Ok, here we go kids hope you're ready for a wall:
Posts 1 and 2 from Kary in short succession.
Throw your weight around. Pressure inactives. Don't
just follow the majority. Take advantage of the power you have in order to try and find scum.
By all means, things like votecounts and waggons will still likely be useful. But don't feel bound by them. There's a different set of rules in place, so you work within those to find scum.
Also you should probably clear your decision to execute someone with 2/3 of your townreads before you do it. But that's common sense. With great power, etc...
Or maybe he should be trying to find scum? And he should be working with the town to do that? And not just doing
whatever he wants?
I mean, you raise an interesting question of political authority here. But I'm gonna say it's pretty obvious to what extent the king
should do something.
Soup/BarDulL looks boring, and I can't believe you guys seriously arguing during the night phase,
Vote: Dabuz
because scum, gonna get my bus on D1
Ok, so right off the bat Kary is voting Dabuz and calling him scum. Is that weird in RVS? No, it's a little aggressive but not too out of the ordinary, it's the way he handles it from here that gets weird. It is noteworthy that he doesn't cite any reason for looking to Dabuz nor any recourse, whereas later Omni will try in the same vein to ask Dabuz "why don't you mind?" which seems like the logical thing. (also note the "we should find scum" message repeated)
JDietz, buddy with me this game. Let's get Dabuz killed. Maybe we can recruit a big shot power player to our cause, perhaps No Hetero. But that's much of a muchness.
The two of us, let's run this town.
This however is strange. We're two posts into the game and Kary is asking me first to buddy him (maybe not so bad), but also to "get Dabuz killed". Kary then brings up that maybe we can get power players to back us up. It should be hyper noted that at this point Dabuz has two posts: one with an RVS vote on Handorin, and the second stating his opinion that the king should run the day how he sees fit (which most of us should be familiar with).
So there's a few logical questions that follows from this, and that's "Why Dabuz?" and by extension "Why do you want him killed already", as well as "Why ask JD?" People get around to asking this pretty fast, before I even get my first post:
@Kary, you should accompany me on my journey to hardbody peeps. I gotta ask ya why you want JD on your team when he hasn't posted yet though. Are you just going to team up with people without reading into them a bit? What's your criterion for teaming up with another player?
Seems fair. But the response is:
Second Vote: BarDulL
Fair point
I don't know to which sentence you're referring. But it's probably not a big deal.
Was it this? No, I'm dead serious in this. Also, I have two votes, so I can vote BarDulL at the same time.
Kary votes Bardull for asking, then reaffirms to Gheb that if he's wondering about the "scum going to get on my bus D1" comment that he's being serious. This is followed by a call for "moar votes on Bardull plz" when he continues to have a dialogue with Soup. So we can see Kary isn't intent on explaining himself and so far is more interested in putting out votes on people. We'll get to why that's uncool in a minute, the trend continues:
Here Deathbear and Bardull start discussing what Kary might be doing, Kary responds with
Throw your weight around. Pressure inactives. Don't
just follow the majority. Take advantage of the power you have in order to try and find scum.
By all means, things like votecounts and waggons will still likely be useful. But don't feel bound by them. There's a different set of rules in place, so you work within those to find scum.
Also you should probably clear your decision to execute someone with 2/3 of your townreads before you do it. But that's common sense. With great power, etc...
Or maybe he should be trying to find scum? And he should be working with the town to do that? And not just doing
whatever he wants?
I mean, you raise an interesting question of political authority here. But I'm gonna say it's pretty obvious to what extent the king
should do something.
Soup/BarDulL looks boring, and I can't believe you guys seriously arguing during the night phase,
Vote: Dabuz
because scum, gonna get my bus on D1
It looks long/stupid, and looks like it's not going to produce any significant tells one way or the other.
