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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Ice Climbers
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
Well they can just wait for an opening and wreck her.
Zelda really only has a real distinguishable advantage against impatient people anyway
Zelda really only has a real distinguishable advantage against impatient people anyway
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
I can understand that. Grab=death even to Zelda and despite all her range, priority, defencive skills and ability to separate Nana and Popo she isn't too good at avoiding getting grabbed. She also has trouble approaching desynched ICs if they get stock advantage.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Their uair juggles Zelda really well. Learned this the hard way while experimenting with the MU vs. Karina.
Multiple platforms are your friend. Sweetspot recovery is your friend, but you have to be extremely careful with how you come off the ledge, especially since Zelda lacks really good off-the-ledge options.
Once you separate them, though, killing Nana and dealing with Sopo isn't bad at all.
Multiple platforms are your friend. Sweetspot recovery is your friend, but you have to be extremely careful with how you come off the ledge, especially since Zelda lacks really good off-the-ledge options.
Once you separate them, though, killing Nana and dealing with Sopo isn't bad at all.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Actually, DSO biweeklies are starting up again in October.... not sure if I'll use Zelda in tournament (usually I use her for Pikas, ICs, low tiers, wifi, and people I'm significantly better than after the first match), but I'll try to do a few mms with her.
Most Wiis have infinite replay on, so I'm sure I'll have tournament/mm replays soon enough. PA had, like.... zero tournaments all summer, which is why I haven't had any good offline matches in months. -_-
Most Wiis have infinite replay on, so I'm sure I'll have tournament/mm replays soon enough. PA had, like.... zero tournaments all summer, which is why I haven't had any good offline matches in months. -_-
choknater
Smash Obsessed
since zelda can be used for pika and ic's....
sheik/zelda can literally cover every matchup
sheik/zelda can literally cover every matchup
MrEh
Smash Hero
Still doesn't help the problem that Snake and MK will plow right though them.
Elder Sister
Smash Lord
dy'all fighting IC's too?
i mean, its a good match up n stuff.
just avoid being grabbed.
and THERE lies the problem.
always tryin to not get grabbed is so nut fun
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Trufax.
Uhh, I dunno if you guys missed what I said before, but ICs juggle Zelda easily.
And getting off the ledge vs. them is dumb hard.
.....wutdy'all fighting IC's too?
i mean, its a good match up n stuff.
just avoid being grabbed.
and THERE lies the problem.
always tryin to not get grabbed is so nut fun
You edited out the word hate. Go back to my original post, it's there, and there's no "sasook edited this at_____" at the bottom.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
dins fire fsmash jab
dsmash and usmash are good moves but only use them when the time is right, otherwise u'll get grabbed and die
but spaced dins fire, fsmash, and jab cannot be punished with grab. ic's players get at my zelda
if they are on a platform above u use sh nair its like guaranteed separation
all u have to do in this matchup is keep spamming moves and knock nana away, then chase nana and hope that u kill her, then popo is ez mode just keep fsmashing
same strat
_
ahhh im sorry for the bump but i figured out some really useful stuff!!!!
