Match-Up Week #25 : Bowser

[Blad01]

Week #25 : Bowser​

The legendary Koopa King. Discuss ! ​

 

[MrEh]

55-45 or 60-40.

You got the chaingrab, and that wrecks. However, if Bowser decides to camp on platforms, then it becomes impossible to get the chaingrab spike on him.

Bowser's ground game outprioritizes and outranges Falco's, but you can camp Bowser pretty hard.

Oh, and Bowser is hard to kill. The weight difference between the character's makes it extremely easy for Bowser to get the kill if you get careless. Bowser can chaingrab Falco and hit him out of a grab release. Watch out.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

65/35

a bowser cant really beat falcos range game, neither his chaingrab. if he decides to camp on platforms just attack him from below.
also, bowser cant gimp falco like characters with a good recovery, which (somehow) makes up for his bad recovery.
you can expect low % kills if you get reckless close up, but i dont think any falco in the right mind would go in close against bowser while being on kill%, without a defensive plan.

I havent played that much good bowsers, but from what ive played it seems that falco has a good advantage here

 

[SpeedAcE]

I agree with 65/35. Initially I would've concurred with 60/40, but after a little bit more experience it becomes apparent what Falco can do to almost completely shutdown Bowser in some cases.

First you can virtually camp the hell out of Bowser and force his approach, which is of course a bad thing when considering the chain grab. Bowser can remedy this a little by picking a stage like Battlefield to lessen the distance between the two of them. It also has platforms to prevent the grab, but Falco can simply shoot you atop them and force you to move/approach again. This also isn't a problem for Falco with his stage zoning abilities. While it takes incredible effort to get inside of Falco's stage control, he can simply zip away with phantasm and start the process over again. BF may also be a double edged sword for Bowser due to the length of the stage in conjunction with the CG spike but I believe he can recover from that, I may be wrong.

Lasers also cover Bowser's confusing and awkward aerial movements when koopahopping (correct name?). If he goes above the lasers, for example on FD, then you can either full hop and shoot him or zip to the other side of the stage and camp. On smashville/yoshi's you can use the platforms to shoot him when he goes high. You can also spam Falco's ridiculous spotdodge to avoid being grabbed by Bowser from the air. Bowser's OoS options don't even come into play unless you stupidly ram his shield, which you won't be doing at all. You can also gimp Bowser's recovery with lasers. Fancy that.

If you play correctly you can keep Bowser at a distance indefinitely until you opt to punish one of his mistakes with a grab or bair.

 

[MrEh]

if he decides to camp on platforms just attack him from below.

Go ahead and attack. Once Bowser get's over 35%, he can stop camping and start approaching you.

also, bowser cant gimp falco like characters with a good recovery,

You have clearly never seen Fire before.

I havent played that much good bowsers, but from what ive played it seems that falco has a good advantage here

That's the problem.

but Falco can simply shoot you atop them and force you to move/approach again

Lasers only force an approach after Bowser is out of chaingrab percents. Hell, if you start the match by shooting lasers, I'll just stand there and take the hit.

You can also spam Falco's ridiculous spotdodge to avoid being grabbed by Bowser from the air.

No you can't. Bowser's aerial Klaw has no landing lag whatsoever. Even the best spotdodges are ***** by this, since he can do anything once he lands.


Honestly, have you guys seen how hard Bowser can **** Falco from a grab? 60% from one grab is serious business. Chaingrab to the ledge, start blowing fire.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Go ahead and attack. Once Bowser get's over 35%, he can stop camping and start approaching you.



You have clearly never seen Fire before.



That's the problem.



Lasers only force an approach after Bowser is out of chaingrab percents. Hell, if you start the match by shooting lasers, I'll just stand there and take the hit.



No you can't. Bowser's aerial Klaw has no landing lag whatsoever. Even the best spotdodges are ***** by this, since he can do anything once he lands.