It's RVS, you're meant to open up discussion. And I wanted to talk about how I have two votes, which you appear to have overlooked in your votecount
you're trying too hard
but GG
Vote: BarDulL
The problem here is: While Kary is talking about how he wants discussion to open up, he's not actually opening any discussion. He's made it clear it's one of his stated priorities, especially in the first post, but instead of starting a meaningful discussion now that people are talking to him, he continues to make votes and refuse to speak. When you realize that votes
don't actually do anything, and the only way to actually put pressure on someone in this game type is to directly speak to them to try and demonstrate things to the king this and the rest of what follows become scummy actions, clogging the thread with chatter but not actually helping anyone get reads.
Lol alright I'll run with this, what seems to be indicating to you that I'm "trying too hard?"
'I thought it was a reaction test'
'I still think it needs substantiation'
Bardull tries to play ball and start talking to Kary. Kary shuts him off with snark instead. (see: post 1 ideals that aren't attempted to be met)
This continues.
The smell of you trying to cement yourself as town by pushing various avenues too seriously at this, the start of the game.
Or, you're trying too hard.
I don't know and I don't really care right now, he is not on my RVS list of people to needlessly antagonize.
no
why would you want such a thing?
then why point out that it was unsubstantiated
oh wait
GG
'I think you're pretending to be town'
'wow damn this is waaay confusing right here'
wow, yeah, you think you're town so I should totally give up pushing you
and as ever I don't really care how I look as long as we hit scum (see: any game)
but you're scum, elaborating on the case seems boring and unnecessary
Deathbear steps in and asks the pertinent question from way back that was ignored when Bardull asked:
this is where i say: Kary, why did you pick JD.
The response:
why were you taking me seriously in the first place?
actually, wait, I'm bored of talking to you.
because he's my scumbuddy and I want to openly buddy with him so that people don't think we're scum together.
no, wait. what sort of answer are you expecting?
aaaand i'm done
call me when you need a townie
No answer. Leaves the thread instead. Why? (because he has no reason to be doing any of this as town, it's not helping him gain reads it's just putting him as an angry face in the thread pretending to have direction, so instead of answer he leaves)
Dabuz comes in and asks the million dollar question
[
Kary, followup on this. Why would you want me killed at that point in the game?
Now Kary is going to respond to a few different things:
please follow the link to see the questions being responded to, it's important
I'm a doublevoter.
I wanted to see how he responds to that accusation before explaining some of the thought process behind it. I can still go on and do that if I want to, but had I done that already I wouldn't have been able to push a simple reaction.
In my opinion, letting scum know who you're looking at, is not worth the benefit of letting town know who you're looking at. Just assume I'm looking at everyone; if I want you to pay attention to a slot, I'll let you know.
and it was a terrible question
???
Because you're scum?
Now: Kary states here that the intent behind throwing votes at Bardull was to get a read on him (ok). But he never goes on to state
WHAT he got out of Bardull from doing so, which is scummy because it means he could have (and I believe did) do this just for the sake of looking like he cared about a slot enough to call it scum. There's no gain.
He then dodges answering who he's looking at under the pretense that it hurts town. Maybe I'd buy that if we weren't in RVS where we all need information to work with, but as is it looks like a closed scum response.
Then: the best response to Dabuz's question from above: "Because you're scum?". Wow. I'm sure you all know how much that helped us all get a read on Dabuz's slot. After all we all remember this pivotal moment when a dialogue opened up and we gained insight into... oh wait no we all still know jack about Dabuz and even less about Kary's intent because he won't speak to us. Even worse, later Kary will have the gall to claim he never wanted Dabuz dead and was looking for reads (before iirc, flip flopping that stance again and claiming he always wanted Dabuz dead and knew he was scum). I hope some people get what I'm driving at here since I know I'm bad at explanations: But Kary is phoning this whole thing in. It's not RVS, it's stupidity, but what seals the deal is how he later responds to being asked about it yet again more overtly.
Behold: the one post asking Dabuz any questions so far: Dabuz in Pink
After Skimming Kary and Bardull's interactions, looks like Kary just pressured for the sake of getting pressure, doesn't seem like he/ she had any reason to pressure.
that's all you got from that interaction?
do you agree that BarDulL was trying too hard to seem town?
think carefully about your answer.
yes
*thumbsup*
be town, Soup
you should vote for dabuz
That would have been good to see happen, except it's a question in response to Dabuz pointing out he thinks Kary isn't doing his Bardull pressure right. loaded against yet another of the slots Kary is pretending to read: Bardull. Kary finishes this up asking Gheb to vote for Dabuz. We still haven't ever actually heard why.
