Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[TheKneeOfJustice]

They are still escapable, just hard to do so. It's easier to escape than Falco's is for sure.

As far as QAC goes, I generally just do Nairs for no particular reason if I'm spaced away from Pikachu and not shooting lasers. I'd imagine it is a good deterrent for QAC spamming.

Lasers are good, but I almost find it better to be able to shine more for this match-up. It's good at hitting Pika out of fairs, and conditioning them to jolt and thunder less.

 

[Blad01]

Ok thanks ^^

Could something make a list of Pikachu's scaring moves and how you think we have to counter them ?

I personnally know how, but i want you to contribute haha

[EDIT : Olimar summary added]

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Like, the only scary moves are D-smash, Fair, U-tilt, and Grabs.

D-smash: Multi Tap DI is the best way out. There are a few methods, just find one that works. I angle the control stick up and do sort of a dash dance out.

Fair: >_<. Don't get hit? Haha. This move bugs more more than the others to be honest. Getting hit by it enough though is a lesson in not using your shield for this match-up.

U-tilt. This move combos into Thunder, or Uair -> Dair/Nair. This move is killer, fast, but can be predicted. The spacing is obvious, and you should be able to dodge it most of the time. The only problem is there really isn't significant lag on it to punish.

Grabs: Only because of the chain grab. It's not like they lead to a kill (shouldn't at least), it's just the same deal as yors is on them: free percentage.

 

[iDizZzY]

i just want to point something out with olimar

a few of his pikmin can level spike you while you are hanging on the edge

does anyone know which pikmin can do so, because it has happened to me a few times

sorry for going back to olimar, i just saw the fault and i thought i would point it out

 

[Master Raven]

Oh God, I cannot wait for ROB's week. I am seriously having problems with ROB players in general right now.

 

[SlashTalon]

i just want to point something out with olimar

a few of his pikmin can level spike you while you are hanging on the edge

does anyone know which pikmin can do so, because it has happened to me a few times

sorry for going back to olimar, i just saw the fault and i thought i would point it out

Purple always and Red (only at high damage)

 

[Blad01]

Does someone want to conclude on Pikachu's Math-Up ? The behaviour to adpot, and the keys of victory ?

Maybe this personn will be noticed by the SBR...

 

[TheX0913]

If I may, I will try my best to summarize this discussion on pikachu. *clears throat* Here I go. Blad01 please edit!

Behavior: Pikachu will tend to avoid lasers with full jumps covering enough distance to get in range for attack. Will use skull bash and QAC to recover and punish spiking falcos. Pikachu will use Fsmash to out prioritize your attacks.

His scaring moves:
-B moves: His thunder can cause enough damage and at times KO you. Pikachu will utilt in a thunder combo
-Quick attack: Although not a koing move it can help pikachus cover large distances in the blink of an eye opening up a venue of combos and deadly attacks.
-Fsmash: This attack can out prioritize most of falcos attacks, stun, and have huge knockback.
-Dsmash: Very dangerous move and can rack up damage easily

How to win?

Stay in range of a ftilt. In this manner you can cause enough knock back with ftilt. If you stay within this range you can also use your reflect for jolting pikachus, causing damage from the reflected jolt and the shine. Baiting pikachus in using thunders and punishing it with shine You can easily DI from the last of dmash and his throws. DI up for D throws and DI "away" for up throws. Never rolls towards a pikachu because of the threat of eating a full on Dsmash. Remember keep your spacing and stay in range of an ftilt. Aside from the ftilt and shine this range allows you to play aggressive and use Nair. In this range, pikachus aerial attacks can all be punished because of the landing lags leading to chaingrabs at low percentage or even a DLX cancel. When it comes time to kill the pikachu your best friend will be Bair since pikachus use skullbash to punish spiking falcos.

 

[Exousia]

I think we can start on this weeks discussion now on Ice Climbers or G7W or Marth or whoever is next.

