Match-Up Discussion #11! Toon Link

[TheJerm]

Actually take, I would space those fairs vs us. But yea, the fast fall fairs work really well against. Doesnt give us many options unless we perfect shield.

 

[KRiMz0N]

Actually take, I would space those fairs vs us. But yea, the fast fall fairs work really well against. Doesnt give us many options unless we perfect shield.

and if that's the case we can just dtilt out of it teehee

 

[Remzi]

I fair a lot against TL, zair is so ridiculously easy to PS, it's not that much of a threat unless you are jumping into him when he is already in the air. Once you are inside, just zone with dtilt and fair until he is at kill percents. It's a pretty straightforward matchup once you learn his projectile patterns and what not.

 

[takeurlife2]

I fair a lot against TL, zair is so ridiculously easy to PS, it's not that much of a threat unless you are jumping into him when he is already in the air. Once you are inside, just zone with dtilt and fair until he is at kill percents. It's a pretty straightforward matchup once you learn his projectile patterns and what not.

... what game are you playing?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I fair a lot against TL, zair is so ridiculously easy to PS, it's not that much of a threat unless you are jumping into him when he is already in the air. Once you are inside, just zone with dtilt and fair until he is at kill percents. It's a pretty straightforward matchup once you learn his projectile patterns and what not.

I don't get it every time you fair wouldn't you just eat a zair to the face?

 

[TheJerm]

I fair a lot against TL, zair is so ridiculously easy to PS, it's not that much of a threat unless you are jumping into him when he is already in the air. Once you are inside, just zone with dtilt and fair until he is at kill percents. It's a pretty straightforward matchup once you learn his projectile patterns and what not.

Trust me, its not that easy..

 

[Remzi]

Take: I'll wait for an actual response before I waste my breath

Jerm: Oversimplification, i know, but thats the general plan.

Legendary: No, like I said I'm not gonna go for a fair if he isn't grounded, besides a few scenarios, doing that is just stupid. If he is in the air I'll wait for the action, which is usually a zair when he is trying to zone, then shield and punish. It's real easy to PS because of how telegraphed it is (ESPECIALLY if they AD before it). If he is on the ground ill pressure with dtilt or fair.

I'll go real in depth if need be, I have a shi*load of experience in this matchup.

 

[takeurlife2]

Take: I'll wait for an actual response before I waste my breath

Jerm: Oversimplification, i know, but thats the general plan.

Legendary: No, like I said I'm not gonna go for a fair if he isn't grounded, besides a few scenarios, doing that is just stupid. If he is in the air I'll wait for the action, which is usually a zair when he is trying to zone, then shield and punish. It's real easy to PS because of how telegraphed it is (ESPECIALLY if they AD before it). If he is on the ground ill pressure with dtilt or fair.

I'll go real in depth if need be, I have a shi*load of experience in this matchup.

How is something that has like a 20 frame window telegraphed? He can zair from ANY point in the airdoge, or just arrow on landing to hit you in the face for reacting too quickly. AND if you react too slowly, he will just jump again and reset the problem.

Im telling you man, you don't give toon enough credit where credit is due.

 

[∫unk]

"I fair a lot against TL, zair is so ridiculously easy to PS, it's not that much of a threat unless you are jumping into him when he is already in the air. Once you are inside, just zone with dtilt and fair until he is at kill percents. It's a pretty straightforward matchup once you learn his projectile patterns and what not."

...please go into detail for the matchup then because this statement screams inexperience. by the way what toon link are you playing for this matchup experience? if its someone without at least a decent tournament record its moot point

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Take: I'll wait for an actual response before I waste my breath

Jerm: Oversimplification, i know, but thats the general plan.

Legendary: No, like I said I'm not gonna go for a fair if he isn't grounded, besides a few scenarios, doing that is just stupid. If he is in the air I'll wait for the action, which is usually a zair when he is trying to zone, then shield and punish. It's real easy to PS because of how telegraphed it is (ESPECIALLY if they AD before it). If he is on the ground ill pressure with dtilt or fair.

I'll go real in depth if need be, I have a shi*load of experience in this matchup.

TLink is like this little hyper active jumping bean that just bounces around through out his aerials. Then you have to worry about him QAD. Like take has stated. Then he can also play mind games especially if he has a bomb. Your breakdown of the match up is extremely short sided. Fair can **** him just like it ***** most of the cast. I think think approaching TLink and dealing with his jectiles is like dealing with Falco.

