Matchup Book: Updated with Link(10/27) Back on track!

[Teh Future]

Im way more rigorous about being on schedule for this than i am for any type of homework XD.

Good plan lol...

I still haven't looked at this, although I prob will tomorrow or this weekend if I dont have time. Seems like a good idea

 

[swordgard]

I caught a cold, dont know if i can keep updating at this rate till forever >.<.



I am at the same amount as the matchup thread O.o

 

[Teh Future]

Swordgard you said youc an pivotgrab falco out of sideB but Im like 99% sure thats not true unless you're talking about the end of it, but you could shieldgrab that anyways and if you are in the middle of where falco would be shouldn't you use Blizzard anyways?

 

[Prawn]

If you want info on IC dittos ask Chudat hes the master of them lol

 

[swordgard]

Swordgard you said youc an pivotgrab falco out of sideB but Im like 99% sure thats not true unless you're talking about the end of it, but you could shieldgrab that anyways and if you are in the middle of where falco would be shouldn't you use Blizzard anyways?

You can go through using metaknights attack but not with alot of the other ones. This means transcedent priority goes through, which is the case of grab. But yeah hes invincible during the 1st part of it, but after the middle hes vulnerable to pivot grab and other stuff. Yes blizzard works too, i think i forgot to put it, the problem is he can easily reflect it back to you.


I try not to rely on others info, but yeah i could ask chu. The point of this is i often do additionnal research and try to come up with stuff noone did before(Standing cg on fox XD).

 

[Teh Future]

Im just saying if you predict a side B and you are in the middle of it, you can blizzard instead of just shielding it and not being able to punish. If you are at a certain distance you can also short hop air dodge backwards and grab him, but its hard to time. Ive never tried pivot grabbing though if it works that's.... just dumb lol. Also Im pretty sure only some of MKs moves go through it. I dont think f or bair do, but I could be wrong.

 

[swordgard]

Im just saying if you predict a side B and you are in the middle of it, you can blizzard instead of just shielding it and not being able to punish. If you are at a certain distance you can also short hop air dodge backwards and grab him, but its hard to time. Ive never tried pivot grabbing though if it works that's.... just dumb lol. Also Im pretty sure only some of MKs moves go through it. I dont think f or bair do, but I could be wrong.

All of his moves go through, they all have transcendent priority.


Save for nado and glide attack and dash attack, but up b and nado still go through.

 

[Teh Future]

mmmmm... I dunno falco's overB is so dumb, it seems like half of the time stuff will go through but half of the time you get hit.

oh falolco. Ill have to try pg out of sideB but for one I still doubt it works lol and if it does its probably dumb hard to do. But whatever, I used to think pivotgrabing out of nado was unrealistic.

 

[swordgard]

Sorry, i got asleep before uploading yesterday, im back on schedule though, say jiggs was uploaded yesterday night, starting next matchup right now (in class).

 

[Prawn]

I downloaded Jigglypuff and got the Ike matchup >_<

 

[r3d d09]

lol

it is funny. so i found a phone on campus and no one claimed it. so i got to keep it.

it has powerpoint, word. etc. I'm downloading all the match ups. guides. . . for the character that i play. it's amusing. and this was the first one i downloaded. *feel special *

It's only a temp till i get my lovely 64 gig itouch in the mail :D

 

[Funen1]

I downloaded Jigglypuff and got the Ike matchup >_<

Same here. I think you uploaded the wrong one, swordgard.

 

[swordgard]

My bad, it was uploaded, i had trouble finding stuff vs jiggs as the matchup really revolves around 2/3 things.


While doing the other matchups, i am gradually updating ice climbers ditto.

 

[r3d d09]

like there ever will be an IC ditto

 

[swordgard]

like there ever will be an IC ditto

Youd be surprised at the amount of people who counter ice climbers with ics, and also at how disturbing the ditto can be if your not willing to change chars.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I tell you swordgard my IC will beat yours >:O well maybe in 2 years

 

[Prawn]

In my opinion all IC mains should learn the basics of Snake V. IC because if you're opponent tries to CP you with ICs and you switch to Snake[MINDGAMESSSSSSSSSS](pending you know how to play at least decently) you can destroy them.

 

[swordgard]

No worries, wel get to snake in time, and thats my favorite matchup with rob : D

 

[IxxI]

Someone changed my custom title. Lol.

 

[Jupz]

What program do you use to view it?

 

[Funen1]

You can just use your web browser to view it. I know Firefox works, IE probably does too. And I have no clue about the other web browsers out there.

 

[swordgard]

What program do you use to view it?

Adobe acrobat reader or foxit reader.

 

[Teh Future]

So I dont think Im following the updates anymore after reading the Jigglypuff matchup. Playing lvl 9 computers is not sufficent practice imo. Just because a character is low tier does not mean they are instantly unviable against any character who isn't.