I come in, asking the questions that seem important that still haven't been answered hoping Kary will respond to the one the first question was directed at (as well as asking NH if he sees something legitimate in Dabuz as well):
What, why Dabuz in particular? I haven't seen him post anything noteworthy yet. And why ask me specifically off the bat before I'm even in the game yet. I know we've been buddy buddy in past games, but this just seems like a weird opening move.
Ok, am I missing something in pre-game that had to do with dabuz? Or is this an RVS vote coincidence No Hetero
I then vote Kary upon starting to catch up with the reading, because he's been doing what I've been pointing out in my writeup so far (rallying on slots for no reason without looking for read opportunities), as well as remarking how I didn't like that he just left when Deathbear asked him a question.
Vote: Kary
I don't know what any of us were specifically looking for, but any answer would have been better than leaving...
Kary responds to the questions people have been asking:
Because he's there and he's easy to pressure. Also this post:
'I'm scum and I really want to know how toDay's going to be run, so i'll ask under the pretense of being co-operative'
Wait, is this the 'why did you pick dietz?' question again?
because, obviously, you haven't posted and yet you have potential to buddy.
but it could have been a number of people; the point is to elicit a reaction from someone.
your vote is weaksauce, you don't scare me
why are you scum? something to do with your role PM I imagine. unless it's fate.
hmm, well this seems a bit defensive. anyhow.
I have described above how one of your opening posts could be construed as fishing for info/fence-sitting/ trying to seem helpful; this combined with your lack of content elsewhere suggests you could be scum.
Of course, I can't be sure, I've never even played with you before.But it seemed reasonable to pressure you and see how you'd react. It's RVS, after all.
d-o-n-e
although you seem to be making a meal out of a mountain
Gambits 101;
#1 What not to gambit
If you seriously can't handle the pressure, proxy your decision to me.
'lurky and suspicious'
have to read past the surface level, takes a bit of time
Now we get some interesting responses. First off: "I'm pressuring Dabuz because it's easy". Best reason I ever heard. Then: cites the post where Dabuz says he thinks the king should do what he thinks, summarizing Dabuz's intent as: "I'm scum and I really want to know how toDays going to be run, so I'll ask under the pretense of being cooperative."
What? Let's look at that closer: this is what Dabuz said:
I'm fine with the king running things however he wants. BSP, if you want to run toDay like a standard D1, go ahead. If you don't want to, I'm also fine with that.
That isn't even a question. Dabuz asked for no information from BSP, simply stated he would be ok with what he did. He did not say something like "BSP how are you going to run today?", but Kary is using this phrase as an extremely weak reason to have been voting for Dabuz and asking other people to join along.
Well twisting people's words isn't cool, but what makes him scum from putting pressure on Dabuz? Once again, this isn't the proper way to put pressure on someone. Even Marshy should be able to tell you that the reason you go hardbody on someone is to put weight behind the questions and attempts to read the person so you can form an opinion of their alignment. Voting alone does not reading make (and in this game, not even pressure since votes don't matter). So now we have Kary both fudging the situation about Dabuz to make his push seem legitimate when it isn't.
He then hand waves the fact he wanted me on board by saying he was looking for reactions and it could have been anyone. Then tells me my vote doesn't scare him (making me think he knows that his votes aren't actually pressure, even if he wanted us to think so)
He rote tells Dabuz "you're scum" again, following up by stating weakly that one of Dabuz's posts
could be construed to have scum intent, which is the reachiest reason I've ever heard. (however I should have demonstrated that even getting that far should have taken a mental jump)
He then claims he's satisfied my asking why he was looking at Dabuz, stating "d-o-n-e" and stating he thinks we're making a big deal out of it. Well we know that isn't remotely true either.
Then he jokingly asks for BSP to proxy to him and says Hando is a a lurker (not much there).
We're still only on page 8
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