Honestly, have you guys seen how hard Bowser can **** Falco from a grab? 60% from one grab is serious business. Chaingrab to the ledge, start blowing fire.

I now certainly understand your point of thinking, seems that you make a good bowser.

I'll retreat from this discussion, you've certainly outsmarted me =)

 

[MrEh]

Matchup discussions aren't a battle of wits, it's just sharing information.

Falco has the tools to royally screw up Bowser, but only if Bowser get's grabbed. Both characters get destroyed from a grab, although Falco has an easier time getting the grab. Bowser however, can grab Falco at any percent and still chaingrab him.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Matchup discussions aren't a battle of wits, it's just sharing information.

Falco has the tools to royally screw up Bowser, but only if Bowser get's grabbed. Both characters get destroyed from a grab, although Falco has an easier time getting the grab. Bowser however, can grab Falco at any percent and still chaingrab him.

The problem is that sharing information with limited knowledge is sometimes misleading as further research can reveal flaws =)

May I ask for a video or anything explaining the chaingrab?

 

[sniperworm]

Lasers only force an approach after Bowser is out of chaingrab percents. Hell, if you start the match by shooting lasers, I'll just stand there and take the hit.

This is why I can't ever use Falco against you. If I ever play you Falco vs Bowser, the fight will consist of a single laser shot at the beginning of the fight, about 7.5 minutes of us staring at each other, then 28 or so seconds of fighting at the end, lol.

The problem is that sharing information with limited knowledge is sometimes misleading as further research can reveal flaws =)

May I ask for a video or anything explaining the chaingrab?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

Bowser has a grab-release chaingrab on a huge portion of the cast.

Apparently he can regrab Falco regardless of whether you jump or ground break, which means you'll take a lot of damage if Bowser grabs you.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

Bowser has a grab-release chaingrab (or at least has grab release follow ups) on a huge portion of the cast.

But, seeing as Falco has an amazing roll and spotdodge, is it legit to think a Falco aware of the danger in getting grabbed will get grabbed on percentages which aren't already kill percentages anyway? Combine Falco's quick escape (IAP) with his quick jab (frame 2) and Bowsers average speed (in both attacks and movement) won't match Falco's speed. ( You're too slow!)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only here to learn

 

[SpeedAcE]

You have clearly never seen Fire before.
Lasers only force an approach after Bowser is out of chaingrab percents.
No you can't. Bowser's aerial Klaw has no landing lag whatsoever. Even the best spotdodges are ***** by this, since he can do anything once he lands.

-Not to downplay Fire, but since we're talking about Falco's recovery it's safe to assume the recovery in question is phantasm since it's the prominent method of getting back to the stage with Falco. Firebird is screwed by anyone and a decent Falco will not be using it outside the most situational scenarios. Fire stops phantasm but it does not gimp it, and Falco many has options in that situation.- Lasers force an approach period. -If Bowser throws the claw at you, or is about to since it's horribly telegraphed, and you spot dodge it will miss. Also if Bowser is hovering in front of you going for the grab you can just reverse SHDL.

It's not so much Bowser's lack of options in this matchup as it is Falco's answer to every counter option Bowser has.

 

[sniperworm]

But, seeing as Falco has an amazing roll and spotdodge, is it legit to think a Falco aware of the danger in getting grabbed will get grabbed on percentages which aren't already kill percentages anyway? Combine Falco's quick escape (IAP) with his quick jab (frame 2) and Bowsers average speed (in both attacks and movement) won't match Falco's speed. ( You're too slow!)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only here to learn

I have no idea, I don't use Bowser, lol. I just posted info about the grab release chaingrab since you asked for it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've never faced any really good bowsers, but I have played enough that are good to give me the idea of what bowser has on hand.

In short, Falco has the ability to combo bowser, CG, laser and edgeguard bowser well.

Bowser has edgeguarding abilities, range, power and weight. Plus, I think he has a guranteed grab release combo on falco, but I'm not sure, so I won't cover any of that.

