Jane
Smash Hero
So smashville is bad also? Since its even smaller than bf...
How long is lylat and ps1 compared to the other neutrals?
How long is lylat and ps1 compared to the other neutrals?
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Matchup Discussion - Marth
- Thread starter DtJ Hilt
- Start date
PSIQuasi
Smash Cadet
So, is Smashville still good against Marth? I would think as long as Oli could keep his distance from him, I feel like an extensive hit and run strategy could help. Whistle could make for a few good saves in the air.
RichBrown
Smash Master
Ban Battlefield against Marth
BF being a good stage for Oli is more or less a myth imo
I usually try to get FD or PS1 against Marth
Frigate is good against Marth imo but let them CP it, Delfino is decent as well, again let them CP it
Castle Siege is a really good Oli stage but I haven't really tested it in any MUs extensively other than against MK (I feel obligated to credit Dabuz every time I mention that haha)
If you win on FD and then he bans PS1 or something like that, just go smashville or something
BF being a good stage for Oli is more or less a myth imo
I usually try to get FD or PS1 against Marth
Frigate is good against Marth imo but let them CP it, Delfino is decent as well, again let them CP it
Castle Siege is a really good Oli stage but I haven't really tested it in any MUs extensively other than against MK (I feel obligated to credit Dabuz every time I mention that haha)
If you win on FD and then he bans PS1 or something like that, just go smashville or something
volume
Smash Apprentice
i dont main these characters at all, but i do have some "smarts" when it comes to MU's, i only know MU i cant play like i know them lol.
anyways the olimar marth MU is either 60-40 (marth) or 55-45 (marth) either way he has an advantage. olimar cant camp marth that well and cant exactly stop his approach, but sheild grabbing marth as olimar is a amazing tactic although marth can use his dolphin slash to be near un-punishable, though shielding still destroy's most of his smash's and approach's a good marth will try not to be punished for these kinds of things meaning shield breaker can be used effectively only if the player is skilled at reading the opponants "movements," range wise forward smash kills marth but when marth uses his air game and forward air the f-smash is not going to hit and most likely only option is to shield so if a marth reads that the olimar has only maybe two or so options marth can use shield breaker and break olimar's decently small shield, also f-air actually kills all pikman in the hit (exept the purple one) and reaches farther so olimar is left with these attributes:
grabbing, f-smash, up-air, up smash and d-smash
meaning spam your **** lol
other than that the MU in my opinion and from what i supposedly "know" its a 60-40 marths favour due to:
poor options, poor camping against him, light (meaning a tipper at low percents is deadly), poor recovery being easily gimped by marth, and being shield pressured by marth fairly easily.
anyways the olimar marth MU is either 60-40 (marth) or 55-45 (marth) either way he has an advantage. olimar cant camp marth that well and cant exactly stop his approach, but sheild grabbing marth as olimar is a amazing tactic although marth can use his dolphin slash to be near un-punishable, though shielding still destroy's most of his smash's and approach's a good marth will try not to be punished for these kinds of things meaning shield breaker can be used effectively only if the player is skilled at reading the opponants "movements," range wise forward smash kills marth but when marth uses his air game and forward air the f-smash is not going to hit and most likely only option is to shield so if a marth reads that the olimar has only maybe two or so options marth can use shield breaker and break olimar's decently small shield, also f-air actually kills all pikman in the hit (exept the purple one) and reaches farther so olimar is left with these attributes:
grabbing, f-smash, up-air, up smash and d-smash
meaning spam your **** lol
other than that the MU in my opinion and from what i supposedly "know" its a 60-40 marths favour due to:
poor options, poor camping against him, light (meaning a tipper at low percents is deadly), poor recovery being easily gimped by marth, and being shield pressured by marth fairly easily.
DUB
Smash Lord
Falco can Up-Smash after the 3rd hit of Dancing Blade. Can Olimar hit him out of the 3rd hit with Up-Smash or another quick move?
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I've grabbed after the third hit before, but I'm not sure this works if the Marth times the DC quickly.
But anyways: we've covered strategies and stages - are we done here? I ask since the last replies were 5 days ago and if this one's done then we can move on to another. Like, oh i don't know - ICIES.
Or anyone else lol, just as long as we keep things moving
But anyways: we've covered strategies and stages - are we done here? I ask since the last replies were 5 days ago and if this one's done then we can move on to another. Like, oh i don't know - ICIES.