 

[Remzi]

My take on the matchup-

Long Range:

TL dominates with projectiles, Marth's only option is to try and close the gap. This is one of TLs two optimal positions in the matchup (I'll talk about the other later) as he is at no risk and can rack up damage or even setup kills. Boomerang and arrows should be easy to PS or swat, bombs are a little tougher to get through. Try not to let the boomerang get behind you, because it can lead to some nasty setups on the way back. Your best bet is to walk > shield everything until you reach Marth's favorite position in this matchup, tipper range.

Advantage- Toon Link

Tipper Range:

This would be the "green zone" that Steel described in the zones thread. At this range; dtilt, fair, jab, nair, and DB are all viable while his only option that doesn't put him in too much danger is zair. While zair does beat out all of Marth's options in terms of range, it isn't difficult to defend against. If he jumps and airdodges, be ready to shield or PS and immediately punish. Zair autocancels, so if he zairs right before landing your best option is a dtilt (or grab if he is close enough). He will either eat the dtilt which you can follow up on, or he will shield it. I think we all know how the dtilt trap works so I won't go into that. If they zair earlier in the jump and you shield it, DB or fair are your best punishers. Another thing about zair, if your opponent tends to zair without airdodging, you can ftilt or jab before the zair comes out. While zair is his safest option, TL can also nair and weave back out. Not totally safe, but it's a great setup if it connects. If TL SH nairs, be ready for an arrow cancel as he lands. If he is grounded, you can SHFair, SHDFair, SHFFFair, dtilt, or use a DB1 mixup. Any of these will work so long as they are well spaced. Most TLs won't attempt to shield grab your fairs, but if they do tend to try it just buffer a roll and punish with usmash. If during any time in this situation he has a bomb in hand you'll need to watch out. TL will undoubtedly try one of two things when Marth has him around tipper range: retreat or get inside Marth's range. If he has a bomb in hand, it's difficult to stop him from getting some space. He will find his first oppurtunity to either jump back and toss it in your face or JC a backwards bomb throw. Try to PS the bomb and get back inside on him, if that doesn't happen you'll have to get through his projectile walls again. If he doesn't have a bomb, he might try a retreating fair, nair, or zair to give him self some space. The first two will probably end with an arrow cancel as he lands so be weary of that. None of those options are fool-proof, any of your anti air moves should take care of it if you react fast enough (jab, nair, etc). He may also try to get inside your sword range instead of retreating, if this is the case you should move back with retreating fairs and do all you can to keep him at bay, because if he gets you at pointblank range, it can be troublesome.

Advantage- Marth

Point Blank Range:
You may have read a thread about "Boxing" by Pierce7d in the Tactical Discussion Forum. If you have, you'd know that one of Marth's weakpoints is fighting at point blank range, this also happens to be one of TL's strongpoints. His bair and utilt can combo extremely well, his jab is great from close range, and to top it off he has the best spot dodge in the game. The good thing is that moves like TL's jab are extremely risky against Marth unless used to punish because his OoS punishing game is so good. However, you may eat a bair/utilt chain if he catches you in the air so try not to expose yourself. You shouldn't find yourself in this situation very often if you are spacing well. And it isn't very difficult to get out either.

Advantage- Toon Link

TL above Marth:

While juggling is usually one of Marth's best options, TL has the tools to make juggling him very difficult. When he is above you, expect him to rain down some bombs on you. If you are on the ground and he is throwing down bombs, there is pretty much nothing you can do. So if you see him plucking out a bomb try going up high after him, if he tries to throw the bomb down at you and you are close enough, you'll both take damage and you can uair immediately out of hitstun without him really being able to do anything about it. You can try and hit the bomb with the tip of your sword as well, if you are successful the explosion won't reach you and only he will take damage, thats a bit difficult to do though so don't rely on it. If you'd rather not risk taking the fight high into the air, you can just defend yourself from the bombs until he lands and continue the fight that way. If you are at a stage with platforms when he is above you, then his options are much more limited. Like at BF for example, if you just wait under the central platform until he gets close you can setup a quick juggle trap. A quick note; TL is extremely floaty, so he is able to stay in the air for much longer than most characters. If you do something stupid like whiff an uair while you are below him, he might dair you. Otherwise dair isn't really a threat, in fact you should try and bait it if possible since it has considerable cooldown.

