Match Ups

[vato_break]

try fludding him when he uses the snake
if you're lucky he might not be able to reach the edge.

 

[mario brawler]

try fludding him when he uses the snake
if you're lucky he might not be able to reach the edge.

hmm the might just work and besides I don't need a fully charged fludd to gimp his pk recovery do I? thnx for the tip!

 

[vato_break]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyrgwq8duqg
watch at like 45 seconds
and yes i am spamming my video lulz

 

[Oblique]

I faced a Lucas before i tried to have a close to fully charged F.L.U.D at all times and gimp him (don't need this). If F.L.U.D is not handy use fire balls aim correctly u should catch them off guard (when he's of the stage). Usually, he dies here or slips up his recovery move and kills him self. I don't know what u should do after this if he make it back the Lucas i faced never did (sad).

 

[vato_break]

You can't really spam fireballs too much he has his PKmagnet
Caping him should be no problem he moves slow in the air
he's not too hard to gimp either
>_>

 

[Ray/Boshi]

For Ness/Lucas I focus mainly on 2 things, fludd & get them off the stage using they upB at all cost. The cape is usually a great assist to doing this. Whenever they use they're upB, I use the fludd, their ball be flying all kinds of crazy ways. Even if it pushes them just barely, usually messes them up royaly, ball may even hit them at a awkward angle for the KO.

Sometime I use fludd to push them when they close to the edge, just to get them off the stage. In a nutshell, They stand no chance against Mario's fludd & cape.

Because of this. Movewise, Lucas/ness don't really have much going for them honestly in my opinion. They could play a flawless set. Get knocked off one time & they're upB will messed up. Easy KO.

 

[BoTastic!]

just look at boss's thread to see what we already discussed

 

[mario brawler]

well I ussually give him a fireball and he fails to magnet it ,he then ussually holds it thinking im'ma do another fireball and that's when I can land a good hit in but he's starting to use that little zap at the end of the magnet to get me, he ussually does a fair or nair to prevent me from caping him, I mean this Lucas devotes his life to playing as him he knows exactly where and when to do his pk thunder recovery the even wierder thing is he still neils it even when we're online :0, fludding his second jump and then fludding his pk recovery has worked very well tho but im still having to take to much damage just trying to get him of the stage I do get really close to beating him ussually he's on his last life with like 58% when I die,and I do beat him everyonce and a while

 

[mario brawler]

just look at boss's thread to see what we already discussed

can you provide a link plz?

 

[BoTastic!]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174907

 

[vato_break]

Perfect example of why we need stickies >_>

 

[BoTastic!]

perfect Example Of Why We Need Stickies >_>

Yeah I Pm'd 3 Mods To Sticky Our Threads!! Nothin.

 

[Barge]

Olimars red pikmin can absorb and go through your fireballs, Olimar can beat Mario in the air with solid dairs and bairs and upairs, mario can be easily grabbed with olimars extreme grab range.

 

[mario brawler]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174907

thnx a ton! :D

 

[BoTastic!]

umm since when did fox, yoshi, sheik, and falco become hard match ups for Mario? they are even. But mario has the advantage over yoshi.

and since when did Ike and Ganon become a overkill? o_0 That will be captain falcon. Mario has a slight advantage with Ike and is about even with Ganon.

 

[vato_break]

Well i never faced a yoshi before and it seems yoshi has alot of range so i assumed he had an advantage but, i will make the changes.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Metaknight

Pros
+Shield grabs and grabbing in general
+meta knight has slow aerial movement
+D-Smash out prioritizes many moves
+Metaknight has about the same range as mario on the ground
+F-Tilt and cape cause problems for Metaknight
+F-tilt -> Dash attack can work at low percents
+Fireballs can hinder Metaknight's recovery because once he gets past about 60% they push him back enough to waste the horizontal movement of jumps.
+FLUDD can take advantage of Metaknight's recoveries leaving him vulnerable
+Meta knight doesn't jump very high so caping Meta's jumps is fine
+D-air out-prioritizes Meta's tornado and works great when in range.

