Match-up discussion week 28: Sonic

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Being one of the fastest risers, Sonic is the next logical opponent to discuss.

I just made this discussion temporarily, because we've been doing nothing a while now.

Also, a recent overview.

Discuss away!

 

[Emperor Time]

What Sonic has:
-Speed
-Teh spindash
-Weight

What Falco has:
-Lasers
-Range
-Priority
-CG

Now, this MU isn't as easy as most think. Lasers can mess him up, but he can approach pretty well with a combination of running and spindash canceling. S-dash canceling is pretty much the biggest problem here. It lets him chain a lot of attacks and deal some decent damage.

However, we beat him out in plenty of stuff. We can space pretty well with lasers and ftilt and lasers and we pretty much beat him in the air and and ground.

Offstage is a little bit harder. One should always be wary of Sonic's bair(which can be chained from a spindash) which can screw you over

Sonic's grab game is legit. He's mostly gonna be using Uthrow and Dthrow. Uthrow allows him to use various airs when you're in midair. Also, watch out for Uair oos.

Play some serious oppression, and you should be fine.

Sonic is kind of underrated, though. I've seen MD/VA Sonic mains like Shado, SM5, and BionicSonic do some serious damage with him.


Bread>Steak

55-45

 

[King Funk]

Discuss away!

You got to update this chart by ordering everyone according to their new tier list positions. ^^

 

[Vlade]

Don't forget that you have to do a walking chaingrab perfectly so that Sonic doesn't escape with his Upb.

Jab beats all of Sonic's approaches, so abuse that.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Lasers aren't all that great in this math up. He can avoid them pretty easily. However, his approaches get *****.

Jab or SH Dair is greater than any grounded approach. Nair is better than all his aerial approaches.

If he Dthrows you, you can tech before he finishes his animation.
If he Uthrows you, you DI behind or in front of him (I forget which). He won't be able to UpB > Bair/Uair that way.

If you force him to recover low, he can't auto sweet spot the ledge so it can lead to a gimp. That's probably the only way You"ll really be able to gimp though.

His taunts are really annoying and all his moves look the same.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

i cannot stress how important JAB is in this matchup. it stops all his stupid spin appraoches. if a sonic is spinning towards you, you can literally stand there and hold A and jab will beat it. its a MUCH better option then lasering or dairing their spins

 

[DDM]

I dread having to face Falco, what with his laser blocking much of Sonic's approaches.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sonic relies upon having to mix up his game a ton in order to do any damage. The one problem he does have is having a very hard time getting any kills. He fails harder at it than we do. Apart from gimps (spring on firebird), all he has is Fsmash and Dsmash as his best KO moves. USmash can easily be DIed out of, and the others are hard to hit with.

As mentioned Sonic has more weight, better recovery which makes KOing him difficult, but with lasers we can get some set-ups for KOs. Sonic also has a very good grab game. With running speed and a Dthrow that leads into a tech chase he can rack up decent damage with this.

Always let Sonic approach you and try to read him. It's difficult enough trying to hurt sonic without you putting yourself in a postion to get punished. If you intend to use lasers at mid distance always try to perform SHL, retreating SHL is normally best. SHL is better because it's a less punishable window while in the air and you can adjust the height of it or decide to use and aerial before hand mid jump.

For this match-up I would say that Falco has the advantage 55-45.

 

[aeghrur]

Bread>Steak

Unless you're vegetarian, you can't seriously believe this...
Who wants tasteless pieces of wheat instead of deliciously cooked perfection along with the sauces that descend from the heavens?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Unless you're vegetarian, you can't seriously believe this...
Who wants tasteless pieces of wheat instead of deliciously cooked perfection along with the sauces that descend from the heavens?

But what can you possibly do with Steak besides at a few sauces and few spices. Bread you can do infinite amount of things to. It can even make a Steak Sandwich. Bread + Steak = 1337 Ownage <3

My Falconess in my caused me to respond with such a statement, even though this has nothing to do with the match-up, so next time try to add in something regarding the match-up.