Advantage- None

Marth above TL:

This is TL's other favorite scenario that I talked about earlier. Being probably Marth's worst situation in general, TL has a field day when Marth is above him. TL, similarly to Marth, struggles with killing, but having Marth above him can lead to quite a few setups that serve as a nice remedy to his killing problems. He can SH and throw a bomb up, if the bomb hits, Marth takes damage and is still in the air. If Marth airdodges the bomb, TL can punish the lag with a powerful uair. He can also throw two bombs in the air to make it even more difficult for Marth to land safely. When you are in this position as Marth, your best option is to make your way to a ledge. Marth isn't great on the ledge either but it's better than being stuck above him.

Advantage- Toon Link

TL Offstage/On Ledge:

When TL is off stage Marth has a lot of oppurtunities to gimp TL or at least deal damage. If he is recovering low enough, you can drop down and counter his up B. Another option when he is recovering low is to grab the ledge and force him onto the stage where you can get a free ledgehop aerial of your choice. If he recovers mid-high, you can go out with a fair, bair, or nair if they like to airdodge. If he pulls out a bomb just get close enough to him that the bomb won't be effective. It is possible to spike him out of his up B, I actually do it pretty often while hanging on the ledge. When he is on the ledge, he can't really get up safely without somehow incorporating his projectiles. He can pull out bombs or throw a boomerang to give himself some time to get up safely. Expect some zair stalling on the ledge, remember that he can regrab the ledge via zair three times before landing on stage. While he is grabbed onto the ledge, you want to stay about a dtilt's length away from the ledge so you have adequate space to punish all of his options without putting yourself in danger.

Advantage- Marth

Marth Offstage/On ledge:

Like usual, always DI up because when you are forced to recover low, your options are extremely limited and easy to read. He can pretty much toss out any projectile at you and they all work well. This is another great oppurtunity for TL to setup traps; if you have to airdodge a projectile he can punish the lag with a nair or fair which will likely kill you. He can also do bomb drops and what not around where he expects you to DS so try to mix it up. You can DS stage spike him if he is reckless so take advantage of an oppurtunity to do so if it shows itself. Make sure your DS has enough height to get you on stage, because he can easily regain invincibility with zair. He gets a free ledgehopped fair if you land onstage with him on the ledge but its better than death. When on the ledge, ledge drop fairs are a great way to clear yourself some room to get on the stage safely. Any of your other options besides ledge jumps (below 100%) may be punished. And even ledgejumps may stick you in a bad situation.
Advantage- Toon Link

Killing:

Both characters share the same fatal flaw, the lack of safe kill moves. As Marth, you'll be trying to force him off stage constantly as that is where your easiest kills will come from. A fresh bair off stage will usually kill quite early depending on the position and he doesn't have many options to combat it. Again, nair off stage is an excellent option against opponents who like to airdodge off stage. On stage, your best kill move is probably dsmash. If you PS something you usually have enough time to connect a dsmash. From TL's standpoint, most kills will come from projectile setups or gimps. Bombs and boomerangs give enough hitstun to let TL deliver a hyphen smash if Marth is close enough. Off stage, as I went over before TL will attempt to setup traps to force you into a situation where you have to eat a fair. I'm not gonna keep mentioning things here that I already mentioned in other sections so I'll just wrap this up here.

Advantage- None


Overall: Even though TL has more seperate advantages, the majority of the match will be with Marth in TL's face but just out of TL's sword range. This is wher Marth thrives the most.

Rating: 55:45 or 60:40 Marth

Junk, to answer your question: The two TLs I've played most are Ashraf23 who I know personally and is a very smart player, and Lobos (on wi-fi but we have blue connection so it counts for something). Lobos is known as the best TL in MD/VA and both are excellent players IMO.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I saw your Match vs that guy you named. You didn't PS anything. Maybe at most 2o f his attacks throughout the match. But i'll give you the benefit of the doubt since that was in December. Also I don't think you should get into the habit of trying to time when they air dodge. I also don't think you want to play at tipper range. You may claim that the advantage is Marth's however all TLink needs to do is a retreating zair and you're stuck trying to PS while he easily gets out of your range and starts take advantage of the extra space. I would play Tlink like falco but that's just me.

 

[Steel]

Come on, dude.

Don't debate with Bengals when you obviously haven't a clue what you're talking about. You completely contradicted yourself too.

You basically said "don't zone him" but then you said "play it like Falco." How the hell are you playing vs Falco then? Standing around shielding lasers? You play falco by getting inside his lasers and attacking at TIPPER RANGE. Why would you not want to use Marth's greatest strength which is his range?