Cons
-Metaknight can go from one side of the stage to the other
-U-smash isn't as useful here only can attack metaknight offgaurd
-N-Air and D-air are crazy
-Aerial Range causes problems more than priority
-Metaknight has many different recoveries have to get used to them all
-Metaknight's Gliding
-Metaknight has fast ground movement
-Metaknight has multiple jumps
-F-smash is more dificult because of Meta's ground speed
-Tilts have higher priority than many of mario's moves
-Metaknight's Priority stops most aerial combos

 

[Dynomite]

i think pit should be in the VERY HARD range.. i have an easyer time with D3 than pit tbh.

 

[mario brawler]

pit can be annoying at times but he should'nt be that hard(then again im having problems with a lucas so I should wonder) whats hard about him?
if he spams arrows just cape tham ussually the second arrow he gets in the face he'll fight you directly
his smashes can be quick but can be blocked and punished , you can just DI out the side b just try not to stay in the air (for some reason every pit I fight automaticly does their nair after a throw and my combo is messed up D: ) , oh and fireball approach him his shield takes a while to come out,and most important hit him in his up-b ,air,fair,fireball anything if he recovers high wait for him down below he's not really floaty so you should be able to single out his landing spot
I've never really fought a really hard pit soo...yea

 

[BoTastic!]

some more things to be changed..

Lol i think u were drinking wen u typed that Mario has a slight advantage over snake.. >_> This will be very hard match up for mario.

Mario and Jiggz are even. Because of Mario's weight and recovery options, Jiggz can WoP and gimp Mario fairly easy.

Wario has an advantage over Mario. Its not huge tho.

Mario and Link are even. Link's defensive skills>your approach

Mario and Pikachu are about even. His hitboxes are crazy. and has more range than you.

Lucas has the advantage over Mario. Fast Fsmash.. Nair out prioritizes most of ur moves and on top of that.. he's strong.

then again im having problems with a lucas so I should wonder

Every Mario should have problems with Lucas

 

[vato_break]

LOL i think i was drinking

 

[mario brawler]

Every Mario should have problems with Lucas

thank god I thought I was getting worse or something XD

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness=Mario.

5-5.

Ness has a better aerial game overall, better approach, and a way to null Mario's approach. (psi magnet)
PK jump is useful on Mario, and spiking Mario is easy due to his bad recovery. Mario's recovery is PK flashable.

On the ground, they're equal, Ness winning out with his better approach and multiple PK Fire techs. Ness tilts outrange and outprioritize Mario's (Mario has bad priority) his smashes are average at best.

Mario can edge guard Ness with his bair and fludd, but thats pretty much it.
Ness has an insane double jump+air movement. His recovery trumps Mario's every time, and the advantage seems to be on Ness IMO. But you can't forget Mario's positives.
Martio will need to try harder to have an advantage on Ness (cookie for reference)

 

[BoTastic!]

*cracks fingers*

Ness has a better aerial game overall, better approach, and a way to null Mario's approach. (psi magnet)

Any Smart Mario player knows not to overuse Fireballs on an oponent that nullifies his Fireball approach. Besides. Fireballs aren't his only approach. >_>

PK jump is useful on Mario, and spiking Mario is easy due to his bad recovery. Mario's recovery is PK flashable.

Wrong... Im tired of everyone saying that Mario's recovery is bad... The game physics buffed his recovery. Its average.

On the ground, they're equal, Ness winning out with his better approach and multiple PK Fire techs. Ness tilts outrange and outprioritize Mario's (Mario has bad priority) his smashes are average at best.

Cape>PK fire. Bad priority? please. Dair stops MK's whorenado and even Bair Outprioritizes moves along with enough range to be a good approach for RAR. Mario's priority is fine. Falcon's priority is bad.

Also Ness is alot easier to gimp then lucas since Lucas actually has a tether and UpB travels further. While Ness only travels half the distance, can even be caped, and intrrupting the ball will automaticaly gimp Ness.

Ness doesn't have the advantage at all. I agree that its even but not advantage.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Mario's Up-Special has much more range than in Melee.
Edge grabbing is much easier in brawl.

 

[Matador]

Ness=Mario.

5-5.

Ness has a better aerial game overall, better approach, and a way to null Mario's approach. (psi magnet)
PK jump is useful on Mario, and spiking Mario is easy due to his bad recovery. Mario's recovery is PK flashable.

On the ground, they're equal, Ness winning out with his better approach and multiple PK Fire techs. Ness tilts outrange and outprioritize Mario's (Mario has bad priority) his smashes are average at best.