 

[Tenki]

What Sonic has:
-Speed
-Teh spindash
-Weight

What Falco has:
-Lasers
-Range
-Priority
-CG

Now, this MU isn't as easy as most think. Lasers can mess him up, but he can approach pretty well with a combination of running and spindash canceling. S-dash canceling is pretty much the biggest problem here. It lets him chain a lot of attacks and deal some decent damage.

...

Sonic's grab game is legit. He's mostly gonna be using Uthrow and Dthrow. Uthrow allows him to use various airs when you're in midair. Also, watch out for Uair oos.

We'll abuse D-throw if you don't know how to get free hits from it.
Which I'm about to spoil right now, because I just went through a whole tourney without anyone doing it at all >_>;

How to counter Sonic's D-throw!!
- Sonic's D-throw has 3 hits.
- Everyone (EXCEPT JIGGLYPUFF, who gets it at 139% [loser]) can DI the D-throw downwards so that they get launched pretty much right in front of Sonic.
- Put together, hold down during the D-throw, then, in the rhythm of a "fourth" hit, tech the floor and you will stand up/recover while Sonic is still in ending lag.
- You can get free jabs (think jab cancel moves plz) out of this, and maybe even a grab, if they're not expecting it (Sonic can buffer a spotdodge from it). Anything else is too slow to be guaranteed, but anything can happen the first time you tech the D-throw lol.​

But anyway, we've been spreading that around and also, in the case of a matchup-knowledgable player, have also started replacing D-throw with F-throw followups, which is especially good for characters who have bad F-airs/D-airs or who can be outprioritized/punished by Sonic's F-air/B-air/U-air from the front/bottom.

Jab beats all of Sonic's approaches, so abuse that.

B-air, D-tilt, U-air (err, guaranteed if we SDI'd towards you during multijab, so you're better off jab cancelling, really) shield... etc

wat.

oh, well, I guess it's true if all your Sonic players use spindash to approach or something. get future.

But jab is good because it's not a very character-committed move, so it's potentially harder to punish. Granted, some players might be mentally committed to doing 2-3 jabs (even though they would normally only be safe with 1).
-----------------------

IMO Falco should really prefer the air in this matchup. Sonic excels at baiting and/or punishing grounded options (ex: if you start to shield much, you're probably going to get dashgrabbed - if you start to spotdodge, we're landing F-smashes on that mofo via wonders of Sonic's speed + foxtrot/dashdance pivots/IASA from full run - if you attack when we simply run at you, we'll shieldgrab you). Also, B-air's not too bad of a kill move in this matchup.

Falco's N-air is pretty good in this matchup, I think. N-air>U-tilt might be good for you guys, but I'm not sure how legit that is since the only Falco to ever do that to me was on wifi lol.

do lots of SH, and don't side-B yourself onto the stage at full range, because we can B-air or F-smash that - during OR AFTER it (if we shield it, we can grab or dash attack you, depending on how far you are).

Don't play this matchup thinking you can pull the same **** you can on most characters, because that's a fatal playstyle flaw that alot of characters do on Sonic. For example, if you think SHDL will slow Sonic down, remember that you have lag/can't hit Sonic on your way up, and he can close distance as Falco's rising (55 frames = FD crossed, in Sonic time). Having a silent laser protect your landing may save you from grab attempts from mis-timing/mis-spacing Sonics, since you're lagless from that (?)

Falco's chaingrab is legit and I'm pretty sure if you do it right you can still get 40%+ off of it (just the chaingrab alone). You won't be getting many, if any, gimp kills from it, but careful landing/airdodge camping can give you a noticeable head start.

For the Sonic side, I think FH rising aerials (ex: F-air) are relatively safe on shield for the most part when Sonic is at low %'s (concerning the chaingrab) - I know that D3 can have issues getting grabs from that whereas he can normally grab SH aerials lol. Falco might be able to U-air or B-air OoS, but I doubt you'd be getting a grab from that, and it's a welcome tradeoff to potential 'free' 50%+.

[obligatory "spindash sucks and you shouldn't be placing emphasis on it as an approach" sidenote]
BTW, spindash should, optimally, be used for punishment or baiting - that is, if we read a spotdodge or you have landing lag, that's when things like ASC (aerial down-B) or grounded spindash shenanigans would be used to get our "free" 20-35% damage on you lol. It's far too easy to just jab, grab, pivot grab, or just use an aerial and outprioritize a spindash that's being used to directly approach you.

