Match-Up Discussion #26! Mario

[BoTastic!]

We left it at 70:30 >>

Let's put it this way. A majority of the fight is going to be fought on stage. Marth has all the tools necessary to keep Mario outside his range. Mario's best attempt of getting in is probably fireball-->approach but that is easily solved with perfect shield the fireball/swatt it, an dolphin slash if Mario goes for a grab. Because Marth dominates the on-stage game so much, Mario is going to have a difficult time knocking Marth off in the first place, especially in comparison to Marth. Both of them can gimp each other pretty well so off stage game rounds out to about even(Marth just needs to space a fair, bair, or nair off stage and it's a stock down for Mario. Mario has F.L.U.D.D. and cape).

That's why it's not a 60:40 match-up for sure. It's a pretty big advantage.

I'd call it 67.5:32.5 but that's an annoying number. Imo it could go either way but I'd go with 70:30 just because I think Mario is almost equally in danger while gimping if he goes for the cape on Marth, and can get fair'd before he can aerial/cape Marth or stage spiked(though I suppose if Marth isn't careful he can get stage spiked as well).

Fludd is highly neglected. >> It's a big help in getting inside Marth's range and putting aside his Fair.

65:35

 

[Judge Judy]

This is getting pretty messy so I'm going to beak things down a bit:

Pros:

+Marth is faster in terms of actual movement, not atk speed

+Marth generally outranges Mario; although Marth outranges Mario in most cases, Mario still does have some good ranged atks such as cape and Bair

+Marth has more disjointed hitboxes; Marth has more disjointed hitboxes but don't forget that some of Mario atks are disjointed as well such as reverse Uair and cape.

Cons:

-FIHL breaks down most of Marth's aerial approaches

-Fireballs help Mario control approach and can be used for setups

-Although Marth can gimp Mario well, Mario will probably be gimping Marth more often in this match-up


This match-up is about 60:40 in Marth's favor; the main thing Marth has on Mario is range and the mobility to abuse it, still, his atks come out about the same speed as Mario's and Mario has good defensive options against Marth. As far as offstage, Mario has about as good defense as Marth does, but has better gimping tools than Marth; gimping either character won't be a walk in the park, but Mario will still be able to gimp Marth more consistently than vice-versa.

 

[HeroMystic]

This match is nowhere near 70:30.

 

[∫unk]

these mario mains are ******

 

[feardragon64]

Fludd is highly neglected. >> It's a big help in getting inside Marth's range and putting aside his Fair.

65:35

Maybe it's because I haven't played any amazing marios, but I've never seen a Mario punish a well spaced fair with F.L.U.D.D.

+Marth is faster in terms of actual movement, not atk speed

Marth's fastest aerial: fair-frame 4
Mario's fastest aerial: bair & uair ??(pretty sure it's not 4 frames, and both are outranged by Marth's fair
Not only that but combine it WITH his actual movement and aerial mobility and range-->Marth will beat mario to the punch.

+Marth generally outranges Mario; although Marth outranges Mario in most cases, Mario still does have some good ranged atks such as cape and Bair

Er....Fair outranges cape for sure. As for bair, Marth's ftilt and jab both outrange it by more than enough >>

+Marth has more disjointed hitboxes; Marth has more disjointed hitboxes but don't forget that some of Mario atks are disjointed as well such as reverse Uair and cape.

The disjointed hitboxes are.....kinda small in comparison so it won't matter that much but I guess. =\

Cons:

-FIHL breaks down most of Marth's aerial approaches

What would FIHL be? Is that the F.L.U.D.D. on aerials thing?

-Fireballs help Mario control approach and can be used for setups

I already covered this. Shield. I know it's not for spamming but if Mario approaches and Marth just shields it he can up+b the moment Mario gets in range. Including grab. Fireballs won't do much.

-Although Marth can gimp Mario well, Mario will probably be gimping Marth more often in this match-up

I already said it, Marth will be knocking Mario off the stage MUCH more. Also, Marth can gimp Mario just as well anyways. Mario's recovery is crap and all Marth has to do is hit him ONCE while he's off stage.

This match-up is about 60:40 in Marth's favor; the main thing Marth has on Mario is range and the mobility to abuse it, still, his atks come out about the same speed as Mario's and Mario has good defensive options against Marth. As far as offstage, Mario has about as good defense as Marth does, but has better gimping tools than Marth; gimping either character won't be a walk in the park, but Mario will still be able to gimp Marth more consistently than vice-versa.

Mario's gimping tools might be better but his recovery is worse. An intelligent Marth will be able to gimp an intelligent Mario and vice versa.

Seriously, I don't know how you can think this is 60:40.

 

[HeroMystic]

Maybe it's because I haven't played any amazing marios, but I've never seen a Mario punish a well spaced fair with F.L.U.D.D.

