Matchup Discussion: MK

[Dabuz]

ok so, my old post on how to fight this MU has recently become out-dated and doesn't help as mks start to learn and adapt, time to reboot this MU, looking for feedback from all olimars, as long as its helpful or raises possible ideas.

 

[Dnyce]

For reference, here's Dabuz' old post on the MK Match-up. I'll make my own input later
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9300299&postcount=470

 

[Dabuz]

omg...yeah, **** none of that stuff works anymore >_>

 

[RichBrown]

I've been doing grounded upBs lately just to troll the **** out of them, cuz they like to nado right in that range, or jump into it haha

Idk I just try to predict when they are gonna rising dair and hit them. And sometimes I'll dash away and then dash back and fair. Dashing away and back is really good in general. Just avoid getting stuck in your shield and stay really offensive. Retreating fair on their shield when you land so you don't get grabbed. Bait stuff with sh autocanceled nair. Baiting w/ shorthops when they are above you is sooo good. Try to stay pretty grounded, but snea those fairs and uairs in (yellow fair sneaks through a lot of things).

I still have trouble punishing nado =(

I think our nair beats MK's sideB lmao

But yeah stay offensive when they are near us and in general because they will try to creep in and make us feel uncomfortable and wait for us to **** up **** those *****es grounded upB fair dash away to stutterstep fsmash **** those bats they can't do **** son

 

[SuSa]

If you feel like doing maths:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11362241&postcount=1

Look into doing that, but for Olimars moves?

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Nothing much to say but:

- Dont approach!! punish!!
- Pivot Grab when possible, not obviously.
- Up-B tornados, they are very predictable
- Fsmash, Usmash.
- White and purple pikmin are key
- You cant win a match without doing the hoola-hoola taunt.
- Hoola-hoola taunt DAMINT!

 

[Asa]

i disagree about whites being key

mk can knock them off b4 they do any damage

yellows/purples/blues as always

 

[Dabuz]

except for me and richbrown...olimars don't care about advancing the metagame ;_;

 

[KaptainKrunch]

Some good punishes for nado is Dsmash when they're close and just a basic grab if they start spot dodging. No real options if the have time to roll towards you.

 

[PSI.kick]

yeah don't approach, also another way to get through nado is nair above it.

 

[Dnyce]

You know I care dabuz... I just don't have the time to go through and label everything... but if it helps, here's an aim conversation between domo and I talking about the MU after watching sets between us, as well as you/rich/logic matches on youtube.