For anyone things that bowsers edgeguarding against falco is fail, it's not. Bowser just has to fire breath and all of falco's options are pretty much cancelled out. Plus, it gets a good size of damage if you don't DI/SDI out.

Now, bowser has a good out of shield option, UpB. Comes out really quick frame 6 without shield drop. That can be a great defence for bowser. Then bowser has great range on tilts and jab even if start up is a bit slower than ours (but only by like 3-4 frames). Not sure on priority.

So bowser's close ground game > falco's close ground game. But we have tools to bring it back into our favor, and it's again our specials.

Summary:

Space with Falco correctly and there won't be much bowser can do against us and we can keep him juggled. Don't rush in or you will meet that area around bowser that is hard to take care of.

I guess I could give a match-up number of 60-40; falco's favor.

Edit: I forgot aerials.

Falco's aerials are great against bowser when he is airborn or on the ground. The only really good one bowser has is Fair, and the others are situational because of lag or where it covers. Watch out for the bowser bomb.

And I think you want to grab the higher port number to give greatest deflection of bowsercide attempts. Although, I am not sure if port control even really matters in determining which was bowser will -cide if you move left or right more seeing as both players can control it.

 

[Bowser King]

But, seeing as Falco has an amazing roll and spotdodge, is it legit to think a Falco aware of the danger in getting grabbed will get grabbed on percentages which aren't already kill percentages anyway? Combine Falco's quick escape (IAP) with his quick jab (frame 2) and Bowsers average speed (in both attacks and movement) won't match Falco's speed. ( You're too slow!)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only here to learn

True that bowser wont match falco's speed but he's still fairly close.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222754&highlight=slow+speed

Look at the "bowsers not slow section"

EDIT: Actually he's faster

-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

-Not to downplay Fire, but since we're talking about Falco's recovery it's safe to assume the recovery in question is phantasm since it's the prominent method of getting back to the stage with Falco. Firebird is screwed by anyone and a decent Falco will not be using it outside the most situational scenarios. Fire stops phantasm but it does not gimp it, and Falco many has options in that situation

The only option falco has is to get hit by the fire and DI into Bowser, which is never a good idea to begin with. That's like 20% minimum right there.

If Bowser throws the claw at you, or is about to since it's horribly telegraphed, and you spot dodge it will miss.

Are you talking about an aerial klaw? lol

Also if Bowser is hovering in front of you going for the grab you can just reverse SHDL.

Bowser should never be "going" for grabs. His grab range is horrendous, and he'll be punished for it. The solution? I grab when you see an opening. Otherwise, forget about it.

Falco's aerials are great against bowser when he is airborn or on the ground. The only really good one bowser has is Fair, and the others are situational because of lag or where it covers. Watch out for the bowser bomb.

Bowser's Fair and Bair both come out quick, and actually beat most of Falco's aerials. The only thing that can beat both is your Bair.

And I think you want to grab the higher port number to give greatest deflection of bowsercide attempts. Although, I am not sure if port control even really matters in determining which was bowser will -cide if you move left or right more seeing as both players can control it.

Port number makes no difference. If we Bowsercide the final stock, we win anyway according to the SBR ruleset.

 

[pure_awesome]

I love fighting Bowser and think it's at least 60:40, and would personally rate it 65:35. He's one of those random characters I had to learn to fight when Skip picked him up.

The match is **** once you learn it. Bowser has literally zero answer for Falco's laser game, and if you learn the spacing of Phantasm, you can zip through Fire and knock Bowser out of it, though you may still take 2-3% damage in the process. Or, Phantasm to the edge through Fire and abuse the invincibility frames. Thank you, wierd *** hurtboxes on Phantasm. Bowser is one of the few characters that has serious trouble gimping Falco.