 

[Blad01]

Week #6 : R.O.B​

Take a look at the OP.

Let's this new week begin ! Dicsuss !

 

[SlashTalon]

R.O.B. Has no soul, sure it may have seemed so in SSE, but he is a souless toy and must be destroyed.

That is all.



Oh and SHDLasers, DLX upsmash, Nair, Reflector, stay in center of stage. Avoid his Bair and if he is grounded in tilt range your neutral combo stops everything but his Fsmash which if you seen it coming your Reflector will beat timewise. When in the air he is vulnerable from below. Don't get gimped.

 

[toasty]

Slash pretty much just nailed it...just as he nails my poor Robby on a regular basis also, if ROB throws out a gyro, reflect it, it's yours. pick it up and hold on to it...it makes ROB very sad you can still do all of your special moves....lasers, sideB, downB all **** ROB because of the priority/range/speed. if he down/up throws you, as soon as you see him move, do a dair. I haven't tested if usmash beats it out...not sure though.

Hi Falcos *waves*

 

[TheX0913]

To add, never roll towards a ROB because you will eat a dsmash (just like pikachu). ROB is tricky in my opinion. You have to keep your distance no doubt. But trying to keep your space might allow the ROB to get too aggressive. I say this because it is difficult to spot dodge ROB due to the nature of his attacks. But if you shield he has good enough attacks to break your shield. Thats why I believe it would be a good method to use your reflector for space and play aggressively. His bair and nair are too predictable, in my opinion.

 

[old king coal]

you have to play aggressive against a good ROB. he is a better camper vs falco

no pun intended (what pun)

 

[old king coal]

also DO NOT JUMP INTO HIM WITH AN AERIAL! spacing is important in this matchup

 

[wangston]

ROB is really hard to approach. He can side step all your approaches and follow up with his god like down smash. The best thing to do is to attack him while he is in the air and you come from under him, he has a hard time hitting people below him because his attacks that hit downward are slow. Always shdl to keep pressure on him and don't let him charge the gyromite. I think a good ROB player might get chained grabbed twice if he DI's back. If you manage to grab the gyromite stay back and camp with your laser and use phantma to get away. Your up smash won't KO him until 140% so keep on racking up damage until then. Your b-air is your best friend. If ROB is camping shoot him with the laser to get his shield down then bust through his shield with your f-air. Also a good ROB player can't be spiked until about +160% he can just spam his up b whiel getting spiked and will cancel it and recover so you will have to spike ROB twice if your going to spike him to KO him.

 

[toasty]

****. they've figured us out ;____________; *gets mad at self for contributing*

 

[Exousia]

someone else would've told us anyway

 

[toasty]

*cries...and throws fat-headed children and *****es at birds*

 

[TheX0913]

wangston. I want to comment about your camping strategy...rather your use of phantasm in this battle. I've learned that phantasming against a rob is not wise...especially a savy ROB player. ROB's bair will annihilate you if you try to spam it and if you are trying to recover using phantasm make sure you execute the recover above him. If not, you will eat a mouth full of rocket fuel (or whatever he uses to stay in the air). Therefore, use phantasm sparingly.

 

[toasty]

yeah but he can camp with lasers and follow up a lagless laser with sideB...ROBs moves are far too slow to do anything about it except predict it. you use it a lot, without spamming it, but you can definitely do more than use it sparingly

recovery is a completely different story...but...ah, well Slash can talk more about that [unless he already has in his matchup thread lol]

 

[TheX0913]

I wanted to add. What about ROB's ( I think) side b. Can't ROB players tilt it up and down. So how can we approach if falco's strength is shorthop aerial attacks? Unless his bair out prioritizes this...which leads to my other question. If bair is our only approach then our ROB users can simply spot dodge and dsmash and then which way do we have of approaching. Camp with lasers? But his side smash reflects falco's lasers so then what?