Domo
New fundamentals of the MU: do not jump unless you have more than 4 pikmin
Domo
Like 3 and below don't jump
Domo
It causes too many problems when trying to land and stuff
Domo
Most times when you have a low amount of pikmin like that after a aerial chase you have about 1 left when you land if you get hit you gimped
Domo
Keep as many pikmin in line as possible at all times this is a must
Domo
And keep them whistled and in line
Domo
Stray pikmin cause too many problems in this matchup
Domo
Understand that the mk want you to throw pikmin from most of the screen away this is effective due to the fact that 1. He can kill your pikmin line and if he swoops in your ***** if you get offstage and 2. He can refresh his moves while killing pikmin thus keeping all his gimping tools fresh.
Domo
To counter this throw like 2 and when he jumps to nair and stuff chase him with uairs and usmashes
Domo
Mk can't handle oli well under him. The payoff for 1 good aerial chase by oli is too much
Collin Finocchiaro
small vs big stage against mk?
Domo
You have a viable strategy either way
Domo
Small levels don't leave him much landing room you wanna cover massive amounts of space wit smashes when he's trying to land
Domo
Shieldpokes will **** him
Domo
He can't keep you off if you smart about it
Domo
Usmash to run away pivot grab will **** him
Domo
He jumps you running usmash or uair depending on how high he is off the ground
Collin Finocchiaro
what if he just stays on the ground?
Domo
To counter dair camp uair off a shield hit. Mks still has frame disadvantage off shield hit jus most characters can't punish through the transcendent priority but oli can use that
Domo
If he stays on the ground fsmash pivot grab all day
Domo
Yea uair is safe cause 90 percent of mks will retreating dair which means when you do that they will be tryin to dair again..... It will **** the second dair
Domo
Now when they are conditioned to the uair oos they will dair airdodge....can you say usmash 
Domo
Our fair or dair
Domo
Or*
Domo
Or bair lol pick one that will kill
Domo
Aggro in this matchup is situational and I will over that part too
Domo
Now in this mu you can bait very effectively..
Domo
Empty ff short hops will **** tornado approaches
Domo
Cause you won't have lag. You shield nado mk gets punished
Domo
You will need to walk most times if you wanna be safe cause when you put all this into play it shuts down mks game
Domo
Walking will allow you not to get punished for a missed shield or anything
Domo
Now say the mk is walkin around and waiting for you to do something
Domo
Most times he's watchn for the jump
Domo
When you gonna pikmin throw
Domo
Idk why olis do that but 2 more things will come into play here
Domo
When you pivot grab run a little extra bit b4 you grab
Domo
The goal now is to grab jus outside of where the mk is. He will only get grabbed if he approaches and you will b safe this way
Domo
Do not spotdodge in this mu. If you do do it very seldom jump or run away
Domo
If you jump you got good priority aerials that will beat out shuttle loop and if you run you got all kinds options. Pivot grab running usmash to dsmash if the come after you.. Stuff like that
Domo
Now if you run and they take to the air you know wat to do
Domo
And also use pivot grab on mks landing to make it super difficult to land
Domo
The lad on the grab box will take most mks by surprise. Since most of em spot dodge on landing
Domo
Or you can usmash to dmash if you know they got a low shield
Domo
And o yea when recovering go as high as possible and dair if you above the stage it has a laggy hitbox and outranges nair so mk will have to uair which will keep you alive
Domo
Anything you feel I'm leaving out
Domo
O yea usmash oos on mks nair
Domo
And if mk lands next to you when he's rushing you and you can't get away jump
Domo
Worst thing that happens to olis when they get pressured like that is the get downsmashed
Domo
Which ***** them
Domo
Jump
Domo
You have a good jump height so mk won't hit you wit a buffered dair oos
Domo
He will have to at least double jus and on reaction you can jus nair fair or bair depending on position
Domo
Also when mk is in the air approaching in the blind spot don't shield unless they tornado
Domo
Don't be scared of all the dairs unless they close enough to hit u
Domo
Cause a lot of olis waste their shield on whiffed dairs
Domo
Then the nado pokes and it's over
Domo
And if he in the blind spot jus randomly auto cancel and up
Domo
But make the timing inconsistent so they don't know when you gon do it
Domo
Then they will jus be reacting on your jump and air dodging
Domo
That diffuses the pressure cause now you can jus run upsmash and keep truckin on to the middle of the stage and continue the strat
Domo
If a mk fairs your shield you need to learn to get the timing tight so you can fair him oos
Domo
Yea make sure in that zone where you can't pikmin throw or you will get nadod
Domo
Make sure while you there you 1. Get six pikmin out 2. Don't jump 3. Walk and close that space by smashing his shield and doin the pivot grab I told you about so you don't get punished
Domo
Then you will be safe he will have to take to the air then you do wat I told you to do if he in the air
Domo
O and space uair well cause he can nado and land and chase you.
Domo
That's it unless you got a situation you want me to go thru

 

[Dabuz]

when i read that, i moaned a little bit

 

[Dnyce]

when i read that, i moaned a little bit

 

[RichBrown]

****ing awesome thanks!

 

[ScAtt77]

I just have one thing to say which may or may not help but:

Most good MKs that I play tend to Nado over Olimar's grab range, so crouching may actually help Olimar in this match up. Once you crouch, you can bait out a nado that is low to the ground. From there, you can pivot grab him out of it.

 

[Dnyce]

I just have one thing to say which may or may not help but:

Most good MKs that I play tend to Nado over Olimar's grab range, so crouching may actually help Olimar in this match up. Once you crouch, you can bait out a nado that is low to the ground. From there, you can pivot grab him out of it.

If you have enough time to consciously think to crouch an oncoming nado, you have enough time to consciously think to upB

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

so m2k is coming over my house and staying for three days starting today lol

but were gonna be playing mostly melee

 

[Dnyce]

so m2k is coming over my house and staying for three days starting today lol

but were gonna be playing mostly melee

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traitor <.<

 

[Timic83]

its like a vortex of hidden messages

 

[Denti]

I'm very very lazy so I wont post why but, this MU is 50-50...

 

[-Vocal-]

I've been doing grounded upBs lately just to troll the **** out of them, cuz they like to nado right in that range, or jump into it haha

You just won the thread.

Epic WoT of Epic

@Rich: You just won the thread.

@Denyce: You just won the thread.

I really wish I could help but I'm currently in no shape to contribute Keep the good information coming though guys. And when a new, important thread comes up, someone should really post about it in the social so I don't miss it for 4 days lol

 

[Greward]

6-4 MK

too lazy to write something long

 

[KaptainKrunch]

Anyone have the solution for our 45 degree angle dilemma -__-

 

[Dnyce]

Anyone have the solution for our 45 degree angle dilemma -__-

A utility belt that shoots at a 45 degree angle?