What would FIHL be? Is that the F.L.U.D.D. on aerials thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA7RZjMbgrc (0:12. Also, watch 0:25.)

 

[Judge Judy]

Marth's fastest aerial: fair-frame 4
Mario's fastest aerial: bair & uair ??(pretty sure it's not 4 frames, and both are outranged by Marth's fair
Not only that but combine it WITH his actual movement and aerial mobility and range-->Marth will beat mario to the punch.

Mario's aerial that comes out the fastest is his Nair which comes out in about 4 frames. Uair comes out in about 5 frames, Dair comes out in about 5 frames, and Bair comes out in about 6 frames.

Er....Fair outranges cape for sure.

The cape actually has the same range as Marth's Fair.

What would FIHL be? Is that the F.L.U.D.D. on aerials thing?

FLUDD Induced Hit Lag

I already covered this. Shield. I know it's not for spamming but if Mario approaches and Marth just shields it he can up+b the moment Mario gets in range. Including grab. Fireballs won't do much.

You can powershield all day but you can't force Mario to approach, you can say you can shield Falco's lasers but I'm sure that doesn't work well either.

I already said it, Marth will be knocking Mario off the stage MUCH more. Also, Marth can gimp Mario just as well anyways. Mario's recovery is crap and all Marth has to do is hit him ONCE while he's off stage.

Marth's recovery distance isn't much better than Mario's except for his sheild breaker boost which is unsafe most of the time anyway. Anyway, Mario's offstage defense is as good as Marth's.

 

[Steel]

dtilt camping destroys mario

not even joking

 

[Judge Judy]

dtilt camping destroys mario

not even joking

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[∫unk]

Dtilt destroys mario's ground game.

Destroys.

spam that shiz


just saying

dtilt camping destroys mario

not even joking

yaw n

so predictable

 

[HeroMystic]

dtilt camping destroys mario

not even joking

Cape destroys Marth.

Not even joking.

 

[feardragon64]

Cape destroys Marth.

Not even joking.

Too bad 90% of the fight is ON-STAGE isn't it?

 

[HeroMystic]

Too bad 90% of the fight is ON-STAGE isn't it?

And Mario isn't going to use Cape ON-STAGE why?

 

[Judge Judy]

And Mario isn't going to use Cape ON-STAGE why?

Isn't it obvious, all Mario mains forget how to press B while on stage.

 

[Matt07]

Too bad up B destroys Marth...everywhere.

Cape>Marth, on stage as well.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Maybe it's because I haven't played any amazing marios, but I've never seen a Mario punish a well spaced fair with F.L.U.D.D.

Yeah, play some friendlies with BO X7 at the tourney, he's amazing.


I say 65:35, BO and the other Mario mains have me convinced with FLUDD and stuff, but I think it's more than 60:40.



So yeah, we should just leave it at 65:35, since it's in between what mainers of both characters want.

 

[vato_break]

Marth Mains!
GET CAPED!

 

[Steel]

this match up isnt even relevant enough for anyone to redicuss it

 

[feardragon64]

I'm curious, how is Mario's cape ownage on stage? Ignoring the fact basically our shortest range attack(fair) goes even in terms of range with it?

Edit: Ah w/e I'll let it go.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, play some friendlies with BO X7 at the tourney, he's amazing.


I say 65:35, BO and the other Mario mains have me convinced with FLUDD and stuff, but I think it's more than 60:40.



So yeah, we should just leave it at 65:35, since it's in between what mainers of both characters want.

I'm cool with that. As long as it isn't being pushed to 70:30.

Maybe when other Marth mains start caring we can have a re-evaluation.

 

[BoTastic!]

lol its about time solid came.

Maybe when other Marth mains start caring we can have a re-evaluation

eh. Im only listening to ChaosKnight, SOLID, and Kadaj. They actually have experience against Good Marios. And i see D tilt is like the lord and savior here.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

lol its about time solid came.



eh. Im only listening to ChaosKnight, SOLID, and Kadaj. They actually have experience against Good Marios. And i see D tilt is like the lord and savior here.

Yay!! I'm credible!

Yeah, this is a hard matchup if you don't know it, if you live have practice and get the spacing down to zone Mario effectively then it gets easier. I actually have some experience in this matchup unlike most of the other ones where I go mainly off of theory.

Yeah, Dtilt is great, it can help against Mario against his shield and since it outranges cape.

Mario can juggle Marth pretty well and Marth is balls when he's above someone in the air so watch out for that, Mario's Utilt and Uair are great and I think can combo into each other at low percents, although I may be wrong...

So yeah.

 

[BoTastic!]

Dtilt isn't that much of a problem really.

Also I believe 70:30 would be possible for luigi but Not Mario. Luigi lacks the offensive and Defensive tools that Mario possesses.