Or anyone else lol, just as long as we keep things moving
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Since Olimar likes the ground, and flat stages, Marths tend to do the aerial spacing game here.
The standard Marth fair tipper can be ***** by roll, stutter steps, pivot grabs(?), and even just jumping away and throwing a Side-B (better be a heavy one so you can followup on his shield if he does react)
Ballzy Marths can jump over your head and land behind you to get a move ahead.
They also can decide to not fair and land for a grab.
Realize when this happens and try to REACT to his shorthops rather than anticipate fairs every time.
When getting back on stage, realize that getting hit with good DI means you get more options to land on stage. Also realize that wavebounce whistle is ridiculously difficult to punish, and that if your whistle is baited by an empty hop you can simply whistle again to maintain invincibility when you get aerial'd.
The ledge is not a terrible place for you, as not even a good Marth can actually force you to die. Just be patient, do whatever ledge-regrab for invincibility shenanigans, and be careful when uairing him through the stage. The normal get up is a smart option against Marths if followed with a shield->grab. It's relatively low risk, but if Marth throws out the first move you should react because it's a free recovery. The longer you wait the more angsty a Marth may get in trying to do nothing to you. But watch the buffered dtilt if you take too long.
This is a spacing battle, zone him off the stage, and don't get put in the air because unless you whistle/airdodge through back on the stage you will be on the ledge soon after. Same goes to Marth. And if he mis-spaces, or if you can time a powershield, try to upsmash his ****
The standard Marth fair tipper can be ***** by roll, stutter steps, pivot grabs(?), and even just jumping away and throwing a Side-B (better be a heavy one so you can followup on his shield if he does react)
Ballzy Marths can jump over your head and land behind you to get a move ahead.
They also can decide to not fair and land for a grab.
Realize when this happens and try to REACT to his shorthops rather than anticipate fairs every time.
When getting back on stage, realize that getting hit with good DI means you get more options to land on stage. Also realize that wavebounce whistle is ridiculously difficult to punish, and that if your whistle is baited by an empty hop you can simply whistle again to maintain invincibility when you get aerial'd.
The ledge is not a terrible place for you, as not even a good Marth can actually force you to die. Just be patient, do whatever ledge-regrab for invincibility shenanigans, and be careful when uairing him through the stage. The normal get up is a smart option against Marths if followed with a shield->grab. It's relatively low risk, but if Marth throws out the first move you should react because it's a free recovery. The longer you wait the more angsty a Marth may get in trying to do nothing to you. But watch the buffered dtilt if you take too long.
This is a spacing battle, zone him off the stage, and don't get put in the air because unless you whistle/airdodge through back on the stage you will be on the ledge soon after. Same goes to Marth. And if he mis-spaces, or if you can time a powershield, try to upsmash his ****
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
But no, seriously, rolling is a terrible idea. I would know...
What Marth have you been playing that you can get away with things like this? It's probably the worst place in the matchup; Marth could possibly be the best edge-guarder in the game.
Marth is amazing at keeping you on the ledge, but he punishes you when you get off it to try and get in, not while you're sitting there. Also, I don't know how Marth may punish upair through the ground. It doesn't seem like it's punishable with anything other than a hard-read ledgegrab...and even then it's probably not a gimp on a chilled out mindset Olimar if it is possible.
Infinite patience, it's how you should play Brawl, it's how you should play Melee with some characters, and it's how you should handle being on the ledge. The time when you get ***** on the ledge is the time you think "I'll just jump up and fair him even though he's just standing there", not when you think "I'll force him to make the first move and then either bait the shield and grab or get a quick usmash in".
I'm the Marth. I posted here to let you guys know my side of the matchup.
It's in your head when you let a Marth be the dominant force if you're on the ledge. It's far worse for Marth on the ledge because of his carry-over lag from Up-B recovery coupled with Olimar's punish-range. Also, if you eat an Fair and you DI it correctly (up and in) you have no problem - use the height to get in with your whistle or aerial. Thus if you can't see an opening and feel pressured (you should try not to give in to pressure but in tournament sometimes you have to), get prepared with the right DI or whistle the hit if you know the timing with which it will get you.