 

[TwinkleToes]

But what can you possibly do with Steak besides at a few sauces and few spices. Bread you can do infinite amount of things to. It can even make a Steak Sandwich. Bread + Steak = 1337 Ownage <3

My Falconess in my caused me to respond with such a statement, even though this has nothing to do with the match-up, so next time try to add in something regarding the match-up.

Right, think of all the various kinds of birds you can feed with bread. Some breads can double as toilet paper too!

Sonic will deal with your range and priority advantages the way he deals with every other characters' range and priority advantages (seriously, who can't outrange Sonic?) he'll mind game you. Problem is, the fakes and spacing can get broken up by laser spam making it harder for Sonic to establish a good rhythm which can be devastating. The only reason I think it's a 60-40 to Falco and not 70-30 is because of the relatively easy time we have with gimping Falco's recovery.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Approaching with Dtilt and Uair . . . . Sounds ridiculous to me.

 

[JayBee]

indeed lasers are very iffy against sonic, and should be used very intellegently. Sonic's agility can allow him to dodge with relative ease, and if you are too dead set on laser camping, sonic's can use a more aerial approach. be worried about your lag around mid range. in addition, a glitch where sonic's spin dash special gains additional properties and "priority" , known as isdr (invincible spindash roll) , is unaffected by lasers (i dont know about Down B, but i think that applies too) so avoid stages like Yoshi's Island to prevent the negation of one of Falco's most important strengths (look for stages with angled floors or ramps to determine the ease of accessing this ability, like Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, and Rainbow Cruise). that combined with sonic's speed gives falco little time to safely spam lasers, in fact, it is best that you do not spam them in this matchup.


Most good sonic's can punish ground moves, and the majoriy of falco's moves can be punshed by sonic as well. you rquickest moves are needed to fend him off. Jab cancelling is very important to get the chaingrab, with sonic's mobility its the primary method of getting a grab safely. falco must realize the all of sonic's spin specials can be canceled prior ot release. In additon, against falco, running and using the shield is the best way to approach falco with sonic, and still gives them a chance to defend against a possible chaingrab.

What makes the matchup more in falco's favor, is Falco Phantasm on the ground. it is quick, allows falco to escape a possible mindgame before it even happens, gives enough room to recover if sonic blocks, and if the player is technical enough, he can cancel the lag of the side B, and be nearly safe from any counter attack. offstage, Sonic knows you have to do it and can cover the ground needed to punish, but on the stage where he also has to worry about lasers and Falco's folloups, its much harder to punish. Use often.

pay close attention to what sonic does after a blocked spin attack. A really good sonic can jump cancel , attack, and/or spring away via Upb, or simply continue rolling away. However they will usually jump cancel on block which is when you use your bair or upair oos to counter.

To edgegaurd sonic is very hard for falco, but since sonic cannot sweetspot during upB, look to either block the followup attack then counter, or grab him as he rises close to the ledge without pummeling to get an effect similar to "grabbing the cypher" against snake. BUT, this only can happen if sonic is forced to recover low, and doing that consistantly is very hard. Sonic's recovery set is darn near the best in the game, and can reach the main platforms without using his second jump even from the blastline. His momentum cancelling rivals only Mr. Game and Watch, so saving your killmoves is even more important.

Nair, Jab, are your best freinds to protect against aggressive approaches and agressive sonics, which most are. the matchup gets harder as the sonic realizes the lasers dont really affect him, but your normals are fast enought to hold him off. Hold off on your smashes until its kill time, there's no need to give him a chance to shield grab you. However, you still have some troble killing sonic, since your Fsmash has to be setup, and most of your kills on sonic will be from trying to punish him as he lands back onstage, or a tech chase. Dair kills are nearly too inconsistant to rely on.

Falco has the advantage, 60-40. his offstage game isn't good enough outside of sideB, and many times sonic only needs to get Falco offstage a few times. however if falco is defensive and he can be, this problem is limited to only a few en****ers. the rest, is just mindgames.