And Tink's retreating zair isn't nearly as effective as you think it is.

TINKS ZAIR

SO DAMAGING

SETS UP FOR SO MUCH STUFF

BROKEN

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Come on, dude.

Don't debate with Bengals when you obviously haven't a clue what you're talking about. You completely contradicted yourself too.

You basically said "don't zone him" but then you said "play it like Falco." How the hell are you playing vs Falco then? Standing around shielding lasers? You play falco by getting inside his lasers and attacking at TIPPER RANGE. Why would you not want to use Marth's greatest strength which is his range?

And Tink's retreating zair isn't nearly as effective as you think it is.

TINKS ZAIR

SO DAMAGING

SETS UP FOR SO MUCH STUFF

BROKEN

Maybe I should have said approaching. I never said Tlink Zair was heavy for damage but it is a good spacing tool that out ranges all of your attacks. In stead of staying at tipper range where he can easily get out of you should stay a little closer in and cut off more of his options . Tlinks Zair does set up into combos so stupid being a douche.

 

[Steel]

It's a spacing tool. It's one option that sets up for nothing, occasionally a dash attack. It doesn't beat Marth at all. Also he doesn't have any options when you're at tipper range except running away. If you're closer he can hit you with something more than zair.

 

[Santi]

I might even give Marth the PointBlank Range advantage.

Swordance, Ftilt, Dtilt and any aerial out of shield.

It's close though.

 

[Steel]

regardless, toon link can hit marth there. not where marth wants to be.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There are no options that Marth takes away when he is closer to TL that he doesn't already take away at tipper range.

So why not stay at tipper range so you get the benefit of your full range and damage?

 

[Steel]

cyan 2x hit combo

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There are no options that Marth takes away when he is closer to TL that he doesn't already take away at tipper range.

So why not stay at tipper range so you get the benefit of your full range and damage?

Because you don't want Tlink to start camping with his projectiles. You also want to get to a spot where you sword at max potential and limit his options. Also factor in that tipping won't always leading into a full up. I don't think just staying at tipper range would be ideal.

 

[Santi]

There are no options that Marth takes away when he is closer to TL that he doesn't already take away at tipper range.

So why not stay at tipper range so you get the benefit of your full range and damage?

I still feel that being in the TL's face puts a lot of pressure on them.
Sure Marth might still take away the same number of options as he would at tipper range.

But why not be closed in where you still have options and the TL has less options then he would at tipper range?

 

[Steel]

we don't have any safe options though

we're also not in a safe position

 

[Santi]

we don't have any safe options though

we're also not in a safe position

Your a lot safer than you would be at tipper range where our zair is more effective.
And all our projectiles can be spaced.

TL is a lot more in danger close to Marth then Marth is in danger being close to TL.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tipping will almost never lead to any sort of follow up due to the games engine.

You WILL get more damage and stay safer though.

 

[Santi]

Tipping will almost never lead to any sort of follow up due to the games engine.

You WILL get more damage and stay safer though.

Try tipping everything against a TL.
You will just get baited and forced into commiting into something.
Then get punished.
And you can't recover quickly enough because of the games engine

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Tipping will almost never lead to any sort of follow up due to the games engine.

You WILL get more damage and stay safer though.

If you play it better safe than sorry you going to end up sorry......Yeah playing it safe is cool sometimes you have to get out of your routines in order to do even better than expected.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth commits to fairs and d-tilts?

Since when?

Marth definitely wins up close. The raw frame data and looking at their range means this isn't even a question.

The only reason I can see for Marth to get closer to TL is well...to scare him and make him FEEL like he NEEDS to get away because he is being suffocated and he really has nothing up close.

 

[Santi]

Marth commits to fairs and d-tilts?

Since when?

Since Airdodge into zair autocancels

its tooooo fast.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Marth commits to fairs and d-tilts?

Since when?

Marth definitely wins up close. The raw frame data and looking at their range means this isn't even a question.

The only reason I can see for Marth to get closer to TL is well...to scare him and make him FEEL like he NEEDS to get away because he is being suffocated and he really has nothing up close.

So wouldn't that even more a greater advantage for you since your opponent is scrambling for options? You are putting pressure on him as opposed to staying at tipper range. Cut off their options while increasing yours seems pretty effective and being able to apply pressure seems like a sound strategy to winning.

 

[phi1ny3]

except tink has some pretty decent options more or less with that utilt, jab, and spotdodge, as well as nice oos options, imo. The game kind of stales at up close.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's not Marth committing to anything.

