Wizard Of Seraphym
Smash Cadet
Hmm... I was going to say its even because ZSS is hot, but then i saw both of them at the same time, and they are nearly equaly sexy, so so much for that new info. Slight advantage, Marth
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Match-Up Discussion #19! Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
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Megavitamins
Smash Champion
^ Don't bump topics where the less post was near 3 months ago...
some people in mbr wanted to rediscuss this, im just going to be bumping all the threads they thought necessary.
Albert.
Smash Master
hmm
to rediscuss!
how was Snakee and his current ZSS at CoT4? did his current ZSS change anyones perceptions of the match up?
to rediscuss!
how was Snakee and his current ZSS at CoT4? did his current ZSS change anyones perceptions of the match up?
i played him a lot.
id say either keep the ratio how it is or 55:45
id say either keep the ratio how it is or 55:45
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I looked through the first couple pages and just cracked up. I hope at least a few of you have changed your opinions at least slightly.
Snakeee
Smash Master
The match up is fun, and unusual for Brawl. Both characters can **** each other, and it feels almost like a different fighting game when I play it. What did you think Steel2nd?
most definitely one of the more fun match ups , its hard to slap a ra tio on to it honestly. zss can give marth a real hard time getting inside, but sometimes marth can stay on her long enough to corner her. also her items are almost uselss in this match, since marth's rush down barely gives u enough time to throw all but one of them away
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I'm gonna have to go and say that the matchup is 55-45 ZSS. Marth is like my favorite matchup atm btw.
but marth also has his perks in this matchup too. since his fair and nair out prio most of our moves we (or I) turn aggressively defensive.
Against marth Im usually the one to do the approaching. Correct me if im wrong but there are two types of marths:
Aggresive-oriented: These marths will constantly do random attacks like fairs, nairs, and dtilts everywhere for no reason. They rely on pure pressure while maintaining their spacing in the process.
Mindgame-oriented: These marths do things like bait shield drops and spotdodges then counter with their own moves. They move around just walking and doing empty SH's. They do things like "Zoning" (if that's what it's called) where they run past you then use reverse side b or reverse up b.
Against the aggro marths I constantly BAIT them do the attacking with quick laser then let them do things like fair-ing on on my shield then I immediately uairing them and continue from there. It's very hard if not impossible for Marth to space ZSS, and that's a great perk for us considering we can counter Most of his moves people can't with our OOS options and long grab.
Mindgame marth's are a slightly more challenge (53-47?
) and a more fun and active fight. It's just mostly about who can out-wit the other with better mindgames. But I still keep the OOS countering well But most marth's (including NEO), use the aggro style which works against other players but not ZSS
When it comes to edgeguarding side b hurts marth like a ***** because it's a danger for him to airdodge it because it can hamper his recovery.
The reason I say 55-45 and not something like 6/4 is because marth has advantages like pure priority. His fair can go through some of our attacks but if we use marth's strength against him we can beat him. If marth hits you or gets you "off balance" with a move like fair he's decent at keeping the pressure on from there. so it can be hard to gain the momemtum back if taken. And marth's ledge guarding game is great too against her. And marth is one of the few people that I dont really use my pieces with (im normally pretty smart and aggressive with all 3 of them) because he can catch them mid-air with his Fairs. plus he has a great glide-toss and can do some sick mindgames with them. I just go with one piece with them.
It's mostly the fact that ZSS can counter most of marth's main moves even through spacing with her quick jabs, uair, and long grab, that I believe that the matchup is defintely NOT in marth's advantage.
The things people talk about with ZSS just spamming side b and all you have to do is PS and counter is bogus. IMO side b cant even work as a "spacing move" meaning a move that is actually supposed to hurt the opponent from a distance. side b in this situation imo is a move that keeps your opponent "in-check." side b is Shield grabbable if spammed so I dont spam it. I use it WHEN NEEDED. ZSS has great up-close game besides just using SH bair by using pressure and mindgames with her dash, sidestep, jabs, and tilts and I feel that other ZSS mainers need to exploit it.
Horizonally Marth is better but when ZSS is under marth (where she should try to be) She is a strong threat. Her 4 frame uair and FF mindgames can juggle people and punish airdodges very well.
ZSS doesnt NEED to spam side b to beat marth. ZSS can counter most of marth's moves with her OOS options. Im not the type to spam side b's and lasers when not needed. The way I fight (which appears to be different from other ZSS') Im not afraid to get up-close to people so I disagree with people that say marth can **** ZSS if he gets close to her. I dont believe marth has the advantage in this matchup. My personal strategy with the aggro ones is to let him do most the attacking and counter all of his moves, While still doing the approaching. ZSS can counter marths spacing well with her moves, especially uairs. It's insane how fast it comes out.
but marth also has his perks in this matchup too. since his fair and nair out prio most of our moves we (or I) turn aggressively defensive.