basically, i kept getting stuck/confused sometimes because i didn't realize why i was getting punished for certain things. i didn't know why sometimes i would **** and sometimes i would just get ***** really hard because i got punished for dins or mis-spacing dsmashes and stuff. but i realized somethign that made me think of the matchup so much better
there are basically 4 spacings against ic's
1 long distance: obviously zelda has the advantage here. spam dins. especially good if ic's are in the air
2 mid/long distance: favorable for ic's. this is where ic's are in range of sh blizzard. u wanna AVOID this spacing because this is where ic's can react to dins by blocking and then running up and grabbing, or simply running up and grabbing. this is also where its hard to react to ic's dash attack. they can also nullify ur fsmash by jumping forward and sh blizzard, so both ur main moves of dins and fsmash are null here. so avoid this spot by jumping around and trying to get a better position! if ur pushed near the edge, u can even teleport out of this position if u have to. change ur teleport distance with either full length teleport or diagonal down teleport so that ic's can't predict and grab u
3 mid/short distance: favorable for zelda. this is fsmash range. this is a really good place to be :D fsmash a lot, and jabs are also fine here. i remember kataefi's note that jabs are very safe vs ic's. dtilt also ***** nana cuz she doesnt block when shes not with popo
4 close range: it's good for zelda, but u just dont wanna get shield grabbed here. usmash, dsmash, jab, dtilt, and in some cases nayrus love... theyre all good options but u just dont wanna get shield grabbed. its better to just try to get in fsmash range, but of course sometimes there are times where u are near them and u KNOW that ur dtilt/dsmash will connect, so just go for it
other position stuff:
- being below ic's is very good. usmash and uair are too good. usmash eats up their stuff, but sometimes ic's will just dair. this seems like a dum move but when ur just trying to wait for them to get close so u can usmash, sometimes dair will hit u. but overall dair is pretty dumb so just get under them :D
- if they are too close to the edge when recovering to spam dins, just try to go out and fair them or spike :D ****
- cool note: one thing i realized that makes it really hard for zelda is that she doesnt have an aerial that hits low enough in a short hop to strike them. bair can be used low but it doesnt autocancel when used low. i found a good option if ur facing them is to try to fall on them with nair if u have an open spot. separates them really well. ONLY IF U HAVE an open spot cuz they can shield grab if u time it wrong. but overall its a really good separator if ur jumping a lot.
anyway, the most important part of this post is AVOID THAT ONE POSITION where they can beat both dins and fsmash! i realized this and it made the matchup so much easier!!
dsmash and usmash are good moves but only use them when the time is right, otherwise u'll get grabbed and die
but spaced dins fire, fsmash, and jab cannot be punished with grab. ic's players get at my zelda
if they are on a platform above u use sh nair its like guaranteed separation
all u have to do in this matchup is keep spamming moves and knock nana away, then chase nana and hope that u kill her, then popo is ez mode just keep fsmashing
same strat
_
ahhh im sorry for the bump but i figured out some really useful stuff!!!!
basically, i kept getting stuck/confused sometimes because i didn't realize why i was getting punished for certain things. i didn't know why sometimes i would **** and sometimes i would just get ***** really hard because i got punished for dins or mis-spacing dsmashes and stuff. but i realized somethign that made me think of the matchup so much better
there are basically 4 spacings against ic's
1 long distance: obviously zelda has the advantage here. spam dins. especially good if ic's are in the air
2 mid/long distance: favorable for ic's. this is where ic's are in range of sh blizzard. u wanna AVOID this spacing because this is where ic's can react to dins by blocking and then running up and grabbing, or simply running up and grabbing. this is also where its hard to react to ic's dash attack. they can also nullify ur fsmash by jumping forward and sh blizzard, so both ur main moves of dins and fsmash are null here. so avoid this spot by jumping around and trying to get a better position! if ur pushed near the edge, u can even teleport out of this position if u have to. change ur teleport distance with either full length teleport or diagonal down teleport so that ic's can't predict and grab u
3 mid/short distance: favorable for zelda. this is fsmash range. this is a really good place to be :D fsmash a lot, and jabs are also fine here. i remember kataefi's note that jabs are very safe vs ic's. dtilt also ***** nana cuz she doesnt block when shes not with popo
4 close range: it's good for zelda, but u just dont wanna get shield grabbed here. usmash, dsmash, jab, dtilt, and in some cases nayrus love... theyre all good options but u just dont wanna get shield grabbed. its better to just try to get in fsmash range, but of course sometimes there are times where u are near them and u KNOW that ur dtilt/dsmash will connect, so just go for it
other position stuff:
- being below ic's is very good. usmash and uair are too good. usmash eats up their stuff, but sometimes ic's will just dair. this seems like a dum move but when ur just trying to wait for them to get close so u can usmash, sometimes dair will hit u. but overall dair is pretty dumb so just get under them :D
- if they are too close to the edge when recovering to spam dins, just try to go out and fair them or spike :D ****
- cool note: one thing i realized that makes it really hard for zelda is that she doesnt have an aerial that hits low enough in a short hop to strike them. bair can be used low but it doesnt autocancel when used low. i found a good option if ur facing them is to try to fall on them with nair if u have an open spot. separates them really well. ONLY IF U HAVE an open spot cuz they can shield grab if u time it wrong. but overall its a really good separator if ur jumping a lot.
