Mass Effect (King Maker) - Glorious Way to End the Day. Mafia Wins!

[Death Bear]

(although I would have preferred Kary's slot yesterDay, and I said as much in thread), and I'm glad to have that question mark gone, ultimately.

.[/QUOTE]

yeah that HAM mode post you had pushing Ran wa....
wait a second

 

[Death Bear]

(although I would have preferred Kary's slot yesterDay, and I said as much in thread), and I'm glad to have that question mark gone, ultimately.

Relevance by way of post for the above ^

 

[Jerkus]

Jerkus, you seem to be ignoring the fact that ryker scum could win as we seem to be in mylo/lylo at the moment

What makes you say that? It's only mylo right now if we assume three scum. In a normal game, three scum would be an acceptable number for a game this size. But in a Kingmaker setup, two scum makes more sense, specifically because there's a chance that a member of the mafia could be made King at least one time throughout the course of the game. It would be extremely pour game design for town to be able to lose on D3 because the Kingmaker made the wrong call. MASTERMIND IS NOT CLEAR. Two assassins is typical in a Kingmaker setup.

And I'm town reading Bardull because I just know Bardull. This is townBardull. He's a player that naturally tends to draw ire from other players due to his style and sometimes lack of interest, but this is not his scum game.

He could be playing me, and I'll shake his hand at the end of the game if he is. But he's towntelling to me, and I haven't seen many legitimate arguments presented to make me change my mind about what I'm seeing from him.

 

[BSP]

Remember that Omni got modkilled. If that didn't happen, the earliest Town could lose assuming a 3 man is toMorrow.

 

[Jerkus]

Also, get over the stupid HAM ****. You're way too fixated on that. It means nothing.

Stop being wrong about my slot.

Just.

UGH.

 

[BSP]

I was wrong on Soup, but I was also doubting my read. I absolutely own the fact that I was after his shot (although I would have preferred Kary's slot yesterDay, and I said as much in thread), and I'm glad to have that question mark gone, ultimately.

Soup was a question mark?

 

[Jerkus]

Remember that Omni got modkilled. If that didn't happen, the earliest Town could lose assuming a 3 man is toMorrow.

Fair point.

 

[Jerkus]

Soup was a question mark?

I was going back and forth on him, if you recall. I was debating between a couple different avenues leading to scum—Mastermind scum with Hando and Soup scum with Kary or possibly Omni earlier.

 

[Death Bear]

I woudnt have to have a scum read on your slot

If i didnt think you were acting scummy

 

[Death Bear]

Hey Ruy here.

Jerkus do you have a game reference to show 2 scum vs 3 scum? Or is it theory in with how Kingmaker works? I can see 3 scum working in this depending on roles people can't claim.

Also Omni is a tool.

eanut:

 

[Death Bear]

anywho, some people have mentioned Deitz, im not sold on it , BSP what do you think about MM posted wrt Deitz and whats your feel on him, earlier you agreed he was matching some of his BAM meta, so you leaning town on him or has something changed your mind ?

 

[BSP]

And I'm town reading Bardull because I just know Bardull. This is townBardull. He's a player that naturally tends to draw ire from other players due to his style and sometimes lack of interest, but this is not his scum game.

This is not good enough. We're in a potential MyLo, yet you're still willing to let Bardull get by on meta alone. If I could make a wall on his slot, there has been something suspicious in his play.

Meh, I really don't need Bardull's direction. I'll just name my team prediction in a bit. It's pretty close to Death Bear's.

 

[Mastermind]

Remember that Omni got modkilled. If that didn't happen, the earliest Town could lose assuming a 3 man is toMorrow.

Fair point.

So what does that change for you?

Cuz I ain't gon' lie, I can't tell if you're just not paying attention anymore (you sure as hell didn't miss the Omni modkill) or are scum desperately tryin' to unwrangle a clear. At the same time there is really no benefit in doing so, particularly when we're in mylo where I have the gun, which makes me lean away from that thought. ****in' WIFOM tho.