Mario can edge guard Ness with his bair and fludd, but thats pretty much it.
Ness has an insane double jump+air movement. His recovery trumps Mario's every time, and the advantage seems to be on Ness IMO. But you can't forget Mario's positives.
Martio will need to try harder to have an advantage on Ness (cookie for reference)

Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

 

[mario brawler]

Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

I seriously couldnt have said it better my self

 

[PKNintendo]

Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

7-3. Are you serious? I have more trouble facing a game and watch than Mario. Thats 7-3. Not, not this! Ness fair the best? LOL. Ness nair can be short-hopped and used twice with an excellent spacing tool. Everything you said about Mario can be applied to Ness. His Bair good for kill power, dair's a kick-*** spike.

Ness smashes are come out quite quick (unlike his forward smash) his yo-yo's come out quick, and do alot of damage for whats they're worth. They're a great defensive tool, and work well on Mario. Mario aerial and ground approachs seem to get nullified, by his aerials.
Ness' uptilt does chain, uair chains better than Mario's, and down tilt can rack up the damage.
Jab>Downsmash doesn't automatically work on Ness.

Fludd can't **** (literally, it's just Water) But it can screw with Ness' recovery. But Ness rarely needs to use his it. His double jump is immense. Ness can actually use PK flash on Mario. (Dude, he can't rarely use it!) When Mario lands after his Up, or grabs the ledge, you can use PK flash due to his predictable distance. Ness also can chase after Mario with his spike as well. PKT can send Mario far. (if you hit him on the opposite direction e.c.t)

Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.
My name is not Ness.

You should play a good Ness. You know squat about Ness, and fair being the only thing for Ness is kinda sad.

 

[mario brawler]

game and watch is'nt exactly an easy match up for mario =_= , and uair chains better than marios!? you gotta be kidding btw ness second jump wont always make it back to the edge trust me and when some one edge hogs the ledge you have to pk recover and dont try to attack the edgehogger because that'll only make harder for you to recover,and many mario's know howw to gimp ness with their cape too,very easy when we know your just gonna pk recover after we edge hog somple as drop-> cape ness or pk thunder=dead ,works every time

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, I've got a question for you guys. You make it sound like Ness is the easiest thing ever, yet according to your match-up chart, you have Ness listed as slight advantage and Lucas listed as a slight disadvantage for you all. Both of them can be gimped similarly, so why does Lucas give you guys more trouble than Ness? There's no way Lucas can be > Mario, according to your match-up thread, and Ness be < or even << Mario.

game and watch is'nt exactly an easy match up for mario =_= , and uair chains better than marios!? you gotta be kidding btw ness second jump wont always make it back to the edge trust me and when some one edge hogs the ledge you have to pk recover and dont try to attack the edgehogger because that'll only make harder for you to recover,and many mario's know howw to gimp ness with their cape too,very easy when we know your just gonna pk recover after we edge hog somple as drop-> cape ness or pk thunder=dead ,works every time

Wait, are you saying that someone is gonna use their double jump and then try to PK Thunder when you're RIGHT NEXT TO THE EDGE? That's not how you recover with Ness - that's an invitation for anyone to gimp him. Someone can edgehog the ledge, but considering anyone can see an edgehog coming from a mile away, all you have to do is PK Thunder away from the stage to prevent an easy gimp. It leaves you a little vulnerable, but I'll take that over someone gimping my PK Thunder.

You're saying "drop -> cape" as if Ness only recovers from below the stage when Mario is two steps away. Lol. Please stop assuming every Ness recovers like the CPU does and please quit assuming that you can jump in his PK Thunder every single time. This is how I've killed many players with PK Thunder 2; they assume you can always just jump in for a quick and easy gimp as if this were Melee Ness, and next thing they know, they shoot off with 26% more damage, usually dead if they have 30-50% on them already. Also, once Ness blasts off, in the early parts of PKT2, he has invincibility frames, so don't even try to cape there.

 

[BoTastic!]

Matador 7:3 is too big. its about even.

 

[BoTastic!]

Yeah, I've got a question for you guys. You make it sound like Ness is the easiest thing ever, yet according to your match-up chart, you have Ness listed as slight advantage and Lucas listed as a slight disadvantage for you all. Both of them can be gimped similarly, so why does Lucas give you guys more trouble than Ness? There's no way Lucas can be > Mario, according to your match-up thread, and Ness be < or even << Mario.

there is a reason for this simply because Lucas is just better than Ness is every way.

