Din's. They figured out a strategy around it, and suddenly it's useless? Yeah, it's kinda poor, but it isn't really a useless move...
This is correct, but so often people act like it HAS to either be good, or useless. Din's is a move with limited applications, but hardly a waste of a move slot.


Let's ask NL. He plays both lol.
I know you're joking, but, in all serious, no matter how good someone may be, one person's opinion does not a matchup ratio make.
 

Noraa

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il play some one online to help with basic things against lucas if you would like
anyone open to this?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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be wary of Fsmash...

just play lucas enough to get a feeling for how quickly it can come out and what it's range is. That is the most important thing in this matchup in my experience. Get that down before you move on.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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not really... most of the time, it's still easy to dodge. They have to be in a situation where they can't dodge or block it.
Easy to dodge or not you should be setting them up to punish after the dodge. That's where the real value of the moves comes into play not ah man they dodge it ah shucks.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Easy to dodge or not you should be setting them up to punish after the dodge. That's where the real value of the moves comes into play not ah man they dodge it ah shucks.
yes, well, patience will let them just airdodge as soon as zelda yells.
 

-Mars-

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Believe it or not I think Lucas beats Zelda. It's one of those matchups that seems a certain way on paper but when actually put into practice it is completely different. I think it's like a slight Lucas advantage....something like 55-45.

Primarily because of his pressure game on Zelda. She has trouble dealing with how fast his moveset is. I find that he has several moves that are safe on block vs. Zelda because of their quickness and almost non-existant cooldown time. He also kills her incredibly early.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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maybe it's because so many people I play against use lucas, but I think it's a **** near even matchup. if it IS lucas's advantage, it's less than 55:45
 

Brinzy

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Lucas does have fast and good moves in the form of nair, jab, and ftilt. Still, he doesn't feel all that bad for me, but I guess I gotta "play better Lucases", or whatever the character in question happens to be...

Then again, I will go air to air with Lucas, so yeah.
 

Veggie123

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I find Ness and Lucas to be some of the more exciting matchups for Zelda. Both shut down the ability to use Din's from long range, though I don't find this to be a bad thing because who gets hit by Din's Fire offstage anymore? I've been counterpicked Ness and Lucas a lot in tournaments, but I've never really understood why...sealing Din's shouldn't be a reason to pick them ever.

Lucas has a great ground game with several fast moves such as ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, jab, utilt etc. If Zelda is within range of these moves she'll probably be taking the hits, with Lucas' jab and dtilt being faster than every move Zelda has and ftilt being as fast as usmash with more horizontal range. He has a dtilt lock as well, though I don't have the details down.

His aerial game is fairly decent. It's actually probably more of a nuisance for Zelda than other characters. His dair outranges usmash and utilt so it's extremely tough to punish a falling Lucas. Nair is a good damage racker and good at applying shield pressure. Uair is fast and arguably his strongest aerial. Lucas' best approach against Zelda is probably his nair, which closes the gap between the two and autocancels so he can usually pull off another quick move right after like ftilt or jab.

PK fire will definitely be used a lot, it's a good medium ranged projectile and at max range Nayru's won't be able to reflect it back to Lucas as it disappears fairly quickly. PK thunder is also fairly good but it's super slow and can usually be reflected safely, but if not Zelda will be taking a lot of damage.

Lucas really doesn't seem to have a lot of kill moves, but the ones he does have are freakishly strong and can kill at dangerously low percentages. However all of Lucas' smashes can be telegraphed with usmash coming out at frame 28, dsmash frame 20, and even fsmash at a decent frame 14. Bthrow is actually pretty good at killing at later percents too but again his grab is fairly slow and while it is a tether, it only has the range of about Zelda's fsmash.