 

[r3d d09]

so says the nerd with a giant Pikachu stuffed animal haha jk

 

[Teh Future]

I think Im cute.

I think the idea Swordgard has is good, but if the only matchup expierence you have is a terrible wifi player then you shouldn't be writing matchup summaries on it.

 

[r3d d09]

no one else is putting forth the effort on this, and it something we can go back and edit later.

 

[swordgard]

I think Im cute.

I think the idea Swordgard has is good, but if the only matchup expierence you have is a terrible wifi player then you shouldn't be writing matchup summaries on it.

Er, just so you know, i go to offline tourneys too, watch alot on videos before writing the matchup, go and read and stuff and true to theorize my way through matchups, which so far has not failed me. Yes, my wifi experience do sometimes come in play. Im not saying im the end of it all knowledge for every matchup, but im really not basing this off versus 1 single opponent, and especially versus low ranked one, i try to keep things in perspective as to what options the opponent has.


The future, its not because you believe the matchup is utterly complicated that it is, matchup versus jigglypuff is pretty straightforward. Chester, which is 4th on our PR, went jigglypuff against me(he usually plays other char, but he didnt want to risk it versus ice climbers with his marth), and he plays overall more jiggs than marth, i 2-0ed his jiggs. I also played judged jiggs(bloohaha=judge right?), which is really good, and beat him 2-0 2 stocking him on his CP. To have an advantage versus ice climbers, you need A) To be able to kill at low %, B) Be able to have safe approach/very good camping abilities, C) A good grab game to separate, D) An ability to gimp nana fast.

Jiggs has D, but she also has a very very very bad survival rate and has hurtboxes which follow her hitbox, meaning B-Airs will beat her attacks, and pivot grabbing too. Her best option is to try to land a kill and then stall. If you really believe the matchup is in her favor, then explain to me how thats possible if pivot grab outranges her approaches.

That, and if i learn new stuff, then il update it. Either way, im not forcing you to read this in any way .

EDIT: Jigglypuff is one of those chars which i had to rely alot on my older experiences(4 months ago), so i tried to remember what i could.

 

[l!nk_aut]

i love you swordgard for the matchup book. this´ll help sooo much.

 

[Teh Future]

A) To be able to kill at low %, B) Be able to have safe approach/very good camping abilities, C) A good grab game to separate, D) An ability to gimp nana fast.

MK has good kill abilites, Diddy has good kill abilites? Both of these characters are viable vs ics. Jigglypuff has no trouble killing at all (and no, im not counting rollout) and she has the rest of that list. Unless your opponent isn't spacing properly, you should be on the ground. Trying to space bairs is not going to work because Jiggs can easily space around it.

The matchup obviously isn't in Jiggs favor, but saying its 70-30 is stupid when Jiggs does find against them and has a free win on brinstar (or norfair, but I dont think that is legal most places).

Your right that pivot grabbing is good here, and you most likely will land grabs from it, but if the Jiggs is spacing properly then you shouldn't be able to get it off from a neutral position.

 

[swordgard]

MK has good kill abilites, Diddy has good kill abilites? Both of these characters are viable vs ics. Jigglypuff has no trouble killing at all (and no, im not counting rollout) and she has the rest of that list. Unless your opponent isn't spacing properly, you should be on the ground. Trying to space bairs is not going to work because Jiggs can easily space around it.

The matchup obviously isn't in Jiggs favor, but saying its 70-30 is stupid when Jiggs does find against them and has a free win on brinstar (or norfair, but I dont think that is legal most places).

Your right that pivot grabbing is good here, and you most likely will land grabs from it, but if the Jiggs is spacing properly then you shouldn't be able to get it off from a neutral position.

Jigglypuff has huge problem killing TBH, its one of her main problem. She needs to get you in the air for that happen, and you can always pivot grab her approach. Without using chaingrabs, you already win 6-4 vs jigglypuff. With it, its even worst. 7-3. Also, she doesnt have a free win on brinstar compared to most other characters on brinstar, and ice climb. TBH, i dont feel like arguing about this single matchup, il be willing to argue for others though, but this one I dont want to spend tons of time on, sorry >.< .

 

[Bnzaaa]

Technically, a lot of chacters have supposed auto-wins on their counterpicks.

I feel like one of the most difficult thing about facing the Ice Climbers is that if the Ice Climber player wins the neutral, it's very difficult for the other player to win the set. The Ice Climbers do best on the neutrals, and it's impossible to ban all the neutrals.

Pivot-Grabbing will work when you can get it off, but I feel like Jigglypuff's high drift speed makes it easier to bait grabs. We do however outdamge Jigglypuff by a great amount without the grabs, so it's risky for Jigglypuff to throw out attacks.

Jigglypuff is considered very difficult to chaingrab (I think she has her own class) but if you get it down, you won't need many throws to finish it.

How viable is Drill-Rest do you think? Is the high risk, high reward worth it for Jigglypuff?