Marth CAN up b out of ZSS' Jab attack and possibly her jab cancel. But that doesnt mean that Im just gonna sit there and fall for it every time. If I know that you have the capability to do that I could bait you to do it then I have a free attack.
A very wrong comment said many times in matchup discussions. ZSS CAN NOT BE EASILY EDGEHOGGED. If one finds it as easy to edgehog ZSS then you are not fighting a good one.
Against marth Im usually the one to do the approaching. Correct me if im wrong but there are two types of marths:
Aggresive-oriented: These marths will constantly do random attacks like fairs, nairs, and dtilts everywhere for no reason. They rely on pure pressure while maintaining their spacing in the process.
Mindgame-oriented: These marths do things like bait shield drops and spotdodges then counter with their own moves. They move around just walking and doing empty SH's. They do things like "Zoning" (if that's what it's called) where they run past you then use reverse side b or reverse up b.
Against the aggro marths I constantly BAIT them do the attacking with quick laser then let them do things like fair-ing on on my shield then I immediately uairing them and continue from there. It's very hard if not impossible for Marth to space ZSS, and that's a great perk for us considering we can counter Most of his moves people can't with our OOS options and long grab.
Mindgame marth's are a slightly more challenge (53-47?
) and a more fun and active fight. It's just mostly about who can out-wit the other with better mindgames. But I still keep the OOS countering well But most marth's (including NEO), use the aggro style which works against other players but not ZSSWhen it comes to edgeguarding side b hurts marth like a ***** because it's a danger for him to airdodge it because it can hamper his recovery.
The reason I say 55-45 and not something like 6/4 is because marth has advantages like pure priority. His fair can go through some of our attacks but if we use marth's strength against him we can beat him. If marth hits you or gets you "off balance" with a move like fair he's decent at keeping the pressure on from there. so it can be hard to gain the momemtum back if taken. And marth's ledge guarding game is great too against her. And marth is one of the few people that I dont really use my pieces with (im normally pretty smart and aggressive with all 3 of them) because he can catch them mid-air with his Fairs. plus he has a great glide-toss and can do some sick mindgames with them. I just go with one piece with them.
It's mostly the fact that ZSS can counter most of marth's main moves even through spacing with her quick jabs, uair, and long grab, that I believe that the matchup is defintely NOT in marth's advantage.
The things people talk about with ZSS just spamming side b and all you have to do is PS and counter is bogus. IMO side b cant even work as a "spacing move" meaning a move that is actually supposed to hurt the opponent from a distance. side b in this situation imo is a move that keeps your opponent "in-check." side b is Shield grabbable if spammed so I dont spam it. I use it WHEN NEEDED. ZSS has great up-close game besides just using SH bair by using pressure and mindgames with her dash, sidestep, jabs, and tilts and I feel that other ZSS mainers need to exploit it.
Like I said before I disagree with this. Yes ZSS is put into defensive up close but that doesnt mean that she's at a disadvantage. ZSS can counter most of Marths moves. being AGGRESSIVELY defensive and countering any opening with her fast moves OOS is the best strategy in this matchup imo.
Uair...It's her best move. NOT side b.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
EDIT: wrong thread. disregard...
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Oh, I see. Didnt notice lol. My bad. Though my opinion on the matchup still stands though.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
If you're gimping ZSS, you're either MK or the ZSS is a weak player.
I say this match is even, especially if the ZSS knows how to control space with special moves and one armor piece. Seriously, you can get one stock off any given player with just one piece of armor if you know how to control space with it and special moves. After that, I normally get another 50-80% before losing the piece, even against CO's top players.
If he gets in on your space, he can mess you up pretty badly, but given Brawl's defensive nature, "pretty badly" is like... 20-30%. The game's mechanics favor ZSS zoning over Marth rushing down.
That's not to say she has the advantage. Tipper fsmash kills too early (especially without reaction DI), and Marth has much more room for error than ZSS. Still, at high level, I'd say it's even. Good ZSS players can zone and space exceptionally well, but good Marth players should know how to get by the BS. Both characters have the necessary tools, it's dependant on how well the players utilize them.
I say this match is even, especially if the ZSS knows how to control space with special moves and one armor piece. Seriously, you can get one stock off any given player with just one piece of armor if you know how to control space with it and special moves. After that, I normally get another 50-80% before losing the piece, even against CO's top players.
If he gets in on your space, he can mess you up pretty badly, but given Brawl's defensive nature, "pretty badly" is like... 20-30%. The game's mechanics favor ZSS zoning over Marth rushing down.