 

[-Vocal-]

Anyone have the solution for our 45 degree angle dilemma -__-

Grounded tether.

Nuff said.








Oh yea and pivot grab and the like etc.


But really just beastly use of grounded tether ^_^ I mean it's a perfect freaking 45 degree angle, what more could you ask for to cover a "45 degree blindspot?"

Ninja'd by Denyce :/ But grounded tether was totally my idea so it's cool anywhays

 

[Dabuz]

lol vocal, you brought back grounded tether, but did not invent it, but beware if you have an amazing read, use it, but otherwise one misuse=being grabbed=possible death by mk

 

[Jane]

yeah, its the most risk-rewardy move oli has haha

 

[-Vocal-]

lol vocal, you brought back grounded tether, but did not invent it, but beware if you have an amazing read, use it, but otherwise one misuse=being grabbed=possible death by mk

I know my way around a grounded tether And before me the general rule was "Never use grounded tether;" people only started giving it a chance after I started plugging it all the time True, I didn't invent it, I just made it cool (h)

 

[IcyLight]

anyone have the solution for our 45 degree angle dilemma -__-

jump whistle nair. and i'v always used grounded tether, especially vs. mk. you can run away from him and reverse grounded tether his ****, it's pro

 

[-Vocal-]

jump whistle nair. and i'v always used grounded tether, especially vs. mk. you can run away from him and reverse grounded tether his ****, it's pro

That's one of the things I keep telling myself to do; I taught myself how to reverse grounded tether over the summer but never think to use it

 

[wwwilliam0024]

You guys are forgeting the Hoola hoola taunt!!! THAT IS KEY TO VICTORY!!

 

[Angbad]

What do I do against nado and why does nair sometimes knock them out but not all the time?

 

[-Vocal-]

What do I do against nado and why does nair sometimes knock them out but not all the time?

Nair will only work if you hit in the middle of Nado; otherwise you'll hit a hitbox and get sucked in. Really the best thing to do is become used to when MK will Nado over time and then plan to avoid it (possibly punish), but when you do get hit whistling the last hit is a good option. Be careful, as the MK might then adjust to this and start dropping early, letting you whistle, and then punishing you afterwards (happened to me at my last tourney >.>).

If you're grounded, you can also tether it if your reflexes/prediction skills are good enough.

 

[Hai Im Fearless]

m2k is too good. I quit

 

[iamjason8]

When I play this I just camp as much as I can and F-Air. When he's at high enough I just run up and U-Smash.

(Y)

 

[Zori]

^ best strat iv heard

 

[SuSa]

I want to see vids of Rich vs M2K.

:leek:

 

[PSI.kick]

^^^yeah that.

which pikminz should we be usin?
purples,
blues,
reds,
yellow,
i know purples are good, whites are ok every once in a while, but what main group should we try to stick with?

i like how most of what we've discussed is nado lol, what about shuttle loop? whistle then punish? ledgehog if offstage? hoola hoola taunt baiting to a pivot grab? come on!

i think we need more on shuttle loop, like what are good ways to punish it if they are being stupid.
Maybe some on his side b, that attack can be annoying, sometimes can be hard to punish cuz you need to wait it out (priority is stupid) then have quick timing to punish. I did hear something about nair beating it from richbrown, if that's true then great.
Aerials? mk will push us off the stage to a deep pit of despair (better known as the bottom corners) and we're done. Obvious ways to prevent this
-stay away from edges
-don't be stupid
-everything else about this mu
-???
but what about when we are in the situation and have no options? A good MK will usually read a whistle then just continue on gimping us, in which case there's nothing we can do. This situation happens a lot, we need to have more options.
Juggling- Whistle maybe? air dodge? usually = read into shuttle loop or another aerial, them waiting for us to get ***** again. Use aerials maybe? dair? nair? Whistle is a great option, but it can easily be waited out, there's enough lag in betweeen the super armor and the ending of the move to get punished hard, especially by mk. I guess what i'm trying to say is we should have more options than simply whistling an attack, which we all know.
Repetition repetition repetition, drive it into your scull until you are sick of it, then you won't even think about it anymore, you just do it.

idk i guess im just trying to say theres a lot more to mk than the things that are up front, usually it's the subtle things that screw us over.

 

[Dnyce]

all rich did was spam grab... and m2k was like "****, no options" and he threw his controller across the premier stations.

 

[PSI.kick]

LOL
best strategy, my bad there is nothing to this matchup at all xD