That's more of Tink abusing a property of his moves.

But this is just arguing minor technicalities.

It does nothing for the match-up.

For the record has anyone actually said anything that wasn't already known i.e Tink will seek to camp and control the match through projectiles while Marth will seek to zone with his moves and punish mistake. Tink will use Zair to try to escape Marth's control, but overall the nod goes to Marth since it's not too hard for him to close in and stay in control.

Generally Marth has more/better options and Tink can't limit Marth as well as Marth limits him.

 

[-Tempest-]

As much as I hate to, I have to agree.

I hate fighting Marth with Toon Link. I can't seem to do anything about him if he closes in, and I have trouble keeping him out.

What should I do?

 

[∫unk]

hmm all i can say is i thought i was supposed to be at tipper range

so i do that vs santi

and i get z-air combos up the *** (it feels like it limits me to only tip f-air)

then i try to stay outside the z-air range

and i get projectiles up the ***

next time im just going to be close

lol toon link might have a worse boxing game than marth

 

[phi1ny3]

That's not Marth committing to anything.
Oh by all means, marth has nice frame trap/ flow at this point. Where did that come up anywhere in my post?

That's more of Tink abusing a property of his moves.
Yes, and by all means, that's what we need to consider as well, considering this is how to fight TL, not how to **** him.
But this is just arguing minor technicalities.
I see this happen all the time in matchup discussions. It may not always be necessary, but it sometimes helps to know what you're up against.
It does nothing for the match-up.
I kind of agree, only because of the fact that these things seem kind of overshadowed by marth's punishing options and good moves in this situation.
For the record has anyone actually said anything that wasn't already known i.e Tink will seek to camp and control the match through projectiles while Marth will seek to zone with his moves and punish mistake. Tink will use Zair to try to escape Marth's control, but overall the nod goes to Marth since it's not too hard for him to close in and stay in control.
That was pretty much already known, for the record, almost a summary of what the match will come down to. That's naturally what happens when you brutally flog a discussion like this with pinpoint accuracy that these boards are known to do with the matchup discussions (for the record, that's a good thing). Wow, I felt like this stuff was already discussed, and therefore pointless. Tangent, tangent tangent (this is Phil's head speaking)
Generally Marth has more/better options and Tink can't limit Marth as well as Marth limits him.

^See above.

 

[takeurlife2]

hmm all i can say is i thought i was supposed to be at tipper range

so i do that vs santi

and i get z-air combos up the *** (it feels like it limits me to only tip f-air)

then i try to stay outside the z-air range

and i get projectiles up the ***

next time im just going to be close

lol toon link might have a worse boxing game than marth

FROM EXPERIENCE, i say it's an easier matchup if you make it a "boxing game"

db1 and jab moar, amirite junk? =p

 

[TheJerm]

Whats this boxing game? lol Back and forth hits?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Some nonsensical term that Pierce came up with that just means trying lock your opponent down with a mix of normals and special moves.

It's really just zoning, but he swears up and down that it's different.

 

[PK-ow!]

Some nonsensical term that Pierce came up with that just means trying lock your opponent down with a mix of normals and special moves.

It's really just zoning, but he swears up and down that it's different.

It's 'zoning' if zoning encompasses everything in the game having to do with where you are and your opponent is.

I don't think zoning is that broad though.

Boxing, if I read him right, is an exchange between character's quickest attacks, shields, grabs, and spot dodges, in a position where all other attack options reduce to "stronger than jab" and every other option is, while a valid mixup, significantly high-risk, if the opponent recognizes the situation as such.

It's a dynamic - apparently characteristically arising at point blank range, but, also if I read him right, he doesn't want to define it that way - that must be understood in terms of those restricted options.
The reason for believing the situation exists (i.e., "boxing" refers,) would be that, when analyzed as such, a specific science can be applied to a character's game in 'the boxing' scenario. EDIT: I mean, in like the same way 'chemicals' are believed to exist because a science more specific than physics - chemistry - is actually successful in a way physics isn't on its own. EDIT2: Even though chemistry does theoretically reduce to physics.

But maybe you should ask him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He made things far more complicated then they had to be IMO and he didn't really talk about anything new or that wasn't known.

It seems to me like he actually combined several concepts to come up with this one.

 

[Junk DGH]

calm down and go to bed lol wtf its only 1am over here and i dont want to be up

ur neighbor is probably wakin up for his morning jog