That's not to say she has the advantage. Tipper fsmash kills too early (especially without reaction DI), and Marth has much more room for error than ZSS. Still, at high level, I'd say it's even. Good ZSS players can zone and space exceptionally well, but good Marth players should know how to get by the BS. Both characters have the necessary tools, it's dependant on how well the players utilize them.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
Lol, are you sure? When I face a ZSS, that armor is more of a liability and an annoyance than anything. Sure, you may get in a few hits with it a few times, but get ahold of a piece and the ZSS will regret not getting rid of the armor in the first place (Glide toss + any special = GTFO). SHairdodge, Shfair, or jab should take care of glide tosses. Her approaches arent very hard to read (whip, stun shot, dash attack) and its just a matter of getting up close. The matchup is rather even because its hard, but not impossible, to get in close to ZSS and the armor is hardly a decisive factor.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Yea Marth Is one of the people that can defend himself from the pieces well by his constant fairs catching or deflecting pieces. But with one piece I can do things like throw them down or forward after shielding your attacks. people who know how to use the pieces well with ZSS can counter like any movement (airdodge, attack, roll) with her pieces by mindgaming people into doing such things. If marth keeps his spacing up at all times, he should have less of a problem dealing with the pieces.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Here's a protip:
Treat the armor like an upper. Marth wants to get in and try to mess with you? Fine. Shield his attack, toss the armor oos. Works against virtually everything. You can zone the hell out of him if he wants to stay back, too. Side-b, stunshot, and armor are all you need if you can operate properly. Granted, if he gets a piece of armor, you might be in trouble.
Treat the armor like an upper. Marth wants to get in and try to mess with you? Fine. Shield his attack, toss the armor oos. Works against virtually everything. You can zone the hell out of him if he wants to stay back, too. Side-b, stunshot, and armor are all you need if you can operate properly. Granted, if he gets a piece of armor, you might be in trouble.
Marth and ZSS are my 2 best characters so here's my opinion, even though i'm not very experienced in the tourney world.
A good marth can space around many of ZSS attacks once he manages to get in range. However an error in spacing can lead to a gtfo jab or if you really mess up a paralyzing dsmash, which then gives ZSS a huge advantage. Although marth has an excellent air game it is not good enough to beat ZSS. A good ZSS loves an aerial/ juggling game. If u find yourself about ZSS your going to have a hard time getting back on your feet. Although an air game is not impossible for marth, it's not going to be easy. Another advantage (which some may not find viable) is the fact that there are fewer ZSS who know what they are doing. Although u can argue that most marth players suck, there are so many more marth players that the ZSS will have more practice in this match up then the marth.
I'd say that this match is 50:50 because both characters have an equal opportunity to switch the tides of battle in their favor, but neither of them has any one way wich will give them an easy stock.
sorry for the wall of text. =] and sorry if i am bumping this thread unnecessarily, I was reading through the match up threads because i have my first real tourney on sunday and i wanted to make sure i knew all of marth and ZSS' match ups perfectly
A good marth can space around many of ZSS attacks once he manages to get in range. However an error in spacing can lead to a gtfo jab or if you really mess up a paralyzing dsmash, which then gives ZSS a huge advantage. Although marth has an excellent air game it is not good enough to beat ZSS. A good ZSS loves an aerial/ juggling game. If u find yourself about ZSS your going to have a hard time getting back on your feet. Although an air game is not impossible for marth, it's not going to be easy. Another advantage (which some may not find viable) is the fact that there are fewer ZSS who know what they are doing. Although u can argue that most marth players suck, there are so many more marth players that the ZSS will have more practice in this match up then the marth.
I'd say that this match is 50:50 because both characters have an equal opportunity to switch the tides of battle in their favor, but neither of them has any one way wich will give them an easy stock.
sorry for the wall of text. =] and sorry if i am bumping this thread unnecessarily, I was reading through the match up threads because i have my first real tourney on sunday and i wanted to make sure i knew all of marth and ZSS' match ups perfectly
M4ge
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
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Anyway, I played this guy's ZSS offline. Main things to watch out for in this matchup are dsmash and uair. Uair is gay, you can get juggled for a while if you get caught up in it. Dsmash leads to a whole crapload of options so that's another annoying thing to look out for. At high percents, the ZSS will probably try to kill with SH bair, Fspecial, and Dsmash to w/e. Careful when trying to gimp her, she can shoot that laser at you while she recovers, reversing the whole situation if you get hit with it.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Just to let you know, we have a new thread for ZSS match-up discussion =x
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241268
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241268
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Maybe Steel or Virg should lock these one a re-discussion occurs...
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