-that's what i got.

 

[YUNq PHR3$H]

Lasers aren't all that great in this math up.

Typo Much
Well Ive fought a few Sonic's and all i can remember is. . . SPEED
I Would Say 60;40 But I Can Be Wrong Since I Don't Fight Alot Of Sonic's.
A-A-A Combo Is Good. Try Not To Give Sonic To Much Spacing Because If You Didn't Remember , He Is The Fastest Character. Lasers Can Give You a edge but not by that much. CG && DLX can help you to if you can get to him. Sonic Is Like A Hit && Run So Just Learn Your Way Around That And Your Set.
Bans= FD, YI, LC
CP= Japes,Nofair

 

[JayBee]

isn't norfair banned?

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

You're correcting me? That's like pot calling the off white and blue ceramic Chinese tea set black.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I keep forgetting about the Dthrow teching thing that we can do to escape it.

Norfair is a counter/ban. So it's still a CP to keep note of.

Personally I dont' like to use Norfair or JJ against Sonic. I prefer to use RC at times. Really ruin sonic's entire game at the risk of making Falco's recovery worse. I mean since sonic himself pretty much stops a lot of the things Falco has already, what harm can a stage do. It would ruin Sonic more so I believe, and it's worked well so far.

RC or use Brinstar against sonic. Really mess him up there.

 

[Vlade]

So what's the match-up ratio? 60:40 falco's favour?

I believe this is so because of falco's superior damage-racking ability thanks to the chaingrab, great priority + range on the ground and moreso in the air. His Laser game may not be as potent as usual due to Sonic's great ground mobility however.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So what's the match-up ratio? 60:40 falco's favour?

I believe this is so because of falco's superior damage-racking ability thanks to the chaingrab, great priority + range on the ground and moreso in the air. His Laser game may not be as potent as usual due to Sonic's great ground mobility however.

Either 60-40 or 55-45. Either way sonics and us agree it's an advantage for falco.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So what's the match-up ratio? 60:40 falco's favour?

I believe this is so because of falco's superior damage-racking ability thanks to the chaingrab, great priority + range on the ground and moreso in the air. His Laser game may not be as potent as usual due to Sonic's great ground mobility however.

Sonic weighs more than Falco (off the top of my head), but Falco's kill moves kill somewhat earlier. They are hard to land on a Sonic being all , though. Sonic has a momentum cancel, like bucket braking, just not as fast. His down and side-B cancels his momentum in the air when used. CG is what already gives you a slight edge. Lasers aren't bad in this MU at all. Just don't camp with them, but throw them out regularly. Throw one out, run after it. Hell, throw out a 2nd one for the fun of it.

Your level of choice should absolutely be Japes, because Falco is gay on that level and Sonic is heterosexual there.
Yoshi's Island is awesome here, lasers go right trough Sonic when using ISDR (invincible Spindash) and he can only clank with you. Falco doesn't outrange Sonic IMO.
Can someone tell me to what % does Sonic has D-tilt lock on Falco. Anyway, D-tilt can hit you like 3 times in a row and then grab you which is a quick 30-40%.

60:40 seems right though, cause Falco is the essence of all that is gay in brawl. Lasers, CG, fur/feathers and a spike D:<\

Note to Falco's saying jab beats out Sonic, Rainbow Cruise messes him game up or anything related to SDR being his main way to play:
NO. SONICS GAME DOES NOT, NOT, NOT RELY ON SPINDASHING AND COMBOING WITH IT. ITS ABOUT FAKING OUT, BAITING REACTIONS, PUNISHING THEM AND AERIALS. SONIC'S AERIAL GAME IS SUPERIOR TO FALCO'S. IT'S TRUE.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Don't forget that you have to do a walking chaingrab perfectly so that Sonic doesn't escape with his Upb.

Jab beats all of Sonic's approaches, so abuse that.

I'd like stuff like this posted in the CG thread.

 

[B-Mon]

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

You're correcting me? That's like pot calling the off white and blue ceramic Chinese tea set black.

LMAO!