I really like the idea of whoever said switch out to the purple pikmin and jump back to throw it at Marth, then land and grab his shield. That is a very specific, move-limiting approach from the ledge and therefore is a solid thing to try. At least the first time you pull it off, I doubt the Marth will be prepared. And the second time, if he drops an fair offstage to kill you, and you don't do the same thing....he's stuck on the ledge. Baited by the mere option.
Situation winning tech.
Rolling is always an OPTION. If it's a terrible idea, then my bad. I assumed Olimar's roll range was decent. If Marth ever mis-spaces getting behind him is the smartest thing you can do however - unless he's Neo and he was baiting it. However even Neo sometimes gets put in a terrible position by people rolling behind him.
If you NEVER roll you will have one less option in dealing with offensives like Fair-aerial rushes. You can't just let those happen more than once, use your ROLL. Stop pretending this is THEORYBRAWLCRAFT when you're playing human opponents. Theorybrawlcraft tactics include the lovely task of LIMITING THE OPTIONS YOU LET YOURSELF USE. A terrible thing to do in competitive play.
Times to roll (using specific examples from the last videos I remember watching):
-Mikehaze's fthrow (Tyrant did this) - fastfall, land, and roll behind Mikehaze
-Neo's Fair when he thinks he's going to land it and is DIing forward to follow up (Chu Dat did this) - roll behind, and he's in a terrible position
Note: Fair tippers from a 45 degree angle that means he's actually position too high/close. Hence a tipper that can be ruined by a preemptive roll.
Thanks for the critique of my previous post, I didn't realize some points needed more clarification.
Infinite patience, it's how you should play Brawl, it's how you should play Melee with some characters, and it's how you should handle being on the ledge. The time when you get ***** on the ledge is the time you think "I'll just jump up and fair him even though he's just standing there", not when you think "I'll force him to make the first move and then either bait the shield and grab or get a quick usmash in".
I'm the Marth. I posted here to let you guys know my side of the matchup.
It's in your head when you let a Marth be the dominant force if you're on the ledge. It's far worse for Marth on the ledge because of his carry-over lag from Up-B recovery coupled with Olimar's punish-range. Also, if you eat an Fair and you DI it correctly (up and in) you have no problem - use the height to get in with your whistle or aerial. Thus if you can't see an opening and feel pressured (you should try not to give in to pressure but in tournament sometimes you have to), get prepared with the right DI or whistle the hit if you know the timing with which it will get you.
I really like the idea of whoever said switch out to the purple pikmin and jump back to throw it at Marth, then land and grab his shield. That is a very specific, move-limiting approach from the ledge and therefore is a solid thing to try. At least the first time you pull it off, I doubt the Marth will be prepared. And the second time, if he drops an fair offstage to kill you, and you don't do the same thing....he's stuck on the ledge. Baited by the mere option.
Situation winning tech.
Rolling is always an OPTION. If it's a terrible idea, then my bad. I assumed Olimar's roll range was decent. If Marth ever mis-spaces getting behind him is the smartest thing you can do however - unless he's Neo and he was baiting it. However even Neo sometimes gets put in a terrible position by people rolling behind him.
If you NEVER roll you will have one less option in dealing with offensives like Fair-aerial rushes. You can't just let those happen more than once, use your ROLL. Stop pretending this is THEORYBRAWLCRAFT when you're playing human opponents. Theorybrawlcraft tactics include the lovely task of LIMITING THE OPTIONS YOU LET YOURSELF USE. A terrible thing to do in competitive play.
Times to roll (using specific examples from the last videos I remember watching):
-Mikehaze's fthrow (Tyrant did this) - fastfall, land, and roll behind Mikehaze
-Neo's Fair when he thinks he's going to land it and is DIing forward to follow up (Chu Dat did this) - roll behind, and he's in a terrible position
Note: Fair tippers from a 45 degree angle that means he's actually position too high/close. Hence a tipper that can be ruined by a preemptive roll.
Thanks for the critique of my previous post, I didn't realize some points needed more clarification.
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Hey there!! no one remembers me but....
Marth has really started to be a pain in the ***.
the MU mentally is based way to much on reading the opponent, besides the fact he can easily gimp you and keep you off the stage.
I would like to discuss the few things that olimar must do in order to fight him.
Marth has really started to be a pain in the ***.
the MU mentally is based way to much on reading the opponent, besides the fact he can easily gimp you and keep you off the stage.