 

[Kamano]

From what I understand from my ROB-maining friend, using the sideB to reflect with ROB is generally not worthwhile for smaller, fast projectiles such as Falco's lasers. He'd still end up eating 1-2 lasers for every one he reflects. As for approaches, I don't have anything useful to say really. Dsmash ***** any approach that puts you next to ROB.

 

[BEES]

Totally haven't tested this but Falco's dtilt might catch attacks with disjointed hitboxes. I think if ROB does a dsmash, and you do a dtilt just outside of range, you'll catch the hitbox of his attack and outprioritize it.

I completely haven't tested this at all though. I just noticed it in a couple fights, and I don't know if I was imagining it or if it's real.

It might just clang.

 

[manhunter098]

Wouldnt it be better to clang? Since if ROBs down smash produces a disjointed hitbox, that means that you have to project a hitbox far enough to hit ROB if you wanted to actually make use of the ability to out prioritize his attacks. I would think that if you just collided your own hitbox with a disjointed hitbox, that if you outprioritize it, then your attack would continue and you would still get any of the ending lag and your opponents attack would be stopped, and if your attack doesnt actually hit them, then you are getting the sour end of that deal.

All this said, I havent really put much thought or research or testing to seeing what happens when you outprioritize a disjointed hitbox. But I do tend to think of disjointed hitboxes as more like a projectile than anything else, so similar rules would apply.


Thinking about it though, what if you perfect shielded ROBs down smash, and then b-air him in the face (or d-air if you are facing him) since for ROB a missed down smash leaves him rather open to aerial attacks.

 

[TheX0913]

From some research it seems that when a ROB approaches it will approach with a SH f tilt nicknamed wall of death. We can keep our distance by using reflectors and the good old reflector. Also be on guard against rolling ROBs when they finished shooting their gyro. They will try to use what is called a glide toss. That is when they have an item in their hand they suffer from no lag when they roll and immediately throw the item. They will follow up with a grab after this or some form of attack. Recovering against a ROB will be tough...most of ROB's move are difficult to get through, especially with falco's not so good up b. At any rate our best recovering move would be the phantasm. When retreating, ROBs will go back to their favorite f airs and they will also try to use bair. ROBs fair is difficult to get through and his bair is killer is hit with but again we can use our reflector. When we are off the stage always try your hardest to not get by the fair. Immediately phantasm when off the stage. ROBs will continue to fair you until you far enough from the stage and ride off on his up b. Our best option is to SHL laser and try to off camp the ROB, in my opinion. We should try to use our reflector to psyche out the opponent, that is make them believe you are coming in for an attack, so run, stop, and whip out the reflector. Bair is another attack we can use to beat a rob.

 

[Binx]

Against Rob you have to be very patient, he outranges you but if you switch up lasers and phantasms to keep away from him it should force action, try and anticipate his laser and his gyro so you can reflect them, if you manage a grab at lower percents I don't think Rob can be easily chain thrown so it's probably best to throw just once or twice and then DA up smash him for more percent, when rob is above you, you can try and anticipate either a dodge a dair or if he was facing away for some reason a bair, as far as the bair goes I don't think you can really punish it so if you think he is going to take that option I would just shoot him a few times, if you airdodges obviously you can get another free grab out of the deal or maybe a well timed smash or tilt. If he dairs you need to block it or spot dodge it and then you can up smash or up tilt, his fair shouldn't give you trouble if your spacing correctly during this aerial tech chase so I wont bother with it.

Hope some of that helps, my main problem with Rob is just getting the finishing blow, its very hard not to get predictable when you only have 2 good killing moves.

 

[wangston]

I don't mean to rain on the ROB parade but can we discuss Lucario next week. I fought him and the finals of a tournament today and lost. I was clueless on how to fought him. But I do have to more advice for ROB because I have been fighting lots of the lately. So the best bet is not to approach because it's really diffcult to approach ROB. I've been using SHL and SHDL to get him to approach me. He he gets in range I use the reflector and trip him He is very weak in the air because his movers are slow, well the ones that hit underneath him. The best plain of attack while ROB is in the air is diagonal from the way he is facing. That way you can't get hit with bair, dair, nair, all of his heavy hitter moves because there to slow and you won't be in range of them, he also won't hit you with uair or fair because your out there range as well. Come at with with a bair or an uair from that spot and you should hit him eveytime.