Bowser doesn't have the luxury of being able to turn his chaingrab around, so playing your stage positioning well by keeping your back to the edge of the stage eliminates much of the threat from the chaingrab while keeping you in prime camp position. Falco can abuse his jab up close to give Bowser conniptions trying to land anything, and Fullhop rising Dair is a great get-the-hell-out-of-Dodge move thanks to Bowser's size.

I've never had any trouble with Klawhopping, so I never really developped a specific counter to it. Just kind of stand back and Laser is a good enough counter, Utilt might be able to fight it too.

Also, Falco can Dair Bowser out of his UpB. Its pretty lulzy.

 

[SpeedAcE]

The only option falco has is to get hit by the fire and DI into Bowser, which is never a good idea to begin with.
Are you talking about an aerial klaw? lol
Bowser should never be "going" for grabs. His grab range is horrendous, and he'll be punished for it. The solution? I grab when you see an opening. Otherwise, forget about it.

-Except for Bowser's horrendous ending lag after fire breath. You can use this every time to facilitate a phantasm or grab the ledge. -I kno rite -Bowser needs to go for the grab, and it will be his primary objective because without it he doesn't have a legitimate way to damage Falco assuming he plays keep away. Falco will be forcing your openings in this match, not the inverse.

 

[MrEh]

The match is **** once you learn it.

Dedede is ****, not Falco.

Or, Phantasm to the edge through Fire and abuse the invincibility frames.

You can't do this. Fire beats the your side B all the time.

Bowser doesn't have the luxury of being able to turn his chaingrab around, so playing your stage positioning well by keeping your back to the edge of the stage eliminates much of the threat from the chaingrab while keeping you in prime camp position.

Bowser's chaingrab is mostly for positioning. As long as Bowser can grab release you to the end of the stage, he can start breathing fire, and you're going to take damage in the process.

Falco can abuse his jab up close to give Bowser conniptions trying to land anything, and Fullhop rising Dair is a great get-the-hell-out-of-Dodge move thanks to Bowser's size.

Have you ever seen Bowser's Jab? lol

I've never had any trouble with Klawhopping, so I never really developped a specific counter to it. Just kind of stand back and Laser is a good enough counter, Utilt might be able to fight it too.

Bowser shouldn't be infinite jumping when you can shoot lasers to stop it easily.

Also, Falco can Dair Bowser out of his UpB. Its pretty lulzy.

I'm pretty sure Bowser's Fortress wins, but only the initial hitbox. The lingering hitbox gets beat by everything.

 

[Blad01]

Seriously, I'm not being biased, I've played some pretty good Bowsers, but Falco is superior in everything in this match-up...
Even if Bowser can rack up some damages with Firebreath... Yeah everybody can edgeguard Falco anyways :/

I would say 65-35, or 60-40 due to his weight maybe... But seriously Falco is one of the best to naturally exploit every single Bowser's weakness (get combo'ed, CG'ed, edgeguarded, hard time dealing with lasers, get juggled...)

 

[Liquid Gen]

I love fighting Bowser and think it's at least 60:40, and would personally rate it 65:35. He's one of those random characters I had to learn to fight when Skip picked him up.

The match is **** once you learn it. Bowser has literally zero answer for Falco's laser game, and if you learn the spacing of Phantasm, you can zip through Fire and knock Bowser out of it, though you may still take 2-3% damage in the process. Or, Phantasm to the edge through Fire and abuse the invincibility frames. Thank you, wierd *** hurtboxes on Phantasm. Bowser is one of the few characters that has serious trouble gimping Falco.

Bowser doesn't have the luxury of being able to turn his chaingrab around, so playing your stage positioning well by keeping your back to the edge of the stage eliminates much of the threat from the chaingrab while keeping you in prime camp position. Falco can abuse his jab up close to give Bowser conniptions trying to land anything, and Fullhop rising Dair is a great get-the-hell-out-of-Dodge move thanks to Bowser's size.