Regardless, a three man team with perfect scum play wouldn't win until D5 if not for Omni's modkill. That is late if anything, but probably just right given the possibility of scum avec du gun. Two man team is freaking preposterous. They'd have won on, what, like D7 or some ****?

 

[Jerkus]

No ****.

But everything you think is scummy about my slot is stupid. Your whole argument against me is essentially "I think you should have taken firmer stances on things and pushed your reads harder and I don't like that you were gone for a few days."

Get over it. I wasn't sure on Soup, so I changed my mind on him a few times. I'm still kind of glad he's gone, though Day 2 obviously could have gone better. That was me, as town, trying to be transparent about my reads and searching for the right path. You can spin it as wishy-washy scum if you want to, but to do so requires you to be wearing blinders. There are other options; you're just not seeing them.

I could have fought against the Dabuz lynch harder, but that's the definition of splitting hairs. I made my position very clear, multiple times, and I wasn't the one doing the executing. The Dabuz haters got their way despite me. That happens. It's not my fault.

Jerkus do you have a game reference to show 2 scum vs 3 scum? Or is it theory in with how Kingmaker works? I can see 3 scum working in this depending on roles people can't claim.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Kingmaker_(game)

The base Kingmaker setup involves two assassins, not three. Granted, the size of the game isn't explicitly states in that link, so more assassins could potentially be necessary in larger games. But I think two could still be appropriate here. Admittedly, I didn't account for the fact that Omni was modkilled, which normally shouldn't happen. However, we also had a Weak Doctor in the game (Dabuz), which is a role that could have resulted in essentially the same scenario, since a Weak Doctor dies if it targets scum at Night.

I standby two scum being the most likely scenario.

 

[Jerkus]

That whole post was directed at Death Bear, by the way. The first part was to his 2169.

 

[Death Bear]

no, my whole argument is your scum and should die.

 

[Mastermind]

Just crunched the math, 2man scumteam with perfect play and no assistance in the way of luck can't win until D7.

The very idea is lunacy.

 

[Jerkus]

Regardless, a three man team with perfect scum play wouldn't win until D5 if not for Omni's modkill. That is late if anything, but probably just right given the possibility of scum avec du gun. Two man team is freaking preposterous. They'd have won on, what, like D7 or some ****?

Three scum is more preposterous.

Assume 10 town vs. 3 scum

Town mislynches D1, scum kills townie N1. 8v3

Town mislynches again on D2, scum kills townie and, worst case scenario, Weak Doctor targets scum N2. 5v3

Kingmaker kings scum on D3. Scum automatically win.

That's a terrible setup. As a general rule of thumb (Marshy taught me this), town should always have as many Day phases to lynch scum, in a worst case scenario, as there are scum to be lynched. If there a three scum in this game, and town is capable of automatically losing on D3, then that's unbalanced.

 

[Jerkus]

no, my whole argument is your scum and should die.

I'm done talking to you. Let me know when you're more intelligent half feels like playing this game properly.

 

[Death Bear]

Jerkus, you say there are alternatives and what do you give me ?

MM: could win in a 3 man game by tommorow as scum king
Ran: barely substantiated read
Hando: i want him gone too, i'll read your blurb on him and see what i thin, then maybe we can work together.
Bardulltown: null town is the most you should give off meta , not entirely buying your reasoning there

 

[BSP]

Let's stop with the setup speculation and just name scum.

 

[Death Bear]

MM, what happened to Hando ?

Why has he moved off your to die list ?

 

[Mastermind]

But D3 is still a dayphase in your example. It's just not one that the town got to control because the Weak Doctor and Kingmaker both got duped by good scumplay and, well, that's just too ****in' bad. Why would you balance against good play? What about the fact that the Doc can stop kills?

Starting to think you're scrumbling

 

[Jerkus]

Jerkus, you say there are alternatives and what do you give me ?

MM: could win in a 3 man game by tommorow as scum king

No, MM could win the game RIGHT NOW if he's scum with two buddies. But he doesn't have two buddies. He has one.