I would like to discuss the few things that olimar must do in order to fight him.
throw pikmin at him until you can fsmash, pivot grab or usmash his attacks oos
E
emo dabuz
Guest
fino's trolling makes me laugh
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Its annoying not being able to Dodge or Roll or even run in this MU.
Indeed spamming spikmins until he makes an error is the only way... :S
Indeed spamming spikmins until he makes an error is the only way... :S
Jane
Smash Hero
spamming pikmin is just gonna get you hit lol
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
I just read Crackles post, hes very wrong in some stuff.
Well first of all:
1- Rolling is not a friend in this MU, marth can simply spam SideB or any atack he wishes when you roll, it would be better for you to take the Fair than rolling. Fairs can be evaded by running or simply shielding.
2- The edge/ledge is probably the WORST place to ever be, an olimar in a Ledge/edge only means one thing, KO or Lots of damage, when you are in a corner or hanging by the edge, your options get reduced by allot, most times leading you to a certain death or simply just getting about 30% before touching the stage again.
3- Whistle recover to get back in the stage, VS a marth???? well it is good at some pressure points where you dont have many options or simply dont know what to do, but THIS BECOMES VERY EXPECTED, A good marth player is always watching your recovery for a certain GIMP, if you happen to double jump with a whistle but he doesnt attack you, dont think you can whistle again, you will get FAIR'd and will die, what i normally do is, If the marth player is going to attack you, instead of risking your ****ing life with a whistle jump, take the ATTACK like a MAN! and SDi up, to get more space to get back, of course if you have alot of % this is risky, what im saying... IT IS ALWAYS RISKY TO RECOVER WITH OLIMAR NO MATTER WHAT MEASURES YOU TAKE, WHISTLE IS NOT A SAFE MEASURE!!!!!!!! ITS ONLY A 50/50 CHANCE OF RECOVERING DEPENDING ON HOW WELL U USE IT!
4- just dont.. roll.... ever.... unless you like smashes and SideB's....
Well first of all:
1- Rolling is not a friend in this MU, marth can simply spam SideB or any atack he wishes when you roll, it would be better for you to take the Fair than rolling. Fairs can be evaded by running or simply shielding.
2- The edge/ledge is probably the WORST place to ever be, an olimar in a Ledge/edge only means one thing, KO or Lots of damage, when you are in a corner or hanging by the edge, your options get reduced by allot, most times leading you to a certain death or simply just getting about 30% before touching the stage again.
3- Whistle recover to get back in the stage, VS a marth???? well it is good at some pressure points where you dont have many options or simply dont know what to do, but THIS BECOMES VERY EXPECTED, A good marth player is always watching your recovery for a certain GIMP, if you happen to double jump with a whistle but he doesnt attack you, dont think you can whistle again, you will get FAIR'd and will die, what i normally do is, If the marth player is going to attack you, instead of risking your ****ing life with a whistle jump, take the ATTACK like a MAN! and SDi up, to get more space to get back, of course if you have alot of % this is risky, what im saying... IT IS ALWAYS RISKY TO RECOVER WITH OLIMAR NO MATTER WHAT MEASURES YOU TAKE, WHISTLE IS NOT A SAFE MEASURE!!!!!!!! ITS ONLY A 50/50 CHANCE OF RECOVERING DEPENDING ON HOW WELL U USE IT!
4- just dont.. roll.... ever.... unless you like smashes and SideB's....
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Its not always that simple Dnyce, wait till you face a good marth... you must be unpredictable at every moment.
I've played just about every good marth in the US aside from neo. I guess what I say doesn't matter though - lol, I remember using that argument... the good ole days ^^;
EDIT: btw, you're perfectly capable of rolling the the MU, it's just not always a good idea. If Marth is in the air, go for it.
Throw pikmin at his until you can:
Space forward smash if he's zoning you with aerials (like SH fair towards you, but not trying to actually hit you) - imagine you're trying to hit his feet.
usmash OOS every time he tries to hit you with an aerial.. or any move in general. Even a tipper shield breaker will get punished but usmash oos (auto desync). You can usmash oos in between the third and fourth hit of dancing blade.
constantly throw out spaced pivot grabs and hope he lands into it. if he doesn't you're safe, but be prepared to immediately follow up with the above options
pay attention to purples and make sure that one lands no matter what. marth's nair beats purple toss (for the most part), but I think that's about it.