anyway, the most important part of this post is AVOID THAT ONE POSITION where they can beat both dins and fsmash! i realized this and it made the matchup so much easier!!
MrEh
Smash Hero
Best stage is your favorite neutral. lol
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Smashville or Yoshi's are my favorite neutrals for ICs (platforms + longer than BF = easier to camp).
Castle Siege or Smashville for CPing.
Castle Siege or Smashville for CPing.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
best stage against ic's is any stage big enough to run away and dins fire LOL. though battlefield is still good cuz u can usmash, uair, and nair through the platforms
and by long distance i dont necessarily mean outside of blizzard range... simply put, if you think you can be punished by a running shield to a grab, a dash attack, or an sh blizzard, don't dins fire. so this usually means whenever they're recovering, falling, or if they're all at least 3/4 across the entire stage.
and by long distance i dont necessarily mean outside of blizzard range... simply put, if you think you can be punished by a running shield to a grab, a dash attack, or an sh blizzard, don't dins fire. so this usually means whenever they're recovering, falling, or if they're all at least 3/4 across the entire stage.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I played Lain's ICs in pools this weekend...people who like to use dtilt should try to avoid using it until you are guaranteed frame advantage, because good players CAN grab you out of it (even if you roll behind lol) I'm a bit wary about jab too since imo it doesn't have enough shield stun to take advantage of the low cooldown lag.
Fsmash works even better than I thought, it's kinda funny how one move can make the MU manageable. Spotdodging of course is an option for them, but if they do it too late, you have just enough time to get away unpunished.
Din's pretty much breaks whatever desync nonsense they try to do...just don't try to get fancy if you're in the lead because they can turn the tables on you so quickly it's not even funny.
Blizzard outranges, but most ICs usually short hop close range before they use it for more damage. If you see an ICs facing you and shorthopping towards you, expect a blizzard since fair is a more situational and shielded nair is riskier for them.
It's a super campy MU overall, I don't particularly like playing campy but people playing to win won't hesitate to outgay you.
Fsmash works even better than I thought, it's kinda funny how one move can make the MU manageable. Spotdodging of course is an option for them, but if they do it too late, you have just enough time to get away unpunished.
Din's pretty much breaks whatever desync nonsense they try to do...just don't try to get fancy if you're in the lead because they can turn the tables on you so quickly it's not even funny.
Blizzard outranges, but most ICs usually short hop close range before they use it for more damage. If you see an ICs facing you and shorthopping towards you, expect a blizzard since fair is a more situational and shielded nair is riskier for them.
It's a super campy MU overall, I don't particularly like playing campy but people playing to win won't hesitate to outgay you.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
thanks veggie
just curious, how did you choose to deal with blizzard? did u just roll away or something?
just curious, how did you choose to deal with blizzard? did u just roll away or something?
MrEh
Smash Hero
Din's Fire yo.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
I honestly don't remember trying to punish it ever...I take it as an opportunity to respace I guess lol (like literally walking away). Blizzard lasts long enough so that you probably could punish it, but I usually play the MU super safe so I play pretty boring/campy. If you can see it coming, short hop backwards Din's seems like an ok trade, but I haven't tried it myself so can't really say how safe it is!
Don't think I'll be playing any ICs anytime again soon though, so maybe you can find out chok :D!