 

[TheX0913]

I agree. I say we have discussed the theory of ROB enough. Let's move onto the next character. Im up for discussing anyone.

 

[wangston]

Well I don't want ROB's week to be cut short or anything like that. But I would really like the next discussion on Lucario. I have no idea how to fight him I'm not even sure what he does, it would be a big help to me if that is who we discussed next. Like I said earlier I lost to him in a finals of a tournament I lost 4 matches to him by one stock but he controlled ever game. Please help. I know he can't be chained grabbed at all but you can down throw to a dash dair. He can chaingrab you from 0%-30%.

 

[gallax]

hey everyone! its falco's week for matchup discussions in the pikachu threads so anything you might have to say about the matchup is appreciated. thanks!

 

[Blad01]

Well, i don't think we have talked about ROB enough but.... Yes, it's time to move on.

Week #7 : Lucario​

Ok, let's begin ! I hope this week's character will attract more people ^^

 

[TheX0913]

I'll start with this good video on Lucario's double team. http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtTrTZZVA-M
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qZH8V3wxFkc

 

[wangston]

From losing to Lucario in a tournament I can say what to stay away from. When your at low percents avoid getting chain thrown, you can escape around 30% with DI and jumping. When you're knocked up in the air and Lucario is coming at you don't try to Dair his Uair will out prioritize you. He cannot be chain thrown so down throw into dash/upsmash or buffer a dash and dair and follow with down smash. If he is around 40% and you grab him close to the edge use the buffer dash dair to spike him then edge hog. Laser, lasers, lasers, constant pressure with lasers and never let him charge his aura sphere so hit him with the laser. His forward smash is slow so if you spot dodge like your normally would your going to get hit, his fsmash takes a while to come out, I think you best bet at close range like that is your AAA, but if he rolls you will get punished so switch between AAA and tilt A. You want to kill him early, but once he is at high percents don't just spam the ko moves that is too predictable, keep on fighting him and wait for an opening. Learn the aura sphere launching animation so you can tell when it is coming so you can reflect it. You're going to want to counter pick anything Lucario can't wall cling to.

 

[iDizZzY]

what i have to say about falco is DO NOT follow him off the map. Lucario has amzing gimping ability against falcos.

 

[Baky]

Lucario's forward smash has more range than Marth's tipper. When used the "tip" of the aura is actually where it has the most knockback, (I'm pretty sure).

When starting, use lasers constantly to stop all charging of Aura Spheres. Every time you see a lucario start to charge, cancel it by any means. Also be aware that their double team can be controlled and is possible that if you camp at close distances you'll find yourself in a mean combination.

Beware of all tilts. If you F-smash and the lucario spot dodges you'll find yourself in a chain of U-tilts.

Lucario's F-tilt is fast, does good damage. His D-tilt is his fastest tilt, it does little damage and knocks the opponent upward.

In the air, Lucario should dominate unless if you cancel his attacks with lasers.

Also, consider your falco do not attack if Lucario is directly above you.

I'm too lazy to organize what I said and you all know there is much more but I'm honestly bored now. So imma go do other stuff lol

 

[TheX0913]

I'm going to try to type all of the information i've gathered from what i believed were the good and main lucario boards:

When falco approaches lucario he will try to use aura sphere of course. This can be canceled by using the laser of course. Lucario's will try to use a tactic similar to a ROB's wall of pain or Wofl's wall of bair. Lucario has sevral options and they include making a wall of bair, fair, and nair along with force palm. At the right distance the laser can be used to punish the lucario who does this. By right distance I mean right in the range for a shine which might be used. Im not sure if lucario's priority wins (someone check me on this). When they are dodging
your lasers or force you into the air beware the double team. I have shown the video and what double team is capable of.