 

[Funen1]

How viable is Drill-Rest do you think? Is the high risk, high reward worth it for Jigglypuff?

With two possible characters to hit, it might be. Get rid of Popo, that's a stock. Get rid of Nana, say goodbye to CGs.

 

[swordgard]

With two possible characters to hit, it might be. Get rid of Popo, that's a stock. Get rid of Nana, say goodbye to CGs.

Bnzaa, jigglypuff is indeed the light char to cg in the cast, which is why i use the generic Fthrow to fthrow as stated on the sheet, in order to not have to worry about it.


Also, drill rest is super bad, getting shield grabbed is super risky, and you can still miss, and then its bye bye to your stock. Jigglypuff cant kill, her best kill moves being her aerials are always stale, she has no great finisher and dies at low %. Even if she hits one of the two ice climbers, its easy to wait until rest cooldown is almost over and then grab and then the opponent has to mash out, letting the time for popo/nana to recover since rest isnt nearly as strong as it used to be. That and the fact that even if you DO kill one, you take a fully charged smash, which is about 1/7th of your full stock.


Jigglypuff has 3 good things going for her in this matchup.
A) High drift speed.
B) Cannot be solo cged very long
C) Due to being light, the back throw at the end of the ledge finishes even faster, so the shield delay is longer leaving her more time to get out.

 

[Bnzaaa]

Bnzaa, jigglypuff is indeed the light char to cg in the cast, which is why i use the generic Fthrow to fthrow as stated on the sheet, in order to not have to worry about it.


Also, drill rest is super bad, getting shield grabbed is super risky, and you can still miss, and then its bye bye to your stock. Jigglypuff cant kill, her best kill moves being her aerials are always stale, she has no great finisher and dies at low %. Even if she hits one of the two ice climbers, its easy to wait until rest cooldown is almost over and then grab and then the opponent has to mash out, letting the time for popo/nana to recover since rest isnt nearly as strong as it used to be. That and the fact that even if you DO kill one, you take a fully charged smash, which is about 1/7th of your full stock.


Jigglypuff has 3 good things going for her in this matchup.
A) High drift speed.
B) Cannot be solo cged very long
C) Due to being light, the back throw at the end of the ledge finishes even faster, so the shield delay is longer leaving her more time to get out.

Yeah, Jigglypuff isn't as difficult to F-Throw chain some other characters.


Jigglypuff's best spacing tool would be F-Air, and it also happens to be one of Jiggypuff's best kill moves as well. Well, maybe not best, because like you said, it gets stale very quickly most of the time. In order for Jigglypuff keep F-Air unstaled, Jigglypuff would have to rely on B-Air or N-Air which have much less range.

I see how Rest doesn't work.

 

[swordgard]

Yeah, Jigglypuff isn't as difficult to F-Throw chain some other characters.


Jigglypuff's best spacing tool would be F-Air, and it also happens to be one of Jiggypuff's best kill moves as well. Well, maybe not best, because like you said, it gets stale very quickly most of the time. In order for Jigglypuff keep F-Air unstaled, Jigglypuff would have to rely on B-Air or N-Air which have much less range.

I see how Rest doesn't work.

That and the fact that fair is safe-ish. PS to grab or pivot grab work on it >.<

 

[Teh Future]

there is no reason for Jiggs to use fair at low percents unless she is gimping you but w/e regardless of what the matchup is there your right there are more important ones to cover.

Also I rested nana today and got killed by an fsmash when I was at like 58% I think lol. Not worth it when she can just gimp them off stage.

 

[swordgard]

there is no reason for Jiggs to use fair at low percents unless she is gimping you but w/e regardless of what the matchup is there your right there are more important ones to cover.

Also I rested nana today and got killed by an fsmash when I was at like 58% I think lol. Not worth it when she can just gimp them off stage.

And what should she use? B-Air? Pound? They can all be pivot grabbed on reaction. They can all be outranged by f-smash or b-air. Not getting stuck offstage is kinda easy versus jiggs if you play smart, its the same thing as versus most characters. Being able to gimp is something, but it doesnt give her that much power. Her best asset really is stalling once shes winning and killed 1 climber.



EDIT: No update tonight, huge bio exam coming up T.T (over 250 slides of powerpoint : ( )

 

[Dominic]

Hey swordgard, when comes the time for the snake matchup. Don't forget to say its very close. Although I think it might favor the ice climbers. And if people want to know why, tell them to learn how to chaingrab ?

I think I almost can't even Fsmash you anymore

 

[swordgard]

Hey swordgard, when comes the time for the snake matchup. Don't forget to say its very close. Although I think it might favor the ice climbers. And if people want to know why, tell them to learn how to chaingrab ?

I think I almost can't even Fsmash you anymore

You dont need to spoil the ending lol.



Either way, i stopped doing the matchup book as i have a tourney next week and im perfecting my cgs and everything else.

 

[Zero Hour]

will you continue it after =[