I've never had any trouble with Klawhopping, so I never really developped a specific counter to it. Just kind of stand back and Laser is a good enough counter, Utilt might be able to fight it too.

Also, Falco can Dair Bowser out of his UpB. Its pretty lulzy.

Sounds like "skip" is pretty bad if he gave you all of these completely wrong ideas.

The only thing marginally true about this post is about klawhopping.

 

[MrEh]

Hey, I'm all for 60-40. Whatever floats your boat man. ^^

But seriously Falco is one of the best to naturally exploit every single Bowser's weakness

I agree with everything except the edgeguarding part. Bowser is actually very hard to gimp.

 

[pure_awesome]

Falco's Phantasm can go through Fire. It can go through any projectile, you just need to learn the spacing. It has bizarre hurtboxes. And it's much easier to learn the spacing for Fire than it is for any other projectile since Fire is always in the same spot when Falco is being edgeguarded: at the edge. Since we aren't exactly in any danger of Bowser trying to jump off stage to gimp, we can take all the time we like to set it up.

Granted, if Bowser hits Falco far enough that he doesn't have the luxury of being able to Phantasm at the proper distance, then we'll take some damage. But the effectiveness is stage-dependant. On BF and Smashville, we can just DI down under the stage and Firebird to the auto-snap spot, and Bowser can't angle his fire enough to hit. We end up only taking like 5% depending on how long Bowser has had Fire out.

Don't get me wrong, Fire is effective, but once you learn the match-up Falco has enough options to deal with it that it's just too much for one move to cover.

Falco's jab >>> Bowser's.


Anyway, there isn't exactly a huge different between 60-40 and 65-35, so at least we have a general idea where the match-up is.

 

[Vlade]

^ I agree. We have come to a consensus that phantasm has a reasonable amount of invincibility frames (about 1/3rd of it) so fire can't really touch us if we space it properly.

Anyway if bowser wants to just wait for us to approach at chaingrab %, I'd be happy to just laser camp for a free 45%.

60:40 falco's favour imo.

 

[Blad01]

^ I agree. We have come to a consensus that phantasm has a reasonable amount of invincibility frames (about 1/3rd of it) so fire can't really touch us if we space it properly.

Well actually I've already been hit in the first 1/3 of the hitbox. I just think that the hitbow is slim (at the very middle of the phantasm's height). I don't think there are any invincibility frames...

 

[smashkng]

What's goes in Koopa's favour is that Koopa's grab release chain grab works very well on Falco and outside the stage he can air release into fair. Falco shouldn't underestimate Koopa, so Falcos should be still careful to not get grabbed.

 

[pure_awesome]

The way I understand it from looking at it frame-by-frame is that Phantasm doesn't give any invincibility frames, it just appears that way. Since Falco travels a significant distance in the space of three frames, there are some places where he just... isn't. Even though, realistically speaking, he would have passed through there.

Look at it this way.

Falco starts the Phantasm here.
|
|
V
F.............................................

Frame 17 Falco is here

F..............................................

Frame 18

.......................F.......................

Frame 19

..............................................F


Where ....... is dead space. So if P is your projectile...

F...........P.........F...................F

Falco just kind of bypasses it.

I'm like 99% sure this is how it works. Obviously it's not going to be exactly like my hilariously crude diagram, but the theory anyway. Unfortunately I had to send my Wii in for repairs, so I can't confirm this right now.


I'm less sure about this part, but I also think that Falco's hurtbox is bigger than usual while in Phantasm, so that it would actually look more like this.

fffFfff.P..fffFfff...fffFfff

It's the only reason I can think of for why people seem to be able to hit Falco out of Phantasm so easily despite him only being there for one frame, and going through projectiles happens so rarely when you do it by accident.


What happens when you Bair a Bowser UpB? As in, when he's recovering? I'm assuming the two exchange hits?