When a lucario trys to approach you they will try to RAR a bair because of its HUGE hitbox. Along with Bair a lucario will use a fair for attack when approaching, again because of its huge hitbox. Please be careful when using the laser. Do not be predictable because lucario users are aware of their attacks and their hitbox. This means that they will want to get in your face. Lucario isn't that quick of a character right? Wrong. A lucario will take advantage of projectiles by using double team to intentionally take advantage of the brief invincibility and distance covered with the counter.

When fight lucario BEWARE the chain grab! "the chain grab works the longest against the space animals, i can generally get them to 45% before the dthrow starts" (found on a lucario board i forget which) Lucario will try to keep falco in the air because thats where lucario dominates ( from what i've seen and read) they can literally follow you offstage with simply fair and all of them will connect because of lucario's awesome combo ability. Our best bet is use phantasm as soon as we get off stage. Of course lucario's up b is extremely gimable don't forget so if you get the chance ledgehog! Lucario will use.

Our best bet is to be patient and unpredictable. use lucario's philosophy against it. What i mean is you do the countering. Approach the lucario until at shine distance. See what it does. Our best chance of KO'ing a lucario is usmash. Why? Because lucario has nice horizontale resistance and " is weak to getting KO'd off the top of the stage"
.
The scary thing about lucario is he has alot of killing moves. These killing moves are his ftilt, double team, quick dsmash and even quicker bair. And don't forget the aurasphere. One thing to mention about the counter is that it gets stronger, not with the opponents attack but with lucario's damage. The higher lucario's damage the more knock back this moves does. Thats why we need to be unpredictable and pull out the usmash only when needed.

How do we deal with lucario? In my opinion, we play conservative. Stay on the ground and stick to short hopped aerials and keep your distance with shine. When at the ledge try to go for a one dthrow buffred dash spike. Lucario's up b is gimpable enough. We need to learn lucario's animation for his aura sphere because from what i've read lucario users are afraid of the shine but can get around it by using it only at close range where we will supposedly be to slow to react to. So we can stop it by using lasers or if you are confident let em charge up and reflect it back in their face. Please correct me and help me add. This is not as good as I want it to be and I know I am missing lots of information.

 

[Vlade]

Try to stay on the ground at all costs, because lucario's air game can tear you apart. If you are at the edge Dthrow to spike. If lucario is on 100% or higher, you have to knock him out at all costs (for obvious reasons). His tilts are fast, so try to stay out of range from lucario with your lasers and shine. When lucario is charging, blast him with lasers. If he gets close to you with a fully charged aura sphere, only think about shine because the chances are he will use it, and even if he doesnt it does some nice knockback to space you out a bit. Only go for the spike from a dthrow, and never attack from underneath lucario.

 

[Kinzer]

I can probably mention a few counters to Lucario at a distance, maybe, but anyway here I go.

For lucario's aura spheres, of course this is screaming "reflector", but you could probably also use your lazers to halt a Lucario should they try to charge one up, another option that could work is you could do some SH Phantasms when close enoguh and safe to do so in order to hit him (if you notice that if you use phantasm a little bit above the air there is less lag).

If a Lucario tries to approach you from the air, you can join him and use Nair, if you are afraid that you are too low and Lucario will do dairs, don't go in the air and shield it, afterwards roll out out of anything else that might come to or if you are feeling pretty confident follow up with a Usmash.

just trying to see if I can lend a helping hand to my fellow Falco mainers/secondaries.

 

[TheX0913]

I believe I have found a counter to Lucario's double team. It is the reflector. When lucario goes into the animation you would want to stand far away from him. Say you use your projectiles to stay out of range. Well there is a way to stay in range without fearing the counter attack. It is using the reflector. It is an ensured knockdown for lucarios and gets rid of the threat of lucario.