I think most of us know Zelda's ground game proficiency, with her fsmash and ftilt outranging all of Lucas' ground attacks save his grab. I tend to use fsmash a lot against Lucas (and in general I guess) just to keep Zelda's spacing intact. If he tries to punish fsmash with one of his ground moves, which is pretty hard to do, he'll usually get hit again. Dtilt works well as usual, however you risk Zelda getting into Lucas' range of attacks.

It's hard to punish Lucas' air game but sourspot fair and bair outrange his aerials horizontally and work nicely to keep Lucas from closing in distance. His dair trumps usmash, so usmash will probably be used considerably less in this matchup, but at least it keeps it fresh.

Din's Fire is good to use sparingly at medium range, unless you make it glaringly obvious. Most Lucas' usually assume that Din's is sealed due to his down b but it just sounds that way on paper. Most people don't have the reaction time to immediately down b a din's fire at medium/close range if it's unexpected, and if they do just detonate it off the stage.

One of Zelda's biggest weaknesses is that she can easily be exploited in the air, making it hard for her to recompose herself onto the stage. Lucas just doesn't seem to have the tools to keep her aerial, which makes it much easier to get back on the ground. His air game also offers little KO potential with his strongest probably being uair making it significantly tougher to keep a check on her. That means Lucas will probably have to rely on his smashes to get those kills, landing them can be tough though. If Zelda treads within Lucas' range on the ground though she'll have a tough time not getting hit. They can't really "camp" each other so they'll usually be in range of one another. Overall I find this matchup to be 55-45 in Zelda's favor, 50-50 is fine too though since I admit I don't know the ins and outs of Lucas as well as some. :)

Also, I have a video of me playing against Irsic back in February...lagfi mind you. I honestly think Irsic is the better player but, Lucas' mistakes are more punishable (especially on wifi :)). For some reason I spammed bair and fair tremendously during these games, but hey whatever works I guess!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpeJa_Syjpc
 

Kataefi

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Wow thanks for that summary! Lucas is able to SDI all of our smashes quite easily I believe, so that could be a pain. It's looking around even + or - . Anyone else have anything they'd like to add?
 

-Mars-

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I think Veggie summed it up very nicely in his post. It's a slight Lucas advantage due to his shield pressure game on Zelda and the quickness of his moveset. Zelda has trouble dealing with his aerials more than most other characters as his moves just come out to quick for you to react properly everytime.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Veggie kept talking about how Lucas's dair outranges us by so much, but it cant outrange zelda's wickedly powerful uair....

basically, if you stay the right distance below him , he can't innitiate a dair without eaiting a uair. And, grounded, Usmash comes out quickly enough to beat out a lucas from above unless he's initiated dair early.... in which case just sheild.


It's not like that completely marginalizes lucas's dair, but it certanly makes it look less amazing.
 

Kataefi

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Okay cool it's looking to be 45:55 Lucas' favour. Anyone got anything they'd like to add?
 

Brinzy

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I also think it's dead even.

inb4someone comes in talking about "ackarackarack not a big difference"
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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it IS a big diference between 55:45 and 50:50 though, when it comes to practicality.
 

Kataefi

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Alright I'll leave this at 50:50 but I'll make a note that if it does sway anyway, it sways in favour of Lucas... when Zelda gets into E tier this matchup can be looked into a lot more significantly.
 

Kataefi

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Some tournament organisers don't allow Zelda in for low tiers... If she makes it in then both sides will have more experience with each other. Judging from posts here a lot of strategies aren't really set in stone or anything.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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probably because it's rarely a good idea to have a set in stone strategy becuase you have to adapt to your oponent.
 

Kataefi

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Of course :) - really the only thing I meant by my post was that the matchup rarely plays at high levels of play and would change if Zelda gets into low tier, because she'd face Lucas a lot more in low tier tourneys.
 

Half-Split Soul

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When Zelda becomes truly low tier Lucas will have risen to lower middle.

You heard me predict it first ;)

But I agree with MU being even or slightly to Lucas' favor... that kid is just too fast with his moves >_<
 
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