You should almost never:
1) dash grab - you will get *****
2) spot dodge - shielding will most likely be a better option against marth since his grabs only do like 3% or something while dancing blade or another attack will do significantly more
3) intentionally jump when you are within 2-2.5 fair distances (ie, take the range of fair and multiply it by that number)
4) try to do grab combo follow-up in mid/mid-low% - react to what he does before you decide if you want to punish or something
5) use dthrow unless you have a specific conscious idea of how you can follow-up... go for fthrows/bthrows... cause you want that ***** as far away as possible (plus.. free pikmin toss time)
6) be scared - don't be afraid to take aggressive options against marth... we have the range, our fair is fast, do it
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Thx for the tips. :D
one thing, heres a situation i face allot of times. What do you recommend to do?
I do as you say, throw pikmin, space well and Fsmash when i can.
The marth is tired of my punishments so he decides not to approach and kill all my pikmins instead, i proceed throwing pikmins for there isnt really much to , he approaches but chages his gamestyle, you Fsmash but he power shields into a smash, he Fairs but when you try to Oos Usmash he Up B. Dodging in these situations will only get you Sideb or smashed. :S
All of this can be countered, but in certain situations you just forget what must be done.
one thing, heres a situation i face allot of times. What do you recommend to do?
I do as you say, throw pikmin, space well and Fsmash when i can.
The marth is tired of my punishments so he decides not to approach and kill all my pikmins instead, i proceed throwing pikmins for there isnt really much to , he approaches but chages his gamestyle, you Fsmash but he power shields into a smash, he Fairs but when you try to Oos Usmash he Up B. Dodging in these situations will only get you Sideb or smashed. :S
All of this can be countered, but in certain situations you just forget what must be done.
This is the BEST thing that can happen to you, but I can tell you what your problem is already: patience.
Think about it - if you're throwing pikmin and he's just fairing away, that's gotta be one ****in stale fair. Now, each pikmin has its own amount of durability correct? So if he's waiting for you to approach, just keep tossin them *****es as hard and fast as you can, cause what're you going to be left with? The two most durable - purples and blues - now he's really ****ed.
I was playin a couple marths on wifi earlier today, every match I had a stock where I ended up with 4 purple pikmin. You can just imagine the devastation that caused - all because I was patient and let them kill my less important pikmin. Just keep pluckin and tossin
Also, if you fsmash, and he's on the ground... you're not aiming fsmash at his feet like I said. fsmash should be used mostly on his aerial approaches, though you can usually get decently "good" marths with fsmash if they dash in for a follow up that's not guaranteed.
Also - are you jump cancelling your upsmash? if you do that you cut off 7 frames and that should solve your dolphin slash problem. dolphin slash is why I said dash grab is bad etc.
ScAtt77
Smash Journeyman
Tether has made this match up soooooooo much easier for me...
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Seems good, today we made a little brawl league again, the marth was there, it was more uncomfortable but i kinda got into it, to the point i was almost always 2 stocking him.
But yeah patience is a problem :S
and no i dont Jump cancel my Usmashes :S and personally i dont use Oos since my tap jump is off :S
But yeah patience is a problem :S
and no i dont Jump cancel my Usmashes :S and personally i dont use Oos since my tap jump is off :S
Slain Avenger
Smash Ace
Learn how to do it w/o tap jump. I thought same at first, but after I turned tap jump off to be able to Instant Return I got used to OoS without it.
jc usmash oos makes almost every hard match-up infinitely easier. It's not hard to do with tap-jump off... when you're in your shield, do an upsmash command with your control stick + A... except hit x/y first and just kinda slide your thumb to A.
Takes a bit of practice to get comfortable with... but it makes almost every move in the game unsafe on shield - mostly because if you time it right the pikmin will auto-desync and hit the opponent.
Not abusing usmash oos is like saying you don't do dthrow combos.... it's madness @.@
EDIT: like... sliding your thumb from jump to attack should be one fluid motion while you're moving your control stick up (if that helps)
Edit2: fair/dair/nair oos are pretty beast too, same idea... except don't slide your finger, just imagine you're fairing like normal
Greward
Smash Lord
dair oos ***** him. true story
wwwilliam0024
Smash Journeyman
Thx Dnyce. I will start testing it out!!! ^_^