I think Falco has an advantage even though spindash spam can prove to be quite annoying.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Note to Falco's saying jab beats out Sonic, Rainbow Cruise messes him game up or anything related to SDR being his main way to play:
NO. SONICS GAME DOES NOT, NOT, NOT RELY ON SPINDASHING AND COMBOING WITH IT. ITS ABOUT FAKING OUT, BAITING REACTIONS, PUNISHING THEM AND AERIALS. SONIC'S AERIAL GAME IS SUPERIOR TO FALCO'S. IT'S TRUE.

Why should we listen to you? You're a euro-***.

He's right, people.

Sonic does plenty fine on RC. And I mean real Sonics, who abuse his good aerial game; and not 7 year old fanboys most people seem to play who spindash everywhere.

The key to you winning this is stopping momentum. Lahyzorz are meh here, nairs **** me over unless I'm approaching with bair (which is fairly often actually). I'm not sure how easy its going to be to grab Sonic for the chaingrab. Offstage game doesn't really need explaining. Falco can't handle ASC too well I find.

45:55/40:60 Falco's favour because Sonic sucks.

 

[Jon?]

I just came back from a tourny and my first match was a pretty decent Sonic player. This is basically what happened.

game 1: Battlefield.
I basically counter his approaches with lasers or a simple jab. Following a laser or jab, I find an opening for grabs which allow me to CG. Walking buffered grab is needed in order to CG Sonic. I believe my main killing move were Upsmash and Bairs. I live to 170% on the first stock before he kills me with Dsmash. Ends being a 2 stock.

game 2: CP Pictochat.
Same usually stuff again, except this game took a little longer since I didn't want to engage him while the stage is on it's unfavorable changes. I believe I got most of my kills with Bair on this one.

Overall Matchup.
-Majority of our attacks either cancel or clash with Sonic's approaches.
-Buffered CG is required on Sonic or he'll upB out of it.
-Bair dominates all of Sonic aerials from the side.
-Despite Sonic's speed, SHDL from the other side of the stage is an effective way to camp.
-Jab-cancels to tilts/grabs is very effective. I don't think the opponent I played against could not find a way out of a jab-cancel.

 

[Marcbri]

I would say about 6-4 Falco, Sonic can be pretty annoying since lasers aren't as good as usual since he approaches us really fast(of course they are still key to stop Sonic's approaches), he can also escape the chaingrab at lower % and can gimp us easily ( if we got Faired we are dead). still we got that awesome priority and for once we have less problems than our rival getting the K.O.

Sonic may overcome our priority being fast and spacing well , but he 'll still have a lot of problems for Koing and I think there's where our advantage lays.

 

[Tenki]

Typo Much
Well Ive fought a few Sonic's and all i can remember is. . . SPEED
I Would Say 60;40 But I Can Be Wrong Since I Don't Fight Alot Of Sonic's.
A-A-A Combo Is Good. Try Not To Give Sonic To Much Spacing Because If You Didn't Remember , He Is The Fastest Character. Lasers Can Give You a edge but not by that much. CG && DLX can help you to if you can get to him. Sonic Is Like A Hit && Run So Just Learn Your Way Around That And Your Set.
Bans= FD, YI, LC
CP= Japes,Nofair

LOL.

I already said A-A-A combo (the multijab spinning BS) is terrible against Sonic, if he SDI's towards you he gets a free U-air - and if he SDI's up, he can just spring out.

Ban.. FD, YI, and wait, what's LC?

of these choices,

honestly, if you don't want to experience having lasers and your "lol just do x to hit his spindash" be completely ineffective via invincible spindash, ban Yoshi's Island.

in addition, a glitch where sonic's spin dash special gains additional properties and "priority" , known as isdr (invincible spindash roll) , is unaffected by lasers (i dont know about Down B, but i think that applies too) so avoid stages like Yoshi's Island to prevent the negation of one of Falco's most important strengths (look for stages with angled floors or ramps to determine the ease of accessing this ability, like Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, and Rainbow Cruise). that combined with sonic's speed gives falco little time to safely spam lasers, in fact, it is best that you do not spam them in this matchup.

...

Nair, Jab, are your best freinds to protect against aggressive approaches and agressive sonics, which most are. the matchup gets harder as the sonic realizes the lasers dont really affect him, but your normals are fast enought to hold him off.