 

[Blad01]

The funy thing is, Fair gimps Up B (It exchanges hits)

 

[BleachigoZX]

Yeah this is def around 65:35

Falco destroys Boozer. I remember playing Vex along time ago, when I was scrubby. And I didn't have too much trouble.(He beat me with GW though...) Also Camping slows bowser soooo hard. This alone makes it hard. Falco > Bowser in every way.

Minus Strength and Weight.

 

[sniperworm]

Falco's Phantasm can go through Fire. It can go through any projectile, you just need to learn the spacing.

I've never seen Falco go through another Falco's laser or through a full needle barrage from Sheik. In fact, I've never seen Falco's phantasm go through any large projectile(aka fully charged aura sphere and charge shot, max range Din's Fire, full power PK Freeze, etc). Is there a thread somewhere that'll show me how to go through projectiles? Because that's so freaking cool.

 

[Denzi]

I've never seen Falco go through another Falco's laser or through a full needle barrage from Sheik. In fact, I've never seen Falco's phantasm go through any large projectile(aka fully charged aura sphere and charge shot, max range Din's Fire, full power PK Freeze, etc). Is there a thread somewhere that'll show me how to go through projectiles? Because that's so freaking cool.

There's no thread, and he can't go through longer projectiles (laser/needles/PKthunder/etc), but it is possible to go through anything smaller than a fully charged Power Shot/Aura Sphere.

Yeah, it's pretty awesome.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Look at it this way.

Falco starts the Phantasm here.
|
|
V
F.............................................

Frame 17 Falco is here

F..............................................

Frame 18

.......................F.......................

Frame 19

..............................................F


Where ....... is dead space. So if P is your projectile...

F...........P.........F...................F

Falco just kind of bypasses it.

Cause: Frame 17-18-19 Phantasm.
Effect: Falco Warps distance in brawl.

Cause: MK infinite dimensional cape.
Effect:MK warps distance in brawl.

Result: Infinite Dimensional Cape = Banned
Result: Phantasm = Next to be banned



Edit: I guess this has to be about the thread. Don't Forget about Bair beating falco's phantasm like Fair. You Phantasm into that, ouch.

 

[pure_awesome]

Man, everything beats Phantasm. Bowser can just beat it harder than most people. This is why Falco's recovery is bottom tier. Below his Dtilt, right above Fair.

Also, Phantasm should actually be banned FASTER than IDC, since he's got a hitbox out while he's warping! Falco is so broken!

 

[Alphicans]

Who racks up more damage faster and easier? Falco does. Therefore he wins. It's that simple guys.

 

[MrEh]

Who racks up more damage faster and easier? Falco does. Therefore he wins. It's that simple guys.

I usually attribute the winner as the person who gets the grab first. lol

 

[Teran]

I usually attribute the winner as the person who gets the grab first. lol

We don't even need to grab at all to win this match.

 

[Zesty_Chicken]

I've played very few Bowsers, so I don't exactly have an expert opinion.

If you want to, you could just camp the whole match and Bowser can do practically nothing about it. Close range is where Bowser completely ***** us. His OOS option are crazy. Fortress and grab are the main ones.

As for the grab game, with bowser being able to CG us whenever he wants is good. Falco can CG-->spike or DACUS for some nice damage, but overall I'd say Bowser's got a better grab game.

Both Falco and Bowser have pretty predictable recoveries, but (I think) Fortress has a lot of priority. Fortunately, Bowser doesn't have many gimping option, while we do.

MrEh has it right: Whoever gets the first grab win.

I'd say this matchup is either 55:45 to 60:40 Falco's favor.

 

[professor mgw]

Week #25 : Bowser​

The legendary Koopa King. Discuss ! ​

60-45

chaingrab murders bowser

 

[Teran]

60-45

You need to listen more in math class bro.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You need to listen more in math class bro.

bowser is just 105% of a character

 

[Teran]

Falco is just 105% of a character

Fix'd

Now gtfo and cleanse your soul for a week. Blasphemy like that is most unappreciated.