-He has a tether, he can't be gimped as easy as ness.
-Nair outprioritizes a lot of mario's attacks and be sh'd.
-Lucas's Fsmash is faster and stronger than ness's
-Ness only travels half the distance of lucas's UpB
-Lucas's Pk Fire>ness's


Really.. if it wasn't for that stupid release grab, Lucas will actually be a good character.

 

[Brinzy]

Tether, yes.

Lucas's nair has awful priority. If that outprioritizes Mario's attacks, then 90% of aerials outprioritize Mario, and that's not the case. In general, Lucas's air game only has a few more disjointed hitboxes than Ness's do, and several boards, including the Lucas board, agree that Ness's aerials are generally better. Nair is a decent comboing aerial, but no, it has stupidly low priority.

Fsmash is also shorter, and Ness's PK Fire leads into a bat. Also, in terms of knockback, they're virtually even, but sweetspotting Ness's bat (the tip) = 25% hit. Try it yourself. Lucas has no sweetspot.

Ness's PKT2 only goes half the distance? No. Ness goes half of FD's length. Lucas goes 2/3rds. The only time where the travel distance for Ness is hampered is when he runs into an opponent or certain projectiles, in which case, the rest of his distance is cut in half, so Ness still doesn't lose much distance. He'll only lose that much PKT2 in the beginning, when he has invincibility frames to stop all attacks and he connects with an opponent... which means you've halved his whole distance for 26% more or a stock loss.

Lucas's PK Fire is a matter of preference, but I will say that Ness's PK Fire is the only one that leads into his deadly throws, a good 25% crack from a bat, any aerial of your choice, another PK Fire, a tilt, PKT2, and... well, it pretty much leads into anything if you don't DI it in time.


I think you guys are severely underrating Ness.

 

[mario brawler]

little [/I]vulnerable, but I'll take that over someone gimping my PK Thunder.

You're saying "drop -> cape" as if Ness only recovers from below the stage when Mario is two steps away. Lol. Please stop assuming every Ness recovers like the CPU does and please quit assuming that you can jump in his PK Thunder every single time. This is how I've killed many players with PK Thunder 2; they assume you can always just jump in for a quick and easy gimp as if this were Melee Ness, and next thing they know, they shoot off with 26% more damage, usually dead if they have 30-50% on them already. Also, once Ness blasts off, in the early parts of PKT2, he has invincibility frames, so don't even try to cape there.

recovering high is'nt to bright either considering ness is'nt very floaty in freefall, pk recovering away from the edge could work but you better make sure you lan on the stage ness's recovery is'nt that long, how would you fair with a mario fludding your second jump caping your left over momentum and fludding your pk recovery...that works for me and yes the ness trys to nair/fair me

 

[Brinzy]

Note when I say "away from the stage" that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be in freefall. PK Thunder towards the stage, where you stand on it, and he'll slide across. No freefall. Any freefall that a good Ness player has will be very minimal because Ness is aiming to get on the ground, not just to shoot up high in the sky for anyone to gimp him.

Ness's recovery isn't short, either. What's with everyone assuming he goes nowhere? Because of Lucas's PK Thunder? You can be in a bubble at the bottom of Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island and even Lylat Cruise and still make it back.

The way you people talk about how you'd gimp Ness to me sounds just like the way any non-Ness player thinks of Ness. You make it sound like all Ness players are just gonna let you get the gimp on him with such ease, and that Ness will do the same thing each and every single time for a stock loss each and every single time.

 

[BoTastic!]

hmm my mistake then about the distance thing. But from my expererience Lucas travels a lot further.

Ness's recovery isn't short, either. What's with everyone assuming he goes nowhere? Because of Lucas's PK Thunder? You can be in a bubble at the bottom of Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island and even Lylat Cruise and still make it back.

No one said that... I just said Lucas's is better.

DIing out of Ness's PK fire is very easy if your not DK, Ike, Rob, or any other heavy character.

Lucas's is good for SH PK fires and better at camping since they actually travel straight foward unlike Ness's. They also knock the oponent back, for some distance.

And the only way Mario an actually gimp ness is if he knocks him far enough to the fact that it forces him to use UpB which can be fludded.

Im going with even on Ness. I think Matador was a bit too harh on the match up.

 

[Brinzy]

Lucas is better for distance, yes, I'll give you that.