Bardulltown: null town is the most you should give off meta , not entirely buying your reasoning there

If you can give me a better reason to change my mind than "he's not as active as I think he should be and he isn't leading the game," I'll be impressed.

 

[Mastermind]

Death Bear, literally what drugs are you on. At what point did I say Hando was off the die list?

 

[Death Bear]

Which head of MM are you ?

 

[Mastermind]

Wouldn't youuuu like to know

(ee)

 

[Mastermind]

**** you, caps filter

and **** you two, 30 seconds between quick replies filter

 

[Death Bear]

Jerkus should die if only because any scum team not involving them would have killed them by now.

Same loosely applies to MM but they were so irrelevant they weren't a threat till now

 

[Death Bear]

no offence EE

 

[Jerkus]

But D3 is still a dayphase in your example. It's just not one that the town got to control because the Weak Doctor and Kingmaker both got duped by good scumplay and, well, that's just too ****in' bad. Why would you balance against good play? What about the fact that the Doc can stop kills?

Starting to think you're scrumbling

It doesn't balance against good play. It balances against happenstance ****ing town over. Scum have the advantage of knowledge; town have the advantage of numbers. That's the way it goes. If scum plays well, towns numbers don't mean ****. If scum plays like ****, but one town role made one bad call and that means town loses before they can even get their foot in the door of the game, then that's dumb.

Also, your numbers are faulty.

11 town vs. 2 scum

mislynch, NK: 9 vs. 2

mislynch, NK, Weak Doc hits scum: 6 vs. 2

mislynch, NK: 4 vs. 2

Scum gets king'd on D4. Scum wins. A two-man scum team can win as early as D4. That's not lunacy.

Also, get right the **** out of here with you thinking I might actually be scum. You are definitely better than that as town. You're looking for justification to shoot me.

 

[BSP]

Are you positive on not shooting Jerkus MM?

 

[Mastermind]

If scum plays like ****, but one town role made one bad call and that means town loses before they can even get their foot in the door of the game, then that's dumb.

Your example requires two town roles to make a bad call

 

[Jerkus]

Jerkus should die if only because any scum team not involving them would have killed them by now.

That's ridiculous. I can't believe you even said that as if you think it's a legitimate point. So far, scum have killed No Hetero and Gheb. Both of those players are power players. That I'm still here, and may be considered by some to be a heavy-hitter, is a matter of mafia not having enough Day phases to get to all the big names in this game yet.

Plus, it's pretty clear that I haven't earned enough trust with the town for scum to consider me too obv. townie as to not be a viable lynch option.

 

[Mastermind]

And no, BSP, I'm not positive. Ryker is a lot more against it than I am.

But with that said, there's the point that what Jerkus is doing right now is just... of excruciatingly little value for a mafiat. I mean unless he's on a two-man scumteam himself....... but, then, what? There are still enough people that are more sensible to pursue. And I just don't know if I see see scum Circus double-bluffing me like that.

 

[Jerkus]

Your example requires two town roles to make a bad call

Yes. What's your point? You account for the worst case scenario. Town have to be able to make mistakes. It's not just town roles making bad calls because they stupidly picked scum. It's town roles making bad calls because they targeted someone based on very little information, and the role happened to be scum.

I stand by what I said. A 3-man scum team could have won this game by the time D3 started in the worst case scenario. I do not believe that town would be required to find scum within 2 Days with no Night Actions to help them facilitate that.

 

[Death Bear]

a doc facilitates it though

 

[Mastermind]

Yes. What's your point?

That you tried to say it's as simple as one town role making one bad call, when in reality it's two roles that both have to make a bad call? Bad calls which are mathematically unlikely, I might add.

 

[Jerkus]

a doc facilitates it though

It doesn't matter. A doctor on its own can't be counted as if it cancels out other potential deaths because it may (and is very likely to) fail. You can't make a game with a Vigilante in it and then just throw a Doctor into the game too and call that balanced. You have to balance the game assuming that the vig is going to shoot every Night, and could end up being very bad at his job. Town can't get ****ed out of Day phases because Night actions went terribly.

 

[Mastermind]

they weren't a threat until now