More on iSDR - a grounded one can clang cancel with normal attacks, but an aerial one is completely unhittable - but you can camp his jump with lasers (if he doesn't jump, he's prone to suiciding). Aerial ones can be done on Pictochat, PS1, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar... as far as I can remember right now.

I prefer to use RC at times. Really ruin sonic's entire game at the risk of making Falco's recovery worse. I mean since sonic himself pretty much stops a lot of the things Falco has already, what harm can a stage do. It would ruin Sonic more so I believe, and it's worked well so far.

RC or use Brinstar against sonic. Really mess him up there.

Rainbow Cruise lets me fly at you completely invincible with an attack box. Get @ me, MK. Also, Sonic can shark under alot of platforms with side-B > aerial, though it's not that effective if you know how to camp it. However, it's still an option you don't want to forget.

Brinstar also gives us 3 areas to set up invincible spindashes/airdashes, as well as a place to unstale our moves, closer blast zones, platforms to camp your landing lag, a bridge to D-throw gimp you (ex: thin bridge, D-throw > forces a 'ground release' that you have to up-B from (LOLGOODLUCK)) and a pass-through floor that we can also side-B shark under.

LMAO!


I think Falco has an advantage even though spindash spam can prove to be quite annoying.

[obligatory "spindash sucks and you shouldn't be placing emphasis on it as an approach" sidenote]
BTW, spindash should, optimally, be used for punishment or baiting - that is, if we read a spotdodge or you have landing lag, that's when things like ASC (aerial down-B) or grounded spindash shenanigans would be used to get our "free" 20-35% damage on you lol. It's far too easy to just jab, grab, pivot grab, or just use an aerial and outprioritize a spindash that's being used to directly approach you.

;o

though, iSDR and airdash (the two invincible spindash tricks) are just slightly better than normal spindashes, you can still camp when he jumps out of it lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Rainbow Cruise lets me fly at you completely invincible with an attack box. Get @ me, MK. Also, Sonic can shark under alot of platforms with side-B > aerial, though it's not that effective if you know how to camp it. However, it's still an option you don't want to forget.

Brinstar also gives us 3 areas to set up invincible spindashes/airdashes, as well as a place to unstale our moves, closer blast zones, platforms to camp your landing lag, a bridge to D-throw gimp you (ex: thin bridge, D-throw > forces a 'ground release' that you have to up-B from (LOLGOODLUCK)) and a pass-through floor that we can also side-B shark under.

Is there anything that can slow Sonic down xD I felt those stages would lower his mobility enough that it would be reduced to fighting Falco on equal terms. Apprently your telling me that he gains even more momentum there lol

 

[Tenki]

The general rule that I think works well with Sonic is this - Don't choose stages that you think will make Sonic worse, because he works okay in like, every stage. Choose stages that your character gets better in instead lol.

Japes isn't too bad for Falco in my experience, but we'd probably ban that lol, so choose whatever you feel comfortable in.

 

[M@v]

Japes isn't too bad for Falco in my experience, but we'd probably ban that lol, so choose whatever you feel comfortable in.

Isn't too bad? its more like **** for him.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'd pick FD if I were Falco. Sonic doesn't get that much from FD, it only promotes your lasers.

 

[mars16]

Sonic is fast and is heavier with a high recovery plus has his cool spin dash.
His dash speed is fast but his attacks are not, well im not saying there slow but not fast. Falco can reflect and has faster attacks and projectile and chain grabbing.

50:40

 

[M@v]

^ This guy got his math down.

 

[Emperor Time]

EL OH EL

Probably meant 60:40

 

[BleachigoZX]

I can write stories on how to **** this character with Falco.

Once upon a time, jab...
Happily ever up smash...

The End

 

[chaoechidna]

Depends on how well you know sonic. He's all about mindgames and tricks, not spin dashes. If you know sonic, this match is an easy win. 60:40 falco sounds right, but a falco that knows the match up moderately well can make it 65:35 or 70:30 if they're really knowledgeable. Not an easy MU for sonic at all, but for falco, it should be cake.