DIing Ness's PK Fire is easy to do, yes, but you have to remember that Ness is supposed to follow up as soon as he can move, which will always be before the move finishes, thus giving you less time to DI. Ness striking at the opponent's lower body with PK Fire sets up for an easier DI - striking from above makes it much harder to DI out of because the base of the move is slightly larger than the rest of the pillar.

Lucas can camp better overall, but... that's basically what he is. A camper. Lucas has a good camping game because he's not a good approacher. Ness is a better approacher than a camper.

And yes, I'm glad someone else realizes that Ness doesn't automatically lose a stock whenever he goes off the stage. Even or 6:4 Mario is about as far as I'll go.

 

[BoTastic!]

Lucas is better for distance, yes, I'll give you that.

DIing Ness's PK Fire is easy to do, yes, but you have to remember that Ness is supposed to follow up as soon as he can move, which will always be before the move finishes, thus giving you less time to DI. Ness striking at the opponent's lower body with PK Fire sets up for an easier DI - striking from above makes it much harder to DI out of because the base of the move is slightly larger than the rest of the pillar.

Lucas can camp better overall, but... that's basically what he is. A camper. Lucas has a good camping game because he's not a good approacher. Ness is a better approacher than a camper.

And yes, I'm glad someone else realizes that Ness doesn't automatically lose a stock whenever he goes off the stage. Even or 6:4 Mario is about as far as I'll go.

Im cool with 6:4 i guess. 7:3 is just too big.

 

[Matador]

7-3. Are you serious? I have more trouble facing a game and watch than Mario. Thats 7-3. Not, not this! Ness fair the best? LOL. Ness nair can be short-hopped and used twice with an excellent spacing tool. Everything you said about Mario can be applied to Ness. His Bair good for kill power, dair's a kick-*** spike.

I'm not saying Mario's harder for Ness than G&W or even as hard. I'm saying that this is one of the matchups Ness should be on the lookout for and adapt according to the matchup. We can cape your sideB and upB and make it do more damage to you, our aerials are quicker aside from your Fair, and we can gimp you well. There's too much going for Mario for this to be even, or even 6:4 in my book. I think it's a step further than that, since Mario's one of the only characters that can do these things. Mario's more difficult to edgeguard as well because he can lob out fireballs and capestall when needed. His upB can stagespike well too.

Ness smashes are come out quite quick (unlike his forward smash) his yo-yo's come out quick, and do alot of damage for whats they're worth. They're a great defensive tool, and work well on Mario. Mario aerial and ground approachs seem to get nullified, by his aerials.
Ness' uptilt does chain, uair chains better than Mario's, and down tilt can rack up the damage.
Jab>Downsmash doesn't automatically work on Ness.

You misunderstand. When I say "slow smashes", I mean slower than Mario's. Mario can Nair out of Utilt chains from anyone besides Lucario (not sure about that one). Mario's Uairs link into each other at lower % and is actually a true combo. Even afterwards, they can be followed up with more Uairs because they autocancel. Ness' Dtilt is good, however. Much better than ours. Jab -> Dsmash works better on floaty characters, Ness being one of them. The only time when it doesn't work on a given character too well is if their Dsmash is as fast as yours, and Ness' isn't. It may not be automatic, but it's not easy to deal with.

Fludd can't **** (literally, it's just Water) But it can screw with Ness' recovery. But Ness rarely needs to use his it. His double jump is immense. Ness can actually use PK flash on Mario. (Dude, he can't rarely use it!) When Mario lands after his Up, or grabs the ledge, you can use PK flash due to his predictable distance. Ness also can chase after Mario with his spike as well. PKT can send Mario far. (if you hit him on the opposite direction e.c.t).

You forget the truckload of edgeguarding options that Mario has to help him. Capeglide helps us follow after you without even using our second jump. From there we could Nair, cape your second jump, Uair, or Fair if you caught you with the cape. We could also Fludd you there and Null your DJ, even though the fludd would be empty from that, your DJ would've been used, forcing an upB.

For PK flash, we could either capestall away from the edge until the attack is finished, shoot fireballs to disrupt the charge, or grab the edge before it'd really do anything because of how fast Mario's upB is. I'm sure it'd work sometimes, but there's ways around it. You already know that I think Ness' spike is good and closely resembles Mario's except ours is a meteor. Chasing out after mario when your recovery is so gimpable is something I wouldn't recommend tho. PKT is slow, can be interrupted by fireballs, aerials, or whatever other attack, not to mention the cape. Using it alone probably isn't the best edgeguarding tool.

Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.
My name is not Ness.

You came representing Ness. In a sense, I'm talking to Ness through you

You should play a good Ness. You know squat about Ness, and fair being the only thing for Ness is kinda sad.

Then explain to me what you think Ness has over Mario. Think hard this time, because last time you didn't take alot of things into account.

Edit @ Successor Of Raphael: I'm prolly the only one thinking 7:3, everyone else has Bo's idea on it. My response to PKNintendo's first quote explains why I believe this.

I'm sure you guys can get tricky with your recovery too and evade edgeguard. I'm not saying everytime I knocked Simna (Or whoever your pro for Brawl is) off stage, he doesn't recover....or maybe I did...

Either way, Mario has so many options on edgeguarding/gimping Ness even while he has his DJ that it becomes as bad for him as Olimar. Sure Olimar isn't dead the instant he's off, but there's a good chance that he won't make it back. Same for Ness. We could cape any part of your recovery and screw you over.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm not saying Mario's harder for Ness than G&W or even as hard. I'm saying that this is one of the matchups Ness should be on the lookout for and adapt according to the matchup. We can cape your sideB and upB and make it do more damage to you, our aerials are quicker aside from your Fair, and we can gimp you well. There's too much going for Mario for this to be even, or even 6:4 in my book. I think it's a step further than that, since Mario's one of the only characters that can do these things. Mario's more difficult to edgeguard as well because he can lob out fireballs and capestall when needed. His upB can stagespike well too.

You misunderstand. When I say "slow smashes", I mean slower than Mario's. Mario can Nair out of Utilt chains from anyone besides Lucario (not sure about that one). Mario's Uairs link into each other at lower % and is actually a true combo. Even afterwards, they can be followed up with more Uairs because they autocancel. Ness' Dtilt is good, however. Much better than ours. Jab -> Dsmash works better on floaty characters, Ness being one of them. The only time when it doesn't work on a given character too well is if their Dsmash is as fast as yours, and Ness' isn't. It may not be automatic, but it's not easy to deal with.

You forget the truckload of edgeguarding options that Mario has to help him. Capeglide helps us follow after you without even using our second jump. From there we could Nair, cape your second jump, Uair, or Fair if you caught you with the cape. We could also Fludd you there and Null your DJ, even though the fludd would be empty from that, your DJ would've been used, forcing an upB.

For PK flash, we could either capestall away from the edge until the attack is finished, shoot fireballs to disrupt the charge, or grab the edge before it'd really do anything because of how fast Mario's upB is. I'm sure it'd work sometimes, but there's ways around it. You already know that I think Ness' spike is good and closely resembles Mario's except ours is a meteor. Chasing out after mario when your recovery is so gimpable is something I wouldn't recommend tho. PKT is slow, can be interrupted by fireballs, aerials, or whatever other attack, not to mention the cape. Using it alone probably isn't the best edgeguarding tool.

You came representing Ness. In a sense, I'm talking to Ness through you

Then explain to me what you think Ness has over Mario. Think hard this time, because last time you didn't take alot of things into account.

Edit @ Successor Of Raphael: I'm prolly the only one thinking 7:3, everyone else has Bo's idea on it. My response to PKNintendo's first quote explains why I believe this.

I'm sure you guys can get tricky with your recovery too and evade edgeguard. I'm not saying everytime I knocked Simna (Or whoever your pro for Brawl is) off stage, he doesn't recover....or maybe I did...

Either way, Mario has so many options on edgeguarding/gimping Ness even while he has his DJ that it becomes as bad for him as Olimar. Sure Olimar isn't dead the instant he's off, but there's a good chance that he won't make it back. Same for Ness. We could cape any part of your recovery and screw you over.

Online matches don't decide the matchup. Im probably to only one who thinks this, but I find that your kinda biased when it comes to Mario and his matchups. Sorry, but you really need to play as Ness more. I've played vs plenty of Mario's, and they've never even given me trouble at all. I say 5-5 for Ness, or 6-4 for Ness. Call me crazy, but I don't think you've played against many Ness' offline. If you did beat scrub Ness', and changed your opinion on him from that, you should rethink it.